Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Thu 09/16/10


Total Messages Posted: 28



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 04:08 AM - Re: Re: Wing education, please advise.. (Dan Yocum)
     2. 04:59 AM - Re: Auxillary Fuel System (tkreiner)
     3. 05:23 AM - Re: Re: Auxillary Fuel System (Ben Charvet)
     4. 06:08 AM - Re: Auxillary Fuel System (kevinpurtee)
     5. 06:55 AM - Re: Re: Auxillary Fuel System (Gary Boothe)
     6. 07:03 AM - Re: Auxillary Fuel System (coxwelljon)
     7. 07:30 AM - Re: Wing education, please advise.. (Bill Church)
     8. 07:48 AM - Re: Re: Wing education, please advise.. (Gary Boothe)
     9. 08:40 AM - Re: Auxillary Fuel System (hvandervoo@aol.com)
    10. 09:12 AM - Re: Auxillary Fuel System (jeff wilson)
    11. 09:17 AM - Re: Auxillary Fuel System (airlion)
    12. 09:24 AM - Re: Auxillary Fuel System (airlion)
    13. 09:51 AM - Re: Auxillary Fuel System (Jack Phillips)
    14. 10:15 AM - Re: Auxillary Fuel System (Ryan Mueller)
    15. 10:53 AM - Re: Re: Wing education, please advise.. (Jim Boyer)
    16. 11:50 AM - of possible interest-- Jack Roush recovering well (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation])
    17. 11:52 AM - Re: Re: Wing education, please advise.. (Gary Boothe)
    18. 11:55 AM - Re: Re: Wing education, please advise.. (Doug Dever)
    19. 12:40 PM - Photo: Axel's Piet at home (Bill Church)
    20. 02:07 PM - Axle Angle (TOM STINEMETZE)
    21. 04:13 PM - Re: Axle Angle (Billy McCaskill)
    22. 04:21 PM - Re: Wing education, please advise.. (Pieti Lowell)
    23. 05:21 PM - lee bottom fly-in (shad bell)
    24. 05:36 PM - Re: Re: Wing education, please advise.. (Doug Dever)
    25. 06:09 PM - Pietenpol still making history today? (Peter Bichier)
    26. 06:48 PM - Re: lee bottom fly-in (Matthew VanDervort)
    27. 09:37 PM - shameless plug off topic - do not archive (TOM MICHELLE BRANT)
    28. 09:38 PM - what I've never seen at Brodhead (TOM MICHELLE BRANT)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 04:08:29 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Wing education, please advise..
    From: Dan Yocum <yocum137@gmail.com>
    Sealing your aileron, and elevator gaps is a Very Good Idea! The plane handles much better. Jack, Mike, and others use piano hinge to get the effect. I'm using strips of Naugahyde and contact cement to perform the same thing. Heck, painters and duct tape work well, too. Just my 2 cents. Dan -- Dan Yocum yocum137@gmail.com "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." On Sep 15, 2010, at 10:46 PM, j_dunavin <j_dunavin@hotmail.com> wrote: >


    Message 2


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    Time: 04:59:00 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Auxillary Fuel System
    From: "tkreiner" <tkreiner@gmail.com>
    Kevin, Have you considered the pressure head requirement to pump fuel the distance from floor or seat to the wing tank? Personally I'd run a simple test to see if the batteries and pump had sufficient power to do the job and exactly how many gallons they would pump prior to exhaustion. Kinda hard to swap batteries at 85 K and 2500ft Just my .02. -------- Tom Kreiner Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312600#312600


    Message 3


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    Time: 05:23:17 AM PST US
    From: Ben Charvet <bencharvet@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Auxillary Fuel System
    If you were to use the boat fuel tank, you could probably do the transfer with the primer bulb. Give you something to do as the scenery went by and some exercise too! Ben On 9/16/2010 7:56 AM, tkreiner wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "tkreiner"<tkreiner@gmail.com> > > Kevin, > > Have you considered the pressure head requirement to pump fuel the distance from floor or seat to the wing tank? > > Personally I'd run a simple test to see if the batteries and pump had sufficient power to do the job and exactly how many gallons they would pump prior to exhaustion. > > Kinda hard to swap batteries at 85 K and 2500ft > > Just my .02. > > -------- > Tom Kreiner > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312600#312600 > >


    Message 4


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    Time: 06:08:40 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Auxillary Fuel System
    From: "kevinpurtee" <kevin.purtee@us.army.mil>
    Thanks for the comments. Particularly like Gardiner's idea:). The total lift will be 4-5 feet. Not sure the $13 double D battery pump's going to do that. Not much lost if it doesn't work, though. I thought about the hand squeeze bulb. I did the calc's and that looks like it will take a LOOOONNNGGG time to work. Also not sure it'll have the power to lift that high. I do have one and will run the experiment. -------- Kevin Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312610#312610


