Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:47 AM - Re: cables (VanDy)
2. 04:00 AM - Re: cables (VanDy)
3. 04:30 AM - Re: Re: cables (Jack Phillips)
4. 05:19 AM - BIG problems-Model A with dual mags (Lawrence Williams)
5. 05:30 AM - Re: BIG problems-Model A with dual mags (helspersew@aol.com)
6. 05:34 AM - Re: BIG problems-Model A with dual mags (Harvey Rule)
7. 06:32 AM - Re: BIG problems-Model A with dual mags (Pieti Lowell)
8. 06:45 AM - Re: cables (kevinpurtee)
9. 07:23 AM - Re: BIG problems- Model A wth dual mags (899PM)
10. 08:03 AM - Re: Those that have, and those that will... (Dan Yocum)
11. 08:54 AM - Re: Those that have, and those that will... (Gary Boothe)
12. 09:00 AM - Re: Those that have, and those that will... (Perry Rhoads)
13. 09:42 AM - Re: Those that have, and those that will... (Jack Phillips)
14. 01:10 PM - Re: Re: cables (Gene Rambo)
15. 02:35 PM - outstanding interview with Greg Cardinal at EAA 09 about his and Dale's Pietenpol ! (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation])
16. 02:39 PM - Re: Those that have, and those that will... (tkreiner)
17. 03:02 PM - Re: Those that have, and those that will... (airlion)
18. 03:56 PM - Re: Shad flying back home... (shad bell)
19. 04:21 PM - charge (skellytown flyer)
20. 04:47 PM - Re: Those that have, and those that will... (Dangerous Dave)
21. 05:14 PM - Re: charge (jeff wilson)
22. 05:34 PM - Re: outstanding interview with Greg Cardinal at EAA 09 about his and Dale's Pietenpol ! (Greg Cardinal)
23. 05:48 PM - Re: charge (skellytown flyer)
24. 09:05 PM - Re: cables (Piep)
25. 10:32 PM - Re: Those that have, and those that will... (Billy McCaskill)
26. 11:03 PM - Official Pietenpol-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
27. 11:05 PM - Official Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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Charlie,
sounds like we are in the same boat!! Where are you located? Im near dayton
ohio.
--------
www.vansavition.com follow my Piet rebuild there!
almost dissasembled, getting ready to order all AN hardware and SS cable
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314299#314299
Message 2
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Kip,
Your post about jury struts really made me wonder... My Piet has the cross
cables between the struts, and going left to right, (in front of both cockpits)
but no Jury stuts. It has well over 500+ hours on it, and the only issues
it had were not related to rigging. im not going to mention what engine is in
it, because i know the can of worms that opens!! Might I ask why you inquired
about jury struts! Im always willing to learn!!
Thanks for all the replys!!
--------
www.vansavition.com follow my Piet rebuild there!
almost dissasembled, getting ready to order all AN hardware and SS cable
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314300#314300
Message 3
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Charlie,
You can buy cable tensiometers, but they are expensive and unnecessary.
Just tighten the cables until all four are a little more than snug and they
all make approximately the same sound when plucked. You don't want them
terribly tight - they don't need to go "Peeeng" when plucked. Just a nice
low "Thmmmm", but they should all make about the same sound.
These cables actually control the alignment of the wing to the centerline of
the airplane. To set the initial tension, pick either the forward pair (at
the fuselage) or the rear pair and tighten them to a little more than snug.
Then use a metal tape measure and measure the distance from the tailpost to
each wingtip. Each distance should be the same, within +/- 1/4". If the
distances are off, adjust the tension in the flying wires until the wing is
square with the fuselage. Then tighten the other pair and re-measure the
tailpost to wingtip distance, both sides. Adjust tensions as necessary.
Washout is set differently. It is controlled by the length of the rear lift
struts and depending on your strut design may or may not be easily
adjustable. I have a small bit of washout in mine and the stall
characteristics are good. As far as I know I have not flown a Pietenpol
without washout (Ryan, does yours have washout or not?) but I suspect it
would be fine without it.
Good luck!
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Piep
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 12:25 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: cables
I am new to the forum and in the process of rebuilding a Pietenpol that was
stored for the last 10 years. Replacing the cables on the lift struts and
trying to find out the correct tension for these cables as well as the
cables on the cabanes and the tail brace wires. Nothing listed in the
plans. Does anyone have this info or other info on setting the wash in/
wash out on the wing?
