---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 12/23/10: 65 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:57 AM - Re: wood legs (Charles Campbell) 2. 03:09 AM - Re: Re: Thanks for the encouragement (Jack Phillips) 3. 03:09 AM - Re: Corvair Engine (Jack Phillips) 4. 03:09 AM - Re: wood legs (Jack Phillips) 5. 04:00 AM - Re: Thanks for the encouragement (Dangerous Dave) 6. 04:15 AM - wood legs (helspersew@aol.com) 7. 05:35 AM - Fw: Steam Power (Charles Campbell) 8. 06:09 AM - wood legs (Richard Schreiber) 9. 07:05 AM - Aircraft drag (brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com) 10. 07:09 AM - Re: Fw: Steam Power (TOM STINEMETZE) 11. 07:24 AM - Re: Fw: Steam Power (Jeff Boatright) 12. 07:36 AM - Re: Fw: Steam Power (Robert Gow) 13. 07:36 AM - Re: Aircraft drag (Jim Markle) 14. 07:41 AM - Re: Fw: Steam Power (Gboothe5) 15. 07:41 AM - Re: wood legs (AmsafetyC@aol.com) 16. 07:42 AM - Re: Aircraft drag (Jeff Boatright) 17. 07:47 AM - Re: covering around fuse fittings? (taildrags) 18. 08:27 AM - Re: Aircraft drag (Charles Campbell) 19. 08:34 AM - Re: Fw: Steam Power (Charles Campbell) 20. 08:46 AM - Re: wood legs (Dick N) 21. 08:47 AM - Re: Fw: Steam Power (Charles Campbell) 22. 08:49 AM - Re: Aircraft drag (Charles Campbell) 23. 08:58 AM - Re: Aircraft drag (Steve Ruse) 24. 09:02 AM - Fw: Aircraft drag link (amsafetyc@aol.com) 25. 09:07 AM - Re: Aircraft drag (AmsafetyC@aol.com) 26. 09:41 AM - Re: Corvair Engine (Michael Silvius) 27. 10:34 AM - Re: Corvair Engine (Charles Campbell) 28. 10:38 AM - Re: Aircraft drag (Charles Campbell) 29. 10:42 AM - Re: Corvair Engine (Michael Silvius) 30. 11:55 AM - Re: Aircraft drag (gboothe5@comcast.net) 31. 12:02 PM - Re: Aircraft drag (Kip and Beth Gardner) 32. 12:08 PM - Re: wood legs (Greg Cardinal) 33. 01:16 PM - Re: Fw: Steam Power (Mike Tunnicliffe) 34. 01:46 PM - Re: Fw: Steam Power (Charles Campbell) 35. 01:49 PM - Re: Aircraft drag (Charles Campbell) 36. 01:53 PM - Re: wood legs (Charles Campbell) 37. 02:53 PM - Re: wood legs (Barry Davis) 38. 03:07 PM - Re: wood legs (Dale Johnson) 39. 03:22 PM - Re: wood legs (Piet2112) 40. 03:31 PM - Re: wood legs (Greg Cardinal) 41. 03:34 PM - Re: wood legs (Piet2112) 42. 03:43 PM - Re: wood legs (Greg Cardinal) 43. 04:01 PM - Re: wood legs (Bill Church) 44. 04:10 PM - Re: wood legs (Catdesigns) 45. 04:21 PM - Re: wood legs (Piet2112) 46. 04:25 PM - Re: Aircraft drag (helspersew@aol.com) 47. 04:32 PM - Re: Aircraft drag (Gboothe5) 48. 05:33 PM - engine vs cruise speeds (was corvair) (shad bell) 49. 05:50 PM - Re: Aircraft drag (Jim Markle) 50. 06:11 PM - Re: Aircraft drag (Charles Campbell) 51. 06:11 PM - Re: Aircraft drag (Charles Campbell) 52. 06:41 PM - Re: Aircraft drag (gliderx5@comcast.net) 53. 06:42 PM - Re: Aircraft drag (Kip and Beth Gardner) 54. 06:44 PM - Re: Aircraft drag (Kenneth Bickers) 55. 06:49 PM - Re: Aircraft drag (mike Hardaway) 56. 07:48 PM - Re: Aircraft drag (steve emo) 57. 07:49 PM - Re: wood legs (Ernie Moreno) 58. 09:32 PM - Re: Aircraft drag (kevinpurtee) 59. 09:42 PM - The Rambo Piet (wayne@taildraggersinc.com) 60. 09:49 PM - Re: Re: Aircraft drag (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 61. 09:49 PM - Re: wood legs (kevinpurtee) 62. 09:53 PM - Re: Corvair Engine (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 63. 09:54 PM - Re: The Rambo Piet (kevinpurtee) 64. 09:56 PM - Re: Age thread, Chet Peek (kevinpurtee) 65. 10:34 PM - Re: wood legs (Greg Cardinal) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:57:54 AM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood legs How about Douglas Fir? ----- Original Message ----- From: "bender" Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 11:31 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood legs > > > i know this horse gets beaten a lot but.... i'm about to build the wooden > gear and i'm thinking about wood... my fuselage is all poplar and i'm > totally comfortable with the wood and it's strength.. but... do i use it > for the gear legs like i'm thinking i should ?? i've read that ash for the > legs is really overkill and i'm not a rebel but it's not going to be > spruce.. i really like picking boards from the pile myself and there is no > spruce in kentucky > > jeff > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324178#324178 > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:09:00 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Thanks for the encouragement The PolyFiber manual says to glue the fabric to the rib capstrips using PolyTak for undercambered ribs, then do the initial shrink BEFORE ribstitching. Then stitch it, then do the final two shrinks. The Ceconite manual does not mention it, and Ceconite is only shrunk to 250=B0, and doesn't use the 300=B0 and 350=B0 shrinks that PolyFiber uses. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dangerous Dave Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 8:19 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Thanks for the encouragement Dan,I have never seen where it is legal to do that.It is only a half inch away from the ribs at the farthest and if you use the correct 3 1/2" rib stiching it just pull right down anyway.If you glued it it could pull up the reinforcing tape and missalign it so as the fabric would directly contact the ribs and eventualy cut through the fabric.dave -------- Covering Piet Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324115#324115 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:09:00 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Engine Shad, it depends on the propeller. Last summer, when I ferried Ryan Mueller's new A65 Continental powered Pietenpol (bought from Gene Pennington) from west Tennessee to Brodhead, I was accompanied by Randy Bush in his Corvair powered Pietenpol. I expected to have difficulty keeping up with Randy with all the power the Corvair produces, but instead I found I had to throttle back to allow him to keep up with me. Ryan's Piet has a beautiful Cloudcars scimitar prop and it performs much better than my A65 powered Piet with a Sensenich prop. I want to get one of those props for mine! Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of shad bell Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 10:27 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Engine Nothing wrong with the corvair.........Except you have to throttle way back and apply carb heat when flying with other ford, lambert, and continental powered piets. Just ask Don E., and Frank Pavliga, Flew all the way home from OSH in 2009 with the throttle pulled back. Now for a serious note, we get an honest 78-83 mph cruise at about 5 to 5.5 gallons per hr with a Heggy 66-30 prop. The continental is a great engine as well, and I would guess that the light weight of the cont. compared to the corvair, you will get at least a 5 mph reduction in stall speed, and defininatly have a lighter airplane (probably 80-100lbs lighter). I think most 65 powered piets come in around 620-640 lbs, Ours is 730lbs, and I believe the few other wooden corvair piets I have seen are within 10-20 lbs of ours. The corvair can sometimes be a R&D project untill you get it all wrung out, after that part is done it is like going out to start your car and flying it around. If you decide corvair, do your homework, get Wynne's manual, and use the resorces and people's knowlage and experiance who have built and flown the engine. It can be reliable, or it can kill you if you don't learn from other's mistakes, and take advantage of others succeses and developments. off my soapbox now Merry Christmas to all Shad ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:09:02 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: wood legs My gear legs are Sitka Spruce, per the plans except I laminated them in 1/4" laminations. They've survived all my poor landings so far. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bender Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 11:32 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood legs i know this horse gets beaten a lot but.... i'm about to build the wooden gear and i'm thinking about wood... my fuselage is all poplar and i'm totally comfortable with the wood and it's strength.. but... do i use it for the gear legs like i'm thinking i should ?? i've read that ash for the legs is really overkill and i'm not a rebel but it's not going to be spruce.. i really like picking boards from the pile myself and there is no spruce in kentucky jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324178#324178 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:00:07 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Thanks for the encouragement From: "Dangerous Dave" Thank you Jack!End of report.Nice to see I'm not the only one with Ceconite,Stewarts and Poly Fibre manuals.Dave -------- Covering Piet Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324196#324196 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:15:49 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood legs From: helspersew@aol.com Besides, if it breaks you can always head for the pond. (geez, I can't believe I said that) If those break, it's too late to head for the pond................. Well, o n second thought, our own Axel already did that last year at Brodhead. I ta ke it back. do not archive Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:37 AM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Steam Power Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 8:25 AM Subject: Steam Power http://www.wxpnews.com/1TG846/100126-Steam-Powered-Airplane Has anyone ever thought about powering a Piet with steam? ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:09:19 AM PST US From: "Richard Schreiber" Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood legs I used laminated douglas fir on mine also. Pete Bowers used laminated pine on the Fly Baby. The straight axle gear on the Fly Baby has the axle mounted solid to the gear legs and only uses the tires for shock absorption. There is more force transmitted to the wood gear legs on a Fly Baby compared to the bungee sprung Pietenpol and the pine seems to hold up fine on the Fly Baby. Rick Schreiber Valparaiso, IN ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:48 AM PST US From: brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag Interesting to watch........ a little old school but the info about drag is still relevant. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE Brian SLC-UT ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:09:21 AM PST US From: "TOM STINEMETZE" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Steam Power Don't know about steam but a lot of Piets (or their owners) seem to have their share of associated hot air. Run for the hills Marge - the flamers are coming. do not archive >>> "Charles Campbell" 12/23/2010 7:28 AM >>> Has anyone ever thought about powering a Piet with steam? ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:24:59 AM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Steam Power Just for kicks I looked into the Besler steam-powered plane a few years ago. If memory serves, the "engine" is relatively light, but the boiler is something like 400 lbs! Might just get off the ground in an Air Camper converted to single-seater... > >Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 8:25 AM >Subject: Steam Power > >http://www.wxpnews.com/1TG846/100126-Steam-Powered-Airplane > >Has anyone ever thought about powering a Piet with steam? > > -- Jeff Boatright "Now let's think about this..." ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:44 AM PST US From: "Robert Gow" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Steam Power I have seriously considered diesel power. A little VW engine . . From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOM STINEMETZE Sent: December 23, 2010 10:06 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Steam Power Don't know about steam but a lot of Piets (or their owners) seem to have their share of associated hot air. Run for the hills Marge - the flamers are coming. do not archive >>> "Charles Campbell" 12/23/2010 7:28 AM >>> Has anyone ever thought about powering a Piet with steam? ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:44 AM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag Now THAT is INTERESTING! Well, so much for NOT streamlining struts and cabanes! I remember wondering why Chuck Gantzer went to so much trouble adding all that streamlining to his struts.... Hand carving balsa, overlaying fabric....but he reduced drag by a HUGE factor. Very interesting video and should be required viewing! Thanks Brian, very interesting. jm -----Original Message----- >From: brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com >Sent: Dec 23, 2010 10:01 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag > > >Interesting to watch........ a little old school but the info about drag >is still relevant. > > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE > >Brian >SLC-UT > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:17 AM PST US From: "Gboothe5" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Steam Power "Run for the hills Marge - the flamers are coming." Thusly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq1KeyEARBU Gary Boothe Do not archive From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOM STINEMETZE Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 7:06 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Steam Power Don't know about steam but a lot of Piets (or their owners) seem to have their share of associated hot air. do not archive >>> "Charles Campbell" 12/23/2010 7:28 AM >>> Has anyone ever thought about powering a Piet with steam? ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:17 AM PST US From: "AmsafetyC@aol.com" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood legs Mine are laminated wood John Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: bender Sent: Thu, Dec 23, 2010 04:34:51 GMT+00:00 Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood legs i know this horse gets beaten a lot but.... i'm about to build the wooden gear and i'm thinking about wood... my fuselage is all poplar and i'm totally comfortable with the wood and it's strength.. but... do i use it for the gear legs like i'm thinking i should ?? i've read that ash for the legs is really overkill and i'm not a rebel but it's not going to be spruce.. i really like picking boards from the pile myself and there is no spruce in kentucky jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324178#324178 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:35 AM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag Ah, but is his Piet any faster than one powered by a crank-snappin' Corvair?? Do not archive > >Now THAT is INTERESTING! Well, so much for NOT streamlining struts >and cabanes! I remember wondering why Chuck Gantzer went to so much >trouble adding all that streamlining to his struts.... Hand carving >balsa, overlaying fabric....but he reduced drag by a HUGE factor. > >Very interesting video and should be required viewing! > >Thanks Brian, very interesting. > >jm > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:43 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: covering around fuse fittings? From: "taildrags" How to access the oil filler and dipstick? Just put it on the other side! (See pic...) I have always liked that "Canadian Goose"... really nice work, and great color scheme. I notice that he does not have grommets on the cooling eyebrows where the plug leads enter though... I have had the braided shielding on my plug wires wear through anyplace they touch a metal edge like that, especially in the slipstream behind the pulsating prop. -------- Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX Air Camper NX41CC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324223#324223 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/nose_138.jpg ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:27:05 AM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag How about giving us a link. Do you (Jim) have one? Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Boatright" Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 10:40 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag > > Ah, but is his Piet any faster than one powered by a crank-snappin' > Corvair?? > > Do not archive > >> >> >>Now THAT is INTERESTING! Well, so much for NOT streamlining struts and >>cabanes! I remember wondering why Chuck Gantzer went to so much trouble >>adding all that streamlining to his struts.... Hand carving balsa, >>overlaying fabric....but he reduced drag by a HUGE factor. >> >>Very interesting video and should be required viewing! >> >>Thanks Brian, very interesting. >> >>jm >> > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:48 AM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Steam Power Re: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Steam PowerdI was thinking it might need another wing!! ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Boatright To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 10:21 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Steam Power Just for kicks I looked into the Besler steam-powered plane a few years ago. If memory serves, the "engine" is relatively light, but the boiler is something like 400 lbs! Might just get off the ground in an Air Camper converted to single-seater... Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 8:25 AM Subject: Steam Power http://www.wxpnews.com/1TG846/100126-Steam-Powered-Airplane Has anyone ever thought about powering a Piet with steam? -- Jeff Boatright "Now let's think about this..." ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:46:59 AM PST US From: "Dick N" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood legs Charles Mine are 3 ply laminated Douglas Fir. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Campbell" Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 4:54 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood legs > > > How about Douglas Fir? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "bender" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 11:31 PM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood legs > > >> >> >> i know this horse gets beaten a lot but.... i'm about to build the wooden >> gear and i'm thinking about wood... my fuselage is all poplar and i'm >> totally comfortable with the wood and it's strength.. but... do i use it >> for the gear legs like i'm thinking i should ?? i've read that ash for >> the legs is really overkill and i'm not a rebel but it's not going to be >> spruce.. i really like picking boards from the pile myself and there is >> no spruce in kentucky >> >> jeff >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324178#324178 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:30 AM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Steam Power A friend of mine is in charge of procuring aircraft for use in the jungles, primarily, in Christian mission work. He just acquired a Cessna 206 with a diesel engine. Don't know how it performs compared to a gasoline powered 206 but I would surely like to know. I flew the 206 for a while in charter work and really liked it. ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Gow To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 10:26 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Steam Power I have seriously considered diesel power. A little VW engine . . From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOM STINEMETZE Sent: December 23, 2010 10:06 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Steam Power Don't know about steam but a lot of Piets (or their owners) seem to have their share of associated hot air. Run for the hills Marge - the flamers are coming. do not archive >>> "Charles Campbell" 12/23/2010 7:28 AM >>> Has anyone ever thought about powering a Piet with steam? www.aeroelectric.comwww.buildersbooks.comwww.homebuilthelp.comhttp://www. matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Li sthttp://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:35 AM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag How about steel tube landing gear struts. Did he streamline them also or did he use wood? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Markle" Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 10:27 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag > > > Now THAT is INTERESTING! Well, so much for NOT streamlining struts and > cabanes! I remember wondering why Chuck Gantzer went to so much trouble > adding all that streamlining to his struts.... Hand carving balsa, > overlaying fabric....but he reduced drag by a HUGE factor. > > Very interesting video and should be required viewing! > > Thanks Brian, very interesting. > > jm > > > -----Original Message----- >>From: brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com >>Sent: Dec 23, 2010 10:01 AM >>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag >> >> >>Interesting to watch........ a little old school but the info about drag >>is still relevant. >> >> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE >> >>Brian >>SLC-UT >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:58:22 AM PST US From: Steve Ruse Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag That video is absolutely fascinating. I've always heard that a round wire or rod has a massive drag force, but I've never seen it quantified like that. The small wire/large airfoil comparison is really enlightening. Thanks for sharing that Brian. No wonder Vne seems to be a practical limit for my plane, rather than an operational limit. :) I have approached Vne only a few times, in incredibly smooth air. I thought the entire world was falling apart. I am sure that Chuck Yeager himself had no greater sensation of speed when breaking the sound barrier for the first time than I do when approaching Vne in my plane. The noise and stress you feel on the airframe is an eye opener. Steve Ruse Norman, OK Quoting brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com: > > Interesting to watch........ a little old school but the info about drag > is still relevant. > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE > > Brian > SLC-UT > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:18 AM PST US From: "amsafetyc@aol.com" Subject: Fw: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag link Here is the resend with the link Johm Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com Sent: Thu, Dec 23, 2010 15:06:32 GMT+00:00 Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag Interesting to watch........ a little old school but the info about drag is still relevant. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE Brian SLC-UT ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:07:36 AM PST US From: "AmsafetyC@aol.com" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag What is your Pne? John Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: Steve Ruse Sent: Thu, Dec 23, 2010 16:59:30 GMT+00:00 Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag That video is absolutely fascinating. I've always heard that a round wire or rod has a massive drag force, but I've never seen it quantified like that. The small wire/large airfoil comparison is really enlightening. Thanks for sharing that Brian. No wonder Vne seems to be a practical limit for my plane, rather than an operational limit. :) I have approached Vne only a few times, in incredibly smooth air. I thought the entire world was falling apart. I am sure that Chuck Yeager himself had no greater sensation of speed when breaking the sound barrier for the first time than I do when approaching Vne in my plane. The noise and stress you feel on the airframe is an eye opener. Steve Ruse Norman, OK Quoting brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com: > > Interesting to watch........ a little old school but the info about drag > is still relevant. > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE > > Brian > SLC-UT > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:22 AM PST US From: "Michael Silvius" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Engine Caveat emptor. Be sure to cross all your Ts and dot your Is before you send any money to Aeromax and consult the CorvAircraft list archives on this mater. There is some not so nice history there. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: KM Heide CPO/FAAOP However, you can go to Aeromax Avaition http://www.aeromaxaviation.com/aeromax-100-hp-light-aircraft-engine and buy a kit for $6,500.00 to complete your Corvair. I have followed Bill Clapp on these engines and his kits. He offers some set-up different than WW and I like his components better. My opinion is to contact Bill Clapp and visit with him. I too plan on using a corvair engine as I will need extra power to get my extra redundant tissue! ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:41 AM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Engine Yeah! I think I'll stick with WW! I know he's honest and that he cares about the safety of those who use his products. ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Silvius To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 12:13 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Engine Caveat emptor. Be sure to cross all your Ts and dot your Is before you send any money to Aeromax and consult the CorvAircraft list archives on this mater. There is some not so nice history there. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: KM Heide CPO/FAAOP However, you can go to Aeromax Avaition http://www.aeromaxaviation.com/aeromax-100-hp-light-aircraft-engine and buy a kit for $6,500.00 to complete your Corvair. I have followed Bill Clapp on these engines and his kits. He offers some set-up different than WW and I like his components better. My opinion is to contact Bill Clapp and visit with him. I too plan on using a corvair engine as I will need extra power to get my extra redundant tissue! ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:40 AM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag I wonder if anyone has ever considered using a V-type construction on the wing struts and doing away with the X-bracing of the wires. I am purchasing a set of Taylorcraft wing struts from a friend of mine who had to replace his because of some AD. He has punched the old struts and found that they are fine. I don't see why with the proper attachment to the fuselage that V struts wouldn't work on a Piet. Anyone who knows different, let me know. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Ruse" Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 11:55 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag > > > That video is absolutely fascinating. I've always heard that a round > wire or rod has a massive drag force, but I've never seen it quantified > like that. The small wire/large airfoil comparison is really > enlightening. Thanks for sharing that Brian. > > No wonder Vne seems to be a practical limit for my plane, rather than an > operational limit. :) I have approached Vne only a few times, in > incredibly smooth air. I thought the entire world was falling apart. I > am sure that Chuck Yeager himself had no greater sensation of speed when > breaking the sound barrier for the first time than I do when approaching > Vne in my plane. The noise and stress you feel on the airframe is an eye > opener. > > Steve Ruse > Norman, OK > > Quoting brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com: > >> >> Interesting to watch........ a little old school but the info about drag >> is still relevant. >> >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE >> >> Brian >> SLC-UT >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:56 AM PST US From: "Michael Silvius" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Engine Some good reading on Corvairs here. http://issuu.com/panzera/docs/issue_75 and http://issuu.com/panzera/docs/issue_95 Michael ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 11:55:25 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag From: gboothe5@comcast.net You cannot do away with the x-bracing, but you can certainly use those T-craft struts! Gary Sent on the Sprint Now Network from my BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Charles Campbell" Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com I wonder if anyone has ever considered using a V-type construction on the wing struts and doing away with the X-bracing of the wires. I am purchasing a set of Taylorcraft wing struts from a friend of mine who had to replace his because of some AD. He has punched the old struts and found that they are fine. I don't see why with the proper attachment to the fuselage that V struts wouldn't work on a Piet. Anyone who knows different, let me know. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Ruse" Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 11:55 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag > > > That video is absolutely fascinating. I've always heard that a round > wire or rod has a massive drag force, but I've never seen it quantified > like that. The small wire/large airfoil comparison is really > enlightening. Thanks for sharing that Brian. > > No wonder Vne seems to be a practical limit for my plane, rather than an > operational limit. :) I have approached Vne only a few times, in > incredibly smooth air. I thought the entire world was falling apart. I > am sure that Chuck Yeager himself had no greater sensation of speed when > breaking the sound barrier for the first time than I do when approaching > Vne in my plane. The noise and stress you feel on the airframe is an eye > opener. > > Steve Ruse > Norman, OK > > Quoting brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com: > >> >> Interesting to watch........ a little old school but the info about drag >> is still relevant. >> >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE >> >> Brian >> SLC-UT >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 12:02:58 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag From: Kip and Beth Gardner Careful Charles, you'll draw the wrath of the 'stick to the plans' crowd if you're not careful - deviance shall be punished! :) And a Merry Christmas to everyone, too ! Kip Gardner On Dec 23, 2010, at 1:34 PM, Charles Campbell wrote: > > I wonder if anyone has ever considered using a V-type construction on the wing struts and doing away with the X-bracing of the wires. I am purchasing a set of Taylorcraft wing struts from a friend of mine who had to replace his because of some AD. He has punched the old struts and found that they are fine. I don't see why with the proper attachment to the fuselage that V struts wouldn't work on a Piet. Anyone who knows different, let me know. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Ruse" > To: > Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 11:55 AM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag > > >> >> That video is absolutely fascinating. I've always heard that a round wire or rod has a massive drag force, but I've never seen it quantified like that. The small wire/large airfoil comparison is really enlightening. Thanks for sharing that Brian. >> >> No wonder Vne seems to be a practical limit for my plane, rather than an operational limit. :) I have approached Vne only a few times, in incredibly smooth air. I thought the entire world was falling apart. I am sure that Chuck Yeager himself had no greater sensation of speed when breaking the sound barrier for the first time than I do when approaching Vne in my plane. The noise and stress you feel on the airframe is an eye opener. >> >> Steve Ruse >> Norman, OK >> >> Quoting brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com: >> >>> >>> Interesting to watch........ a little old school but the info about drag >>> is still relevant. >>> >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE >>> >>> Brian >>> SLC-UT >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 12:08:11 PM PST US From: "Greg Cardinal" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood legs Compared to the axle, wheels, cables, hardware, etc...the wood is a minor weight contributor to the landing gear system. The legs on NX18235 are ash and have held up to 250 hours of my abuse. Some of that abuse has been downright teeth-jarring. Merry Christmas, Greg Cardinal Minneapolis ----- Original Message ----- From: "bender" Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 10:31 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood legs > > > i know this horse gets beaten a lot but.... i'm about to build the wooden > gear and i'm thinking about wood... my fuselage is all poplar and i'm > totally comfortable with the wood and it's strength.. but... do i use it > for the gear legs like i'm thinking i should ?? i've read that ash for the > legs is really overkill and i'm not a rebel but it's not going to be > spruce.. i really like picking boards from the pile myself and there is no > spruce in kentucky > > jeff > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324178#324178 > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 01:16:20 PM PST US From: "Mike Tunnicliffe" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Steam Power Watch this space, I have the airframe 3/4 done and the engine 1/2 done, 3 cylinder radial uniflow, the boiler yet to do, to fly as a single seater. ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Campbell To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 2:28 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Steam Power Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 8:25 AM Subject: Steam Power http://www.wxpnews.com/1TG846/100126-Steam-Powered-Airplane Has anyone ever thought about powering a Piet with steam? ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 01:46:45 PM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Steam Power Well, I was just kidding -- had no idea someone was working on it. Way to go! More power to you. Keep us advised as to how it's coming along. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Tunnicliffe To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 4:12 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Steam Power Watch this space, I have the airframe 3/4 done and the engine 1/2 done, 3 cylinder radial uniflow, the boiler yet to do, to fly as a single seater. ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Campbell To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 2:28 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Steam Power Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 8:25 AM Subject: Steam Power http://www.wxpnews.com/1TG846/100126-Steam-Powered-Airplane Has anyone ever thought about powering a Piet with steam? href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:58 PM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag Yeah! I'll probably stick to the plans. Except after viewing that video I'll probably streamline my gear legs. Use some balsa and light fibreglass should do it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kip and Beth Gardner" Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 3:00 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag > > > Careful Charles, you'll draw the wrath of the 'stick to the plans' crowd > if you're not careful - deviance shall be punished! :) > > And a Merry Christmas to everyone, too ! > > Kip Gardner > > On Dec 23, 2010, at 1:34 PM, Charles Campbell wrote: > >> >> >> I wonder if anyone has ever considered using a V-type construction on the >> wing struts and doing away with the X-bracing of the wires. I am >> purchasing a set of Taylorcraft wing struts from a friend of mine who had >> to replace his because of some AD. He has punched the old struts and >> found that they are fine. I don't see why with the proper attachment to >> the fuselage that V struts wouldn't work on a Piet. Anyone who knows >> different, let me know. >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Ruse" >> >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 11:55 AM >> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag >> >> >>> >>> >>> That video is absolutely fascinating. I've always heard that a round >>> wire or rod has a massive drag force, but I've never seen it quantified >>> like that. The small wire/large airfoil comparison is really >>> enlightening. Thanks for sharing that Brian. >>> >>> No wonder Vne seems to be a practical limit for my plane, rather than >>> an operational limit. :) I have approached Vne only a few times, in >>> incredibly smooth air. I thought the entire world was falling apart. >>> I am sure that Chuck Yeager himself had no greater sensation of speed >>> when breaking the sound barrier for the first time than I do when >>> approaching Vne in my plane. The noise and stress you feel on the >>> airframe is an eye opener. >>> >>> Steve Ruse >>> Norman, OK >>> >>> Quoting brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com: >>> >>>> >>>> Interesting to watch........ a little old school but the info about >>>> drag >>>> is still relevant. >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> SLC-UT >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 01:53:12 PM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood legs Man, you ought to be able to land so that you never know when the weight of the airplane is transferred from the wings to the wheels. I guess that would depend on the type surface being landed upon. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Cardinal" Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 3:07 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood legs > Compared to the axle, wheels, cables, hardware, etc...the wood is a minor > weight contributor to the landing gear system. > The legs on NX18235 are ash and have held up to 250 hours of my abuse. > Some > of that abuse has been downright teeth-jarring. > > Merry Christmas, > > Greg Cardinal > Minneapolis > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "bender" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 10:31 PM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood legs > > >> >> >> i know this horse gets beaten a lot but.... i'm about to build the wooden >> gear and i'm thinking about wood... my fuselage is all poplar and i'm >> totally comfortable with the wood and it's strength.. but... do i use it >> for the gear legs like i'm thinking i should ?? i've read that ash for >> the >> legs is really overkill and i'm not a rebel but it's not going to be >> spruce.. i really like picking boards from the pile myself and there is >> no >> spruce in kentucky >> >> jeff >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324178#324178 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:39 PM PST US From: "Barry Davis" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: wood legs Greg I hope you tighten that bolt for the wing strut and turn it over in the process :) Barry -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Cardinal Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 3:07 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood legs Compared to the axle, wheels, cables, hardware, etc...the wood is a minor weight contributor to the landing gear system. The legs on NX18235 are ash and have held up to 250 hours of my abuse. Some of that abuse has been downright teeth-jarring. Merry Christmas, Greg Cardinal Minneapolis ----- Original Message ----- From: "bender" Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 10:31 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood legs > > > i know this horse gets beaten a lot but.... i'm about to build the wooden > gear and i'm thinking about wood... my fuselage is all poplar and i'm > totally comfortable with the wood and it's strength.. but... do i use it > for the gear legs like i'm thinking i should ?? i've read that ash for the > legs is really overkill and i'm not a rebel but it's not going to be > spruce.. i really like picking boards from the pile myself and there is no > spruce in kentucky > > jeff > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324178#324178 > > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 03:07:50 PM PST US From: "Dale Johnson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: wood legs Barry You can't turn it over. You can't get the bolt in from the top. That is the way it has to be.I know it is not right but that is the was it has to be. I am the one that built it Take a look at Quid.us/dale Dale Johnson > [Original Message] > From: Barry Davis > To: > Date: 12/23/2010 4:55:35 PM > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: wood legs > > > Greg > I hope you tighten that bolt for the wing strut and turn it over in the > process :) > Barry > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg > Cardinal > Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 3:07 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood legs > > Compared to the axle, wheels, cables, hardware, etc...the wood is a minor > weight contributor to the landing gear system. > The legs on NX18235 are ash and have held up to 250 hours of my abuse. Some > of that abuse has been downright teeth-jarring. > > Merry Christmas, > > Greg Cardinal > Minneapolis > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "bender" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 10:31 PM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood legs > > > > > > > > i know this horse gets beaten a lot but.... i'm about to build the wooden > > gear and i'm thinking about wood... my fuselage is all poplar and i'm > > totally comfortable with the wood and it's strength.. but... do i use it > > for the gear legs like i'm thinking i should ?? i've read that ash for the > > > legs is really overkill and i'm not a rebel but it's not going to be > > spruce.. i really like picking boards from the pile myself and there is no > > > spruce in kentucky > > > > jeff > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324178#324178 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 03:22:38 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood legs From: "Piet2112" After following this discussion, I had to weigh the spruce boards I intend to make my wooden legs from. 8' of 1/2" x 2" spruce weighs about 2.5 pounds. I will be shaving a little of that off when I streamline them. Fairings?....I thought the intent was low and slow. Curt Merdan Flower Mound, TX Waiting to open my X-mas presents. They rattle like 4130! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324280#324280 ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 03:31:59 PM PST US From: "Greg Cardinal" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood legs Once in a while I get lucky.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suOMiQUMd7w > > > Man, you ought to be able to land so that you never know when the weight > of the airplane is transferred from the wings to the wheels. I guess that > would depend on the type surface being landed upon. > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:09 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood legs From: "Piet2112" After following this discussion, I had to weigh the spruce boards I intend to make my wooden legs from. 8' of 1/2" x 2" spruce weighs about 2.5 pounds. I will be shaving a little of that off when I streamline them. Fairings?....I thought the intent was low and slow. Curt Merdan Flower Mound, TX Waiting to open my X-mas presents. They rattle like 4130! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324282#324282 ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 03:43:31 PM PST US From: "Greg Cardinal" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood legs Good catch, Barry. The photo was taken prior to first flight during initial rigging. Dale is correct about the lack of room to install the bolt "properly". This is a good example of a fitting being drawn just a bit too short in the plans. Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Davis" Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 4:51 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: wood legs > > Greg > I hope you tighten that bolt for the wing strut and turn it over in the > process :) > Barry > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg > Cardinal > Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 3:07 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood legs > > Compared to the axle, wheels, cables, hardware, etc...the wood is a minor > weight contributor to the landing gear system. > The legs on NX18235 are ash and have held up to 250 hours of my abuse. > Some > of that abuse has been downright teeth-jarring. > > Merry Christmas, > > Greg Cardinal > Minneapolis > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "bender" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 10:31 PM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood legs > > >> >> >> i know this horse gets beaten a lot but.... i'm about to build the wooden >> gear and i'm thinking about wood... my fuselage is all poplar and i'm >> totally comfortable with the wood and it's strength.. but... do i use it >> for the gear legs like i'm thinking i should ?? i've read that ash for >> the > >> legs is really overkill and i'm not a rebel but it's not going to be >> spruce.. i really like picking boards from the pile myself and there is >> no > >> spruce in kentucky >> >> jeff >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324178#324178 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 04:01:32 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood legs From: "Bill Church" Hmmm... just did a quick calculation based on the numbers provided by Curt. Provided the data is precise, that sounds like a heavy chunk of spruce. 1/2" x 2" x 96" = 96 cu.in., or 0.0555 cu.ft. 2.5 lb/.0555 cu.ft. = 45 lb/cu.ft. That's quite a bit higher than the published value of 28 lb/cu.ft. Something doesn't sound right. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324287#324287 ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 04:10:02 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood legs From: "Catdesigns" Greg , That is my point. The wood gear already adds a lot of weight to the plane so there is no need to add unnecessary weigh by using heavy wood. You did however make me question my assumption so out of curiosity I decided to calculate the amount of wood in the wood gear. Using a streamlined 1-inch by 2.5-inch shape with the dimensions from the wood gear plans, I calculate approximately 171 cubic inches total wood needed or roughly 0.1 cubic feet. Its probably a bit more but it would take a lot more to be significant. This is very fortunate as it makes the weight calculation easy. It appears that the theoretical difference between using spruce versus hickory would be 2.2 pounds. The more commonly use ash adds an addition 1 .1 pounds. As they say, a pound here a pound there, it all adds up. -------- Chris Sacramento, CA WestCoastPiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324288#324288 ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 04:21:21 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood legs From: "Piet2112" Disclaimer....I used the bathroom scale that my wife says is inaccurate. It always reads heavier than it should. Curt Merdan Flower Mound, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324290#324290 ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 04:25:14 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag From: helspersew@aol.com Charles, You can build it any way you like...........but if you use those "V" struts , you will be forbidden from calling it a Pietenpol. Also, keep in mind, if you show up at Brodhead, you will be banished to the far side of the airport, where the spam cans park. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. -----Original Message----- From: Charles Campbell Sent: Thu, Dec 23, 2010 12:38 pm Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag ream.net> I wonder if anyone has ever considered using a V-type construction on the ing struts and doing away with the X-bracing of the wires. I am purchasing set of Taylorcraft wing struts from a friend of mine who had to replace is because of some AD. He has punched the old struts and found that they re fine. I don't see why with the proper attachment to the fuselage that V truts wouldn't work on a Piet. Anyone who knows different, let me know. ---- Original Message ----- rom: "Steve Ruse" o: ent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 11:55 AM ubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag That video is absolutely fascinating. I've always heard that a round wire or rod has a massive drag force, but I've never seen it quantified like that. The small wire/large airfoil comparison is really enlightening. Thanks for sharing that Brian. No wonder Vne seems to be a practical limit for my plane, rather than an operational limit. :) I have approached Vne only a few times, in incredibly smooth air. I thought the entire world was falling apart. I am sure that Chuck Yeager himself had no greater sensation of speed when breaking the sound barrier for the first time than I do when approaching Vne in my plane. The noise and stress you feel on the airframe is an eye opener. Steve Ruse Norman, OK Quoting brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com: > > Interesting to watch........ a little old school but the info about drag > is still relevant. > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE > > Brian > SLC-UT > > -======================== - -= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- -= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) - -= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on -= the Contribution link below to find out more about -= this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided -= by: -= -= * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com -= * The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com -= * HomebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com - -= List Contribution Web Site: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution - -= Thank you for your generous support! - -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - -======================== -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 04:32:06 PM PST US From: "Gboothe5" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag The old recording of the effects of different profiles on drag was interesting, but, remember, drag is a function of velocity, too. The examples shown were at 210 mph. Before anyone spends undue time, effort and expense on streamlining their steel landing gear, flying wires, etc, you might consider that you will very seldom be flying any faster than 1/3 the speed of the demonstration. I seriously doubt if it's worth the effort. Gary Boothe ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 05:33:25 PM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Pietenpol-List: engine vs cruise speeds (was corvair) How about weights Jack, Are you in the 630-650 range?=C2- I know the Corv air is probably at least 60-80 lbs hevier with electric start.=C2- The ba d thing about ours is the small 13 gal fuel capacity in the wing tank.=C2 - It has almost got me in trouble when flying 100+ miles to a fly in and expecting to get fuel only to find out they ran out.=C2- I think I rememb er hearing about a spredsheet someone was working on for flying piets, did this include empty wt, engine, v-speeds etc.=C2- If I knew how to do it I would attempt it, but then again this being a group of builder /pilots I a m sure our numbers would be a little "far from accurate".=C2- A more prac tical pietenpol airspeed indicator would have "ish" after the number.....60 -ish, 70-ish,....or probably best would be SLUG-ISH. =C2- Shad --- On Thu, 12/23/10, Jack Phillips wrote: From: Jack Phillips Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Engine Shad, it depends on the propeller.=C2- Last summer, when I ferried Ryan M ueller=99s new A65 Continental powered Pietenpol (bought from Gene Pe nnington) from west Tennessee to Brodhead, I was accompanied by Randy Bush in his Corvair powered Pietenpol.=C2- I expected to have difficulty keepi ng up with Randy with all the power the Corvair produces, but instead I fou nd I had to throttle back to allow him to keep up with me.=C2- Ryan =99s Piet has a beautiful Cloudcars scimitar prop and it performs much bett er than my A65 powered Piet with a Sensenich prop.=C2- I want to get one of those props for mine! =C2- Jack Phillips NX899JP=C2- =9CIcarus Plummet=9D Raleigh, NC =C2- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of shad bell Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 10:27 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Engine =C2- Nothing wrong with the corvair.........Except you have to throttle way back and apply carb heat when flying with other ford, lambert,=C2-and contine ntal powered piets.=C2- Just ask Don E., and Frank Pavliga, Flew all the way home from OSH in 2009 with the throttle pulled back.=C2- Now for a se rious note, we get an honest 78-83 mph cruise at about 5 to 5.5=C2-gallon s per hr with a Heggy 66-30 prop.=C2- The continental is a great engine a s well, and I would guess that the light weight of the cont. compared to th e corvair, you will get at least a 5 mph reduction in stall speed, and defi ninatly have a lighter airplane (probably 80-100lbs lighter).=C2- I think most 65 powered piets come in around 620-640 lbs, Ours is 730lbs, and I be lieve the few other wooden corvair piets I have seen=C2-are within 10-20 lbs of ours.=C2-The corvair can sometimes be a R&D project untill you get it all wrung out, after that part is done it is like going out to start yo ur car and flying it around. If you decide corvair, do your homework, get Wynne's manual, and u se the resorces and people's knowlage and experiance who have built and flo wn the engine.=C2- It can be reliable,=C2-or it can kill you if you don 't learn from other's mistakes, and take advantage of others succeses and d evelopments. =C2- off my soapbox now =C2- Merry Christmas to all Shad =C2- =C2- =C2-www.buildersbooks.comhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator ?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 05:50:12 PM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag I think he did. Don't remember for sure but there are pics on westcoastpiet.com Also, his video of flying his Air Camper is really worth getting....and it shows the struts up close a lot of times. jm -----Original Message----- >From: Charles Campbell >Sent: Dec 23, 2010 10:46 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag > > >How about steel tube landing gear struts. Did he streamline them also or >did he use wood? > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jim Markle" >To: >Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 10:27 AM >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag > > >> >> >> Now THAT is INTERESTING! Well, so much for NOT streamlining struts and >> cabanes! I remember wondering why Chuck Gantzer went to so much trouble >> adding all that streamlining to his struts.... Hand carving balsa, >> overlaying fabric....but he reduced drag by a HUGE factor. >> >> Very interesting video and should be required viewing! >> >> Thanks Brian, very interesting. >> >> jm >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >>>From: brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com >>>Sent: Dec 23, 2010 10:01 AM >>>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag >>> >>> >>>Interesting to watch........ a little old school but the info about drag >>>is still relevant. >>> >>> >>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE >>> >>>Brian >>>SLC-UT >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:19 PM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag Yeah, I thought of that, too. Wish someone would do a similar test at 85 MPH. Wonder how that would come out? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gboothe5" Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 7:28 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag > > The old recording of the effects of different profiles on drag was > interesting, but, remember, drag is a function of velocity, too. The > examples shown were at 210 mph. Before anyone spends undue time, effort > and > expense on streamlining their steel landing gear, flying wires, etc, you > might consider that you will very seldom be flying any faster than 1/3 the > speed of the demonstration. I seriously doubt if it's worth the effort. > > Gary Boothe > > > ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:20 PM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag OK! OK! I give. Two struts it is with cross wires -- just like the plans say to do it! ----- Original Message ----- From: helspersew@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 7:21 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag Charles, You can build it any way you like...........but if you use those "V" struts, you will be forbidden from calling it a Pietenpol. Also, keep in mind, if you show up at Brodhead, you will be banished to the far side of the airport, where the spam cans park. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. -----Original Message----- From: Charles Campbell To: pietenpol-list Sent: Thu, Dec 23, 2010 12:38 pm Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag I wonder if anyone has ever considered using a V-type construction on the wing struts and doing away with the X-bracing of the wires. I am purchasing a set of Taylorcraft wing struts from a friend of mine who had to replace his because of some AD. He has punched the old struts and found that they are fine. I don't see why with the proper attachment to the fuselage that V struts wouldn't work on a Piet. Anyone who knows different, let me know. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Ruse" Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 11:55 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag > > > That video is absolutely fascinating. I've always heard that a round > wire or rod has a massive drag force, but I've never seen it quantified > like that. The small wire/large airfoil comparison is really > enlightening. Thanks for sharing that Brian. > > No wonder Vne seems to be a practical limit for my plane, rather than an > operational limit. :) I have approached Vne only a few times, in > incredibly smooth air. I thought the entire world was falling apart. I > am sure that Chuck Yeager himself had no greater sensation of speed when > breaking the sound barrier for the first time than I do when approaching > Vne in my plane. The noise and stress you feel on the airframe is an eye > opener. > > Steve Ruse > Norman, OK > > Quoting brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com: > >> >> Interesting to watch........ a little old school but the info about drag >> is still relevant. >> >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE >> >> Brian >> SLC-UT >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > _blank>www.aeroelectric.com /" target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com =_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List p://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 06:41:24 PM PST US From: gliderx5@comcast.net Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag I'm using V struts on my Piet. I hope to have it flying in 2011. I've seen pics of at least one other flying Piet with V struts. Malcolm Morrison http://home.comcast.net/~mmorrison123/piet.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Campbell" Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 1:34:22 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag I wonder if anyone has ever considered using a V-type construction on the wing struts and doing away with the X-bracing of the wires. I am purchasing a set of Taylorcraft wing struts from a friend of mine who had to replace his because of some AD. He has punched the old struts and found that they are fine. I don't see why with the proper attachment to the fuselage that V struts wouldn't work on a Piet. Anyone who knows different, let me know. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Ruse" Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 11:55 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag > > > That video is absolutely fascinating. I've always heard that a round > wire or rod has a massive drag force, but I've never seen it quantified > like that. The small wire/large airfoil comparison is really > enlightening. Thanks for sharing that Brian. > > No wonder Vne seems to be a practical limit for my plane, rather than an > operational limit. :) I have approached Vne only a few times, in > incredibly smooth air. I thought the entire world was falling apart. I > am sure that Chuck Yeager himself had no greater sensation of speed when > breaking the sound barrier for the first time than I do when approaching > Vne in my plane. The noise and stress you feel on the airframe is an eye > opener. > > Steve Ruse > Norman, OK > > Quoting brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com: > >> >> Interesting to watch........ a little old school but the info about drag >> is still relevant. >> >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE >> >> Brian >> SLC-UT >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 06:42:34 PM PST US From: Kip and Beth Gardner Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag SEE what I mean Charles - the retribution begins! On Dec 23, 2010, at 7:21 PM, helspersew@aol.com wrote: > Charles, > > You can build it any way you like...........but if you use those "V" > struts, you will be forbidden from calling it a Pietenpol. Also, > keep in mind, if you show up at Brodhead, you will be > banished to the far side of the airport, where the spam cans park. > > Dan Helsper > Poplar Grove, IL. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles Campbell > To: pietenpol-list > Sent: Thu, Dec 23, 2010 12:38 pm > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag > > > > > I wonder if anyone has ever considered using a V-type construction > on the > wing struts and doing away with the X-bracing of the wires. I am > purchasing > a set of Taylorcraft wing struts from a friend of mine who had to > replace > his because of some AD. He has punched the old struts and found > that they > are fine. I don't see why with the proper attachment to the > fuselage that V > struts wouldn't work on a Piet. Anyone who knows different, let me > know. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Ruse" > To: > Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 11:55 AM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag > > > > > > > > That video is absolutely fascinating. I've always heard that a > round > > wire or rod has a massive drag force, but I've never seen it > quantified > > like that. The small wire/large airfoil comparison is really > > enlightening. Thanks for sharing that Brian. > > > > No wonder Vne seems to be a practical limit for my plane, rather > than an > > operational limit. :) I have approached Vne only a few times, in > > incredibly smooth air. I thought the entire world was falling > apart. I > > am sure that Chuck Yeager himself had no greater sensation of > speed when > > breaking the sound barrier for the first time than I do when > approaching > > Vne in my plane. The noise and stress you feel on the airframe > is an eye > > opener. > > > > Steve Ruse > > Norman, OK > > > > Quoting brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com: > > > >> > >> Interesting to watch........ a little old school but the info > about drag > >> is still relevant. > >> > >> > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE > >> > >> Brian > >> SLC-UT > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _blank>www.aeroelectric.com > /" target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com > =_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com > blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > p://forums.matronics.com > > ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:05 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag From: Kenneth Bickers All, I found this video fascinating, too, as I've been thinking about whether an d how much to try to streamline various parts of the airplane. But Gary is probably right. It probably doesn't pay to get carried away with drag reduction. From one of my sources on aerodynamics, the formula for parasitic drag is as follows: drag force = =C2=BD=CF=81*V*2 =C3=97 coefficient of drag =C3=97 area Since, for a given airframe (coefficient of drag and area) and air density (the =CF=81 term), the only variable that varies is velocity (V). And that one varies alot in its impact. Reducing the velocity from 210 to 70 (i.e. a reduction to 1/3 the prior speed), will reduce the drag by a ratio of 9 to 1. So the key is to not try to fly your Pietenpol at 210 mph. Flying at 70 means that you can reduce your efforts at drag reduction to a ninth of what you'd otherwise have to spend time and money attempting. Cheers, Ken On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 7:08 PM, Charles Campbell wrote: > OK! OK! I give. Two struts it is with cross wires -- just like the plan s > say to do it! > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* helspersew@aol.com > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Thursday, December 23, 2010 7:21 PM > *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag > > Charles, > > You can build it any way you like...........but if you use those "V" > struts, you will be forbidden from calling it a Pietenpol. Also, keep in > mind, if you show up at Brodhead, you will be > banished to the far side of the airport, where the spam cans park. > > Dan Helsper > Poplar Grove, IL. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles Campbell > To: pietenpol-list > Sent: Thu, Dec 23, 2010 12:38 pm > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag > stream.net > > > > I wonder if anyone has ever considered using a V-type construction on the > wing struts and doing away with the X-bracing of the wires. I am purchas ing > a set of Taylorcraft wing struts from a friend of mine who had to replace > his because of some AD. He has punched the old struts and found that the y > are fine. I don't see why with the proper attachment to the fuselage tha t V > struts wouldn't work on a Piet. Anyone who knows different, let me know. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Ruse" > To: > Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 11:55 AM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag > > > > > > > > That video is absolutely fascinating. I've always heard that a round > > wire or rod has a massive drag force, but I've never seen it quantifie d > > like that. The small wire/large airfoil comparison is really > > enlightening. Thanks for sharing that Brian. > > > > No wonder Vne seems to be a practical limit for my plane, rather than an > > operational limit. :) I have approached Vne only a few times, in > > incredibly smooth air. I thought the entire world was falling apart. I > > am sure that Chuck Yeager himself had no greater sensation of speed wh en > > breaking the sound barrier for the first time than I do when approachi ng > > Vne in my plane. The noise and stress you feel on the airframe is an eye > > opener. > > > > Steve Ruse > > Norman, OK > > > > Quoting brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com: > > > > >> > >> Interesting to watch........ a little old school but the info about dr ag > >> is still relevant. > >> > >> > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE > > >> > >> Brian > >> SLC-UT > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _blank>www.aeroelectric.com > > /" target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com > =_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com > > blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > p://forums.matronics.com > > > * > > href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com > href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com* > > * > =========== =========== =========== ============* > > ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 06:49:01 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag From: mike Hardaway Gary is correct in that drag is a function of the square of velocity. However, the numbers in the video are relative values for the shapes shown, all at the same velocity. For the round tube and the airfoil that are the same thickness perpendicular to the relative wind, those relative values represent a comparison of the drag coefficients which are constant across the speed spectrum (until you get into transonic speeds). This means that a round lift strut on a Piet, say 2" diameter, will have about nine times the drag of a streamlined lift strut that is 2" thick, at all speeds attainable in a Piet, (even if Corvair powered). Both drag values will be much higher at 210 mph, but still have the same values relative to each other. Mike Hardaway On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 4:28 PM, Gboothe5 wrote: > > The old recording of the effects of different profiles on drag was > interesting, but, remember, drag is a function of velocity, too. The > examples shown were at 210 mph. Before anyone spends undue time, effort and > expense on streamlining their steel landing gear, flying wires, etc, you > might consider that you will very seldom be flying any faster than 1/3 the > speed of the demonstration. I seriously doubt if it's worth the effort. > > Gary Boothe > > ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:25 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft drag From: steve emo outside of being an academic discussion on the key drag parameters one should really think about what they want out of a Piet, and where the major drag contributors come from. Simply streamlining the gear legs will not likely make a large change in the total aircraft drag. Remember one still has how many feet of wire are in the slipstream, and what about the drag caused by the wings under-camber? I agree with the statement of return for your effort. Not to say that it wouldn't look cool...I just doubt if you could measure the difference. Steve On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:46 PM, mike Hardaway wrote: > Gary is correct in that drag is a function of the square of velocity. > However, the numbers in the video are relative values for the shapes shown, > all at the same velocity. For the round tube and the airfoil that are the > same thickness perpendicular to the relative wind, those relative values > represent a comparison of the drag coefficients which are constant across > the speed spectrum (until you get into transonic speeds). > This means that a round lift strut on a Piet, say 2" diameter, will have > about nine times the drag of a streamlined lift strut that is 2" thick, at > all speeds attainable in a Piet, (even if Corvair powered). > Both drag values will be much higher at 210 mph, but still have the same > values relative to each other. > Mike Hardaway > > On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 4:28 PM, Gboothe5 wrote: > >> >> The old recording of the effects of different profiles on drag was >> interesting, but, remember, drag is a function of velocity, too. The >> examples shown were at 210 mph. Before anyone spends undue time, effort >> and >> expense on streamlining their steel landing gear, flying wires, etc, you >> might consider that you will very seldom be flying any faster than 1/3 the >> speed of the demonstration. I seriously doubt if it's worth the effort. >> >> Gary Boothe >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com >> ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com >> et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com >> >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> le, List Admin. >> ========== >> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> ========== >> http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> >> >> >> > * > > ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 07:49:00 PM PST US From: "Ernie Moreno" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood legs Hello Greg, I saw your video of you landing your Piet and the question came up to what size bungee did you use and what was the gross weight of your Piet is ? Ernie Moreno Independence, Or Piet driver N2431 ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg Cardinal To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 12:07 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood legs Compared to the axle, wheels, cables, hardware, etc...the wood is a minor weight contributor to the landing gear system. The legs on NX18235 are ash and have held up to 250 hours of my abuse. Some of that abuse has been downright teeth-jarring. Merry Christmas, Greg Cardinal Minneapolis ----- Original Message ----- From: "bender" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 10:31 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood legs > > > i know this horse gets beaten a lot but.... i'm about to build the wooden > gear and i'm thinking about wood... my fuselage is all poplar and i'm > totally comfortable with the wood and it's strength.. but... do i use it > for the gear legs like i'm thinking i should ?? i've read that ash for the > legs is really overkill and i'm not a rebel but it's not going to be > spruce.. i really like picking boards from the pile myself and there is no > spruce in kentucky > > jeff > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324178#324178 > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:03 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aircraft drag From: "kevinpurtee" I'm thinking about wearing one of those teardrop shaped bike helmets... Apologies. do not archive -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324319#324319 ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:29 PM PST US From: "wayne@taildraggersinc.com" Subject: Pietenpol-List: The Rambo Piet These are photos from January 2010 of Gene Rambo's Pietenpol. I had originally interviewed Gene for a short write up on my website, but I still haven't gotten around to typing up the details. Yes, that makes me a bonafide slacker. Sorry, Gene. I did finally manage to put together a photo album worthy of Gene's Piet. Pics are here: http://www.taildraggersinc.com/images/gallery/gallery/rambo_piet/rambo_piet.html Or here if you like short URL's: http://tiny.cc/9jpkz Thanks, Wayne Bressler Taildraggers, Inc. www.taildraggersinc.com ________________________________ Message 60 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:12 PM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aircraft drag I bet you would really look sharp in it and you could fill in for the FTD delivery man. Couldn't help it Do not archive without pictures John In a message dated 12/24/2010 12:32:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, kevin.purtee@us.army.mil writes: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "kevinpurtee" I'm thinking about wearing one of those teardrop shaped bike helmets... Apologies. do not archive -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324319#324319 ________________________________ Message 61 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:35 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood legs From: "kevinpurtee" Dan - I made it to the pond with metal gear. Don't know nuthin' 'bout no wood gear. Chuck - after several hundred landings in Fat Girl I don't think there's ever been a question of when I reached the ground. Hoping someday to figure it out:). Axel do not archive -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324324#324324 ________________________________ Message 62 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:27 PM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Engine all it takes is money In a message dated 12/21/2010 2:19:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com writes: "Will it take a 150 Ezra?" do not archive. John Hofmann Vice-President, Information Technology The Rees Group, Inc. 2424 