---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 01/20/11: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:39 AM - Model A Mag drive (helspersew@aol.com) 2. 05:41 AM - Fuel tank placement. was Center section butt ribs (Ben Charvet) 3. 05:46 AM - Re: Model A Mag drive (Jack Phillips) 4. 07:01 AM - Re: access panel for bellcrank (Woodflier@aol.com) 5. 09:00 AM - Re: Model A Mag drive (bender) 6. 10:57 AM - Re: Re: Model A Mag drive (Rick Holland) 7. 12:01 PM - Re: Re: Model A Mag drive (Doug Dever) 8. 01:10 PM - Re: Re: Model A Mag drive (Rick Holland) 9. 02:36 PM - Re: Re: Model A Mag drive (Doug Dever) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:39:16 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Model A Mag drive From: helspersew@aol.com Listers, Here is a copy of an email I just sent to Larry Morlock detailing my 2nd ma g drive troubles, after he inquired about it. Hi Larry, I had 13 hours on her (in flight). Maybe another 10 on the ground. During t he flight the trouble occurred, I had checked the mags (in flight) individu ally before I left the proximity of the airport. All seemed well so I ventu red out. The engine started running rough, and I checked the mags to discov er that the cam gear-driven mag appeared to be completely dead. As of this date, I am still unsure why the engine continued running rough after I shut off that mag, and switched over to the crank mag. That is still a mystery to me. The only thing I can think of, is that in my panic, maybe I left the switch on "both" and the cam-driven mag was catching periodically (because of the partial tooth situation) and it was sending wild sparks in there. So I am not quite sure even now what happened, or exactly when. As you can see from the photos about 30% of the gear teeth are completely cracked off. The remaining teeth appear to be "worn" off. This is my speculation: There was insufficient clearance between the aluminum timing gear and the steel magneto gear. I had no trouble inserting and mounting that magneto at all, so no red flags were raised at that time. In my ignorance, I did not check the clearance between the gears. Over a period of hours, pressure was exert ed onto the aluminum gear teeth and the metal failed on a number of the tee th, either from fatigue, or just the continued "mooshing" of the steel mag gear teeth against the aluminum teeth. When I contacted Ken Perkins, he speculated the same, and said the fix was adding shims (or extra gasket thickness) between the mag housing (casting t hat the mag is bolted to) and the engine block to achieve a clearance of fo ur thousandths. This action would necessarily give more clearance between t he two gears in question. But upon further examination, this action creates another problem. It is kind of hard to explain in an email, but there are three bolt holes that would have to be elongated, in the flat timing gear c over, in order to allow those three timing gear cover bolts to line up with the holes in the back of the engine block. I guess this would not be that big of a deal because only a few thousands of an inch would be needed. I myself have decided to go in another direction as far as the 2nd (redunda nt) ignition system goes (mostly to satisfy my wife). The Model A car suppl iers sell an electronic ignition module that drops into a traditional distr ibutor body. It will appear to be a stock Model A ignition system. Downside for me, is that I need a battery. I found a light weight battery at Wicks (4.4 lbs) that I will use. Another hang up is how is it recharged? I will m aybe get a solar cell to put out when I am on the ground. Who knows, after you have proven the viability of the Perkins mag drive, I might go back to that! BTW Falluca told me that the aluminum gear should have had no problem with this set-up if clearances were correct. I think you would be wise to, during your on-ground break-in period, perio dically remove that mag and peer in there to closely inspect that gear to s ee how it is doing. BTW, there was no apparent wear or damage that I can de tect on the steel mag gear. I am willing to send you this aluminum gear for your close inspection. You may be able to glean some clues upon close examination. Let me know and I w ill UPS or mail it over to you. Please ask me more specific questions if you have them, and I will be more than glad to help however I can. Dan ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:16 AM PST US From: Ben Charvet Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tank placement. was Center section butt ribs I have the nose tank, and the effect of fuel burn off is barely noticeable as far as pitch trim. Ben On 1/19/2011 4:53 PM, TOM STINEMETZE wrote: > *Pros: 1) Center of Gravity does not change as fuel is burned. 2) > You can always have a nose tank (header tank) in addition if you want > extra range or put your storage area in the nose.* > *Cons: 1) Any fuel you spill goes directly into the pilot's seat where > it lies in wait; 2) You have to have a ladder to get the fuel up > there. 3) Unsightly hoses, valves, fuel guage, etc. hanging down > below the wing (and directly over the passenger's head.)* > ** > *Hum, that seems to come out in favor of putting the tank in the nose > which is probably why I chose to put mine in the center section.