Thanks,
Charlie
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314290#314290
Message 4
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| Subject: | BIG problems-Model A with dual mags |
Dan-
I am closing in on wrapping up my "A" rebuild and will be most willing to help
with any tid-bits that I have picked up. I still think the "A" is the way to go
after 8 years of flying behind one. Mine has never missed a beat, always started
and helped me to avoid the dreaded "Aardvark nose" syndrome that seems to be
prevalent on Air Campers with lighter engines (or heavier pilots!).
I fell for the local A&P drivel about low compression numbers and tore mine down
for a quick valve grind.......one thing led to another and the whole thing was
instantly transformed into a pile of pieces. While it's true that some things
got spiffed up a bit, I am convinced that the old engine would have gone another
8+ years just as it was.
There is wa-a-a-ay too much second-guessing both Mr. Ford and Mr. Pietenpol on
this list.( Something about a silk purse comes to mind here). So, clean yours
out, put it back together like Henry told us to without all those futuristical
doo-dads, and go fly!
Larry Williams xcg, xcmr, epp, ama, lds,aopa, eaa, nsra, etc.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: BIG problems-Model A with dual mags |
Larry,
I have been contemplating all options, and yours is one that I am consider
ing. Thanks.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Williams <lnawms@yahoo.com>
Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2010 7:14 am
Subject: Pietenpol-List: BIG problems-Model A with dual mags
Dan-
I am closing in on wrapping up my "A" rebuild and will be most willing to
help with any tid-bits that I have picked up. I still think the "A" is th
e way to go after 8 years of flying behind one. Mine has never missed a be
at, always started and helped me to avoid the dreaded "Aardvark nose" synd
rome that seems to be prevalent on Air Campers with lighter engines (or he
avier pilots!).
I fell for the local A&P drivel about low compression numbers and tore min
e down for a quick valve grind.......one thing led to another and the whol
e thing was instantly transformed into a pile of pieces. While it's true
that some things got spiffed up a bit, I am convinced that the old engine
would have gone another 8+ years just as it was.
There is wa-a-a-ay too much second-guessing both Mr. Ford and Mr. Pietenpo
l on this list.( Something about a silk purse comes to mind here). So, cle
an yours out, put it back together like Henry told us to without all those
futuristical doo-dads, and go fly!
Larry Williams xcg, xcmr, epp, ama, lds,aopa, eaa, nsra, etc.
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Message 6
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| Subject: | BIG problems-Model A with dual mags |
Those were simpler times=2Cnot the engines we have now with all the sensors
on it and they are so compact.They are very difficult if not impossible to
work on.Plugs are sealed etc.
Give me the good old days when it comes to engines BUT and here is the fly
in the ointment =2Cthere is a movement afoot to have all of us with our old
clunky reliable engines put out of action.There are people out there who s
ay we are making our world dirty with these things.I know=2CI know the Chin
ese are pumping out more noxious gases than anyone else on earth but your l
ittle engine is more dangerous according to these folk.I know what your th
inking=2Cwhat a lot of bull and I agree with you.Those A's are the greatest
=2CI wish I could afford to put one on my GN-1.I don't think there is a GN-
1 out there with one on it if I'm correct.Now there would be a contradictio
n in terms eh!
do not archive
From: lnawms@yahoo.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: BIG problems-Model A with dual mags
Dan-
I am closing in on wrapping up my "A" rebuild and will be most willing to h
elp with any tid-bits that I have picked up. I still think the "A" is the w
ay to go after 8 years of flying behind one. Mine has never missed a beat
=2C always started and helped me to avoid the dreaded "Aardvark nose" syndr
ome that seems to be prevalent on Air Campers with lighter engines (or heav
ier pilots!).
I fell for the local A&P drivel about low compression numbers and tore mine
down for a quick valve grind.......one thing led to another and the whole
thing was instantly transformed into a pile of pieces. While it's true that
some things got spiffed up a bit=2C I am convinced that the old engine wou
ld have gone another 8+ years just as it was.
There is wa-a-a-ay too much second-guessing both Mr. Ford and Mr. Pietenpol
on this list.( Something about a silk purse comes to mind here). So=2C cle
an yours out=2C put it back together like Henry told us to without all thos
e futuristical doo-dads=2C and go fly!
