---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 02/03/11: 35 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:04 AM - Re: Re: entry step and does anybody have a spare... (Jack Phillips) 2. 06:35 AM - Re: Spars (bender) 3. 06:44 AM - "accepted inconsistancies" poly fiber pricing (Douwe Blumberg) 4. 06:44 AM - wire wheel weights (Douwe Blumberg) 5. 06:55 AM - Re: Wire Wheel Build-up (Michael Perez) 6. 08:04 AM - Covering Processes (K5YAC) 7. 08:53 AM - Re: "accepted inconsistancies" poly fiber pricing (Ben Charvet) 8. 09:11 AM - Re: Pietenpol near Olive Branch, MS? (chase143(at)aol.com) 9. 09:14 AM - Re: Covering Processes (V Groah) 10. 09:29 AM - Re: "accepted inconsistancies" poly fiber pricing (V Groah) 11. 10:51 AM - keeping costs down, and NX799B progress (Douwe Blumberg) 12. 11:17 AM - Re: keeping costs down, and NX799B progress (K5YAC) 13. 12:04 PM - Re: keeping costs down, and NX799B progress (brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com) 14. 12:12 PM - Re: keeping costs down, and NX799B progress (gtche98) 15. 12:21 PM - Re: Covering Processes (gtche98) 16. 12:39 PM - Re: keeping costs down, and NX799B progress (K5YAC) 17. 01:03 PM - Re: Re: keeping costs down, and NX799B progress (Kenneth Bickers) 18. 02:04 PM - Re: Steel (spring) Type Landing Gear (KM Heide CPO/FAAOP) 19. 03:40 PM - Re: Covering Processes (kevinpurtee) 20. 04:25 PM - Re: Steel (spring) Type Landing Gear (Rick Holland) 21. 04:25 PM - Re: Re: Covering Processes (Rick Holland) 22. 04:26 PM - Re: Re: Covering Processes (Rick Holland) 23. 04:45 PM - Re: Re: Covering Processes (Jack Phillips) 24. 05:01 PM - Re: Re: Covering Processes (Jim Markle) 25. 05:22 PM - Re: Covering Processes (K5YAC) 26. 05:37 PM - Re: Re: keeping costs down, and NX799B progress (Charles Campbell) 27. 06:02 PM - Re: Covering Processes (Dangerous Dave) 28. 06:15 PM - leading edge plywood (TOM MICHELLE BRANT) 29. 06:15 PM - Re: Re: Covering Processes (Mike Tunnicliffe) 30. 06:46 PM - Re: leading edge plywood (Chris) 31. 06:50 PM - Re: leading edge plywood (pineymb) 32. 08:00 PM - Re: leading edge plywood (K5YAC) 33. 08:40 PM - Re: Re: Covering Processes (Gboothe5) 34. 08:41 PM - Re: Re: entry step and does anybody have a spare... (Ray Krause) 35. 08:41 PM - Re: wire wheel weights (Ray Krause) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:04:51 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: entry step and does anybody have a spare... Well said, Kevin. As for your comment that such a repair could be completed in an afternoon, that is true if the covering finish was dope or PolyTone, which can be wiped off with a rag soked in MEK. If painted with latex or Polyurethane, the paint must be sanded off and that takes a loooooong time (ask me how I know!) Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kevinpurtee Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 11:08 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: entry step and does anybody have a spare... Hi Ray - I'm sure Jack will answer but I'll throw in my thoughts. Those permanent fixtures are just that, permanent. The vast majority of builders cover them as Jack has. Take a look at www.westcoastpiet.com at the dozens of close-up photos there, including Jack's beautiful airplane. If you end up having to access covered fittings then yes, you're responding to a significant issue of some sort. We don't routinely "snug" structural bolts under fabric. If you do have to get to a covered bolt to do work, you cut the fabric, do the work, and then make your patch per the instructions you'll get with whatever covering system you use. The fabric portion of those repairs would likely be completed in an afternoon. Best regards, Kevin -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329411#329411 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:19 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spars From: "bender" Thanks.... thats what i thought would be the best too.. planing boards tomorrow the lumber yard is Koetter Lumber they are a mill and drying wholesale lumber company.... i just got lucky enough to know someone that knows someone.. i went along to see the four boards they pulled but was told not to say anything about them being for me.... there is another place called Long and Wide lumber... the owner also works, or worked at Koetter and can get wood from them.. PC lumber in New Albany says they can order from Koetter and they are a retail store. not sure I could use up my contact to much... but maybe ? jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329441#329441 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:44:02 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: "accepted inconsistancies" poly fiber pricing The info below is pasted from the Poly Fiber FAQ section. While this certainly includes fabric, tapes etc, based on the now $70 or more per gallon price of Poly Fiber products, I'll bet it would come in "around" $1500, give or take. Of these systems, which is cheaper? How much will it cost to cover my plane? If you got a price quote on each of the three systems, you'd see that they all total about the same. Only the cost per can is different. For instance, dope costs about $35.00 a gallon, Poly-Fiber is about $60.00 a gallon, but you need twice as much dope as Poly-Fiber. The urethanes can get as high as $200.00 including catalyst and flex agents. Here you use fewer gallons, but at a much higher price. No matter which system you use, the final cost for the fabric, tapes, coatings and paint is about the same. Cub sized airplanes will cost $2,500 to $3,000, depending on the color you choose. Ultralights run about $500 to $1,000 on average. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:44:08 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: wire wheel weights A few years back, I weighed a few wire wheels that were at Brodhead, plus I'm on my third set (don't ask) myself. 