American Lane Madison, WI 53704 Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 Fax: 608.443.2474 Email: _jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com_ (mailto:jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com) On Dec 21, 2010, at 10:56 AM, _AmsafetyC@aol.com_ (mailto:AmsafetyC@aol.com) wrote: At all in for 8 k why not buy a used aircraft engine at around 800 to 100 0 hours ? Following the advice of Tony B it makes good sense, unless you're in for a bit more adventure than safe reliability. Juss axin John Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: Ryan Mueller <_rmueller23@gmail.com_ (mailto:rmueller23@gmail.com) > Sent: Tue, Dec 21, 2010 16:09:11 GMT+00:00 Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Engine If you are going to do the full boat WW conversion.....and probably looking at in the ballpark of $6000 to $7000 for your conversion/overhaul .....why not spend another grand for at least the Weseman BTA 5th bearing and not have to worry about the crank at all? In the overall grand scheme (or cos t) of things, $1000 is not that much.... Ryan On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Charles Campbell <_cncampbell@windstream.net_ (mailto:cncampbell@windstream.net) > wrote: Kip, I was considering the full WW conversion except for the 5th bearing. The engines without the 5th bearing operated OK for years. ----- Original Message ----- From: _Kip and Beth Gardner_ (mailto:kipandbeth@earthlink.net) Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 9:01 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Engine On political comment boards, 'encouraging them' is known as 'feeding the trolls' - it's like at the zoo - no feeding the animals! :) To be fair, there have been some issues that have come up over the years with regards to William Wynne's conversion, but he's been good about addressing them (costs more $, but they are addressed). Most of the issue s arise from the fact that WW has modified the engine to put out higher HP (he claims 100hp), changing the torque curve by using a different cam. The problems come from the fact that the lack of a support bearing at the prop end has resulted in a few snapped crank failures in high stress applications (mostly Corvairs installed in KR's). This is fixed by the ad dition of a 5th bearing, of which there are a couple after market choices that have been developed specifically for the aircraft conversion. Roy's Garage in Michigan is one example. Bernard, of course used a largely unmodified Corvair in his "Last Original". You could do the same by doing a basic WW conversion but leav ing in the original cam, and setting up a pressure cowl for cooling (thus allowing you to take out the blower fan) and probably get 50-60hp without (or at least fewer) concerns about the crank failing. After all, "The Last Original" has been flying continuously for nearly 50 years now. For myself, I'm going the full WW conversion route, with a 5th bearing from Roy's, becaus e I think his 5th bearing design is the best and easiest to incorporate into the engine. Kip Gardner On Dec 21, 2010, at 8:24 AM, Gary Boothe wrote: Chuck, PLEASE do not encourage them! You are on a good path. Become a WW student , and enjoy the process of building your own engine, too. Are you also on the Corvair List? There are a bunch of flying Pietenpols with Corvairs, including the Bell boys, all the Big Piets, PF Beck, Gardiner Mason, Axel Purtee just to name a few. There are a bunch more that will become airbor ne in a year or two. I think most comments are meant in jest, as in the following , as requested by Dan Helsper (thanks to John Hoffman): _http://gallery.me.com/johnnyskyrocket#100017_ (http://gallery.me.com/johnnyskyrocket#100017) BTWDan Helsper and PF Beck are also accomplished prop carvers. Wanna=99 start another debate about the pros & cons of carving your own prop? How about laminating your own struts, like Axel?..... Now look what you=99ve done! You got me started.. Painting with house paint, raising the turtledecks, modifying the center section, using motorcycle wheels, rear control stick push rods.th e list goes on. Point is: FAA calls it =98EXPERIMENTAL=99 for a very good rea son. I say, =9CGo ahead and experiment. It=99s your dream.=9D Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol (with laminated struts!) WW Corvair Conversion, Running! Tail done, Fuselage on gear (23 ribs down) ____________________________________ From: _owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com) <_owner-pietenpol-list -server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com) > <_pietenpol-list@matronics.com_ (mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com) > Sent: Tue Dec 21 05:43:24 2010 Subject: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Engine I have perceived some anti-Corvair bias on the list. Is this for real? I plan to use a Corvair engine in my Piet but if there is some REAL fault with the engine I need to know it now. Is the bias real or just done in jest? From watching William Wynne's videos I can't see anything that wou ld cause the bias unless it's just jealousy. Chuck _www.buildersbooks.com_ (http://www.buildersbooks.com/) _http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) _http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) Confidentiality Notice: This email is intended for the sole use of th e intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential, proprietary or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, you are no tified that any use, review, dissemination, copying or action taken based on thi s message or its attachments, if any, is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy or delete all copies of the original message and any attachments. Thank you .. style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">_www.aeroelectric.com _ (http://www.aeroelectric.com/) href="_http://www.buildersbooks.com_ (http://www.buildersbooks.com/) " style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">_www.buildersbooks.com _ (http://www.buildersbooks.com/) style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">_www.homebuilthelp.co m_ (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/) style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contri bution) href="_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) " style="color: blue ; text-decoration: underline; ">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) blue; text-decoration: underline; ">_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) href="_http://www.aeroelectric.com_ (http://www.aeroelectric.com/) ">_www.aeroelectric.com_ (http://www.aeroelectric.com/) href="_http://www.buildersbooks.com_ (http://www.buildersbooks.com/) ">_www.buildersbooks.com_ (http://www.buildersbooks.com/) href="_http://www.homebuilthelp.com_ (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/) ">_www.homebuilthelp.com_ (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/) href="_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matroni cs.com/contribution) ">_http://www.matronics.com/chref=_ (http://www.matronics.com/chref=) "_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?P ietenpol-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) ">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List_ (http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) href="_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) ">_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) _blank">www.aeroelectric.com .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List _tp://forums.matronics.com_ (tp://forums.matronics.com/) href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/co ntribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Lis t href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/co ntribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Lis t href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ======================== ============ (http://www.aeroelectric.com/) (http://www.buildersbooks.com/) (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ======================== ============ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ________________________________ Message 63 ____________________________________ Time: 09:54:11 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: The Rambo Piet From: "kevinpurtee" Man, he does good work! Thanks, Wayne. Looking forward to seeing it in person at Brodhead 2011, Gene. do not archive -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324326#324326 ________________________________ Message 64 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:29 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Age thread, Chet Peek From: "kevinpurtee" Rediscovered my copy while cleaning the hangar today. Brought it home for yet another read. Good stuff. do not archive -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324327#324327 ________________________________ Message 65 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:21 PM PST US From: "Greg Cardinal" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood legs 1/2" bungee cord, empty wt is 620# and gross wt is 1320 but has never flown that heavy. The practical gross wt is more like 1200 - 1250. Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: Ernie Moreno To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 9:44 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood legs Hello Greg, I saw your video of you landing your Piet and the question came up to what size bungee did you use and what was the gross weight of your Piet is ? Ernie Moreno Independence, Or Piet driver N2431 ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg Cardinal To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 12:07 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood legs Compared to the axle, wheels, cables, hardware, etc...the wood is a minor weight contributor to the landing gear system. The legs on NX18235 are ash and have held up to 250 hours of my abuse. Some of that abuse has been downright teeth-jarring. Merry Christmas, Greg Cardinal Minneapolis ----- Original Message ----- From: "bender" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 10:31 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood legs > > > i know this horse gets beaten a lot but.... i'm about to build the wooden > gear and i'm thinking about wood... my fuselage is all poplar and i'm > totally comfortable with the wood and it's strength.. but... do i use it > for the gear legs like i'm thinking i should ?? i've read that ash for the > legs is really overkill and i'm not a rebel but it's not going to be > spruce.. i really like picking boards from the pile myself and there is no > spruce in kentucky > > jeff > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324178#324178 > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 12/23/10 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.