Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:42 AM - Fuel Starvation (jeff wilson)
2. 05:01 AM - Re: Ford hub (helspersew@aol.com)
3. 05:28 AM - Need to order steel (Kringle)
4. 06:17 AM - Re: Ford hub (bender)
5. 06:48 AM - Re: Fuel Starvation (hvandervoo@aol.com)
6. 07:45 AM - Re: fuel tanks (Dan Yocum)
7. 08:01 AM - Re: Fuel Starvation (Dan Yocum)
8. 08:01 AM - Re: Need to order steel (jeff wilson)
9. 08:03 AM - Re: Need to order steel (Jack Phillips)
10. 09:08 AM - Re: Need to order steel (jeff wilson)
11. 09:11 AM - Re: Fuel Starvation (dgaldrich)
12. 09:46 AM - Re: fuel tanks (Dangerous Dave)
13. 09:55 AM - Re: Fuel Starvation (Dangerous Dave)
14. 10:59 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Starvation (Michael Perez)
15. 11:30 AM - Re: Need to order steel (brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com)
16. 01:05 PM - Re: Need to order steel (Kringle)
17. 01:41 PM - FAA attempt to clamp down on IA renewals (Ryan Mueller)
18. 02:43 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Starvation (KM Heide CPO/FAAOP)
19. 03:44 PM - Re: Re: Need to order steel (airlion)
20. 03:51 PM - Re: Need to order steel (Kringle)
21. 04:03 PM - Re: Re: Need to order steel (Ryan Mueller)
22. 04:17 PM - Re: Need to order steel (Kringle)
23. 04:46 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Starvation-- discussing interference between cables and a fuze tank (Tim Willis)
24. 09:10 PM - Re: Need to order steel (coxwelljon)
25. 10:54 PM - Re: Air Camper construction time2 (jorge lizarraga)
Message 1
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I'm at the point to start thinking about fuel tanks and fuel line routing.
- My main concern is fuel starvation in a nose up, take off attitude.-
It shouldn't be a concern with a full tank on take off, but perhaps someone
wants to do a touch and go on the return trip from the pancake breakfast.
- With a gravity feed system a wing tank is of little concern but with a
nose tank I'm unsure.- I have heard of cases where it has happened. I'm u
sing an A-65 with Stromberg. Does anyone have any comments on the subject o
f fuel pumps. Also, those who have two tanks, one in the wing and one in th
e nose, how do you switch them?- Where is your valve mounted?- How many
of you use a gascolator and is a pump necessary with that.- Those of you
-using a pump, what type?
-
Jeff Wilson
St. Louis-=0A=0A=0A
Message 2
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Jeff,
The crank flange on the Model A is small, too small to bolt a prop to and e
xpect it to stay on and stay tracking properly. I bought a prop hub that Ke
n Perkins sells that fits the Continental 6-bolt spacing and crush plates t
hat are available from him or ACS. Said hub, attaches on to the Model A cra
nk flange with four cap screws. I used blue Locktite to insure those cap sc
rews stay in there, because there is not enough room to fit a nut behind th
e crank flange. You can see the stuff that Perkins sells if you go to Mykit
plane.com and look him up. His current email is KenandVernaperkins@sbcgloba
l.net
Any other questions let me know.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
-----Original Message-----
From: bender <jfaith@solairusaviation.com>
Sent: Mon, Nov 15, 2010 3:30 pm
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ford hub
>
I keep looking at the model T hub in the plans and wondering why it's even
here.. I can't see the purpose unless its just to have the center of the pr
op
filled in" . the bolts and the crush plate hold the prop against the hub wh
ich
nly seems to be a spacer to me.... am i missing something ?
t sure looks to me like a prop bolted to the crank flange is just the same
as
dding a hub between the prop and the flange..
any thoughts ?
eff
20 ribs done
uselage wood ripped
ngine about to go out
ool gauges on the shelf
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319511#319511
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| Subject: | Need to order steel |
I just finished a EAA gas welding class and would to start making some of my fittings
over the holidays. How much 4130 should I order for the piet?