    Message 5


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    Time: 06:55:54 AM PST US
    From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Auxillary Fuel System
    Kevin, I've been traveling the last couple days, and not sure I fully understood your inquiry, but the 601 guys use a little 'facet' pump, supplying positive carb pressure from a low-wing wing tank, that would easily run off your electric system. Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear 20 ribs done -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kevinpurtee Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 6:06 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Auxillary Fuel System <kevin.purtee@us.army.mil> Thanks for the comments. Particularly like Gardiner's idea:). The total lift will be 4-5 feet. Not sure the $13 double D battery pump's going to do that. Not much lost if it doesn't work, though. I thought about the hand squeeze bulb. I did the calc's and that looks like it will take a LOOOONNNGGG time to work. Also not sure it'll have the power to lift that high. I do have one and will run the experiment. -------- Kevin Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312610#312610


    Message 6


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    Time: 07:03:51 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Auxillary Fuel System
    From: "coxwelljon" <coxwelljon@frontiernet.net>
    kevinpurtee wrote: > > - Hoses secured appropriately from can to pump, up and over the wing, then to the fuel tank filler on top of wing, > - Modified gas cap to accept the inlet line. > > > Axel I would add that you should be very careful with your connection to the gas cap. I have heard of engine stoppage and even depletion of fuel out the cap due to improper venting of wing tanks. There is a lot of negative pressure there. You could extend your range by a negative 2 hrs especially if the temporary fuel line came loose. My $0.02 Jon -------- Jon Coxwell GN-1 Builder Recycle and preserve the planet Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312618#312618


    Message 7


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    Time: 07:30:59 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Wing education, please advise..
    From: "Bill Church" <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
    Joe, The "Riblett design" is simply an airfoil, not a whole wing design. You're really on your own to figure out all the little details. My assumption would be that the truss structure of a Riblett rib would mimic the structure shown in the Pietenpol plans, and everything else (e.g. ailerons) would follow suit. Therefore, if the Pietenpol wing benefits from gap sealing, then the Riblett would also benefit in the same manner. The easiest method to seal the aileron gaps is to use a piano hinge, like Dan said. Your summary regarding the Riblett airfoils is basically what is being claimed. As far as I know, Pieti Lowell's is the only flying example of a Riblett airfoil on a Piet (I may be wrong on that, though), and he claims improved performance. Anecdotally, I overheard someone at Brodhead a couple of years ago saying that the Riblett airfoil will provide twice the lift, and double the cruise speed, and cut the stall speed in half... I took ALL of that with a BIG grain of salt. No doubt a different airfoil will result in different performance. Just how much different is the question, and whether it is an improvement is another. It seems that there are quite a few new builders constructing their Piets with Riblett airfoils. So, if and when they get them flying, we'll have some more flying examples to refer to. As it stands now, it is really difficult to tell, since there can be so much difference in performance from one Piet to another, due to all the design changes that builders make, as well as powerplant, propeller and other choices available. Would be really good to have another builder or two do what Lowell did, and fly the exact same aircraft with the two different airfoils, and compare the performances. But that means a LOT of work - most of us have enough challenge just getting one wing built (right, Gary?). In short, either airfoil will fly the plane just fine. If you want "tried and true", stick with the plans. If you want to experiment with possible performance improvements, and are willing to work out more little details on your own, then give the Riblett a go. (the choice of Riblett airfoils is up to you, as there were two suggested by Mr. Riblett as being suitable for the Piet). Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312625#312625


    Message 8


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    Time: 07:48:56 AM PST US
    From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Wing education, please advise..
    Right, Bill! Chris Tracy is just now finishing up the wings, and he and Jim Markle are coming over to visit tonight. I offered to trade Chris a piece of lasagna for his wings...I think he's seriously considering it... Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear 20 ribs done Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:29 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing education, please advise.. Joe, The "Riblett design" is simply an airfoil, not a whole wing design. You're really on your own to figure out all the little details. My assumption would be that the truss structure of a Riblett rib would mimic the structure shown in the Pietenpol plans, and everything else (e.g. ailerons) would follow suit. Therefore, if the Pietenpol wing benefits from gap sealing, then the Riblett would also benefit in the same manner. The easiest method to seal the aileron gaps is to use a piano hinge, like Dan said. Your summary regarding the Riblett airfoils is basically what is being claimed. As far as I know, Pieti Lowell's is the only flying example of a Riblett airfoil on a Piet (I may be wrong on that, though), and he claims improved performance. Anecdotally, I overheard someone at Brodhead a couple of years ago saying that the Riblett airfoil will provide twice the lift, and double the cruise speed, and cut the stall speed in half... I took ALL of that with a BIG grain of salt. No doubt a different airfoil will result in different performance. Just how much different is the question, and whether it is an improvement is another. It seems that there are quite a few new builders constructing their Piets with Riblett airfoils. So, if and when they get them flying, we'll have some more flying examples to refer to. As it stands now, it is really difficult to tell, since there can be so much difference in performance from one Piet to another, due to all the design changes that builders make, as well as powerplant, propeller and other choices available. Would be really good to have another builder or two do what Lowell did, and fly the exact same aircraft with the two different airfoils, and compare the performances. But th! at means a LOT of work - most of us have enough challenge just getting one wing built (right, Gary?). In short, either airfoil will fly the plane just fine. If you want "tried and true", stick with the plans. If you want to experiment with possible performance improvements, and are willing to work out more little details on your own, then give the Riblett a go. (the choice of Riblett airfoils is up to you, as there were two suggested by Mr. Riblett as being suitable for the Piet). Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312625#312625