Larry Williams xcg=2C xcmr=2C epp=2C ama=2C lds=2Caopa=2C eaa=2C nsra=2C et
c.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: BIG problems-Model A with dual mags |
Dan,
I have been flying behind Fords and other very old polluters for well over 45 years
and never had a problem , failure, sputter or other Ford Ill. Except maybe
Douwes or 36L, which had nothing to do with the engines.
Keep the crank gear well oiled and all the gears that work with it will keep oiled
also, My main cap has a 1/8 NPT and a 1/16Th short copper tube that aims it's
oil stream directly on the crank gear, It was put in by H&H for the racing
Ford A cars back in 1988, and has never failed with all the things that I have
done to It.
Pieti Lowell
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314314#314314
Message 8
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No washout - stalls fine.
--------
Kevin Purtee
NX899KP
Austin/Georgetown, TX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314315#314315
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: BIG problems- Model A wth dual mags |
Dan,
I believe the phenolic gear to be the best option solely based on it's ability
to absorb minute mismatch in mesh. It is critical that the mesh be within tolerance.
AER/Skokie knows their stuff in this department. They inserted my engine...both
mains and rods. I did everything else. I have nearly 5 hours on my engine
and will tear it down at 10 to check everything out. I am a firm believer
that simple is better and only have the single ignition Bosch MJC-4C mag on my
engine. I checked with several old time mag shops and asked what mag they thought
to be the most dependable. If I remember correctly 3 out of 5 said the Bosch
MJC were bulletproof. Something to remember is that AER only knows what Piet
owners tell them. I had to explain to him that the prop is pulling against
the front thrust bearing. As set-up for a car(by AER) they put the thrust bearing
in the front of the rear main....to take clutch/declutch loads. Think about
that for a minute. I had him put thrust bearing on both ends of the rear main.
No one had ever explained that to him before.
I would like to see your engine when you tear it down. We can all learn from what
you find.
Mike C
--------
PAPA MIKE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314320#314320
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Those that have, and those that will... |
Howdy folks!
Well, I got the fiberglass top of the center section off using a utility
knife, pulled the tank out and discovered that one of the soldered rivet
heads holding the baffle had cracked. It was the rivet right under the
filler cap, so my guess is that it's been banged by dipsticks and fuel
nozzles or dipsticks man-handling fuel nozzles.
I left the tank out in the sun today to see if the heat would evaporate
the rest of the 100LL from the nooks and crannies. Hopefully I'll be
able to apply some heat to it by tomorrow.
I don't want this to happen again. I'm thinking of soldering a
galvanized "patch" over this rivet head.
Also, I see that the fuel vent tube attachment (see photos) has leaked
in the past and might even be part of the leak, now. I'm leery of
trying to disassemble this thing and replacing the gasket mating it to
the tank. I can't imagine how I'll be able to get a wrench into the
tank to tighten it back up afterwards - I might be able to reach it from
the filler opening with a long wrench. So, I'm thinking of cleaning it
up good and gobbing a bunch of silicone sealant around it.
What do you think?
Thanks!
Dan
On 09/26/2010 08:59 PM, Dan Yocum wrote:
> Well, I'm happy to report that the main tank is galvanized, not fiberglass. I'll
still have to cut through fiberglass to get to the tank, however.
>
> Dan
>
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
Message 11
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| Subject: | Those that have, and those that will... |
Dan,
I created an 8x10 access panel in the top that included the filler neck.
Everything gets sealed up before the panel goes in, that way I can reach in
and do stuff. The panel would get riveted and sealed with gas tank sealer
goop (forgot the name). Don't know if you would want to do that much, but
might be an idea.
(WARNING: NOT FLIGHT TESTED)
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(20 ribs down.)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Yocum
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 7:57 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Those that have, and those that will...
Howdy folks!
Well, I got the fiberglass top of the center section off using a utility
knife, pulled the tank out and discovered that one of the soldered rivet
heads holding the baffle had cracked. It was the rivet right under the
filler cap, so my guess is that it's been banged by dipsticks and fuel
nozzles or dipsticks man-handling fuel nozzles.
I left the tank out in the sun today to see if the heat would evaporate
the rest of the 100LL from the nooks and crannies. Hopefully I'll be
able to apply some heat to it by tomorrow.
I don't want this to happen again. I'm thinking of soldering a
galvanized "patch" over this rivet head.
Also, I see that the fuel vent tube attachment (see photos) has leaked
in the past and might even be part of the leak, now. I'm leery of
trying to disassemble this thing and replacing the gasket mating it to
the tank. I can't imagine how I'll be able to get a wrench into the
tank to tighten it back up afterwards - I might be able to reach it from
the filler opening with a long wrench. So, I'm thinking of cleaning it
up good and gobbing a bunch of silicone sealant around it.
