Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:17 AM - Offset on vertical stab (Dave Sornborger)
2. 04:34 AM - Re: Offset on vertical stab (Jack Phillips)
3. 05:53 AM - Re: Offset on vertical stab (taildrags)
4. 06:39 AM - Re: Pietenpol flying qualities (TOM STINEMETZE)
5. 07:09 AM - Re: Pietenpol flying qualities (Ryan Mueller)
6. 08:16 AM - Re: In Arizona for 2 Months (Jim Boyer)
7. 09:03 AM - Re: Re: Offset on vertical stab (Dan Yocum)
8. 09:43 AM - Flying Qualities - aka cruising at 35mph (Don Emch)
9. 10:32 AM - Fuselage - Long vs Standard (K5YAC)
10. 12:04 PM - Re: Re: Offset on vertical stab (jeff wilson)
11. 12:12 PM - Re: Fuselage - Long vs Standard (Catdesigns)
12. 12:18 PM - Re: Fuselage - Long vs Standard (Rick Holland)
13. 12:39 PM - Re: Re: Fuselage - Long vs Standard (Jim Boyer)
14. 12:55 PM - Re: Fuselage - Long vs Standard (K5YAC)
15. 05:37 PM - Re: Plans and books for sale (GliderMike)
16. 05:52 PM - Re: Re: Fuselage - Long vs Standard (Jack)
17. 06:21 PM - Re: Re: Plans and books for sale (gboothe5@comcast.net)
18. 06:32 PM - Re: Pietenpol flying qualities (kevinpurtee)
19. 06:42 PM - Re: flying qualities--Jack's comments and my thoughts (kevinpurtee)
20. 06:51 PM - Re: Plans and books for sale (GliderMike)
21. 07:36 PM - Re: Re: Fuselage - Long vs Standard (Chris)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Offset on vertical stab |
Howdy,I am going to put on my tailfeathers tonight or tomorrow and am
wondering what king of an offset I should use.I saw 1/2" in the orange
book,but would rather know from someone flying.I am using a Lycoming
O-235 and need to know,looking forward if the leading edge of the
vertical stab goes to the left or right and how much.
Thanks,Dave
Message 2
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| Subject: | Offset on vertical stab |
Dave, if you put in an offset the leading edge of the vertical stab should
go to the left (to provide a right-turing moment) when using normal aircraft
engines. If using Corvairs or other odd engines that turn the wrong way,
you would offset it to the right.
Whether to do it or not depends on whether your engine mount has any offset
built in. It is generally preferable to offset the engine if possible.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Sornborger
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 7:13 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Offset on vertical stab
Howdy,I am going to put on my tailfeathers tonight or tomorrow and am
wondering what king of an offset I should use.I saw 1/2" in the orange
book,but would rather know from someone flying.I am using a Lycoming O-235
and need to know,looking forward if the leading edge of the vertical stab
goes to the left or right and how much.
Thanks,Dave
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Offset on vertical stab |
I'm just doing this to 41CC now, incrementally. First increment was to offset
the stab in the direction Jack has stated (to the left, looking forward), by about
3/8". I then removed the bent-metal trim tab at the trailing edge of the
rudder. Flew pretty well but still yawed to the left. Should have offset the
stab by 1/2" but no more than that.
Next increment was to check engine thrustline and it was zero-zero. I have now
offset the engine thrustline 2 degrees right and 2 degrees down and although
it still yaws to the left, it's getting very close now and the stick forces (elevator)
in cruise are improved as well. These adjustments were done using engine
mount washers, but after I add another 1/2 degree of right thrust, we're
going to machine some aluminum spacers to replace the washers and we're done.
Next will be to play with the bungee tension that I have on the elevator bellcrank
for nose up trim.
I never imagined that 41CC might be a hands-off airplane, but it's looking like
it might be possible, in smooth air, with just the right amount of fuel in the
tank ;o)
--------
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
Air Camper NX41CC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314902#314902
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol flying qualities |
>>>especially if you have no instruments to reference (as is the case in
Axel's front seat, picture attached.)
~Matt
Is that red button visible on the dash what makes the wheels fall off and
go rolling along beside you?
"The pond Axel. The pond's the safest place."