* > ** > *Stinemetze* > * > * > >>> "Kringle" 1/19/2011 3:32 PM >>> > What are the pros and cons of putting a fuel tank in the wing or using > it for storage? What are most doing? > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:46:13 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Model A Mag drive Electronic ignition on a Model A? What would Bernard say? He would say "Do Not Archive" Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of helspersew@aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 7:30 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Model A Mag drive Listers, Here is a copy of an email I just sent to Larry Morlock detailing my 2nd mag drive troubles, after he inquired about it. Hi Larry, I had 13 hours on her (in flight). Maybe another 10 on the ground. During the flight the trouble occurred, I had checked the mags (in flight) individually before I left the proximity of the airport. All seemed well so I ventured out. The engine started running rough, and I checked the mags to discover that the cam gear-driven mag appeared to be completely dead. As of this date, I am still unsure why the engine continued running rough after I shut off that mag, and switched over to the crank mag. That is still a mystery to me. The only thing I can think of, is that in my panic, maybe I left the switch on "both" and the cam-driven mag was catching periodically (because of the partial tooth situation) and it was sending wild sparks in there. So I am not quite sure even now what happened, or exactly when. As you can see from the photos about 30% of the gear teeth are completely cracked off. The remaining teeth appear to be "worn" off. This is my speculation: There was insufficient clearance between the aluminum timing gear and the steel magneto gear. I had no trouble inserting and mounting that magneto at all, so no red flags were raised at that time. In my ignorance, I did not check the clearance between the gears. Over a period of hours, pressure was exerted onto the aluminum gear teeth and the metal failed on a number of the teeth, either from fatigue, or just the continued "mooshing" of the steel mag gear teeth against the aluminum teeth. When I contacted Ken Perkins, he speculated the same, and said the fix was adding shims (or extra gasket thickness) between the mag housing (casting that the mag is bolted to) and the engine block to achieve a clearance of four thousandths. This action would necessarily give more clearance between the two gears in question. But upon further examination, this action creates another problem. It is kind of hard to explain in an email, but there are three bolt holes that would have to be elongated, in the flat timing gear cover, in order to allow those three timing gear cover bolts to line up with the holes in the back of the engine block. I guess this would not be that big of a deal because only a few thousands of an inch would be needed. I myself have decided to go in another direction as far as the 2nd (redundant) ignition system goes (mostly to satisfy my wife). The Model A car suppliers sell an electronic ignition module that drops into a traditional distributor body. It will appear to be a stock Model A ignition system. Downside for me, is that I need a battery. I found a light weight battery at Wicks (4.4 lbs) that I will use. Another hang up is how is it recharged? I will maybe get a solar cell to put out when I am on the ground. Who knows, after you have proven the viability of the Perkins mag drive, I might go back to that! BTW Falluca told me that the aluminum gear should have had no problem with this set-up if clearances were correct. I think you would be wise to, during your on-ground break-in period, periodically remove that mag and peer in there to closely inspect that gear to see how it is doing. BTW, there was no apparent wear or damage that I can detect on the steel mag gear. I am willing to send you this aluminum gear for your close inspection. You may be able to glean some clues upon close examination. Let me know and I will UPS or mail it over to you. Please ask me more specific questions if you have them, and I will be more than glad to help however I can. Dan ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:13 AM PST US From: Woodflier@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: access panel for bellcrank John, I left the second bay behind the seat back on the bottom of the fuselage uncovered and made an cover out of aluminum sheet to cover it. I simply screwed it in with #6 x 1/2" stainless wood screws. It gives great access to those four elevator turnbuckles that I have directly connecting the elevator cables to the bellcrank. Matt Paxton On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 10:26 AM, John Kuhfahl wrote: > >> I want to put the plate in because you just can not get to anything >> through the two side inspection plates already there. I saw Oscar's >> yesterday, but wanted to see where other's have located it, how big, and how >> you supported the plate, etc. >> >> -- >> John Kuhfahl, Lt Col USAF (Ret), >> PresIident, KUHLCOUPER LLC ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:00:40 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Model A Mag drive From: "bender" Hey Dan ... i was thinking the same thing... but with the FSI distributor... it has centrifugal advance that is a full 28 deg at 1750 rpm there is another distributor drive coming out from the secrets of speed guys... uses a VW distributor on the timing cover with a separate gear .. http://www.secretsofspeed.com/IGNITIONS.htm looks pretty cool.. i gave my engine to Rich from antique engine rebuilders at the local model a swap meet last weekend... we talked about your troubles a bit.. looking forward to hanging it on the nose jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327685#327685 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:57:24 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Model A Mag drive From: Rick Holland Got electronic ignition on my auto engine Piet, but its a CSC. rick On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 9:58 AM, bender wrote: > jfaith@solairusaviation.com> > > Hey Dan ... i was thinking the same thing... but with the FSI > distributor... it has centrifugal advance that is a full 28 deg at 1750 rpm > there is another distributor drive coming out from the secrets of speed > guys... uses a VW distributor on the timing cover with a separate gear .. > http://www.secretsofspeed.com/IGNITIONS.htm > looks pretty cool.. > i gave my engine to Rich from antique engine rebuilders at the local model > a swap meet last weekend... we talked about your troubles a bit.. > looking forward to hanging it on the nose > > jeff > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327685#327685 > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:01:58 PM PST US From: Doug Dever Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Model A Mag drive Here's another thought. The Aerovee guys run a very simple fixed advance s econdary. Don't know much about it except it's very simple. I believe the y only run one set of plugs too. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Model A Mag drive > From: jfaith@solairusaviation.com > Date: Thu=2C 20 Jan 2011 08:58:21 -0800 > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > om> > > Hey Dan ... i was thinking the same thing... but with the FSI distributor ... it has centrifugal advance that is a full 28 deg at 1750 rpm > there is another distributor drive coming out from the secrets of speed g uys... uses a VW distributor on the timing cover with a separate gear .. > http://www.secretsofspeed.com/IGNITIONS.htm > looks pretty cool.. > i gave my engine to Rich from antique engine rebuilders at the local mode l a swap meet last weekend... we talked about your troubles a bit.. > looking forward to hanging it on the nose > > jeff > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327685#327685 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:10:07 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Model A Mag drive From: Rick Holland Aerovee uses dual electronic ignition and dual plugs. On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 12:57 PM, Doug Dever wrote: > Here's another thought. The Aerovee guys run a very simple fixed advance > secondary. Don't know much about it except it's very simple. I believe > they only run one set of plugs too. > > Doug Dever > In beautiful Stow Ohio > > > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Model A Mag drive > > From: jfaith@solairusaviation.com > > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 08:58:21 -0800 > > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > > > jfaith@solairusaviation.com> > > > > Hey Dan ... i was thinking the same thing... but with the FSI > distributor... it has centrifugal advance that is a full 28 deg at 1750 rpm > > there is another distributor drive coming out from the secrets of speed > guys... uses a VW distributor on the timing cover with a separate gear .. > > http://www.secretsofspeed.com/IGNITIONS.htm > > looks pretty cool.. > > i gave my engine to Rich from antique engine rebuilders at the local > model a swap meet last weekend... we talked about your troubles a bit.. > > looking forward to hanging it on the nose > > > > jeff > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327685#327685 > > > > > = Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > &g==================== > > _==== > > > > > > > > > * > > * > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:36:00 PM PST US From: Doug Dever Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Model A Mag drive You are correct The Aerovee actually uses 4 modules and yes it uses dual p lugs. I was thinking of the Great Plains VW. They have a fixed secondary. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Model A Mag drive From: at7000ft@gmail.com Aerovee uses dual electronic ignition and dual plugs. On Thu=2C Jan 20=2C 2011 at 12:57 PM=2C Doug Dever wrote: Here's another thought. The Aerovee guys run a very simple fixed advance s econdary. Don't know much about it except it's very simple. I believe the y only run one set of plugs too. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Model A Mag drive > From: jfaith@solairusaviation.com > Date: Thu=2C 20 Jan 2011 08:58:21 -0800 > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > om> > > Hey Dan ... i was thinking the same thing... but with the FSI distributor ... it has centrifugal advance that is a full 28 deg at 1750 rpm > there is another distributor drive coming out from the secrets of speed g uys... uses a VW distributor on the timing cover with a separate gear .. > http://www.secretsofspeed.com/IGNITIONS.htm > looks pretty cool.. > i gave my engine to Rich from antique engine rebuilders at the local mode l a swap meet last weekend... we talked about your troubles a bit.. > looking forward to hanging it on the nose > > jeff > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327685#327685 > > = Archive Search & Download=2C 7-Day Browse=2C Chat=2C FAQ=2C &g==================== > _===== > > > " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- Rick Holland Castle Rock=2C Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers=2C that smell bad" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.