What do you think?
Thanks!
Dan
On 09/26/2010 08:59 PM, Dan Yocum wrote:
> Well, I'm happy to report that the main tank is galvanized, not
fiberglass. I'll still have to cut through fiberglass to get to the tank,
however.
>
> Dan
>
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Those that have, and those that will... |
Hi Dan,
Pro-Seal, the stuff the RV guys use on their tanks works good for patching
like you need. Available at ACS, Van's etc.
Perry Rhoads
N12939
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Yocum" <yocum@fnal.gov>
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Those that have, and those that will...
> Howdy folks!
>
> Well, I got the fiberglass top of the center section off using a utility
> knife, pulled the tank out and discovered that one of the soldered rivet
> heads holding the baffle had cracked. It was the rivet right under the
> filler cap, so my guess is that it's been banged by dipsticks and fuel
> nozzles or dipsticks man-handling fuel nozzles.
>
> I left the tank out in the sun today to see if the heat would evaporate
> the rest of the 100LL from the nooks and crannies. Hopefully I'll be
> able to apply some heat to it by tomorrow.
>
> I don't want this to happen again. I'm thinking of soldering a
> galvanized "patch" over this rivet head.
>
> Also, I see that the fuel vent tube attachment (see photos) has leaked
> in the past and might even be part of the leak, now. I'm leery of
> trying to disassemble this thing and replacing the gasket mating it to
> the tank. I can't imagine how I'll be able to get a wrench into the
> tank to tighten it back up afterwards - I might be able to reach it from
> the filler opening with a long wrench. So, I'm thinking of cleaning it
> up good and gobbing a bunch of silicone sealant around it.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Thanks!
> Dan
>
>
> On 09/26/2010 08:59 PM, Dan Yocum wrote:
>> Well, I'm happy to report that the main tank is galvanized, not
>> fiberglass. I'll still have to cut through fiberglass to get to the tank,
>> however.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>
> --
> Dan Yocum
> Fermilab 630.840.6509
> yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
> "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Those that have, and those that will... |
A slight correction - Van's no longer uses "Pro-Seal". They found that
after about 20 years Pro-Seal gets brittle and cracks (like it has on my 22
year old RV-4), causing leaks around the rivets. Now they use a product (I
think it is called Dyna-Seal) made by FlameMaster (love the name!) that
works better but is a major pain to apply. You can get it from Van's
Aircraft. On their website you can order it directly:
http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi This link will get you to
their accessories catalog, where you can order it. Here is the link for the
sealant itself:
http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1285950996-308-645&bro
wse=misc&product=proseal
Note that they (and everybody else) still refer to it as ProSeal.
Good luck!
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Perry Rhoads
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Those that have, and those that will...
<prhoads61@frontiernet.net>
Hi Dan,
Pro-Seal, the stuff the RV guys use on their tanks works good for patching
like you need. Available at ACS, Van's etc.
Perry Rhoads
N12939
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Yocum" <yocum@fnal.gov>
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Those that have, and those that will...
> Howdy folks!
>
> Well, I got the fiberglass top of the center section off using a utility
> knife, pulled the tank out and discovered that one of the soldered rivet
> heads holding the baffle had cracked. It was the rivet right under the
> filler cap, so my guess is that it's been banged by dipsticks and fuel
> nozzles or dipsticks man-handling fuel nozzles.
>
> I left the tank out in the sun today to see if the heat would evaporate
> the rest of the 100LL from the nooks and crannies. Hopefully I'll be
> able to apply some heat to it by tomorrow.
>
> I don't want this to happen again. I'm thinking of soldering a
> galvanized "patch" over this rivet head.
>
> Also, I see that the fuel vent tube attachment (see photos) has leaked
> in the past and might even be part of the leak, now. I'm leery of
> trying to disassemble this thing and replacing the gasket mating it to
> the tank. I can't imagine how I'll be able to get a wrench into the
> tank to tighten it back up afterwards - I might be able to reach it from
> the filler opening with a long wrench. So, I'm thinking of cleaning it
> up good and gobbing a bunch of silicone sealant around it.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Thanks!