16 to 18 lbs seems the norm without the brake assembly, just the wheel, tube and tire. Douwe ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:55:51 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Build-up Here is some more detail on my wheels. (As I see this is becoming a hot top ic.)- My rims, as stated, are 21" X 2.15". The actual rim width measured at the edge of the rim is 3.00". The 2.15", I believe, is down inside the r im where the tire bead lays. (I have not verified this.) The rims are alumi num as are the nipples. The spokes are SS. As you may have noticed, I did n ot opt. to have anything polished. (I even preferred the spokes to be dull, but they are what they are.) Highly polished rims/nipples won't match the look my plane will have. I MAY try to dull the spokes with some sanding... My hubs are all SS. Flanges are 3/16" thick and the tube is 1.5" SS tube. T he ID of the tube needed to be machined larger ever so slightly to accept t he bronze bushings. (Press fit)- The overall hub width is 6.0"- Kennie recommended going no smaller then 6" for strength purposes for cross-wind l andings. As noted, Kennie was fantastic, customer service of the likes which is rare in today's age. That alone was worth some $$ to me...and well spent. You can have any of their Sun rims drilled to any number of holes and you m ay have anything polished to a chrome like finish...all of which will cost you more money. Michael Perez =0AKaretaker Aero =0Awww.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:04:20 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Covering Processes From: "K5YAC" Wow... these darn snow days are becoming very educational. I didn't want to hijack Douwe's discussion on the cost of covering, but since the topic is being discussed, I have a few questions. I honestly haven't done much research on covering materials. I've made comments to others like "I'm going to use the Stewart System and latex paint", but I really don't know what I'm talking about where these materials or processes are concerned. Polyfiber, Ceconite and Dacron are all fabrics, right? Are there more? I have heard that MEK is nasty stuff, which is a key ingredient in at least one of the processes. I know there is also a need for a respirator with some of this stuff, so I've been leaning towards the Stewart System since I've got a 6 year old hanging around me most of the time. Same goes for latex paint, I've heard that it is not only cheaper, but easier to apply and people have got good mileage from using it. Someone on here has had a panel hanging on a fence post for several years, right? The only information I've got on covering is the Stewart System DVDs, which are nicely done and make the process seem very straightforward. There is an outfit in Arkansas (Aircraft Fabric & Finishes I believe) that came to our EAA hangar for a covering workshop a few years ago, but I missed it. Some were talking about having them back... perhaps we'll be able to arrange that this year... you listening Mr. Markle? Perhaps someone can point me (and others) to a more comprehensive comparison of these products and processes. I know that the search feature is available, but not knowing the difference between a fabric or a process it becomes difficult to make sense of the different topics that might be found. Having a little better base of information would probably go a long way in understanding some of these covering discussions. Perhaps there is an "intro to covering" write up out there that covers the different fabrics and processes for those of us that have never done this stuff? Thanks! -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329449#329449 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:52 AM PST US From: Ben Charvet Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: "accepted inconsistancies" poly fiber pricing Or, you could use the latex method using Stewart system glue, like Gary Bell, me and others have and come in under $1000....with no fumes at all. Ben Charvet On 2/3/2011 9:30 AM, Douwe Blumberg wrote: > > *The info below is pasted from the Poly Fiber FAQ section. While this > certainly includes fabric, tapes etc, based on the now $70 or more per > gallon price of Poly Fiber products, I'll bet it would come in > "around" $1500, give or take.* > > ** > > *Of these systems, which is cheaper? > How much will it cost to cover my plane?* > > If you got a price quote on each of the three systems, you'd see > that*they all total about the same*. Only the cost per can is > different. For instance, dope costs about $35.00 a gallon, Poly-Fiber > is about $60.00 a gallon, but*you need twice as much dope as > Poly-Fiber*. The urethanes can get as high as $200.00 including > catalyst and flex agents. Here you use fewer gallons, but at a much > higher price. > > No matter which system you use, the final cost for the fabric, tapes, > coatings and paint is about the same. > > *Cub sized airplanes*will cost*$2,500 to $3,000*, depending on the > color you choose. > > *Ultralights*run about*$500 to $1,000*on average. > > * > > > * -- Ben Charvet, PharmD Staff Pharmacist Parrish Medical center ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:11:57 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol near Olive Branch, MS? From: "chase143(at)aol.com" Hello John, Good luck in all your pursuits. You didnt list your contact info, so I am passing you contact info (with permission) of a guy with worlds of information on several fronts. Thousands of hours in homebuilt aircraft, airline captain, and he heads up the Fly for Life missionary organization at Oshkosh each year. Feel free to give him a shout out: smokyray@rocketmail.com And good luck with the Piet! Steve -------- Steve www.mypiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329459#329459 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:14:17 AM PST US From: V Groah Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Covering Processes We are going to do the fabric very soon. We got the price from Aircraft Sp ruce for the materials then took those prices to a local supplier at our lo cal air port. I asked them if they could be competitive price