I tried to search the achieves but had no luck.
Thanks,
--------
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319555#319555
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I've seen the hubs that Ken makes.. they look great..but the 4 bolt hub he makes
is like the one Mr Pietenpol used... four bolts, well four studs..that hold
the T hub to the crank flange with 7/16 bolts right into the original holes...
so the diameter is the same as the crank flange
Dan your prop does not have a hole in the middle.. one of the things i was thinking..
was the original idea with the T hub to center the prop on the shaft with
the wood turned spacer
here is Ken's 4 bolt hub
jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319561#319561
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/prop_hub1_008s_791.jpg
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Starvation |
Jeff,
My tech counsler advised when test running the engine on the airframe.
To roll your tailwheel in a ditch, giving the airplane a extreme nose up pi
tch (at least more than the expected Stall position)
And see if the engine will run full throttle for at least 5 minutes.
5 min climb will give you enough altitude to safety
He considered this test mandatory before first flight!
I tested this with 1/2 hour fuel in nose tank (2 1/2 gallons)
Nose tank only has 9 inch head at level flight and this fuel quantity.
I am using a Piper J 3 nose tank, No pump, Corvair engine with a up draft Z
enith carburator.
Hans
NX15KV
-----Original Message-----
From: jeff wilson <jlwilsonnn@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tue, Nov 16, 2010 6:42 am
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel Starvation
I'm at the point to start thinking about fuel tanks and fuel line routing.
My main concern is fuel starvation in a nose up, take off attitude. It sh
ouldn't be a concern with a full tank on take off, but perhaps someone want
s to do a touch and go on the return trip from the pancake breakfast. With
a gravity feed system a wing tank is of little concern but with a nose tan
k I'm unsure. I have heard of cases where it has happened. I'm using an A-
65 with Stromberg. Does anyone have any comments on the subject of fuel pum
ps. Also, those who have two tanks, one in the wing and one in the nose, ho
w do you switch them? Where is your valve mounted? How many of you use a
gascolator and is a pump necessary with that. Those of you using a pump, w
hat type?
Jeff Wilson
St. Louis
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Message 6
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31.5g?!?? That's good for 7 hours! You must have a huge bladder. I
suggest you install a pee tube in your seat bottom.
In all seriousness, that tank looks like it hangs pretty low. Have you
checked to make sure you can get foot pedals or a rudder bar under that
front tank and that a passenger's shins won't bang up against the edge
of the tank? Not naming any names, but I know of one Piet that has that
very problem.
Dan
On 11/15/2010 07:37 PM, Dangerous Dave wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dangerous Dave"<dsornbor@aol.com>
>
> Just got the fuel tanks done.Boyd Welding in Florida.Super job.$800. 21 in nose
10.5 in the wing.dave
>
> --------
> Building a Piet
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319526#319526
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/2010_11_15_16_04_59_984_158.jpg
>
>
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Starvation |
Jeff,
N8031 has a 13g wing tank and a 3.5g header tank in the nose. The
engine is set pretty high compared to other Piets I've seen - the thrust
line is is about even with the top longerons:
http://picasaweb.google.com/josh.lober/FlyingOnJuly112009?authkey=Gv1sRgCPWEqvy-3NHvrAE#5357451455011562418
The carb is a Marvell-Schebler MA-3 installed about 220 hours ago. It
has no fuel pump.
Overall, the plane has flown 450+ hours with no fuel starvation problems
that I'm aware of, and I've had it in a really nose high attitude for
many tens of seconds trying to do power-on stalls (which I just can't
seem to make it do - it just keeps climbing and climbing and climbing...).
Here are a couple pictures of the engine compartment - you can see where
the fuel lines come out of the firewall:
http://5n429glenoak.homelinux.net/gallery/v/airplanes/N8031/img_2550.jpg.html
http://5n429glenoak.homelinux.net/gallery/v/airplanes/N8031/img_2552.jpg.html
Hans's advice seems wise.