    Message 9


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    Time: 08:40:43 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Auxillary Fuel System
    From: hvandervoo@aol.com
    Kevin, This $ 13 pump better be spark proof and specially made for gasoline type fuels. Diesel pumps are no good in this application, flash point of diesel is muc h higher than gasoline. Suggest you look into a simple electric booster pump, try Summit racing fo r some product ideas. You will need 12 Volts but small rechargeable batteries are cheap. Hans NX15KV Waller, TX ----- Original Message ---- From: kevinpurtee <kevin.purtee@us.army.mil> Sent: Wed, September 15, 2010 2:51:40 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Auxillary Fuel System mil> I'd like your thoughts on ways to add the redneck Extended Range Fuel Syst em (ERFS) to the airplane. The design I'm currently considering is as follow s: - A 3 to 5 gallon can securely strapped in the front seat, - A small pump driven by two D batteries with a dead-man switch (this pump may not have enough power, but it was only $13 so I felt it worth the experime nt), - Hoses secured appropriately from can to pump, up and over the wing, then to the fuel tank filler on top of wing, - Modified gas cap to accept the inlet line. Assumptions: - No permanent mods to the airplane, - No passengers, - Portable and removable in 30 minutes with hand tools, - Used only on long cross-country flights. We have an outstanding safety culture on this list. If you're concerned about the gas, be advised that I fly with 11 gallons 6" above my head every time I take off. A well-secured auxillary tank with equally well-secured hardwar e and plumbing is acceptable to me. I welcome any suggestions or ideas to do it better. Thanks, Axel -------- Kevin Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312541#312541 ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== ===========


    Message 10


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    Time: 09:12:02 AM PST US
    From: jeff wilson <jlwilsonnn@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Auxillary Fuel System
    Why do all you guys want to extend your range? My bladder won't let me fly long enough to empty the fuse and wing tank. Especially with that steady vi bration. - Jeff Wilson N899WT - Do Not Archive --- On Thu, 9/16/10, hvandervoo@aol.com <hvandervoo@aol.com> wrote: From: hvandervoo@aol.com <hvandervoo@aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auxillary Fuel System Kevin, - This $ 13 pump better be spark proof-and specially made for gasoline type fuels. Diesel pumps are no good in this application, flash point of diesel is much higher than gasoline. Suggest you look into a simple electric booster pump, try Summit racing for some product-ideas. You will need 12 Volts but-small rechargeable batteries are cheap. - Hans - NX15KV Waller, TX - - ----- Original Message ---- From: kevinpurtee <kevin.purtee@us.army.mil> Sent: Wed, September 15, 2010 2:51:40 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Auxillary Fuel System il> I'd like your thoughts on ways to add the redneck Extended Range Fuel Syste m (ERFS) to the airplane.- The design I'm currently considering is as follo ws: - A 3 to 5 gallon can securely strapped in the front seat, - A small pump driven by two D batteries with a dead-man switch (this pump may not have enough power, but it was only $13 so I felt it worth the experimen t), - Hoses secured appropriately from can to pump, up and over the wing, then to the fuel tank filler on top of wing, - Modified gas cap to accept the inlet line. Assumptions: - No permanent mods to the airplane, - No passengers, - Portable and removable in 30 minutes with hand tools, - Used only on long cross-country flights. We have an outstanding safety culture on this list.- If you're concerned about the gas, be advised that I fly with 11 gallons 6" above my head every time I take off.- A well-secured auxillary tank with equally well-secured hardwa re and plumbing is acceptable to me. I welcome any suggestions or ideas to do it better. Thanks, Axel -------- Kevin Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312541#312541 l-List Email Forum - tenpol-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-L ist sp;-- - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - =_blank>http://forums.matronics.com sp; - List Contribution Web Site - sp;----------------- -Matt Dralle, List A dmin. target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A=0A=0A


    Message 11


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    Time: 09:17:24 AM PST US
    From: airlion <airlion@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: Auxillary Fuel System
    I have 20.5 gallons in my center section wing tank and don't need any more. But if you do not have a wide center section why not go the tiger moth way and put one on top. Gravity feed works great. I had a header tank at first and could not get enough head pressure to the carb. Gardiner ________________________________ From: "hvandervoo@aol.com" <hvandervoo@aol.com> Sent: Thu, September 16, 2010 11:17:32 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auxillary Fuel System Kevin, This $ 13 pump better be spark proof and specially made for gasoline type fuels. Diesel pumps are no good in this application, flash point of diesel is much higher than gasoline. Suggest you look into a simple electric booster pump, try Summit racing for some product ideas. You will need 12 Volts but small rechargeable batteries are cheap. Hans NX15KV Waller, TX ----- Original Message ---- From: kevinpurtee <kevin.purtee@us.army.mil> Sent: Wed, September 15, 2010 2:51:40 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Auxillary Fuel System I'd like your thoughts on ways to add the redneck Extended Range Fuel System (ERFS) to the airplane. The design I'm currently considering is as follows: - A 3 to 5 gallon can securely strapped in the front seat, - A small pump driven by two D batteries with a dead-man switch (this pump may not have enough power, but it was only $13 so I felt it worth the experiment), - Hoses secured appropriately from can to pump, up and over the wing, then to the fuel tank filler on top of wing, - Modified gas cap to accept the inlet line. Assumptions: - No permanent mods to the airplane, - No passengers, - Portable and removable in 30 minutes with hand tools, - Used only on long cross-country flights. We have an outstanding safety culture on this list. If you're concerned about the gas, be advised that I fly with 11 gallons 6" above my head every time I take off. A well-secured auxillary tank with equally well-secured hardware and plumbing is acceptable to me. I welcome any suggestions or ideas to do it better. Thanks, Axel -------- Kevin Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312541#312541 =================================== l-List Email Forum - tenpol-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List =================================== sp; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - =_blank>http://forums.matronics.com =================================== sp; - List Contribution Web Site - sp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ===================================