wise item fo r item. They bid the materials at a lower price than Aircraft Spruce and t hey pick up the shipping. The shipping on hazardous materials like paint i s a real consideration. You might try your local guys. > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Covering Processes > From: hangar10@cox.net > Date: Thu=2C 3 Feb 2011 08:01:52 -0800 > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > > Wow... these darn snow days are becoming very educational. I didn't want to hijack Douwe's discussion on the cost of covering=2C but since the topic is being discussed=2C I have a few questions. > > I honestly haven't done much research on covering materials. I've made co mments to others like "I'm going to use the Stewart System and latex paint" =2C but I really don't know what I'm talking about where these materials or processes are concerned. Polyfiber=2C Ceconite and Dacron are all fabrics =2C right? Are there more? I have heard that MEK is nasty stuff=2C which is a key ingredient in at least one of the processes. I know there is also a need for a respirator with some of this stuff=2C so I've been leaning towar ds the Stewart System since I've got a 6 year old hanging around me most of the time. Same goes for latex paint=2C I've heard that it is not only chea per=2C but easier to apply and people have got good mileage from using it. Someone on here has had a panel hanging on a fence post for several years =2C right? > > The only information I've got on covering is the Stewart System DVDs=2C w hich are nicely done and make the process seem very straightforward. There is an outfit in Arkansas (Aircraft Fabric & Finishes I believe) that came t o our EAA hangar for a covering workshop a few years ago=2C but I missed it . Some were talking about having them back... perhaps we'll be able to arra nge that this year... you listening Mr. Markle? > > Perhaps someone can point me (and others) to a more comprehensive compari son of these products and processes. I know that the search feature is avai lable=2C but not knowing the difference between a fabric or a process it be comes difficult to make sense of the different topics that might be found. Having a little better base of information would probably go a long way in understanding some of these covering discussions. Perhaps there is an "intr o to covering" write up out there that covers the different fabrics and pro cesses for those of us that have never done this stuff? > > Thanks! > > -------- > Mark Chouinard > Wings=2C Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329449#329449 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:29:12 AM PST US From: V Groah Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: "accepted inconsistancies" poly fiber pricing We are using poly fiber and took the prices from aircraft spruce to our loc al airport parts guy. We asked if he could be competitive. He bid cheaper on every item and will pick up the shipping. You might try that. It will save a few bucks. Vic From: bencharvet@gmail.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: "accepted inconsistancies" poly fiber pricing Or=2C you could use the latex method using Stewart system glue=2C like Gary Bell=2C me and others have and come in under $1000....with no fumes at all .. Ben Charvet On 2/3/2011 9:30 AM=2C Douwe Blumberg wrote: The info below is pasted from the Poly Fiber FAQ section. While this certa inly includes fabric=2C tapes etc=2C based on the now $70 or more per gallo n price of Poly Fiber products=2C I=92ll bet it would come in =93around=94 $1500=2C give or take. Of these systems=2C which is cheaper? How much will it cost to cover my plane? If you got a price quote on each of the three systems=2C you'd see that the y all total about the same. Only the cost per can is different. For instanc e=2C dope costs about $35.00 a gallon=2C Poly-Fiber is about $60.00 a gallo n=2C but you need twice as much dope as Poly-Fiber. The urethanes can get a s high as $200.00 including catalyst and flex agents. Here you use fewer ga llons=2C but at a much higher price. No matter which system you use=2C the final cost for the fabric=2C tapes=2C coatings and paint is about the same. Cub sized airplanes will cost $2=2C500 to $3=2C000=2C depending on the colo r you choose. Ultralights run about $500 to $1=2C000 on average. -- Ben Charvet=2C PharmD Staff Pharmacist Parrish Medical center ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:09 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: keeping costs down, and NX799B progress I heartily concur with what has been mentioned earlier regarding shipping. Shipping really adds up over time to the point that it'll really surprise you. If you're wanting to be as frugal as possible, try hard to order large batches of stuff at once, rather than two an3 bolts because you ran out, or another quart of reducer, or six inches of hose, or, or , or, or. I've found it difficult, if not impossible for me (being a first time builder) to predict exactly what I'll need, so even though I try hard to get everything into a big order, I invariably items out which I then MUST have the following week, making UPS my biggest fan. Finally getting some traction out here. Cowling and new grill coming along nicely (will send pics when a bit further) and new wheels/brakes and landing gear almost done and working out very nicely. This is my third set of wheels I've built, second one with brakes. First set had one wheels torqued in the accident, so new ones were in order. Because they're inconspicuous, I like a drum brake with the hub built internally into the wire wheel. First time 'round I used go cart bakes as some others have, but after some more searching, I found some brakes from golf carts which are very nicely made, larger and sturdier than the others, and so far they're working out nicely. Like all drum brakes with large wire wheels, they will most likely be underpowered, but that's good since everybody's gears are now too far back. :o Did a cool thing which I'm also really happy with. The flat backrest