Stinemetze
N328X
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol flying qualities |
Man...at this rate Kevin's never going to want to visit Kansas, no matter
how much people in Wichita are willing to pay. ;)
Ryan
do not archive
On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 8:36 AM, TOM STINEMETZE <TOMS@mcpcity.com> wrote:
> >>>especially if you have no instruments to reference (as is the case in
> Axel's front seat, picture attached.)
>
> ~Matt
> *Is that red button visible on the dash what makes the wheels fall off and
> go rolling along beside you?*
> **
> *"The pond Axel. The pond's the safest place."*
> **
> *Stinemetze*
> *N328X*
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: In Arizona for 2 Months |
Good Andrew, I'll send you an email when we get to Marana. I always like to see
other Piets and how they were done.
Jim B.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew M Eldredge" <andrew.eldredge@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 5, 2010 9:59:58 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: In Arizona for 2 Months
I'd be happy to have visitors. I'm probably a 30 minute drive down from Marana
in Sahuarita. I have not had any other piet drivers down this way to look at the
airplane. With any luck, I'll be close to a return to service by that time.
Andrew
On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 9:09 PM, Jim Boyer < boyerjrb@comcast.net > wrote:
Hi Andrew,
Not trying to butt in here but after Copperstate my wife Arlene and I will be down
in Marana visiting our youngest daughter, son-in-law and two grandkids. I
have heard a lot about the Eldredge's and Pietenpols so wonder if I could arrange
a visit? Jamie is career air force and Michael just retired last February.
thanks,
Jim
PS I have my Corvair engine about ready to go and my Piet is on wheels with all
structure done except wing assembly.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew M Eldredge" < andrew.eldredge@gmail.com >
Sent: Tuesday, October 5, 2010 3:57:15 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: In Arizona for 2 Months
Is it Kevin or Axel?
I'm 15 minutes south of Tucson, about ready to re-cover my fuselage. When are
you going to be in town? There's another beautiful Pietenpol at Ryan Airfield
that's worth going and looking at.
Andrew
On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 10:05 PM, Jim Boyer < boyerjrb@comcast.net > wrote:
Hey Kevin,
Arlene and I will be at Copperstate again this year too. Will you be working that
area for two months? Will have to meet up while there.
Jim B
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "kevinpurtee" < kevin.purtee@us.army.mil >
Sent: Monday, October 4, 2010 7:07:46 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: In Arizona for 2 Months
Hi - If there's anyone within 200 miles of Tucson/Phoenix with a plane/project
I'll be out there for 2 months. Would love to visit and will bring beets. Also
intend to attend Copperstate.
Thanks,
Axel
--------
Kevin Purtee
NX899KP
Austin/Georgetown, TX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314725#314725
===========
st" target="_blank"> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
===========
http://forums.matronics.com
===========
le, List Admin.
="_blank"> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
--
Andrew Eldredge
Sahuarita, AZ
=
st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
===========
http://forums.matronics.com
===========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
--
Andrew Eldredge
Sahuarita, AZ
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Offset on vertical stab |
Oscar,
On 10/06/2010 07:51 AM, taildrags wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "taildrags"<taildrags@hotmail.com>
> Next increment was to check engine thrustline and it was zero-zero. I have now
offset the engine thrustline 2 degrees right and 2 degrees down and although
it still yaws to the left, it's getting very close now and the stick forces
(elevator) in cruise are improved as well. These adjustments were done using
engine mount washers, but after I add another 1/2 degree of right thrust, we're
going to machine some aluminum spacers to replace the washers and we're done.
Next will be to play with the bungee tension that I have on the elevator bellcrank
for nose up trim.
>
You're not putting the Al spacers on the engine mount, are you? Isn't
aluminium too malleable to be used for engine mount spacers due to the
vibration?
Dan
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
Message 8
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| Subject: | Flying Qualities - aka cruising at 35mph |
I haven't had the chance to check the list in a while, but it's a little ironic
the flying qualities issue is on here. This past saturday morning I was up for
a while and re-explored the slow flight qualities. Just for curiosity I timed
my first minute of climb and had nearly 800 feet. It was in the 30s and I
was fairly light. Anyway I went on up to 3000 ft agl and decided to cruise around
for a while at 35 mph. I tried stalls in several configurations. With
and without power. In and out of them, repeatedly. As long as the turns are
coordinated the airplane behaves remarklably well. If you swing the nose around
some as you are bumping the stall it will softly fall off on a wing. I'm sure
if it was allowed to go further it would just keep on going, but the airplane
just really talks to you and conveys what it is planning to do. Ya just kinda
have to listen.