Cheers,
Dan
On 11/16/2010 06:39 AM, jeff wilson wrote:
> I'm at the point to start thinking about fuel tanks and fuel line
> routing. My main concern is fuel starvation in a nose up, take off
> attitude. It shouldn't be a concern with a full tank on take off, but
> perhaps someone wants to do a touch and go on the return trip from the
> pancake breakfast. With a gravity feed system a wing tank is of little
> concern but with a nose tank I'm unsure. I have heard of cases where it
> has happened. I'm using an A-65 with Stromberg. Does anyone have any
> comments on the subject of fuel pumps. Also, those who have two tanks,
> one in the wing and one in the nose, how do you switch them? Where is
> your valve mounted? How many of you use a gascolator and is a pump
> necessary with that. Those of you using a pump, what type?
> Jeff Wilson
> St. Louis
>
>
> *
>
> *
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
Message 8
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| Subject: | Need to order steel |
Try using the words "materials list" to search the archives. I do recall seeing
that in the last 6 or 7 months.
899WT
-----Original Message-----
From: Kringle <Mrkringles@msn.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 7:26 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Need to order steel
I just finished a EAA gas welding class and would to start making some of my fittings
over the holidays. How much 4130 should I order for the piet?
I tried to search the achieves but had no luck.
Thanks,
--------
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319555#319555
Message 9
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| Subject: | Need to order steel |
Order just enough, and no more.
Seriously, there is no way anyone can tell you. For one thing, there are
many different sizes required, and vastly different amounts depending on
which landing gear and which engine you are using. Whatever you calculate,
double it. Steel is cheap - shipping it is expensive, and screwing up a
part and then having to wait for more steel to arrive because you ordered
just enough is very frustrating.
Many of the parts are made of .090" steel 1" wide or 3/4" wide. You can buy
4130 strips that are slit-sawn to those widths and that vastly simplifies
cutting the parts.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kringle
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:26 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Need to order steel
I just finished a EAA gas welding class and would to start making some of my
fittings over the holidays. How much 4130 should I order for the piet?
I tried to search the achieves but had no luck.
Thanks,
--------
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319555#319555
Message 10
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| Subject: | Need to order steel |
If you don't live too rural, you may be able to find a metals supplier nearby.
It doesn't all have to come from AC Spruce or Wicks. Usually cheaper too. I found
a great source in St. Louis, MO, Shapiro Metals on Natural Bridge. They recycle,
deal in used materials and also have a great selection of 4130 sheet and
tube and 6061 & 2024 aluminum.
If you live out in farm country, check with your local tractor and farm equipment
shop for materials. If they have it, they can probably tell you where to find
it.
Counting shipping, I save over half the price compared to Spruce or Wicks, and
I can pop in whenever I need to restock. Wish they had AN turnbuckles.
Jeff Wilson
899WT(r)
St. Louis
Fuse done, installing controls.
Wings done no hardware.
-----Original Message-----
From: Kringle <Mrkringles@msn.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 7:26 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Need to order steel
I just finished a EAA gas welding class and would to start making some of my fittings
over the holidays. How much 4130 should I order for the piet?
I tried to search the achieves but had no luck.
Thanks,
--------
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319555#319555
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Starvation |
Since the Stromberg has no effective mixture control, a recommended way to do engine
AND fuel shutoff is to have a cable operated valve close to the engine.
The theory is that if you use just the ignition to shut down the engine, the
unburned fuel can cause flooding/hard starting issues during a quick restart.
Also, the float seats can be a source of leaks so an easily usable fuel shutoff
of some kind is almost mandatory. A fuel shutoff at the wing tank is also
a very good idea just in case something catches fire. That eliminates gas as
a source of fuel and also isolates the fuel in case of a forced landing. Hooking
both valves to one cockpit control is going to be my choice.
Dave Aldrich
Read this topic online here:
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There is enough room for feet,no controls in the front cockpit,no seat belts in
front either,mostly for camping gear,food,rifle and will be covered.31 gallon
total with 28 usable should give me 4 hours with my o-235 cruising at 90.