> Dan
>
>
> On 09/26/2010 08:59 PM, Dan Yocum wrote:
>> Well, I'm happy to report that the main tank is galvanized, not
>> fiberglass. I'll still have to cut through fiberglass to get to the tank,
>> however.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>
> --
> Dan Yocum
> Fermilab 630.840.6509
> yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
> "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
>
Message 14
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don't know that I would characterize washout as purely for "stall character
istics." You might also put in washout in one wing to correct wing heavine
ss.
Gene
> From: pietflyr@bellsouth.net
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: cables
> Date: Fri=2C 1 Oct 2010 07:27:33 -0400
>
.net>
>
> Charlie=2C
>
> You can buy cable tensiometers=2C but they are expensive and unnecessary.
> Just tighten the cables until all four are a little more than snug and th
ey
> all make approximately the same sound when plucked. You don't want them
> terribly tight - they don't need to go "Peeeng" when plucked. Just a nice
> low "Thmmmm"=2C but they should all make about the same sound.
>
> These cables actually control the alignment of the wing to the centerline
of
> the airplane. To set the initial tension=2C pick either the forward pair
(at
> the fuselage) or the rear pair and tighten them to a little more than snu
g.
> Then use a metal tape measure and measure the distance from the tailpost
to
> each wingtip. Each distance should be the same=2C within +/- 1/4". If the
> distances are off=2C adjust the tension in the flying wires until the win
g is
> square with the fuselage. Then tighten the other pair and re-measure the
> tailpost to wingtip distance=2C both sides. Adjust tensions as necessary.
>
> Washout is set differently. It is controlled by the length of the rear li
ft
> struts and depending on your strut design may or may not be easily
> adjustable. I have a small bit of washout in mine and the stall
> characteristics are good. As far as I know I have not flown a Pietenpol
> without washout (Ryan=2C does yours have washout or not?) but I suspect i
t
> would be fine without it.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Jack Phillips
> NX899JP
> Raleigh=2C NC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Piep
> Sent: Friday=2C October 01=2C 2010 12:25 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: cables
>
>
>
> I am new to the forum and in the process of rebuilding a Pietenpol that w
as
> stored for the last 10 years. Replacing the cables on the lift struts and
> trying to find out the correct tension for these cables as well as the
> cables on the cabanes and the tail brace wires. Nothing listed in the
> plans. Does anyone have this info or other info on setting the wash in/
> wash out on the wing?
> Thanks=2C
> Charlie
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314290#314290
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | outstanding interview with Greg Cardinal at EAA 09 about |
his and Dale's Pietenpol !
Please excuse me if this was posted previously list but Grant MacLaren, our
newsletter editor for the BPA from 1989 to 1999 send
me this fantastic link.
You were really well-spoken Greg and gave a nice synopsis of what building
and flying a Pietenpol is like. Good job---you make us all proud !
Mike C.
http://www.americanflyers.net/entertainment/interviews/pietenpol_aircamper.
htm
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Those that have, and those that will... |
Dan,
When I was fixing up cars years ago, I found that soldering a US penny to a hole
in a galvanized tank was the right size, shape and was very available.
I'll bet I repaired 20 tanks using that approach...
Best of luck.
--------
Tom Kreiner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314355#314355
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Those that have, and those that will... |
I have to reply to this on because I know it works. Get a bar of soap an rub it
in to the crack. Gas will not break down the soap. I learned this trick when I
was driving on the hiway near Brunswick and picked up a piece of metal and it
sliced a 3 in tear on my fuel tank. I made it to a RV repair station, and that
is what they told me to do. One month later I took the volvo to the dealer in
Jax. where they replaced the tank. One other trick the RV man told me was if you
have a leaky radiator pour a couple of egg whites in the radiator. Both these
tricks might get you home. Cheers, Gardiner
----- Original Message ----
From: Perry Rhoads <prhoads61@frontiernet.net>
Sent: Fri, October 1, 2010 11:58:08 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Those that have, and those that will...
Hi Dan,
Pro-Seal, the stuff the RV guys use on their tanks works good for patching like
you need. Available at ACS, Van's etc.
Perry Rhoads
N12939
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Yocum" <yocum@fnal.gov>
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Those that have, and those that will...
> Howdy folks!
>
> Well, I got the fiberglass top of the center section off using a utility
> knife, pulled the tank out and discovered that one of the soldered rivet
> heads holding the baffle had cracked. It was the rivet right under the
> filler cap, so my guess is that it's been banged by dipsticks and fuel
> nozzles or dipsticks man-handling fuel nozzles.