    Message 12


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    Time: 09:24:19 AM PST US
    From: airlion <airlion@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: Auxillary Fuel System
    ________________________________ From: airlion <airlion@bellsouth.net> Sent: Thu, September 16, 2010 12:14:24 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auxillary Fuel System I have 20.5 gallons in my center section wing tank and don't need any more. But if you do not have a wide center section why not go the tiger moth way and put one on top. Gravity feed works great. I had a header tank at first and could not get enough head pressure to the carb. Gardiner ________________________________ From: "hvandervoo@aol.com" <hvandervoo@aol.com> Sent: Thu, September 16, 2010 11:17:32 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auxillary Fuel System Kevin, This $ 13 pump better be spark proof and specially made for gasoline type fuels. Diesel pumps are no good in this application, flash point of diesel is much higher than gasoline. Suggest you look into a simple electric booster pump, try Summit racing for some product ideas. You will need 12 Volts but small rechargeable batteries are cheap. Hans NX15KV Waller, TX ----- Original Message ---- From: kevinpurtee <kevin.purtee@us.army.mil> Sent: Wed, September 15, 2010 2:51:40 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Auxillary Fuel System I'd like your thoughts on ways to add the redneck Extended Range Fuel System (ERFS) to the airplane. The design I'm currently considering is as follows: - A 3 to 5 gallon can securely strapped in the front seat, - A small pump driven by two D batteries with a dead-man switch (this pump may not have enough power, but it was only $13 so I felt it worth the experiment), - Hoses secured appropriately from can to pump, up and over the wing, then to the fuel tank filler on top of wing, - Modified gas cap to accept the inlet line. Assumptions: - No permanent mods to the airplane, - No passengers, - Portable and removable in 30 minutes with hand tools, - Used only on long cross-country flights. We have an outstanding safety culture on this list. If you're concerned about the gas, be advised that I fly with 11 gallons 6" above my head every time I take off. A well-secured auxillary tank with equally well-secured hardware and plumbing is acceptable to me. I welcome any suggestions or ideas to do it better. Thanks, Axel -------- Kevin Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312541#312541 =================================== l-List Email Forum - tenpol-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List =================================== sp; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - =_blank>http://forums.matronics.com =================================== sp; - List Contribution Web Site - sp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ===================================