really became uncomfortable after twenty minutes of flying around my shop, so I cut out a 15" square and replaced it with a carbon fiber piece that has a contour in it. In the deepest point, it protrudes behind the bulkhead about 1.5", so it'll move the CG back a tiny bit, but being only 150 lbs, I'm not worried, and the difference is huge. I did the same with my seat bottom to drop me down into the pit more and to try to match the contour of my bottom. $ .02 Douwe ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:17:58 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: keeping costs down, and NX799B progress From: "K5YAC" I agree Douwe. Although I've got a long way to go, I know that I've already spent several hundred dollars on shipping items (including two freight trucks). Aside from planning ahead in order to get as much as possible on each order, one of the more helpful things that many have mentioned is the "Bag of Spruce". I ordered this early in my project and I'm glad that I did... I've used these scraps several times. Another thing that I would like to recommend to anyone starting out in this hobby from scratch (as I did) is a "Homebuilders Hardware Kit", or something similar. Having this selection of common hardware has saved me a lot of guesswork when mounting fasteners. Of course, taking accurate measurements helps when planing assemblies, but sometimes it is nice to hold stuff in your hand and know that it will fit/work. This also keeps me from ordering a handful of nuts and bolts as I need them. As I use stuff up I can just replenish my stock when I place an order for other things, not ever time I need a fastener. I'm fortunate that there is a lot of hardware, tools, materials and knowledge readily available at my field and in the Tulsa area, but I can see how these little things can really start to rack up for people who are in more remote locations, and even for myself when I fail to plan properly. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329477#329477 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:40 PM PST US From: brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: keeping costs down, and NX799B progress Douwe, Could you post some pictures of the back rest you described below?? Thanks. Brian SLC-UT From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Douwe Blumberg Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 11:49 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: keeping costs down, and NX799B progress I heartily concur with what has been mentioned earlier regarding shipping. Shipping really adds up over time to the point that it'll really surprise you. If you're wanting to be as frugal as possible, try hard to order large batches of stuff at once, rather than two an3 bolts because you ran out, or another quart of reducer, or six inches of hose, or, or , or, or... I've found it difficult, if not impossible for me (being a first time builder) to predict exactly what I'll need, so even though I try hard to get everything into a big order, I invariably items out which I then MUST have the following week, making UPS my biggest fan. Finally getting some traction out here. Cowling and new grill coming along nicely (will send pics when a bit further) and new wheels/brakes and landing gear almost done and working out very nicely. This is my third set of wheels I've built, second one with brakes. First set had one wheels torqued in the accident, so new ones were in order. Because they're inconspicuous, I like a drum brake with the hub built internally into the wire wheel. First time 'round I used go cart bakes as some others have, but after some more searching, I found some brakes from golf carts which are very nicely made, larger and sturdier than the others, and so far they're working out nicely. Like all drum brakes with large wire wheels, they will most likely be underpowered, but that's good since everybody's gears are now too far back. :o Did a cool thing which I'm also really happy with. The flat backrest really became uncomfortable after twenty minutes of flying around my shop, so I cut out a 15" square and replaced it with a carbon fiber piece that has a contour in it. In the deepest point, it protrudes behind the bulkhead about 1.5", so it'll move the CG back a tiny bit, but being only 150 lbs, I'm not worried, and the difference is huge. I did the same with my seat bottom to drop me down into the pit more and to try to match the contour of my bottom. $ .02 Douwe ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:12:35 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: keeping costs down, and NX799B progress From: "gtche98" Great point about a starter set of hardware. Does one exist? Various Google searches have resulted in dubious results. If none exist, is there any advice out there on what one would include (and quantities) in such a set for the Piet? -------- Gary Wilson Greenville Wisconsin gtche98 (at) gmail ((dot)) com Planning Phase Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329485#329485 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:21:32 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes From: "gtche98" Mark - Too funny. I have thought the exact same thing, especially about Latex. "Someone has had it on a fence post for years, and still passes punch test...Good enough for me!" Do not archive K5YAC wrote: > I honestly haven't done much research on covering materials. I've made comments to others like "I'm going to use the Stewart System and latex paint", but I really don't know what I'm talking about where these materials or processes are concerned. ... Someone on here has had a panel hanging on a fence post for several years, right? > -------- Gary Wilson Greenville Wisconsin gtche98 (at) gmail ((dot)) com Planning Phase Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329486#329486 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:24 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: keeping costs down, and NX799B progress From: "K5YAC" There are several hardware kits at various vendors. I purchased the Homebuilders Hardware Kit from Aircraft Spruce. Go to the link and click on the "Assorted Kits" link... there are many. I purchased this one as I figured it would cover much of what I needed. They also have this one, which is nearly 3 times as much and contains way more than I'll probably need. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329488#329488 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:03:48 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: keeping costs down, and NX799B progress From: Kenneth Bickers Another option is to wait until final assembly to buy and install AN hardware. For now, I'm using inexpensive hardware store stuff -- to date, I've probably paid close to $10 total on this stuff. One advantage is that I can use the cheapy stuff to let me make a detailed inventory of the exact lengths of AN that I'll need. I figure I can place one order for everything I'll need when I know exactly what that will be. Cheers, Ken On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 1:36 PM, K5YAC wrote: > > There are several hardware kits at various vendors. I purchased the > Homebuilders Hardware Kit from Aircraft Spruce. Go to the link and click on > the "Assorted Kits" link... there are many. > > > I purchased this one as I figured it would cover much of what I needed. > > > They also have this one, which is nearly 3 times as much and contains way > more than I'll probably need. > > > -------- > Mark Chouinard > Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329488#329488 > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:36 PM PST US From: KM Heide CPO/FAAOP Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Steel (spring) Type Landing Gear Rick, If I send you my width dimensions, care to build me a set of gear legs? ....oh and under 50 bucks! Ken H --- On Wed, 2/2/11, Rick Holland wrote: > From: Rick Holland > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Steel (spring) Type Landing Gear > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 5:30 PM > I built spring gear using the Bengelis style > design you mentioned (attached). You are correct, if I ever > wanted a different spring I would pretty much have to build > another set from scratch. If the other design is stronger > and more modular why not go for it? > > > rick > > On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at > 3:48 PM, K5YAC > wrote: > > > > > > I'm contemplating my landing gear and I've found at > least two options where spring style shock absorbers are > concerned. One is from page 255 of Tony Bingelis' > "The Sportplane Builder" and the other is from Sy > Debolt as found in an old issue of the Buckeye Pietenpol > Newsletter. I think the drawing may have been done by > Frank Pavliga as it notes "Redrawn by FSP". > Forgive me if I've goofed some of this information... > just trying to give proper credit. Both are shown below. > > > > > I have the materials for either, but I'm leaning > towards the type shown in the Buckeye newsletter primarily > because the assembly looks more durable and would allow > removal of the different sections and spring should it be > necessary. As Tony points out in his writing, "spring > (C) and collar (B) must be slipped on to upper tube before > welding lower (D) washer in place." Maybe I am > worrying about a non-issue, but if the spring were to break, > or if I just wanted to replace it with a softer or stiffer > version, it looks like I'd have a lot of work to do in > order to accomplish this. The Buckeye version looks like > it can be completely disassembled for service or repair. > > > > > Is my thinking correct? Can anyone provide an opinion on > one over the other? I think that Tony's version is > easier to construct, but I'm trying to look beyond the > fabrication and consider maintenance and durability. > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > The Sportplane Builder - Pg. 255 - Tony Bingelis > > > > > > > > Buckeye Pietenpol Newsletter - Sy Debolt > > > > > > -------- > > Mark Chouinard > > Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on > Fuselage > > > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329355#329355 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ========== > > st" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > > ========== > > http://forums.matronics.com > > ========== > > le, List Admin. > > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ========== > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Rick Holland > Castle Rock, Colorado > > "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell > bad" > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:40:17 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes From: "kevinpurtee" I chose Poly-Fiber specifically FOR the fumes... (sorry, again) do not archive -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329512#329512 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:25:50 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Steel (spring) Type Landing Gear From: Rick Holland Sure Ken, $50 per HOUR. rick On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 3:01 PM, KM Heide CPO/FAAOP wrote: > kmheidecpo@yahoo.com> > > Rick, > > If I send you my width dimensions, care to build me a set of gear legs? > > ....oh and under 50 bucks! > > Ken H > > > --- On Wed, 2/2/11, Rick Holland wrote: > > > From: Rick Holland > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Steel (spring) Type Landing Gear > > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 5:30 PM > > I built spring gear using the Bengelis style > > design you mentioned (attached). You are correct, if I ever > > wanted a different spring I would pretty much have to build > > another set from scratch. If the other design is stronger > > and more modular why not go for it? > > > > > > rick > > > > On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at > > 3:48 PM, K5YAC > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm contemplating my landing gear and I've found at > > least two options where spring style shock absorbers are > > concerned. One is from page 255 of Tony Bingelis' > > "The Sportplane Builder" and the other is from Sy > > Debolt as found in an old issue of the Buckeye Pietenpol > > Newsletter. I think the drawing may have been done by > > Frank Pavliga as it notes "Redrawn by FSP". > > Forgive me if I've goofed some of this information... > > just trying to give proper credit. Both are shown below. > > > > > > > > > > I have the materials for either, but I'm leaning > > towards the type shown in the Buckeye newsletter primarily > > because the assembly looks more durable and would allow > > removal of the different sections and spring should it be > > necessary. As Tony points out in his writing, "spring > > (C) and collar (B) must be slipped on to upper tube before > > welding lower (D) washer in place." Maybe I am > > worrying about a non-issue, but if the spring were to break, > > or if I just wanted to replace it with a softer or stiffer > > version, it looks like I'd have a lot of work to do in > > order to accomplish this. The Buckeye version looks like > > it can be completely disassembled for service or repair. > > > > > > > > > > Is my thinking correct? Can anyone provide an opinion on > > one over the other? I think that Tony's version is > > easier to construct, but I'm trying to look beyond the > > fabrication and consider maintenance and durability. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > The Sportplane Builder - Pg. 255 - Tony Bingelis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Buckeye Pietenpol Newsletter - Sy Debolt > > > > > > > > > > > > -------- > > > > Mark Chouinard > > > > Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on > > Fuselage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329355#329355 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ========== > > > > st" > > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > > > > ========== > > > > http://forums.matronics.com > > > > ========== > > > > le, List Admin. > > > > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > ========== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Rick Holland > > Castle Rock, Colorado > > > > "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell > > bad" > > > > > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:25:56 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes From: Rick Holland "I think I picked the wrong week to quit sniffin MEK" do not archive On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 4:36 PM, kevinpurtee wrote: > kevin.purtee@us.army.mil> > > I chose Poly-Fiber specifically FOR the fumes... > > (sorry, again) > > do not archive > > -------- > Kevin "Axel" Purtee > NX899KP > Austin/Georgetown, TX > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329512#329512 > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:09 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes From: Rick Holland Yup, over 5 years 24x365 on a fence post facing true South at 6700ft. On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 1:18 PM, gtche98 wrote: > > Mark - Too funny. I have thought the exact same thing, especially about > Latex. "Someone has had it on a fence post for years, and still passes > punch test...Good enough for me!" > > Do not archive > > > K5YAC wrote: > > I honestly haven't done much research on covering materials. I've made > comments to others like "I'm going to use the Stewart System and latex > paint", but I really don't know what I'm talking about where these materials > or processes are concerned. ... Someone on here has had a panel hanging on > a fence post for several years, right? > > > > > -------- > Gary Wilson > Greenville Wisconsin > gtche98 (at) gmail ((dot)) com > Planning Phase > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329486#329486 > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:45:09 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes Looks as shiny and smooth as the day it was painted. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Holland Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 7:24 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes Yup, over 5 years 24x365 on a fence post facing true South at 6700ft. On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 1:18 PM, gtche98 wrote: Mark - Too funny. I have thought the exact same thing, especially about Latex. "Someone has had it on a fence post for years, and still passes punch test...Good enough for me!" Do not archive K5YAC wrote: > I honestly haven't done much research on covering materials. I've made comments to others like "I'm going to use the Stewart System and latex paint", but I really don't know what I'm talking about where these materials or processes are concerned. ... Someone on here has had a panel hanging on a fence post for several years, right? > -------- Gary Wilson Greenville Wisconsin gtche98 (at) gmail ((dot)) com Planning Phase Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329486#329486 ========== st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:01:45 PM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes I saw it a while back when I stopped by for a visit....and the pictures don't do it justice...it's pretty amazing really.... It was interesting to see the weather beaten test fuse Rick built when he first started. It's sitting outside on the ground near that fence post with the test piece. The fuse has also been out in the elements and it's looking tired! But the paint test piece hanging on the fence....like new. That made for an interesting contrast. JM -----Original Message----- From: Jack Phillips Sent: Feb 3, 2011 6:36 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes Looks as shiny and smooth as the day it was painted. Jack Phillips NX899JP Icarus Plummet Raleigh, NC From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Holland Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 7:24 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes Yup, over 5 years 24x365 on a