>
> I left the tank out in the sun today to see if the heat would evaporate
> the rest of the 100LL from the nooks and crannies. Hopefully I'll be
> able to apply some heat to it by tomorrow.
>
> I don't want this to happen again. I'm thinking of soldering a
> galvanized "patch" over this rivet head.
>
> Also, I see that the fuel vent tube attachment (see photos) has leaked
> in the past and might even be part of the leak, now. I'm leery of
> trying to disassemble this thing and replacing the gasket mating it to
> the tank. I can't imagine how I'll be able to get a wrench into the
> tank to tighten it back up afterwards - I might be able to reach it from
> the filler opening with a long wrench. So, I'm thinking of cleaning it
> up good and gobbing a bunch of silicone sealant around it.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Thanks!
> Dan
>
>
> On 09/26/2010 08:59 PM, Dan Yocum wrote:
>> Well, I'm happy to report that the main tank is galvanized, not fiberglass.
>>I'll still have to cut through fiberglass to get to the tank, however.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>
> -- Dan Yocum
> Fermilab 630.840.6509
> yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
> "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Shad flying back home... |
The ole girl made the trip without a sweat.- However my a$$ and back were
talking about that flight for 2 days.- It is always nice flying in the f
all, cold or not it is pretty.- Two "different" things I saw were a bug s
platter on the front windshield, and a couple corn leaves up at 3000 ft(250
0 agl).- No one told that bug he couldn't fly that high.- And even with
the souped up chevy, and the ultra low drag tailwheel. mach-.09 cruise s
peed, that latex paint stuck on there like a dried bugger-to a door knob.
- I did find out that the fuel burn goes up about .2-.4 gph with 60lbs of
junk in the front cockpit, mostly due to C/G issues, trim etc.
-
Happy Fall Flying to You All,
-
Shad=0A=0A=0A
Message 19
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I am needing to replace my old Powertron PT-20, 20 amp hour battery I put in the
Corvair powered bird before I fly it. it is probably 5 or 6 years old and I
had removed it from my Challenger a couple years back thinking it was bad but
after some charging it has been cranking the Corvair for enough revolutions
to start it lately but I'm sure as weather gets colder it will fail.I'm going
to Tulsa tomorrow to see my Mom and have heard of a batteries plus store around
there that sells a lot of different kinds. I'd like to stay with about the same
type battery since I have it mounted and the weight is good. but I have been
reading on th fly-corvair list lately that the dynamos like I have continue
to charge all the time so I am not wanting to particularily cremate a new battery.have
any of you used the sealed small batteries like this and is there a
better option? Raymond
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314363#314363
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| Subject: | Re: Those that have, and those that will... |
Just a word of caution,If you are soldering or welding on a fuel tank you need
to clean it out well and keep it purged with an inert gas while you work on it
or you may well wind up with shrapnel in you.Keeping any large openings open
also helps,if some thing goes bang its not in a confined space.
--------
Building a Piet
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314365#314365
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Try adding a simple solid state voltage regulator. That will take care of o
vercharging. Can be purchased as a motorcycle part from such as JPCycles. A
little internet searching should turn up the exact wiring diagram. Shouldn
't add more than about 8 oz. of weight.
Jeff Wilson
N899WT
St. Louis MO
--- On Fri, 10/1/10, skellytown flyer <skellflyer1@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: skellytown flyer <skellflyer1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: charge
.com>
I am needing to replace my old Powertron- PT-20, 20 amp hour battery I pu
t in the Corvair powered bird before I fly it. it is probably 5 or 6 years
old and I had removed it from my Challenger a couple years back thinking it
was bad but after some charging it has been cranking the Corvair for enoug
h revolutions- to start it lately but I'm sure as weather gets colder it
will fail.I'm going to Tulsa tomorrow to see my Mom and have heard of a bat
teries plus store around there that sells a lot of different kinds. I'd lik
e to stay with about the same type battery since I have it mounted and the
weight is good. but I have been reading on th fly-corvair- list lately th
at the dynamos like I have continue to charge all the time so I am not want
ing to particularily cremate a new battery.have any of you used the sealed
small batteries like this and is there a better option? Raymond
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314363#314363
le, List Admin.
=0A=0A=0A
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: outstanding interview with Greg Cardinal at EAA 09 |
about his and Dale's Pietenpol !
This is the first time I've seen the interview, thanks for posting it.