    Message 13


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    Time: 09:51:48 AM PST US
    From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Auxillary Fuel System
    Here's a good example of why more range is better: Last week I flew my Pietenpol from Smith Mountain Lake Virginia to Culpepper Virginia (119 nautical miles). On the trip there, I had a nice tailwind - made it in 1 hour and 35 minutes, for an average speed of 75 knots or 86 mph. Not bad for a Pietenpol. On the way home the next day, I paid for it. Winds were about the same as the day before and the 119 nm trip took me 2 hours and 35 minutes, an average of 46 knots. My tank holds 15.2 gallons and my A65 burns 4.5 gph, so I have available fuel for 3 hours and 20 minutes of flying. I set 3 hours as my limit and try to never be aloft more than 2.5 hours so I have a 30 minute reserve (plus a little bit more for climbing, which I had to do that day to get over the mountains around Charlottesville). I carefully monitored the fuel level and the clock, as well as the GPS. I decided if I were not within 30 minutes of Smith Mountain Lake after 2 hours of flying I would land at Lynchburg and refuel. The primary reason I did not want to land short for fuel was that the surface winds were 22 knots with gusts over 30 knots and were crosswind to most of the runways in the region. I did not want to have to land in that wind more than once. Fortunately, by the time I got to Lynchburg (22 nm from Smith Mountain Lake), the winds had abated a bit and my groundspeed began to creep upwards (at one point the GPS was telling me I was making a whopping 33 knots) to 55 knots. I knew then that I could safely make it home. As a further bonus, by the time I finally got to Smith Mountain Lake, the winds had dropped to insignificant levels and I had no problems with the landing. Had I not carried at least 3 hours of fuel I would have been forced to make a fuel stop when the winds were strong enough to make it very interesting. The only time you can have too much fuel is when you are trying to make a short takeoff, or if you are on fire. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jeff wilson Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 12:10 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auxillary Fuel System Why do all you guys want to extend your range? My bladder won't let me fly long enough to empty the fuse and wing tank. Especially with that steady vibration. Jeff Wilson N899WT Do Not Archive --- On Thu, 9/16/10, hvandervoo@aol.com <hvandervoo@aol.com> wrote: From: hvandervoo@aol.com <hvandervoo@aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auxillary Fuel System Kevin, This $ 13 pump better be spark proof and specially made for gasoline type fuels. Diesel pumps are no good in this application, flash point of diesel is much higher than gasoline. Suggest you look into a simple electric booster pump, try Summit racing for some product ideas. You will need 12 Volts but small rechargeable batteries are cheap. Hans NX15KV Waller, TX ----- Original Message ---- From: kevinpurtee <kevin.purtee@us.army.mil <http://us.mc510.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kevin.purtee@us.army.mil> > <http://us.mc510.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pietenpol-list@matronics.com> Sent: Wed, September 15, 2010 2:51:40 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Auxillary Fuel System <kevin.purtee@us.army.mil <http://us.mc510.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kevin.purtee@us.army.mil> > I'd like your thoughts on ways to add the redneck Extended Range Fuel System (ERFS) to the airplane. The design I'm currently considering is as follows: - A 3 to 5 gallon can securely strapped in the front seat, - A small pump driven by two D batteries with a dead-man switch (this pump may not have enough power, but it was only $13 so I felt it worth the experiment), - Hoses secured appropriately from can to pump, up and over the wing, then to the fuel tank filler on top of wing, - Modified gas cap to accept the inlet line. Assumptions: - No permanent mods to the airplane, - No passengers, - Portable and removable in 30 minutes with hand tools, - Used only on long cross-country flights. We have an outstanding safety culture on this list. If you're concerned about the gas, be advised that I fly with 11 gallons 6" above my head every time I take off. A well-secured auxillary tank with equally well-secured hardware and plumbing is acceptable to me. I welcome any suggestions or ideas to do it better. Thanks, Axel -------- Kevin Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312541#312541 ========== l-List Email Forum - tenpol-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ========== sp; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - =_blank>http://forums.matronics.com =================================== sp; - List Contribution Web Site - sp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== " rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution


    Message 14


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    Time: 10:15:49 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Auxillary Fuel System
    From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com>
    Hi Kevin, I know you are looking at easy/simple and as safe as possible....but just out of curiosity what do you have going on under the sheet metal between the firewall and front panel? Coils, battery, etc? Empty space? If you are only looking at only a 3 to 5 gallon tank maybe it would be worth the time to install a small header tank properly plumbed into the system. You get the extra range, still retain the ability to carry a passenger, should be able to get away without a pump, and it would be a bit more safe than strapping a can in the front seat. Just thinking.... Ryan On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 1:51 PM, kevinpurtee <kevin.purtee@us.army.mil>wrote: > kevin.purtee@us.army.mil> > > I'd like your thoughts on ways to add the redneck Extended Range Fuel > System (ERFS) to the airplane.<snip>


    Message 15


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    Time: 10:53:32 AM PST US
    From: Jim Boyer <boyerjrb@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Wing education, please advise..
    How big a piece of Lasagna are we talking about here? Might be able to make a trade for ribs if its big enough. Jim B. Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5@comcast.net> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:47:01 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing education, please advise.. Right, Bill! Chris Tracy is just now finishing up the wings, and he and Jim Markle are coming over to visit tonight. I offered to trade Chris a piece of lasagna for his wings...I think he's seriously considering it... Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear 20 ribs done Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:29 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing education, please advise.. Joe, The "Riblett design" is simply an airfoil, not a whole wing design. You're really on your own to figure out all the little details. My assumption would be that the truss structure of a Riblett rib would mimic the structure shown in the Pietenpol plans, and everything else (e.g. ailerons) would follow suit. Therefore, if the Pietenpol wing benefits from gap sealing, then the Riblett would also benefit in the same manner. The easiest method to seal the aileron gaps is to use a piano hinge, like Dan said. Your summary regarding the Riblett airfoils is basically what is being claimed. As far as I know, Pieti Lowell's is the only flying example of a Riblett airfoil on a Piet (I may be wrong on that, though), and he claims improved performance. Anecdotally, I overheard someone at Brodhead a couple of years ago saying that the Riblett airfoil will provide twice the lift, and double the cruise speed, and cut the stall speed in half... I took ALL of that with a BIG grain of salt. No doubt a different airfoil will result in different performance. Just how much different is the question, and whether it is an improvement is another. It seems that there are quite a few new builders constructing their Piets with Riblett airfoils. So, if and when they get them flying, we'll have some more flying examples to refer to. As it stands now, it is really difficult to tell, since there can be so much difference in performance from one Piet to another, due to all the design changes that builders make, as well as powerplant, propeller and other choices available. Would be really good to have another builder or two do what Lowell did, and fly the exact same aircraft with the two different airfoils, and compare the performances. But th! at means a LOT of work - most of us have enough challenge just getting one wing built (right, Gary?). In short, either airfoil will fly the plane just fine. If you want "tried and true", stick with the plans. If you want to experiment with possible performance improvements, and are willing to work out more little details on your own, then give the Riblett a go. (the choice of Riblett airfoils is up to you, as there were two suggested by Mr. Riblett as being suitable for the Piet). Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312625#312625