6 days to Alaska from Colorado,with any luck.Probably will take 10 days
Dave
--------
Building a Piet
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319596#319596
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Starvation |
Just getting going on my fuel system as well.The wing tank will refill the nose
tank.The nose tank will feed the gascolator and the fuel will be pumped via mechanical
engine pump to the MA3A on the O-235.Not much into wondering if I will
have a fuel starvation problem or redoing everything if the was a problem.Dave
--------
Building a Piet
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319599#319599
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Starvation |
I just started designing my fuel tank this past weekend. It will be a nose tank
only, no wing tank and I plan on welding the aluminum myself. Currently, I am
making up a model template of the entire tank using craft type cardboard. I realized
so far, I have not allowed room past the tank for wires/cables to run
from the pilot seat through the firewall. I will either make room, or I may install
a tube through the tank for the cables. Still working out the size/shape/details.
Just some words for thought...
Message 15
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| Subject: | Need to order steel |
I have gotten my 4130 from Metal Supermarket here in SLC, I know they
have chains stores. I bought the 4130 sheet and they sheared it to the
sizes I needed right there for me.
Brian
SLC-UT
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| Subject: | Re: Need to order steel |
You would think here in Dayton, oh. The birthplace of aviation I could find some
4130 steel but so far no luck.
--------
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319626#319626
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| Subject: | FAA attempt to clamp down on IA renewals |
Worth a look...
http://www.antiqueairfield.com/articles/show/778-faa-proposal-to-restrict-ia-renewal
Ryan
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Starvation |
When I made my nose tank, I purchased pink foam board insulation from Menar
d's.-With a little glue and a sharp knife, you can cut out your patterns
and get them very close to realistic size and shapes. Glue together and pla
ce in plane for exact fitting.-
-
Worked very well for the welder to visual see what-I was after. I-made
sure the bottom flowed to the front and added baffles inside to prevent 'sl
oshing' form side to side and front to back!
-
To find a good welder with very little cost,-I used the Amish shop nearby
.-They are excellent craftsmen-with low labor costs!
-
My 2cents worth!
-
KMH--
--- On Tue, 11/16/10, Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuel Starvation
I just started designing my fuel tank this past weekend. It will be a nose
tank only, no wing tank and I plan on welding the aluminum myself. Currentl
y, I am making up a model template of the entire tank using craft type card
board. I realized so far, I have not allowed room past the tank for wires/c
ables to run from the pilot seat through the firewall. I will either make r
oom, or I may install a tube through the tank for the cables. Still working
out the size/shape/details. Just some words for thought...
=0A=0A=0A
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Need to order steel |
Go to any sheet metal shop. they may have it. Or any Machine shop
----- Original Message ----
From: Kringle <Mrkringles@msn.com>
Sent: Tue, November 16, 2010 4:03:28 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Need to order steel
You would think here in Dayton, oh. The birthplace of aviation I could find some
4130 steel but so far no luck.
--------
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319626#319626
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| Subject: | Re: Need to order steel |
I called a half dozen steel suppliers and two weld shops in the Dayton , OH area
today with no luck.
--------
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319646#319646
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| Subject: | Re: Need to order steel |
Why don't you contact the local EAA chapter, or hit up a meeting, and ask
where others are buying theirs from in the area?
http://www.eaa.org/chapters/locator/SearchResults.asp?ChapterDivision=EAA&ChapterNumber=48
<http://www.eaa.org/chapters/locator/SearchResults.asp?ChapterDivision=EAA&ChapterNumber=48>
Ryan
On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 5:49 PM, Kringle <Mrkringles@msn.com> wrote:
>
> I called a half dozen steel suppliers and two weld shops in the Dayton , OH
> area today with no luck.
>
> --------
> John
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319646#319646
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Need to order steel |
Good idea. I joined a local group about 6 months ago and will ask at the next
meeting.
--------
John
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319650#319650
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Starvation-- discussing interference between |
cables and a fuze tank
Mike,
Corky ran all the wires and cables on my project outside the ply on the fuze, so
that they can be covered over with fabric that is stretched over the long formers.
It makes for a neater cockpit.