Anyway, just thought I'd throw my plug in for how fanastic of an airplane the Piet
is. Mr. Pietenpol sure knew something when he designed it. Especially that
wing!
Don Emch
NX899DE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314935#314935
Message 9
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| Subject: | Fuselage - Long vs Standard |
I've got my fuse sides completed and all dimensions are per the long fuse plans
except for the angle of the rear seat back and the following diagonal brace...
I moved the top from 31" to 34" (+3"). Currently, both sides are set up parallel
and square so that I can start installing the cross braces from front to
back. I've got a few pieces cut, but before I commit to gluing them into place
I would like to confirm a couple of dimensions...
The white ash cross struts... according to the standard fuse plans, the measurements
to the center of these cross struts are 10" and 37.5" from the firewall
(as illustrated in image 2). This indicates that the front cross strut is installed
directly between the junction of side braces 2 and 3, and the rear cross
strut is installed just ahead of the junction of side braces 4, 5 and 6, correct?
If so, then I must need to transfer this thinking over to the long fuse plans,
which do not illustrate the placement of any of the cross struts. I assume that
I must use the 12" measurement from the firewall since that is where side braces
2 and 3 meet (see image 3) and the rear strut would keep the same 27.5"
measurement from the front strut (39.5" from firewall), in order to jive with
the landing gear measurements.
In short, it looks to me like the landing gear is shifted two inches towards the
rear for the long fuse, correct?
--------
Mark Chouinard
Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314938#314938
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/standard1_188.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/standard2_162.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/long1_151.jpg
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Offset on vertical stab |
We are using Aluminum spacers and it was suggested by our A&P Chapter membe
r.
6061 bar stock 2 inch diameter.
Jeff Wilson
Scrounge Dawg Aviation
--- On Wed, 10/6/10, Dan Yocum <yocum@fnal.gov> wrote:
From: Dan Yocum <yocum@fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Offset on vertical stab
Oscar,
On 10/06/2010 07:51 AM, taildrags wrote:
> -->- Pietenpol-List message posted by: "taildrags"<taildrags@hotmail.co
m>
> Next increment was to check engine thrustline and it was zero-zero.- I
have now offset the engine thrustline 2 degrees right and 2 degrees down an
d although it still yaws to the left, it's getting very close now and the s
tick forces (elevator) in cruise are improved as well.- These adjustments
were done using engine mount washers, but after I add another 1/2 degree o
f right thrust, we're going to machine some aluminum spacers to replace the
washers and we're done.- Next will be to play with the bungee tension th
at I have on the elevator bellcrank for nose up trim.
>
You're not putting the Al spacers on the engine mount, are you?- Isn't al
uminium too malleable to be used for engine mount spacers due to the vibrat
ion?
Dan
-- Dan Yocum
Fermilab- 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
le, List Admin.
=0A=0A=0A
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Fuselage - Long vs Standard |
Mark
What you want is 28-3/4 inches between the center of the two ash pieces. This
will keep your wing struts parallel. Install the front one between braces 2 and
3 like you said and then measure back to get the location of the other ash
piece. On my long fuselage this occurs about the middle of the front seat and
where the joint comes together.
http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Wood%20Gear%20Construction/IMG_1683.JPG
http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Wood%20Gear%20Construction/IMG_1684.JPG
In the picture you can see I had to add a piece to the back of the ash brace already
installed, I believe when I originally installed the ash cross brace I
followed the 27-1/2 inch measurements on the plans.
Chris
--------
Chris
Sacramento, CA
WestCoastPiet.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314945#314945
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Fuselage - Long vs Standard |
Actually the long fueselage moves the firewall 2" forward, and the ash cross
members stay in the same position at the bottom of the Vs where the landing
gear attaches.
rick
On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 11:29 AM, K5YAC <hangar10@cox.net> wrote:
>
> I've got my fuse sides completed and all dimensions are per the long fuse
> plans except for the angle of the rear seat back and the following diagonal
> brace... I moved the top from 31" to 34" (+3"). Currently, both sides are
> set up parallel and square so that I can start installing the cross braces
> from front to back. I've got a few pieces cut, but before I commit to
> gluing them into place I would like to confirm a couple of dimensions...