fence post facing true South at 6700ft. On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 1:18 PM, gtche98 wrote: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "gtche98" Mark - Too funny. I have thought the exact same thing, especially about Latex. "Someone has had it on a fence post for years, and still passes punch test...Good enough for me!" Do not archive K5YAC wrote: > I honestly haven't done much research on covering materials. I've made comments to others like "I'm going to use the Stewart System and latex paint", but I really don't know what I'm talking about where these materials or processes are concerned. ... Someone on here has had a panel hanging on a fence post for several years, right? > -------- Gary Wilson Greenville Wisconsin gtche98 (at) gmail ((dot)) com Planning Phase Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329486#329486 ========== st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:13 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes From: "K5YAC" 5 years? Awesome! Kevin Purtee offered me a quick lesson on covering offline. I was confusing the materials and processes with trade names and visa versa. I'm sure there is still plenty to figure out, but that helps me to understand some of the terms that I hear and read about. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329527#329527 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:37:07 PM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: keeping costs down, and NX799B progress I don't know where you're buying your hardware store stuff, but you can't do it here. I thought I'd try that route and the hardware store charged more than A/S. I do my experimenting with the real thing. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kenneth Bickers To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 3:59 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: keeping costs down, and NX799B progress Another option is to wait until final assembly to buy and install AN hardware. For now, I'm using inexpensive hardware store stuff -- to date, I've probably paid close to $10 total on this stuff. One advantage is that I can use the cheapy stuff to let me make a detailed inventory of the exact lengths of AN that I'll need. I figure I can place one order for everything I'll need when I know exactly what that will be. Cheers, Ken On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 1:36 PM, K5YAC wrote: There are several hardware kits at various vendors. I purchased the Homebuilders Hardware Kit from Aircraft Spruce. Go to the link and click on the "Assorted Kits" link... there are many. I purchased this one as I figured it would cover much of what I needed. They also have this one, which is nearly 3 times as much and contains way more than I'll probably need. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329488#329488 Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com Matt Dralle, List Admin. ==== ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 06:02:57 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes From: "Dangerous Dave" I have used the Stewart System and think its great.I used Ceconite fabric and all the rest is Stewart.All of it has cost about 2200.The difference is about 1100 in paint.The reason I didn't go with housepaint is I plan on keeping the plane for a long time and there is not much uv protection in housepaint Stewarts has 100% protection and if done right will never need a recover even if left outside.As to the other systems I've used them all and would like to hang on to the 3 brain cells I have left.dave -------- Covering Piet Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329530#329530 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 06:15:30 PM PST US From: TOM MICHELLE BRANT Subject: Pietenpol-List: leading edge plywood Maybe a stupid question but I can't figure it out (what's that say about me ??) Where do you start the leading edge plywood from? If you start from the bo ttom of the leading edge=2C how is it held in place while gluing - are nail s used? Or do you start it from the top of the leading edge and sand it in to the curve of the wing? I just don't see anything in the plans for this . Thanks=2C Tom B. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 06:15:30 PM PST US From: "Mike Tunnicliffe" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes Hi Dave, I believe the Dulux weathershield house paint I'm using has very good UV protection, the test sample I put outside 2 years ago shows no sign of fabric deterioration. regards Mike T. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dangerous Dave" Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 3:00 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes > > I have used the Stewart System and think its great.I used Ceconite fabric > and all the rest is Stewart.All of it has cost about 2200.The difference > is about 1100 in paint.The reason I didn't go with housepaint is I plan on > keeping the plane for a long time and there is not much uv protection in > housepaint Stewarts has 100% protection and if done right will never need > a recover even if left outside.As to the other systems I've used them all > and would like to hang on to the 3 brain cells I have left.dave > > -------- > Covering Piet > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329530#329530 > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:21 PM PST US From: "Chris" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: leading edge plywood Tom Near the bottom you will find several pictures of how I did the leading edge ply. http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Chris%20Tracy/Wings.htm If you look closely you can see I overlapped the plywood onto the leading edge into a recess I left for it. The leading edge (poplar) was finished to shape after the plywood was installed. Chris Sacramento, Ca Westcoastpiet.com _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOM MICHELLE BRANT Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 6:12 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: leading edge plywood Maybe a stupid question but I can't figure it out (what's that say about me??) Where do you start the leading edge plywood from? If you start from the bottom of the leading edge, how is it held in place while gluing - are nails used? Or do you start it from the top of the leading edge and sand it into the curve of the wing? I just don't see anything in the plans for this. Thanks, Tom B. ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 06:50:37 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: leading edge plywood From: "pineymb" Tom basically what I did was sheared sections of 1/16 aircraft ply at about 9.5" when installed flush with the back of the front spar the ply will be just back of the arch of the leading edge profile. I stapled the front section with 1/4" staples at about every inch or less. When glue is dry the staples were removed and the leading edge sanded smooth to blend with the profile. Hope this helps and is probably better illustrated by the attached photos. -------- Adrian M Winnipeg, MB Canada Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329534#329534 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00381_107.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00376_697.jpg ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 08:00:13 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: leading edge plywood From: "K5YAC" I installed 1/4" x 1/4" basswood backing strips with T-88. Removed the nails after the glue set. This gave me something to glue and nail the LE material to. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329540#329540 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:40 PM PST US From: "Gboothe5" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes Not so fast, Dave! Your work is definitely exceptional, but I question the statement that "... there is not much uv protection in housepaint...". Almost all paints contain Titanium Dioxide...the same Titanium Dioxide used in sun block. House paints would have to block UV if they were to protect wood. Benjamin Moore Exterior Aura brand paints describe their UV protection as "Extreme." Rhetorical question - How long should one leave the fabric on a wood framed airplane, no matter what dope/paint is used? Gary Boothe -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dangerous Dave Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 6:00 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes I have used the Stewart System and think its great.I used Ceconite fabric and all the rest is Stewart.All of it has cost about 2200.The difference is about 1100 in paint.The reason I didn't go with housepaint is I plan on keeping the plane for a long time and there is not much uv protection in housepaint Stewarts has 100% protection and if done right will never need a recover even if left outside.As to the other systems I've used them all and would like to hang on to the 3 brain cells I have left.dave -------- Covering Piet Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329530#329530 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 08:41:33 PM PST US From: "Ray Krause" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: entry step and does anybody have a spare... Thanks, Kevin. That will make my life easier when it comes time to cover the fuselage. I will study the Westcoast Piet site before I do anything. Nice to know the fittings do not need to be snugged up after construction. Thanks for the help. Also thanks to Jack for his reply. The wheels I have are 19X2.5 and weight 12 lbs each WITHOUT the tire and tube. the poor old Sky Scout would end up either very nose heavy, or earth bound! Thanks again. Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: "kevinpurtee" Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 8:08 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: entry step and does anybody have a spare... > > > Hi Ray - I'm sure Jack will answer but I'll throw in my thoughts. Those > permanent fixtures are just that, permanent. The vast majority of > builders cover them as Jack has. Take a look at www.westcoastpiet.com at > the dozens of close-up photos there, including Jack's beautiful airplane. > If you end up having to access covered fittings then yes, you're > responding to a significant issue of some sort. We don't routinely "snug" > structural bolts under fabric. > > If you do have to get to a covered bolt to do work, you cut the fabric, do > the work, and then make your patch per the instructions you'll get with > whatever covering system you use. The fabric portion of those repairs > would likely be completed in an afternoon. > > Best regards, > Kevin > > -------- > Kevin "Axel" Purtee > NX899KP > Austin/Georgetown, TX > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329411#329411 > > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 08:41:35 PM PST US From: "Ray Krause" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wire wheel weights I measured and weighed my wheel today. It is a 19 X 2.5 wheel, steel, chrome plated with very heavy spokes (either stainless or chromed, did not check), the axle hole diameter is 1.25" with nice brass bushings. The hub is 7.5" wide. The wide hub plate is at least 6" in diameter with 4 holes in each side..... would take a brake nicely. The only problem is, each weighs 11.5 lbs without the tires and tubes! They look expensive! I think these would be way too heavy for the Scout, right? Maybe I could find some aluminum rims for the hubs? Forty spokes, 3 cross pattern. Thanks, Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: Douwe Blumberg To: pietenpolgroup Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 6:37 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: wire wheel weights A few years back, I weighed a few wire wheels that were at Brodhead, plus I'm on my third set (don't ask) myself. 16 to 18 lbs seems the norm without the brake assembly, just the wheel, tube and tire. 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