I am running some of the wiring in very, very light flex aluminum conduit (3/8",
Home Depot), with the same arrangement, between the fuze and fabric, and leaving
some empty runs for future wiring, with pull strings in them. ["Future"
includes for radio, intercom, possible EHT or cicuits for a larger replacement
engine with more bells/whistles, and a strobe or two. Dunno what, if any, I
will ever install.]
I know, the conduit adds a little weight, mighty little, but it protects the wires
and to a degree future-proofs (with empty "future" conduits) the build.
I like these routing ideas better than a tube through the fuze gas tank. Of course,
there is a practical limit on how far you can flex the mechanical tach cable--
how far from straight ahead.
Tim in central TX
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Perez
Sent: Nov 16, 2010 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuel Starvation
I just started designing my fuel tank this past weekend. It will be a nose tank
only, no wing tank and I plan on welding the aluminum myself. Currently, I am
making up a model template of the entire tank using craft type cardboard. I realized
so far, I have not allowed room past the tank for wires/cables to run
from the pilot seat through the firewall. I will either make room, or I may install
a tube through the tank for the cables. Still working out the size/shape/details.
Just some words for thought...
<clip>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Need to order steel |
Try
Dillsburg Aeroplane Works
114 Sawmill Rd
Dillsburg, PA 17019
717-432-4589
They don't have a website or slick catalog but if you call they will send you out
a price sheet. This is not a high tech operation but I have heard they supply
most of the steel to places like ACS and Wicks. I have found prices to be
pretty good but check against ACS's catalog.
I ordered my cable from them at about 1/2 the price of ACS.
--------
Jon Coxwell
GN-1 Builder
Recycle and preserve the planet
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319679#319679
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Air Camper construction time2 |
I agree whit that , I enjoy all way true too, and corse I spend 10 years al
l ready in 45%finished plane but kep goint some day , tanks for you note I
like tall whit you and enjoy the journey good friend nice people, good time
tanks jorge from hanford
--- On Mon, 11/15/10, Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca> wrote:
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Air Camper construction time
With a few things left to do before building the wings
I have listed in my log 947 hrs. That includes a set
of wing ribs.
-
There are many things that are changes from the plans.
My final "choice" of engine and all that entails for instance.
I lucked into an engine with 800 hrs on the mains and 25
hrs on the top end for $1500. It just happens to be an
O-290. Big engine. Weighs a little more than an "A" with
radiator and water, maybe 5 lb. For $1500 how could I
pass? Yes, you could say sell it for a profit and get
something smaller but what for? And how long before
something else-turns up that's better for the same price?
Oh, by the way, it's certified, logs and everything!
-
It's taken me ten years to rack up that 947 hrs. a lot of
that has been lack of money. Buy some stuff, work with
it, save up and buy a bit more, etc. Some work related.
Somehow ten hours a day seven days a week cuts into
build time. At least THAT's history. :-)
-
How many more hours? hard to say but judging from
what's done and what's left, maybe 150 or 200 hrs?
-
The bottom line is "What are you after?" A finished
plane as soon as possible? The experience of building
such a thing with your own hands regardless of what
it takes? You and you alone get to make the decisions
that dictate your journey.
-
Building this airplane, especially this one, has been a
wonderful experience. This is a fantastic community.
Full of good friends all helping each other.
-
Clif
-
Be Yourself!
Everyone Else Is Taken
-
--- Original Message -----
From: Michael Perez
My story:
I have been building my entire plane from scratch myself. I buy my wood in
bulk, rough cut and then fabricate whatever pieces I need. I have also done
all my own metal work, welding, modifications, etc.- (I plan on doing th
e balance of the project myself as well.) I AVERAGE ABOUT 2-3 hours of work
a day on it...I'm guessing. I am almost 2.5 years into the project and GUE
SS I have about 1.5 - 2 more to go. Hopefully, this will give you a good re
al world idea of time involved.- The best advise I can give you is to enj
oy the time you spend building...even if it seems you are not spending much
time with it.Consistent, steady working/building will get it done and you
will enjoy the entire process more.
=0A=0A=0A
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