I do want to point out that the "we" I refer to is myself and Dale
Johnson. Dale did most of the work and deserves most of the credit for
the aircraft, I'm just fortunate enough to fly it around.
When you see Dale at Brodhead next year give him a pat on the back.
Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 4:32 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: outstanding interview with Greg Cardinal at
EAA 09 about his and Dale's Pietenpol !
Please excuse me if this was posted previously list but Grant
MacLaren, our newsletter editor for the BPA from 1989 to 1999 send
me this fantastic link.
You were really well-spoken Greg and gave a nice synopsis of what
building and flying a Pietenpol is like. Good job---you make us all
proud !
Mike C.
http://www.americanflyers.net/entertainment/interviews/pietenpol_aircampe
r.htm
Message 23
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thanks- I have the John Deere dynamo and voltage regulator as described in Wynn's
manual. but the scuttlebutt- if I was reading and understanding right on the
other list is that though the regulator controls the voltage. a dynamo unlike
an alternator just keeps pumping out amps because it has permanent magnets.I
am not an electrician and I expect the system works fine or they wouldn't keep
using it.-I just wondered if certain types of batteries might be more tolerant
of steady charging.it may not matter at all.but thanks for the reply. Raymond
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314371#314371
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Thanks to all who replied. Your advice helps a lot. I am sure to be back with
more questions as they arise.
Charlie
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314381#314381
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/running_pietenpol_e_987.jpg
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Those that have, and those that will... |
An inexpensive and readily available inert gas is carbon monoxide. Just run a
hose from the tailpipe of your car into the fuel tank for a few minutes and it
will eliminate the risk of fire or explosion. This is a trick that old hotrodders
and motorcycle customizers use before welding or soldering on gas tanks.
Just be VERY careful not to fill your lungs with the carbon monoxide...
--------
Billy McCaskill
Urbana, IL
tail section almost done, starting on ribs soon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314383#314383
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| Subject: | Official Pietenpol-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Pietenpol-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The
complete Pietenpol-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Pietenpol-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ]
This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm
************************************************************
******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS *******
************************************************************
PLEASE READ. This document contains Pietenpol-List policies and information
for new and old subscribers. Understanding the Pietenpol-List policies will
minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the Pietenpol-List
running smoothly for all of us.
******************************************
*** Quick Start Guide to List Features ***
******************************************
There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each
one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator
you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this
List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
****************************************
*** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe ***
****************************************
Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and
select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You
may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of
your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the
complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information.
The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is:
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption
process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request
was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed.
You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request.
The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post
until you receive the second conformation email message.
*****************************
*** How to Post a Message ***
*****************************
Send an email message to:
pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed
to the List.
*****************************************************
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*****************************************************
When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message
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email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor.
If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it
is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that
gets posted to the Lists.
Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important
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Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure
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6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed:
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a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk.
7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting
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Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules
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2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000
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unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture
down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the
file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less.
Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
Look for the link "Image Resizer"
3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not
post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother.
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BE COURTEOUS!
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you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
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*******************
*** Digest Mode ***
*******************
Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started.
This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended
to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:"
and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting
of a line of underscores.
Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be
combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list.
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described above, and just select the Digest version of the List.
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Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions
of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable.
Now some caveats:
* Messages sent to "pietenpol-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard
email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the
digest List.
* If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you
will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of
the day.
* If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the
normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change
the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please
*do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*.
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*** List Digest Browser ***
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*****************************************
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small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive
it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the
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Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List
email distribution as normal.
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**********************************************
Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced
email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly
removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving
messages from the Pietenpol-List, go to the following Web page, and look
for your email address and a possible reason for your removal.
The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that
automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that
caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox
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*******************************
If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and
paper mail address in the following format:
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Tower, CA 91234-1234
098-765-1234 w
123-456-7890 h
Please forward this information to the following email address:
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I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when
there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT
be used for any other commercial purpose.
****************************************
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****************************************
Recent messages posted to the Pietenpol-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
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*******************************************
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A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Pietenpol-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
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*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
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The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Pietenpol-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* Pietenpol-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the Pietenpol-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the Pietenpol-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Pietenpol
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
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Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
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Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
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Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
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The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
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If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
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Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Pietenpol-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Pietenpol-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Pietenpol-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Pietenpol-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
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| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
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| Subject: | Official Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Pietenpol-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Pietenpol-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Pietenpol-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Pietenpol-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Pietenpol-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Pietenpol-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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