>
> The white ash cross struts... according to the standard fuse plans, the
> measurements to the center of these cross struts are 10" and 37.5" from the
> firewall (as illustrated in image 2). This indicates that the front cross
> strut is installed directly between the junction of side braces 2 and 3, and
> the rear cross strut is installed just ahead of the junction of side braces
> 4, 5 and 6, correct?
>
> If so, then I must need to transfer this thinking over to the long fuse
> plans, which do not illustrate the placement of any of the cross struts. I
> assume that I must use the 12" measurement from the firewall since that is
> where side braces 2 and 3 meet (see image 3) and the rear strut would keep
> the same 27.5" measurement from the front strut (39.5" from firewall), in
> order to jive with the landing gear measurements.
>
> In short, it looks to me like the landing gear is shifted two inches
> towards the rear for the long fuse, correct?
>
> --------
> Mark Chouinard
> Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314938#314938
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/standard1_188.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/standard2_162.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/long1_151.jpg
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Fuselage - Long vs Standard |
Chris,
What is that vertical piece of wood doing? Do you have your wing/center section
temporarily mounted?
Thanks,
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Catdesigns" <Catdesigns@att.net>
Sent: Wednesday, October 6, 2010 12:10:22 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage - Long vs Standard
Mark
What you want is 28-3/4 inches between the center of the two ash pieces. This
will keep your wing struts parallel. Install the front one between braces 2 and
3 like you said and then measure back to get the location of the other ash
piece. On my long fuselage this occurs about the middle of the front seat and
where the joint comes together.
http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Wood%20Gear%20Construction/IMG_1683.JPG
http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Wood%20Gear%20Construction/IMG_1684.JPG
In the picture you can see I had to add a piece to the back of the ash brace already
installed, I believe when I originally installed the ash cross brace I
followed the 27-1/2 inch measurements on the plans.
Chris
--------
Chris
Sacramento, CA
WestCoastPiet.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314945#314945
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Fuselage - Long vs Standard |
Great! That makes perfect sense. That is what I'll be looking at tonight.
Thanks!
Catdesigns wrote:
> Mark
>
> What you want is 28-3/4 inches between the center of the two ash pieces. This
will keep your wing struts parallel. Install the front one between braces 2
and 3 like you said and then measure back to get the location of the other ash
piece. On my long fuselage this occurs about the middle of the front seat and
where the joint comes together.
>
> http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Wood%20Gear%20Construction/IMG_1683.JPG
> http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Wood%20Gear%20Construction/IMG_1684.JPG
>
> In the picture you can see I had to add a piece to the back of the ash brace
already installed, I believe when I originally installed the ash cross brace
I followed the 27-1/2 inch measurements on the plans.
>
> Chris
--------
Mark Chouinard
Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314950#314950
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Plans and books for sale |
My Pietenpol plans and the Corvair Flight Engines Manual are really sold now.
My car died (quite literally) from natural causes on the way to Baton Rouge, and
I sold the plans and WW Corvair Manual to Scott who lives on the south side
of Cincinnatti. Thanks to everyone for their support. when I get back on my
feet, I'll be looking for a Piet project or plans. Until then, I can watch,
and maybe get in on someone's project in Baton Rouge.
--------
HOMEBUILDER
Will WORK for Spruce
Long flights, smooth air, and soft landings,
GliderMike, aka Mike Glasgow
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314977#314977
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Fuselage - Long vs Standard |
Chris beautiful work on your hatch!
Jack
DSM
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Catdesigns
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 2:10 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage - Long vs Standard
Mark
What you want is 28-3/4 inches between the center of the two ash pieces.
This will keep your wing struts parallel. Install the front one between
braces 2 and 3 like you said and then measure back to get the location of
the other ash piece. On my long fuselage this occurs about the middle of
the front seat and where the joint comes together.
http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Wood%20Gear%20Construction/IMG_1683.JPG
http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Wood%20Gear%20Construction/IMG_1684.JPG
In the picture you can see I had to add a piece to the back of the ash
brace already installed, I believe when I originally installed the ash
cross brace I followed the 27-1/2 inch measurements on the plans.