    Message 16


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    Time: 11:50:13 AM PST US
    From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
    Subject: of possible interest-- Jack Roush recovering well
    do not archive http://www.nascar.com/2010/news/headlines/cup/09/16/jack-roush-up-to-speed/ index.html


    Message 17


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    Time: 11:52:43 AM PST US
    From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Wing education, please advise..
    How big does it need to be? I mean...let's talk... How's the back doing? Let me know if you need some better drugs...I'm thinking outside the box here for my retirement... Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear 20 ribs done Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Boyer Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 10:51 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing education, please advise.. How big a piece of Lasagna are we talking about here? Might be able to make a trade for ribs if its big enough. Jim B. Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5@comcast.net> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:47:01 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing education, please advise.. Right, Bill! Chris Tracy is just now finishing up the wings, and he and Jim Markle are coming over to visit tonight. I offered to trade Chris a piece of lasagna for his wings...I think he's seriously considering it... Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear 20 ribs done Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:29 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing education, please advise.. Joe, The "Riblett design" is simply an airfoil, not a whole wing design. You're really on your own to figure out all the little details. My assumption would be that the truss structure of a Riblett rib would mimic the structure shown in the Pietenpol plans, and everything else (e.g. ailerons) would follow suit. Therefore, if the Pietenpol wing benefits from gap sealing, then the Riblett would also benefit in the same manner. The easiest method to seal the aileron gaps is to use a piano hinge, like Dan said. Your summary regarding the Riblett airfoils is basically what is being claimed. As far as I know, Pieti Lowell's is the only flying example of a Riblett airfoil on a Piet (I may be wrong on that, though), and he claims improved performance. Anecdotally, I overheard someone at Brodhead a couple of years ago saying that the Riblett airfoil will provide twice the lift, and double the cruise speed, and cut the stall speed in half... I took ALL of that with a BIG grain of salt. No doubt a different airfoil will result in different performance. Just how much different is the question, and whether it is an improvement is another. It seems that there are quite a few new builders constructing their Piets with Riblett airfoils. So, if and when they get them flying, we'll have some more flying examples to refer to. As it stands now, it is really difficult to tell, since there can be so much difference in performance from one Piet to another, due to all the design changes that builders make, as well as powerplant, propeller and other choices available. Would be really good to have another builder or two do what Lowell did, and fly the exact same aircraft with the two different airfoils, and compare the performances. But th! at means a LOT of work - most of us have enough challenge just getting one wing built (right, Gary?). In short, either airfoil will fly the plane just fine. If you want "tried and true", stick with the plans. If you want to experiment with possible performance improvements, and are willing to work out more little details on your own, then give the Riblett a go. (the choice of Riblett airfoils is up to you, as there were two suggested by Mr. Riblett as being suitable for the Piet). Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312625#312625


    Message 18


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    Time: 11:55:05 AM PST US
    From: Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Wing education, please advise..
    The problem I see is not the airfoil. This was discussed in depth about a year ago. I brought up the idea of putting a piet on floats. It does not have enough wing area. I have a fair amout of short wing Piper experience on floats and they make good speed boats. If you compare a similar weight airplane=2C the J-3 cub. The cub climbs better and is a good performer on floats with 65hp. It certainly doesn't have a superior airfoil I don't bel ieve. But it does have 178sqft of wing area compaired to the piet's 145 or so. Incidentally the tripacer is a good performer on floats if you extend the wing. You must extend the fuse. also. I believe to compensate for mo re pitching moment. (Someone correct me on this if I'm wrong.) I feel pret ty comfortable doing the loading analysis for the longer wing=2C but not th e aerodynamics. I personally think any improvement with a new airfoil woul d be marginal. (Yes I have my armor on for that statement) Lowell also has more hp as well as the Riblett airfoil. SO=2C if you have to extend the f use as well as the wing=2C then you don't have a Pietenpol any more. I say if you want more permance...get more horse power. To quote my dad=2C "You can never have to much horse power." Hence the reason for 220hp in o ur 172. Didn't cruise much faster than a stock 172. But=2C it would lift off at 45mph and climb 2000ft/min. far more performance than changing the airfoil. Just my long winded .02 Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing education=2C please advise.. > From: billspiet@sympatico.ca > Date: Thu=2C 16 Sep 2010 07:28:33 -0700 > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > ca> > > Joe=2C > > The "Riblett design" is simply an airfoil=2C not a whole wing design. You 're really on your own to figure out all the little details. > My assumption would be that the truss structure of a Riblett rib would mi mic the structure shown in the Pietenpol plans=2C and everything else (e.g. ailerons) would follow suit. Therefore=2C if the Pietenpol wing benefits f rom gap sealing=2C then the Riblett would also benefit in the same manner. The easiest method to seal the aileron gaps is to use a piano hinge=2C like Dan said. > > Your summary regarding the Riblett airfoils is basically what is being cl aimed. As far as I know=2C Pieti Lowell's is the only flying example of a R iblett airfoil on a Piet (I may be wrong on that=2C though)=2C and he claim s improved performance. > > Anecdotally=2C I overheard someone at Brodhead a couple of years ago sayi ng that the Riblett airfoil will provide twice the lift=2C and double the c ruise speed=2C and cut the stall speed in half... I took ALL of that with a BIG grain of salt. No doubt a different airfoil will result in different p erformance. Just how much different is the question=2C and whether it is an improvement is another. It seems that there are quite a few new builders c onstructing their Piets with Riblett airfoils. So=2C if and when they get t hem flying=2C we'll have some more flying examples to refer to. As it stand s now=2C it is really difficult to tell=2C since there can be so much diffe rence in performance from one Piet to another=2C due to all the design chan ges that builders make=2C as well as powerplant=2C propeller and other choi ces available. Would be really good to have another builder or two do what Lowell did=2C and fly the exact same aircraft with the two different airfoi ls=2C and compare the performances. But th! > at means a LOT of work - most of us have enough challenge just getting on e wing built (right=2C Gary?). > > In short=2C either airfoil will fly the plane just fine. If you want "tri ed and true"=2C stick with the plans. If you want to experiment with possib le performance improvements=2C and are willing to work out more little deta ils on your own=2C then give the Riblett a go. (the choice of Riblett airfo ils is up to you=2C as there were two suggested by Mr. Riblett as being sui table for the Piet). > > Bill C. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312625#312625 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > >


    Message 19


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    Time: 12:40:29 PM PST US
    Subject: Photo: Axel's Piet at home
    From: "Bill Church" <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
    Stumbled across this nice shot of Kevin's Piet, sitting in the hangar, with the cowling off, apparently about a month prior to Brodhead. http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/522835L.html Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312673#312673


    Message 20


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    Time: 02:07:19 PM PST US
    From: "TOM STINEMETZE" <TOMS@mcpcity.com>
    Subject: Axle Angle
    Question concerning axle alignment on a split axle gear. (Not a split Axel which is a different situation altogether.) The plans for the split axle gear show the use of aircraft style balloon tires. Those plans indicate the axles should be set with a 2 angle from vertical when the bungees are fully extended. I am using 19" motorcycle tires and die springs instead of the balloons and bungees. Is the 2 angle still appropriate? Is any toe-in or toe-out desirable? I'm almost ready to weld these up so any useful information would be very welcome. Tom Stinemetze N328X


    Message 21


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    Time: 04:13:57 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Axle Angle
    From: "Billy McCaskill" <billmz@cox.net>
    Going strictly by intuition and not from experience, I would say that the 2 degree camber angle would be fine, but I don't think that you want any toe-in or toe-out between the wheels. From what I've read, this is where the Jenny style wood gear has a slight advantage in that it can not have any toe-in or toe-out unless the axle has taken a severe impact and it's bent. However, in this case something else in your airplane is probably bent or broken too, rendering the toe-in or toe-out as something of secondary importance at that point... -------- Billy McCaskill Urbana, IL tail section almost done, starting on ribs soon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312692#312692


    Message 22


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    Time: 04:21:09 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Wing education, please advise..
    From: "Pieti Lowell" <Lowellcfrank@yahoo.com>
    I have used a product that the sailors have used for years to give excellent adhesion and sealing qualities, and ease of application, called Rip Stop, 2" wide applied from below with elevator up. Riblett full length wings will be a surprise to me, if the next wing flown does not impress it's new owner. Pieti Lowell Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312693#312693


    Message 23


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    Time: 05:21:48 PM PST US
    From: shad bell <aviatorbell@yahoo.com>
    Subject: lee bottom fly-in
    Hello group, Just checking to see if anyone wants to meet up on friday the 24th and fly down to lee bottom's fly-in.- I will plan on being in southw estern ohio area (Dayton, Cincinatti) around 12-1 pm friday the 24th.- I might have a Champ, and Chief in tow.- Matt Vandervort, are you planning on going down?- I was also wondering if anyone had Steve Emo's contact in fo (out of New Carlisle).- And can someone on the list reply to this e-ma il, my computer is not working right, and not sure if mail is going out. - - Shad=0A=0A=0A


    Message 24


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    Time: 05:36:04 PM PST US
    From: Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Wing education, please advise..
    Lowell=2C I'm suprised you didn't hit me harder. I was in full armor. I don't know any of you except through this list so I don't hit very hard e ither. I just think your hp makes more difference (I will be looking you u p when I get to the Model A stage) than the airfoil. The NACA2412? on the 172 is not a high lift airfoil but=2C you can put a leading edge cuff on i t and droop the ailerons turning it into a high lift airfoil and I'll just add 33% more hp and I'll win every time. Now... I always wondered what do ing both would do. May turn into a cheap fast helicopter! Not stirring the pot too much. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing education=2C please advise.. > From: Lowellcfrank@yahoo.com > Date: Thu=2C 16 Sep 2010 16:18:45 -0700 > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > com> > > I have used a product that the sailors have used for years to give excell ent adhesion and sealing qualities=2C and ease of application=2C called Rip Stop=2C 2" wide applied from below with elevator up. > Riblett full length wings will be a surprise to me=2C if the next wing fl own does not impress it's new owner. > Pieti Lowell > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312693#312693 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > >


    Message 25


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    Time: 06:09:22 PM PST US
    Subject: Pietenpol still making history today?
    From: "Peter Bichier" <pbichie@UTNet.UToledo.Edu>
    Hello All, I have posted this a couple of weeks ago, and have not received any comments. The topic shows as viewed 70 times, is this silence because no one knows? Meanwhile we are going to claim we are the first ones... Here is our formal letter to the EAA and below my original question to this group. From: William J. David [mailto:wjdavid582@embarqmail.com] Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 10:26 AM Cc: taildragger@go-concepts.com; Andre Abreu; Peter Bichier; Martha Lunken; Joe Deaton; Richard Martin Subject: Ratings To Whom it may concern, On the morning of August 14, at Red Stewart Airport in Waynesville, Ohio, Andre Abreu and Peter Bichier of the Toledo Buzzards Light Sport Aircraft Club (TBLSACI) successfully completed their check rides for a Sport Pilot Certificate in a Pietenpol Aircamper N6186L. The evaluations were given by Martha Lunken and TBLSACI is based out of Toledo Executive Airport, TDZ, formerly Toledo Metcalf. After a little investigation we believe that they are the first persons to do so in a Pietenpol and are laying claim to this feat at this time. Anyone disputing this should contact me with evidence that shows otherwise. Other points of interest on these two guys are that they have never touched a starter button, they hand prop. They have never flown anything with a nose wheel, and they don't even know how to spell GPS let alone use one. Peter is an Ornithologist and researcher, and Andy Is a mechanical engineer for the automobile industry. William J. David President TBLSACI 20526 Caris Road Bowling Green, Ohio 43402 419-494-5843 wjdavid582@embarqmail.com Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:33 am Post subject: Flying on Labor Day? Gents, Ladies? I guess I'll join the old? or new! tradition to fly the Piet on Labor Day. Good to read some of the postings! I'm new, but 'me gusta volar el Pietenpol' (that's the only Spanish I was able to teach to my great instructor who taught me how to fly the Piet; "I like to Fly the Piet.") So SERIOUSLY to the knowledge of this group, have ANY one, in the HISTORY of the Pietenpol been checked out ie have done their checkride on the Piet to get their ticket? I guess Piet himself probably just taught himself how to fly, but any one else? on a 'formal' flight? Hope you can share what you know about it or what's your guesses. We are based in TDZ (Toledo, OH) and we are about a gang of 5 flying the Piet and for some of us it's the only plane we've ever flown. I'd love to fly to Foggy Bottom, I just flew to 40I (Red Stewart 215 miles if you can fly in a straight line) the old fashion way (few hours in my belt flying it alone, no radios, no GPS, just a sectional) what a blast! hope to read some more, Peter Bichier A blosoming Pietenpol pilot -------- 560 Dreamer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312701#312701


    Message 26


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    Time: 06:48:39 PM PST US
    From: Matthew VanDervort <matthew.vandervort@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: lee bottom fly-in
    Shad, Wish I was going! But the tcraft is acting up and haven't had time to go look at it yet :( I will call a buddy of mine tomorow and see if he has ste ve's number for ya thou. If ya stop in new Carlisle let me know and I'll try and run down for a minute! I'm about 20 minutes drive from there and 5 fro W aco field. I'll let ya know tomorrow if I find his info Sent from my iPhone On Sep 16, 2010, at 8:18 PM, shad bell <aviatorbell@yahoo.com> wrote: > Hello group, Just checking to see if anyone wants to meet up on friday the 24th and fly down to lee bottom's fly-in. I will plan on being in southwes tern ohio area (Dayton, Cincinatti) around 12-1 pm friday the 24th. I might have a Champ, and Chief in tow. Matt Vandervort, are you planning on going down? I was also wondering if anyone had Steve Emo's contact info (out of N ew Carlisle). And can someone on the list reply to this e-mail, my computer is not working right, and not sure if mail is going out. > > > Shad > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= >


    Message 27


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    Time: 09:37:42 PM PST US
    From: TOM MICHELLE BRANT <tmbrant@msn.com>
    Subject: shameless plug off topic - do not archive
    All=2C This is totally off topic but I wanted to send it out anyway - hopefully I' m not breaking some rule or offending anyone... My mother recently died of pancreatic cancer and I've joined an organizatio n to raise money for research and awareness by riding bicycle. This Sunday is my ride and I've already raised well over $1000. If you're interested in helping out=2C please see my website and learn more. You can read up on the organization and their methods / efforts as well. Beyond your finance s=2C we always welcome your prayers. Thank you so much for your considerati on. http://pancan.kintera.org/purpleridetwincities10/tombrant Tom Brant


    Message 28


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    Time: 09:38:23 PM PST US
    From: TOM MICHELLE BRANT <tmbrant@msn.com>
    Subject: what I've never seen at Brodhead
    In this day and age=2C I'm so thankful there's a place you can go and see c hildren and adults getting an airplane ride - for free - without signing a waiver. I've never seen a waiver or liability release statement signed at Brodhead but I guess that's why the FAA has us put "Experimental" on the en trance to the airplane isn't it. Tom B.




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