---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 01/12/11: 48 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:04 AM - Re: RV10-List: Airfoil Drag Video... (GliderMike) 2. 12:09 AM - Re: Please Check My Math (alum.wing strut) (Clif Dawson) 3. 01:33 AM - Flying with no lift struts (Lawrence Williams) 4. 05:23 AM - Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting (amsafetyc@aol.com) 5. 05:46 AM - Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting (Kip and Beth Gardner) 6. 06:32 AM - Re: LG at last (TOM STINEMETZE) 7. 07:01 AM - Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting (Bill Church) 8. 07:02 AM - Complexity (Charles Campbell) 9. 07:10 AM - Re: Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting (Gboothe5) 10. 07:13 AM - Re: Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting (Charles Campbell) 11. 07:45 AM - Re: Complexity (Michael Perez) 12. 07:56 AM - Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting (dgaldrich) 13. 08:06 AM - Re: Complexity (Rick Holland) 14. 08:39 AM - Re: Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting (Kip and Beth Gardner) 15. 08:51 AM - Re: Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 16. 08:53 AM - Re: Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting (gboothe5@comcast.net) 17. 09:03 AM - Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting (Piet2112) 18. 09:12 AM - Re: Please Check My Math (alum.wing strut) (Dennis Vetter) 19. 09:50 AM - Re: Complexity (Charles Campbell) 20. 10:09 AM - Re: Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting (Kip and Beth Gardner) 21. 10:24 AM - Acceptable tolerances (Kringle) 22. 10:26 AM - Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting (DOMIT) 23. 10:53 AM - Re: Acceptable tolerances (Jack Phillips) 24. 01:26 PM - Re: Acceptable tolerances (KM Heide CPO/FAAOP) 25. 02:11 PM - Re: Acceptable tolerances (Charles Campbell) 26. 02:14 PM - Re: Complexity (Charles Campbell) 27. 02:42 PM - Re: Acceptable tolerances (Bill Church) 28. 02:45 PM - Trim set ups (brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com) 29. 02:50 PM - Re: Acceptable tolerances (Michael Perez) 30. 03:13 PM - Re: Trim set ups (helspersew@aol.com) 31. 04:41 PM - Re: Corvair Challenges and 5th Bearing (RBush96589@aol.com) 32. 04:47 PM - Re: Corvair Valve issue (kevinpurtee) 33. 04:48 PM - What luck . . . (tdudley@umn.edu) 34. 04:56 PM - Re: definition of UHMW for Ray (tdudley@umn.edu) 35. 05:07 PM - Re: Re: definition of UHMW for Ray (Ray Krause) 36. 05:08 PM - Re: What luck . . . (gboothe5@comcast.net) 37. 05:13 PM - Re: Corvair Valve issue (skellytown flyer) 38. 06:11 PM - How about this idea? (Bill Church) 39. 06:14 PM - Re: Trim set ups (Rick Holland) 40. 06:27 PM - Re: How about this idea? (Ryan Mueller) 41. 06:45 PM - Re: How about this idea? (Jack) 42. 07:06 PM - Re: Trim set ups (Kip and Beth Gardner) 43. 07:49 PM - Re: Trim set ups (brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com) 44. 07:49 PM - Re: How about this idea? (kevinpurtee) 45. 07:56 PM - Re: How about this idea? (Bill Church) 46. 08:11 PM - Re: Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting (Clif Dawson) 47. 09:32 PM - Re: Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting (Kimball Isaac) 48. 11:30 PM - Re: Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting (Clif Dawson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:04:19 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: RV10-List: Airfoil Drag Video... From: "GliderMike" Cover the wheels to eliminate the drag from the spokes. It works wonders on reducing the drag. Most difficult thing about a cover, is doing a clean attachment that is also easy to remove and put back on. I have a cover for the rear wheel on one of my bicycles, and one side had a drum brake on it. It was difficult to get the drum off to be able to R&R the cover on that side. The covered wheels are more in keeping with "The Look" anyway. Makes it even more of a chick magnet. I'm so far from the time I will need to be thinking about wheels, I'm not concerned about the engineering to do the wheel covers yet. I was going to have some wood for ribs ordered by now, but someone ran a red light, totaled my car, and kept on going, which sort of put a crunch in the finances again. I think I was lucky on the deal, cause they hit me probably doing 40 to 50 mph, at my door, and I never showed any signs of bruises or neck pain or any other problems. The police found the car, but no occupants. The people in the car that hit me didn't come out as well as I did, as there were 2 serious dents in the windshield from the inside. The police said they were surprised the people didn't end up in the hospital. -------- HOMEBUILDER Will WORK for Spruce Long flights, smooth air, and soft landings, GliderMike, aka Mike Glasgow Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326645#326645 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:09:39 AM PST US From: "Clif Dawson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Please Check My Math (alum.wing strut) No. If you look at the chart I sent the left end is the ROOT end at the fuselage. The air flowing over the wing is also flowing outwards on the bottom and inwards on the top which is where tip votices come from. The air gets to the tip, flows out from underneath, rolls over the top and spirals rearwards. It's actualy doing this a little bit all the way along but nothing like at the tip. So some of the lift near and at the tip is compromised. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF54SvC5ZAs Clif This would also imply that there is not as much lift generated at the root either. This would mean that most of the lift would be generated in the middle 80% (paredo principle anyone.) Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:33:18 AM PST US From: Lawrence Williams Subject: Pietenpol-List: Flying with no lift struts I remember the story about flying without lift struts from my early days at B'head sitting around with the pioneers. Seems like their point was that the cross cables were for the lifting loads (+g's) and the struts were for landing loads (-G's). The claim was that if the lift struts fell off in flight, the airframe wouldn't know the difference but the landing would have to be buttery smooth (like mine) to keep the wing from collapsing. Please DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS POST!! Also; do not archive. Larry ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:53 AM PST US From: "amsafetyc@aol.com" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting That wasn't in the drawing just something I decided to do as a safety precaution John Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: Owen Davies Sent: Wed, Jan 12, 2011 05:10:15 GMT+00:00 Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting On 1/11/2011 11:36 PM, amsafetyc@aol.com wrote: > Which is the reason for embedded metal at each end and midway not > halfway points able to hold thru bolting with less chance of tearing > out. Taking advantage of experienced builder comments on setting up a > vibration at jury strut location half way rather than a sorta midway > offset position. Sorry, I must have missed something in the drawing. Owen ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:46:15 AM PST US From: Kip and Beth Gardner Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting In response to some of the comments re the bolt pattern, embedded steel, etc. Michael said this was a preliminary drawing and I take it as such, but the concept is sound, I think. As for embedding steel in the wood strut, unless you were going to do that the entire length of the strut and use only the steel for attachment, what would be the point? Would not short lengths of steel be as prone to tear-out as the bolts? You could epoxy them in I suppose, but I've never been that impressed with the bonding strength of epoxy to steel. If you went with full length steel, what's the point to wood struts except appearance? As I stated in my original post asking bout this option, I'm making laminated struts with embedded carbon fiber running the length of the strut and additional fiber running 90 degrees to that at the ends. Of course there will be jury struts. Laminations will probably be done with West System epoxy. Does anyone find fault with that approach? KIp Gardner On Jan 11, 2011, at 9:05 PM, Michael Perez wrote: > For whomever it was asking, here is a simple drawing of a simple > idea. There is a lot of room for change and improvement here, this > was what I came up with right off the bat. > > Michael Perez > Karetaker Aero > www.karetakeraero.com > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:30 AM PST US From: "TOM STINEMETZE" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: LG at last Ben: Here is what you are looking for: This should be permanently posted somewhere - EVERYBODY should visit with Ken at least once. Ken Perkins 1480 Martway Olathe, Ks. 66061 (913) 764 6949 kenandvernaperkin s(at)sbcglobal.net Tom >>> Ben Charvet 1/11/2011 6:20 PM >>> Do you have any contact info for Ken? I noticed that Wag-Aero has struts for around $289, but I'd rather give Ken the business. Ben ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:48 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting From: "Bill Church" Kip wrote: "If you went with full length steel, what's the point to wood struts except appearance?" Well, IS there another reason to go with wood struts, other than appearance? Don't get me wrong, I really like the look of wood struts, and I have an idea that I think will work, but need to prove it out before sharing it with everyone. I just don't know of a reason why anyone would use wood struts rather than steel, other than for appearance. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326666#326666 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:51 AM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Complexity I don't see the need for all the discussion about wing-strut adjustment forks. Bernie's plans don't show any adjustment forks in the wing struts. He just put the wing in the position he wanted it, measured the distance between the attachment bolts at each end, and cut the strut to the proper length and installed it. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:18 AM PST US From: "Gboothe5" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting Is it not possible to just copy what has been successfully used already? Gary Boothe -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 7:00 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting Kip wrote: "If you went with full length steel, what's the point to wood struts except appearance?" Well, IS there another reason to go with wood struts, other than appearance? Don't get me wrong, I really like the look of wood struts, and I have an idea that I think will work, but need to prove it out before sharing it with everyone. I just don't know of a reason why anyone would use wood struts rather than steel, other than for appearance. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326666#326666 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:13:51 AM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting Why not just glue 1/16" plywood on metal struts if appearance is all you're interested in? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Church" Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 9:59 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting > > > Kip wrote: > "If you went with full length steel, what's the point to wood struts > except appearance?" > > Well, IS there another reason to go with wood struts, other than > appearance? > Don't get me wrong, I really like the look of wood struts, and I have an > idea that I think will work, but need to prove it out before sharing it > with everyone. I just don't know of a reason why anyone would use wood > struts rather than steel, other than for appearance. > > Bill C. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326666#326666 > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:42 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Complexity You are correct Charles. However, those "as drawn" struts are steel and hav e re-enforcing washers welded around the bolt holes. The hole is set back 3 /4" from the end. (Which you may already know.)- My first issue is my alu minum struts. I can mount the strut as drawn, but in that fashion, the alum inum will not be strong enough.