Chris
--------
Chris
Sacramento, CA
WestCoastPiet.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314945#314945
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Plans and books for sale |
Mike,
I wish you a speedy $$ recovery, and feel bad for any hard working individual who
has to go thru that kind of stuff.
Your handle, "Glider Mike", implies a noteworthy past, but, as you work on your
comeback in to the world of powered flight, I wonder if a different handle would
be less...disconcerting. Sorta like gettin' on a motorcycle with 'Crash,'
or on a bomb squad with 'Lefty'.
Gary Boothe
Do not archive
------Original Message------
From: GliderMike
Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
ReplyTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans and books for sale
Sent: Oct 6, 2010 5:34 PM
My Pietenpol plans and the Corvair Flight Engines Manual are really sold now.
My car died (quite literally) from natural causes on the way to Baton Rouge, and
I sold the plans and WW Corvair Manual to Scott who lives on the south side
of Cincinnatti. Thanks to everyone for their support. when I get back on my
feet, I'll be looking for a Piet project or plans. Until then, I can watch,
and maybe get in on someone's project in Baton Rouge.
--------
HOMEBUILDER
Will WORK for Spruce
Long flights, smooth air, and soft landings,
GliderMike, aka Mike Glasgow
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314977#314977
Sent on the Sprint Now Network from my BlackBerry
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol flying qualities |
I love it! Wouldn't have it any other way. The red button explanations so far:
- back seat eject button
- front seat eject button
- left wheel eject button
- general panic button
- Matt talking to tower thinking he's talking to me button (this is true):)
As he mentioned, Matt's basically a zero-time taildragger guy. He's flown in my
front seat for a couple of hours, with no instruments, and has probably shot
12-15 landings. Each landing gets better. Another hour and he'll have it down
to where I won't be guarding the controls. I think that speaks pretty well
in general for Piet handling.
Axel
do not archive
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Kevin Purtee
NX899KP
Austin/Georgetown, TX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314985#314985
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| Subject: | Re: flying qualities--Jack's comments and my thoughts |
They are so pretty naked! Nice work, Gene.
do not archive
Axel/Kevin/Dumas
--------
Kevin Purtee
NX899KP
Austin/Georgetown, TX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314986#314986
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| Subject: | Re: Plans and books for sale |
Gary, I started using the GliderMike handle several years ago on a hang gliding
forum. The first time I went to Iraq as a truck driver, the other guys started
calling me Glider, because that was all I talked about. I brought my paraglider
with me to Baton Rouge, as it doesn't take up much space. The hang glider
needs a 20 foot long area to store it. I didn't (and still don't) know what
I will have in the way of housing there, and didn't want to have to leave it
on top of the car all the time. There are some folks a little west of Houston
that fly paragliders some, and paramotors a lot more. They use a truck mounted
pay out winch system to launch the paragliders. The paramotors are similar
to the powered parachutes, but are usually in the ultralight category, and are
more likely to be able to be flown as a glider than the powered parachutes.
The Glider moniker is not as bad as it might sound. I use a mechanic oriented
email address when I do "professional" aviation things. Some one else already
had anpmike, so I had to settle for anpmikeg for my "professional" email address.
All my "fun" aviation things are still centered around "high and slow"
or "low and slow." My GliderMike handle bears some similarity to "Piety" Lowell's
moniker, so it really isn't as bad as it might sound.
--------
HOMEBUILDER
Will WORK for Spruce
Long flights, smooth air, and soft landings,
GliderMike, aka Mike Glasgow
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| Subject: | Re: Fuselage - Long vs Standard |
Jim
The picture was taken when the fuselage was upside down (inverted) while I
built the landing gear. In the picture you are actually looking up into the
fuselage. I wedged the stick between the garage floor and the fitting to
hold the fitting in place while I drilled holes from the other side. It was
a rather simple solution to a tricky problem of clamping the fitting where
there is no place to clamp.
Chris
Sacramento, Ca
Westcoastpiet.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Boyer
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage - Long vs Standard
Chris,
What is that vertical piece of wood doing? Do you have your wing/center
section temporarily mounted?
Thanks,
Jim
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