- I need to find another means to do so an d as most, I figured I would make it adjustable for dihedral, or other twea king. - Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:10 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting From: "dgaldrich" I believe Douwe Blumberg has a rather hard earned but useful data point on the strength of wooden struts. I certainly don't have any idea of the severity of the ground loop/nose-over but the struts (cabanes and wing) apparently didn't fail. Maybe he can give us some more info. Nothing like a real life data point. Dave Aldrich do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326680#326680 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:45 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Complexity From: Rick Holland Some people (like me) added an adjustable fork on the bottom of the rear flying strut allowing minor adjustments for washout or to just equalize incidence on both sides. (Of course without any adjustment you can remake strut end fittings if adjustment is needed). On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 7:56 AM, Charles Campbell wrote: > I don't see the need for all the discussion about wing-strut adjustment > forks. Bernie's plans don't show any adjustment forks in the wing struts. > He just put the wing in the position he wanted it, measured the distance > between the attachment bolts at each end, and cut the strut to the proper > length and installed it. > > * > > * > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:39:26 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting From: Kip and Beth Gardner No Charles, you missed my point, appearance is not just what I'm interested in, although it is a factor. I want to use wood struts, not just have the appearance of wood, and I like laminations both for appearance and because they are stronger and it's easier to get a uniform final product. I generally don't like metal, it gives me the heebie jeebies to work with. I know it's unavoidable in building an airplane, but I like and prefer working with wood where possible. Gary, there are scant examples of wood struts on Piets out there, and none that I've seen that I'm entirely happy with. KIp Gardner On Jan 12, 2011, at 10:11 AM, Charles Campbell wrote: > > Why not just glue 1/16" plywood on metal struts if appearance is all you're interested in? > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Church" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 9:59 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting > > >> >> Kip wrote: >> "If you went with full length steel, what's the point to wood struts except appearance?" >> >> Well, IS there another reason to go with wood struts, other than appearance? >> Don't get me wrong, I really like the look of wood struts, and I have an idea that I think will work, but need to prove it out before sharing it with everyone. I just don't know of a reason why anyone would use wood struts rather than steel, other than for appearance. >> >> Bill C. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326666#326666 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:51:47 AM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting Not proposing to get involved within a contest of urination and whom can higher on the fire hydrant, I am using laminated wooden struts with steel embedded at what I alone considered critical points. Not that it matters much however when you add a piece of steel that is glued in with epoxy. I like the appearance of wood over full steel along with the cost of the laminated wood over aluminum so wood appeals to my aesthetic, economical and style needs as a slave to fashion. The embedded steel is 8 inches long and will be thru bolted at the top before being bolted to the mounting as such, will reduce the likelihood of splitting out at the mounting point closer to the end of the strut. Now because I prefer the look of wood in this application, the lamination is of whit ash and black walnut which matches all of the other outside wooden style components. For which I was sharing what I was doing as opposed to looking for conscious opinion of approval. So the point is, I like it, the metal extends bell above the attachment point and the thru bolting adds a margin of safety, which in my own mind reduces the remote possibility of breaking out holes at the lower end mounting point. This is all designed to provide me, piece of mind. Ultimately its my airplane, my decision and obviously I really have no particular bent on arguing the point, however if I get into a situation where the airframe is being stressed in excess of the tear out of 8 inches of steel thru bolted to wooden struts at 2 locations with appropriately sized AN bolts and nuts, than I have much bigger issues to contend with; for which aluminum struts, carbon fiber, full length embedded metal or and any other strut material combination cannot and or will not provide any better of a solution. Of course ruling out the possibility of missing the trap on the 4 wire and bolting to a missed trap go around. Fortunately I have yet to do that so am feeling rather confident in my strut plans. John In a message dated 1/12/2011 10:02:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, billspiet@sympatico.ca writes: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Bill Church" Kip wrote: "If you went with full length steel, what's the point to wood struts except appearance?" Well, IS there another reason to go with wood struts, other than appearance? Don't get me wrong, I really like the look of wood struts, and I have an idea that I think will work, but need to prove it out before sharing it with everyone. I just don't know of a reason why anyone would use wood struts rather than steel, other than for appearance. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326666#326666 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:53:20 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting From: gboothe5@comcast.net Douwe, John Greenlee, and, more recently, the notorius Axel Purtee, just to name a few, all have functioning attachments for wood struts. Since I'm not educated enough to figure out such things, I'll just copy what's already flying, but will be interested in seeing what you come up with. Gary Sent on the Sprint Now Network from my BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Kip and Beth Gardner Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com No Charles, you missed my point, appearance is not just what I'm interested in, although it is a factor. I want to use wood struts, not just have the appearance of wood, and I like laminations both for appearance and because they are stronger and it's easier to get a uniform final product. I generally don't like metal, it gives me the heebie jeebies to work with. I know it's unavoidable in building an airplane, but I like and prefer working with wood where possible. Gary, there are scant examples of wood struts on Piets out there, and none that I've seen that I'm entirely happy with. KIp Gardner On Jan 12, 2011, at 10:11 AM, Charles Campbell wrote: > > Why not just glue 1/16" plywood on metal struts if appearance is all you're interested in? > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Church" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 9:59 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting > > >> >> Kip wrote: >> "If you went with full length steel, what's the point to wood struts except appearance?" >> >> Well, IS there another reason to go with wood struts, other than appearance? >> Don't get me wrong, I really like the look of wood struts, and I have an idea that I think will work, but need to prove it out before sharing it with everyone. I just don't know of a reason why anyone would use wood struts rather than steel, other than for appearance. >> >> Bill C. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326666#326666 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:03:45 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting From: "Piet2112" Michael, Here are some photos of Kevin Purtee's Fat Bottom Girl that may help. Curt Merdan Flower Mound, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326700#326700 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/100_1161_113.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/100_1160_203.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/100_1145_100.jpg ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:19 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Please Check My Math (alum.wing strut) From: "Dennis Vetter" I've heard several times that on a pietenpol the front and rear spars and stuts carry about the same load. :? [/b] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326701#326701 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:12 AM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Complexity ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Holland To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 11:03 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Complexity Some people (like me) added an adjustable fork on the bottom of the rear flying strut allowing minor adjustments for washout or to just equalize incidence on both sides. (Of course without any adjustment you can remake strut end fittings if adjustment is needed). On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 7:56 AM, Charles Campbell wrote: I don't see the need for all the discussion about wing-strut adjustment forks. Bernie's plans don't show any adjustment forks in the wing struts. He just put the wing in the position he wanted it, measured the distance between the attachment bolts at each end, and cut the strut to the proper length and installed it. " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:52 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting From: Kip and Beth Gardner Thanks Curt! Kip G. On Jan 12, 2011, at 12:00 PM, Piet2112 wrote: > > Michael, > > Here are some photos of Kevin Purtee's Fat Bottom Girl that may help. > > Curt Merdan > Flower Mound, TX > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326700#326700 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/100_1161_113.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/100_1160_203.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/100_1145_100.jpg > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:24:34 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Acceptable tolerances From: "Kringle" When working with the wood portion of a Pietenpol, what are the acceptable tolerances? I've always heard; Home builder 1/4 inch Cabinet maker 1/8 Furniture Builder 1/16 -------- John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326719#326719 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:26:13 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting From: "DOMIT" I have seen that aircraft in person, and I can absolutely assure you that the pics do NOT do it justice. It is a beautiful airplane! -------- Brad "DOMIT" Smith First rule of ground school: This is the ground... don't hit it going fast. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326720#326720 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:33 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Acceptable tolerances All I can tell you is that when I was working on the F-16 Fighting Falcon design back in the mid '70's, the standard tolerance was +/- .030". Tight tolerances were +/- .010" and required considerable justification. If such tolerances are good enough for a supersonic jet fighter, they should be sufficient for a Pietenpol. Acceptable tolerances are whatever you accept, depending on the materials in question. If using T-88, a gap in the joint of up to 1/32" is acceptable. If using Resorcinol, that is unacceptable and will produce a very weak joint. The tolerance also depends on the measurement in question. For example, in making fittings, I would try to make them as accurate as possible and threw some out that were off by .020" in hole position. But when rigging the wings on my Pietenpol, I got the distance from wingtip to tailpost to be within about 1/16" of each other and was delighted to have it that close. Just remember that building an airplane is largely a series of alignment exercises. The more accurately you make the individual components, the easier the alignment will be. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kringle Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 1:22 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Acceptable tolerances When working with the wood portion of a Pietenpol, what are the acceptable tolerances? I've always heard; Home builder 1/4 inch Cabinet maker 1/8 Furniture Builder 1/16 -------- John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326719#326719 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:26:07 PM PST US From: KM Heide CPO/FAAOP Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Acceptable tolerances Pietenpol builder 1/32" --- On Wed, 1/12/11, Kringle wrote: > From: Kringle > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Acceptable tolerances > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, January 12, 2011, 12:22 PM > --> Pietenpol-List message posted > by: "Kringle" > > When working with the wood portion of a Pietenpol, what are > the acceptable tolerances? I've always heard; > > Home builder 1/4 inch > Cabinet maker 1/8 > Furniture Builder 1/16 > > -------- > John > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326719#326719 > > > > > > > > Email Forum - > FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:47 PM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Acceptable tolerances Jack, I once (a long time ago) took an aeronautical drafting course and our drafting had to be +/- 0.040 inch. That's a bit closer than most of the Pietenpol drawings. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Phillips" Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 1:50 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Acceptable tolerances > > > > All I can tell you is that when I was working on the F-16 Fighting Falcon > design back in the mid '70's, the standard tolerance was +/- .030". Tight > tolerances were +/- .010" and required considerable justification. If > such > tolerances are good enough for a supersonic jet fighter, they should be > sufficient for a Pietenpol. > > Acceptable tolerances are whatever you accept, depending on the materials > in > question. If using T-88, a gap in the joint of up to 1/32" is acceptable. > If using Resorcinol, that is unacceptable and will produce a very weak > joint. > > The tolerance also depends on the measurement in question. For example, > in > making fittings, I would try to make them as accurate as possible and > threw > some out that were off by .020" in hole position. But when rigging the > wings on my Pietenpol, I got the distance from wingtip to tailpost to be > within about 1/16" of each other and was delighted to have it that close. > > Just remember that building an airplane is largely a series of alignment > exercises. The more accurately you make the individual components, the > easier the alignment will be. > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" > Raleigh, NC > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kringle > Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 1:22 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Acceptable tolerances > > > When working with the wood portion of a Pietenpol, what are the acceptable > tolerances? I've always heard; > > Home builder 1/4 inch > Cabinet maker 1/8 > Furniture Builder 1/16 > > -------- > John > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326719#326719 > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:14:34 PM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Complexity I know the PA22/20 that I rebuilt back in the 80's had an adjustable fitting on the rear struts. Had to use them when cranking in the washout in the wing tips. ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Campbell To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 12:47 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Complexity ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Holland To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 11:03 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Complexity Some people (like me) added an adjustable fork on the bottom of the rear flying strut allowing minor adjustments for washout or to just equalize incidence on both sides. (Of course without any adjustment you can remake strut end fittings if adjustment is needed). On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 7:56 AM, Charles Campbell wrote: I don't see the need for all the discussion about wing-strut adjustment forks. Bernie's plans don't show any adjustment forks in the wing struts. He just put the wing in the position he wanted it, measured the distance between the attachment bolts at each end, and cut the strut to the proper length and installed it. " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:42:58 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Acceptable tolerances From: "Bill Church" I don't think there can be one general tolerance for everything on the whole project. The fuselage could be plus or minus a half inch (in length or width) and it wouldn't really make a difference. But if your top cross pieces were 1/8" longer or shorter than the bottom cross pieces, then your fuselage wouldn't be "square", as it needs to be. Similarly, if the rib profile is out by 1/8", it could potentially affect the aerodynamics of the wing. On the other hand, if the chord of the wing ended up 1/4" big or small, the difference wouldn't be noticeable. Or if the wingspan was 2" longer than expected, it would likely have no ill effects. The more accurately that the parts are made, the better they will all fit together, and the happier you'll be. More important than dimensional accuracy is dimensional consistency. Additionally, keeping things square (where they are supposed to be square) and symmetrical is extremely important. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326746#326746 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:45:23 PM PST US From: brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Trim set ups I believe it's time for a fresh thread.......... Could those of you with trim systems "flying and not" please post pics of your trim tab, and your trim adjustment mechanism in the cockpit. Thanks. Brian SLC-UT ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:50:22 PM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Acceptable tolerances To expand a little on that...most of the machining jobs I have done for work had a tolerance of about .010". As noted, it all depended on the material and the parts function. If one part needed to fit within another, they would specify, say, +.010, -.005...to avoid binding of the two parts. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com --- On Wed, 1/12/11, Jack Phillips wrote: > From: Jack Phillips > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Acceptable tolerances > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, January 12, 2011, 1:50 PM > --> Pietenpol-List message posted > by: "Jack Phillips" > > > All I can tell you is that when I was working on the F-16 > Fighting Falcon > design back in the mid '70's, the standard tolerance was > +/- .030". Tight > tolerances were +/- .010" and required considerable > justification. If such > tolerances are good enough for a supersonic jet fighter, > they should be > sufficient for a Pietenpol. > > Acceptable tolerances are whatever you accept, depending on > the materials in > question. If using T-88, a gap in the joint of up to > 1/32" is acceptable. > If using Resorcinol, that is unacceptable and will produce > a very weak > joint. > > The tolerance also depends on the measurement in > question. For example, in > making fittings, I would try to make them as accurate as > possible and threw > some out that were off by .020" in hole position. But > when rigging the > wings on my Pietenpol, I got the distance from wingtip to > tailpost to be > within about 1/16" of each other and was delighted to have > it that close. > > Just remember that building an airplane is largely a series > of alignment > exercises. The more accurately you make the > individual components, the > easier the alignment will be. > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" > Raleigh, NC > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] > On Behalf Of Kringle > Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 1:22 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Acceptable tolerances > > > When working with the wood portion of a Pietenpol, what are > the acceptable > tolerances? I've always heard; > > Home builder 1/4 inch > Cabinet maker 1/8 > Furniture Builder 1/16 > > -------- > John > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326719#326719 > > > > > > > > > > > > Email Forum - > FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:13:32 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Trim set ups From: helspersew@aol.com My airplane is flying, and I really like Jack Phillip's trim system. Mine w orks OK, but if I had seen his first I would have gone in more of that dire ction. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. -----Original Message----- From: brian.e.jardine Sent: Wed, Jan 12, 2011 4:45 pm Subject: Pietenpol-List: Trim set ups I believe it=99s time for a fresh thread. Could those of you with trim systems =9Cflying and not=9D plea se post pics of your trim tab, and your trim adjustment mechanism in the co ckpit. Thanks. Brian SLC-UT -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 04:41:33 PM PST US From: RBush96589@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Challenges and 5th Bearing Hi Shad, sorry to be so long to reply.I just got back home from a run down to FL. and AL. It's back been back together and running since the corvair college down in SC that P F Beck and the gang at Barnwell airport hosted.Really a fun weekend and a good bunch of folks down there.I plan on going to Brodhead also so see you there. Randy Bush do not archive ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 04:47:11 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair Valve issue From: "kevinpurtee" Hi Shad - I will certainly try that before I yank the head! I've run 100LL through the motor exclusively. Forgive a dumb question, please: pull the plug, remove the valve keeper, push the valve into the cylinder a little bit, apply the valve compound around the seat (with what?), then move the valve against the seat in a circle? You know a lot more about mechanicin' than I do. I have every intention of making Brodhead. The only thing that would screw it up is work, but hopefully it'll happen. Going to do my best. Thanks, Kevin -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326769#326769 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 04:48:24 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: What luck . . . From: "tdudley@umn.edu" I started building this fall and have the ribs almost done (5 left) and finished rabbetting the wood for the tail-section this past weekend. I've been a bit worried about welding and the metal parts since I've no real experience in this. My wife showed me a flyer for a community-ed class called "Intro to Welding". Figured it would be something to at least try. Last evening I went to the first class and struck up a conversation with the instructor, a professional blacksmith who works out of his own shop. I could hardly believe it when I found out he lives a block away and I've been passing his house every day for the last 3 years without knowing. I can hardly believe my luck--I will only have to walk down the street to get help with the metal fittings! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326771#326771 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 04:56:02 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: definition of UHMW for Ray From: "tdudley@umn.edu" UHMW polyethylene is used in total knee and hip replacements. I've put a bit of those parts together over the last few years. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326772#326772 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 05:07:53 PM PST US From: "Ray Krause" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: definition of UHMW for Ray Thanks! When I use it, I will keep some for my hip replacement. What tolerances do I need to meet for that? Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 4:53 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: definition of UHMW for Ray > > UHMW polyethylene is used in total knee and hip replacements. I've put a > bit of those parts together over the last few years. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326772#326772 > > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:24 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: What luck . . . From: gboothe5@comcast.net Tdudley, You are indeed lucky! And I predict that, of all the new skills many of us have to accomplish, you will most enjoy overcoming your welding deficiencies! It's a great feeling to look proudly on your own work, even if it isn't perfect. Happy building, Gary Boothe ------Original Message------ From: tdudley@umn.edu Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: What luck . . . Sent: Jan 12, 2011 4:46 PM I started building this fall and have the ribs almost done (5 left) and finished rabbetting the wood for the tail-section this past weekend. I've been a bit worried about welding and the metal parts since I've no real experience in this. My wife showed me a flyer for a community-ed class called "Intro to Welding". Figured it would be something to at least try. Last evening I went to the first class and struck up a conversation with the instructor, a professional blacksmith who works out of his own shop. I could hardly believe it when I found out he lives a block away and I've been passing his house every day for the last 3 years without knowing. I can hardly believe my luck--I will only have to walk down the street to get help with the metal fittings! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326771#326771 Sent on the Sprint Now Network from my BlackBerry ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 05:13:04 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair Valve issue From: "skellytown flyer" another thing that could possibly break it up is to try and press the valve in against the spring and let it snap shut a few times. I believe the aircraft mechanics do that at times on aircraft engines.not sure just how to accomplish it on a corvair because I'm sure there isn't a whole lot of stem height above the spring but there should be a way to rig something to do it. I think I might try that first just to avoid leaving any compound in the chamber.Raymond Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326775#326775 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:07 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: How about this idea? From: "Bill Church" Here's an idea: How about building an entire fuselage of wood with steel strips embedded inside? Or maybe even the other way around (wood filled steel tubes). Just a thought. BC do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326783#326783 ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 06:14:19 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Trim set ups From: Rick Holland RWxlY3RyaWMgdHJpbSBvbiBhIFBpZXQ/IFlvdSBtdXN0IGJlIGtpZGRpbmchCgoKCk9uIFdlZCwg SmFuIDEyLCAyMDExIGF0IDM6MjIgUE0sIDxicmlhbi5lLmphcmRpbmVAbC0zY29tLmNvbT4gd3Jv dGU6Cgo+IEkgYmVsaWV2ZSBpdJJzIHRpbWUgZm9yIGEgZnJlc2ggdGhyZWFkhYWFLiBDb3VsZCB0 aG9zZSBvZiB5b3Ugd2l0aCB0cmltCj4gc3lzdGVtcyCTZmx5aW5nIGFuZCBub3SUICBwbGVhc2Ug cG9zdCBwaWNzIG9mIHlvdXIgdHJpbSB0YWIsIGFuZCB5b3VyIHRyaW0KPiBhZGp1c3RtZW50IG1l Y2hhbmlzbSBpbiB0aGUgY29ja3BpdC4gIFRoYW5rcy4KPgo+Cj4KPgo+Cj4gQnJpYW4KPgo+IFNM Qy1VVAo+Cj4gKgo+Cj4gXy09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0KPiBfLT0gICAgICAgICAgLSBUaGUgUGlldGVucG9sLUxpc3Qg RW1haWwgRm9ydW0gLQo+IF8tPSBVc2UgdGhlIE1hdHJvbmljcyBMaXN0IEZlYXR1cmVzIE5hdmln YXRvciB0byBicm93c2UKPiBfLT0gdGhlIG1hbnkgTGlzdCB1dGlsaXRpZXMgc3VjaCBhcyBMaXN0 IFVuL1N1YnNjcmlwdGlvbiwKPiBfLT0gQXJjaGl2ZSBTZWFyY2ggJiBEb3dubG9hZCwgNy1EYXkg QnJvd3NlLCBDaGF0LCBGQVEsCj4gXy09IFBob3Rvc2hhcmUsIGFuZCBtdWNoIG11Y2ggbW9yZToK PiBfLT0KPiBfLT0gICAtLT4gaHR0cDovL3d3dy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tL05hdmlnYXRvcj9QaWV0 ZW5wb2wtTGlzdAo+IF8tPQo+IF8tPT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09Cj4gXy09ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgLSBNQVRST05JQ1Mg V0VCIEZPUlVNUyAtCj4gXy09IFNhbWUgZ3JlYXQgY29udGVudCBhbHNvIGF2YWlsYWJsZSB2aWEg dGhlIFdlYiBGb3J1bXMhCj4gXy09Cj4gXy09ICAgLS0+IGh0dHA6Ly9mb3J1bXMubWF0cm9uaWNz LmNvbQo+IF8tPQo+IF8tPT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09Cj4gXy09ICAgICAgICAgICAgIC0gTGlzdCBDb250cmlidXRpb24g V2ViIFNpdGUgLQo+IF8tPSAgVGhhbmsgeW91IGZvciB5b3VyIGdlbmVyb3VzIHN1cHBvcnQhCj4g Xy09ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgLU1hdHQgRHJhbGxlLCBMaXN0IEFkbWlu Lgo+IF8tPSAgIC0tPiBodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vY29udHJpYnV0aW9uCj4gXy09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT0KPiAqCj4KPgoKCi0tIApSaWNrIEhvbGxhbmQKQ2FzdGxlIFJvY2ssIENvbG9yYWRvCgoiTG9n aWMgaXMgYSB3cmVhdGggb2YgcHJldHR5IGZsb3dlcnMsIHRoYXQgc21lbGwgYmFkIgo ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 06:27:27 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: How about this idea? From: Ryan Mueller Or....what about steel filled wood tubes, with wood strips embedded in the steel filling, and all of it wrapped with carbon fiber and sheathed in a Goncalo Alves veneer? Mmm... Ryan do not archive On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Bill Church wrote: > billspiet@sympatico.ca> > > Here's an idea: > How about building an entire fuselage of wood with steel strips embedded > inside? > Or maybe even the other way around (wood filled steel tubes). > > Just a thought. > > BC > > do not archive > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326783#326783 > > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:19 PM PST US From: "Jack" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: How about this idea? Bill, 4130 or 1018, Spruce, poplar or douglas fir? Jack DSM Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 8:09 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: How about this idea? Here's an idea: How about building an entire fuselage of wood with steel strips embedded inside? Or maybe even the other way around (wood filled steel tubes). Just a thought. BC do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326783#326783 ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:02 PM PST US From: Kip and Beth Gardner Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Trim set ups Now I seen ever-thang! Seriously, it makes sense if you have an electrical system already (like a crank-snappin' Corvair), and if it weighs less than the mechanical alternatives. How about some details? I kind of like it. Kip G. On Jan 12, 2011, at 9:11 PM, Rick Holland wrote: > Electric trim on a Piet? You must be kidding! > > > On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 3:22 PM, wrote: > I believe it=92s time for a fresh thread=85=85=85. Could those of you with > trim systems =93flying and not=94 please post pics of your trim tab, > and your trim adjustment mechanism in the cockpit. Thanks. > > > Brian > > SLC-UT > > > " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > -- > Rick Holland > Castle Rock, Colorado > > "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" > ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 07:49:57 PM PST US From: brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Trim set ups SSBsaWtlIHRoZSBlbGVjdHJpYyB0cmltLi4uanVzdCB3aGF0IEkgaGFkIGluIG1pbmQuIERvIG5v dCBhcmNoaXZlDQogDQoNCkZyb206IFJpY2sgSG9sbGFuZCBbbWFpbHRvOmF0NzAwMGZ0QGdtYWls LmNvbV0gDQpTZW50OiBXZWRuZXNkYXksIEphbnVhcnkgMTIsIDIwMTEgMDc6MTEgUE0NClRvOiBw aWV0ZW5wb2wtbGlzdEBtYXRyb25pY3MuY29tIDxwaWV0ZW5wb2wtbGlzdEBtYXRyb25pY3MuY29t PiANClN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBQaWV0ZW5wb2wtTGlzdDogVHJpbSBzZXQgdXBzIA0KIA0KDQpFbGVj dHJpYyB0cmltIG9uIGEgUGlldD8gWW91IG11c3QgYmUga2lkZGluZyENCg0KDQoNCg0KT24gV2Vk LCBKYW4gMTIsIDIwMTEgYXQgMzoyMiBQTSwgPGJyaWFuLmUuamFyZGluZUBsLTNjb20uY29tPiB3 cm90ZToNCg0KDQoJSSBiZWxpZXZlIGl04oCZcyB0aW1lIGZvciBhIGZyZXNoIHRocmVhZOKApuKA puKApi4gQ291bGQgdGhvc2Ugb2YgeW91IHdpdGggdHJpbSBzeXN0ZW1zIOKAnGZseWluZyBhbmQg bm904oCdICBwbGVhc2UgcG9zdCBwaWNzIG9mIHlvdXIgdHJpbSB0YWIsIGFuZCB5b3VyIHRyaW0g YWRqdXN0bWVudCBtZWNoYW5pc20gaW4gdGhlIGNvY2twaXQuICBUaGFua3MuDQoNCgkgDQoNCgkg DQoNCglCcmlhbg0KDQoJU0xDLVVUDQoNCgkNCgkNCgkiIHRhcmdldD0iX2JsYW5rIj5odHRwOi8v d3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vTmF2aWdhdG9yP1BpZXRlbnBvbC1MaXN0DQoJdHA6Ly9mb3J1bXMu bWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbQ0KCV9ibGFuayI+aHR0cDovL3d3dy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tL2NvbnRyaWJ1 dGlvbg0KCQ0KCQ0KDQoNCg0KDQotLSANClJpY2sgSG9sbGFuZA0KQ2FzdGxlIFJvY2ssIENvbG9y YWRvDQoNCiJMb2dpYyBpcyBhIHdyZWF0aCBvZiBwcmV0dHkgZmxvd2VycywgdGhhdCBzbWVsbCBi YWQiIA0KDQo ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 07:49:57 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: How about this idea? From: "kevinpurtee" It's all gotta be aircraft grade, so 4130 and spruce. -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326800#326800 ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:13 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: How about this idea? From: "Bill Church" Jack, Yes. BC > Bill, > 4130 or 1018, Spruce, poplar or douglas fir? > Jack > DSM > Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326803#326803 ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:53 PM PST US From: "Clif Dawson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting You mean like these two? The first flew for many years didn't it? There was an article way back then on the construction of these struts. Wood is just as much an engineering material as steel, aluminum, carbon fiber or anything else. You just have to work within it's strengths. Which means you have to know them. In this case it's "shear parallel to the grain" in the chart I've sent. Bolts in wood tend to pull a plug the width of the bolt out. This means you have two surfaces to calculate for. This means that if you have a bolt 1" from the end of a board and it's 1" thick you have 1X1+1X1 surface area. In Sitka that means it will take 2,240 lb to pull that bolt out, West. Hem.=2,340 lb and DG fir, only 2,280. If you're going to be doing your own thing with wood then please cut+paste this chart and use it. It always seems incredible to me that we trust ourselves to wood spars without a thought but can't get heads around anything else made of it. :-) Clif IT COULDN'T BE DONE, BY EDGAR A. GUEST SOMEBODY SAID THAT IT COULDN'T BE DONE, BUT HE WITH A CHUCKLE REPLIED THAT "MAYBE IT COULDN'T," BUT HE WOULD BE ONE WHO WOULDN'T SAY SO TILL HE'D TRIED. SO HE BUCKLED RIGHT IN WITH A TRACE OF A GRIN, AND IF HE WORRIED, HE CERTAINLY HID IT. HE STARTED TO SING AS HE TACKLED THE THING THAT COULDN'T BE DONE, AND HE DID IT. SOMEBODY SCOFFED: "OH, YOU'LL NEVER DO THAT; AT LEAST NO ONE EVER HAS DONE IT"; BUT HE TOOK OFF HIS COAT AND HE TOOK OFF HIS HAT, AND THE FIRST THING HE KNEW HE'D BEGUN IT. WITH A LIFT OF HIS CHIN AND A BIT OF A GRIN, WITHOUT ANY DOUBTING OR QUIT IT, HE STARTED TO SING AS HE TACKLED THE THING THAT COULD'T BE DONE AND HE DID IT. THERE ARE THOUSANDS TO TELL YOU IT CANNOT BE DONE, THERE ARE THOUSANDS TO PROPHESY FAILURE; THERE ARE THOUSANDS TO POINT OUT TO YOU ONE BY ONE THE DANGERS THAT WAIT TO ASSAIL YOU. BUT JUST BUCKLE IN WITH A BIT OF A GRIN, JUST TAKE OFF YOUR COAT AND GO TO IT; JUST START TO SING AS YOU TACKLE THE THING THAT "CANNOT BE DONE," AND YOU'LL DO IT. > > Is it not possible to just copy what has been successfully used already? > > Gary Boothe ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:48 PM PST US From: Kimball Isaac Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting Hey Clif I know its late and I'm rubbing my eyes but are those horner wingtips on N3513 if so do they really make a difference? Kim On 12/01/2011 8:09 PM, Clif Dawson wrote: > You mean like these two? The first flew for many > years didn't it? There was an article way back then > on the construction of these struts. Wood is just > as much an engineering material as steel, aluminum, > carbon fiber or anything else. You just have to > work within it's strengths. Which means you have > to know them. In this case it's "shear parallel to the > grain" in the chart I've sent. Bolts in wood tend to > pull a plug the width of the bolt out. This means > you have two surfaces to calculate for. This means > that if you have a bolt 1" from the end of a board > and it's 1" thick you have 1X1+1X1 surface area. > In Sitka that means it will take 2,240 lb to pull > that bolt out, West. Hem.=2,340 lb and DG fir, > only 2,280. > > If you're going to be doing your own thing with wood > then please cut+paste this chart and use it. > > It always seems incredible to me that we trust ourselves > to wood spars without a thought but can't get heads > around anything else made of it. :-) > > Clif > > IT COULDN'T BE DONE, BY EDGAR A. GUEST > > > SOMEBODY SAID THAT IT COULDN'T BE DONE, > > BUT HE WITH A CHUCKLE REPLIED > > THAT "MAYBE IT COULDN'T," BUT HE WOULD BE ONE > > WHO WOULDN'T SAY SO TILL HE'D TRIED. > > SO HE BUCKLED RIGHT IN WITH A TRACE OF A GRIN, > > AND IF HE WORRIED, HE CERTAINLY HID IT. > > HE STARTED TO SING AS HE TACKLED THE THING > > THAT COULDN'T BE DONE, AND HE DID IT. > > > SOMEBODY SCOFFED: "OH, YOU'LL NEVER DO THAT; > > AT LEAST NO ONE EVER HAS DONE IT"; > > BUT HE TOOK OFF HIS COAT AND HE TOOK OFF HIS HAT, > > AND THE FIRST THING HE KNEW HE'D BEGUN IT. > > WITH A LIFT OF HIS CHIN AND A BIT OF A GRIN, > > WITHOUT ANY DOUBTING OR QUIT IT, > > HE STARTED TO SING AS HE TACKLED THE THING > > THAT COULD'T BE DONE AND HE DID IT. > > > THERE ARE THOUSANDS TO TELL YOU IT CANNOT BE DONE, > > THERE ARE THOUSANDS TO PROPHESY FAILURE; > > THERE ARE THOUSANDS TO POINT OUT TO YOU ONE BY ONE > > THE DANGERS THAT WAIT TO ASSAIL YOU. > > BUT JUST BUCKLE IN WITH A BIT OF A GRIN, > > JUST TAKE OFF YOUR COAT AND GO TO IT; > > JUST START TO SING AS YOU TACKLE THE THING > > THAT "CANNOT BE DONE," AND YOU'LL DO IT. > > >> >> Is it not possible to just copy what has been successfully used already? >> >> Gary Boothe ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:42 PM PST US From: "Clif Dawson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Adjustable Wood Wing Strut Fitting I just found the March 1970 Sport Flying mag with the article on this plane. It's Clyde Buckley's. It appears that the tip bows have been left off leaving a flat tip. There's no plate there. I've never liked those things. I think they're supremely ugly and I notice nobody is using them. There are other things that are, like drooped tips and winglets. It makes me wonder why. Even flat tips like these look, to me anyway, kind of sawed off, unfinished. Oh, by the way, has anyone ever heard of "cellulose reinforced lignin composite"? Clif > > Hey Clif > I know its late and I'm rubbing my eyes but are those horner wingtips on > N3513 if so do they really make a difference? > Kim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.