---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 02/04/11: 50 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:14 AM - Re: Covering Processes (Dangerous Dave) 2. 05:45 AM - Re: Re: Covering Processes (Gboothe5) 3. 06:47 AM - Re: Re: Covering Processes (Jack Phillips) 4. 06:47 AM - Re: Re: Covering Processes (Gene Rambo) 5. 07:13 AM - Re: Re: Covering Processes (Gboothe5) 6. 07:26 AM - Re: Re: Covering Processes (Gboothe5) 7. 07:45 AM - Re: leading edge plywood (norm) 8. 07:53 AM - Re: leading edge plywood (TOM STINEMETZE) 9. 08:12 AM - Re: leading edge plywood (Rick Holland) 10. 08:13 AM - Re: leading edge plywood (Rick Holland) 11. 08:15 AM - Re: Re: Covering Processes (Rick Holland) 12. 08:22 AM - Re: Covering Processes (K5YAC) 13. 08:26 AM - Re: Covering Processes (Bill Church) 14. 08:30 AM - Re: leading edge plywood (K5YAC) 15. 08:33 AM - Re: Covering Processes (Bill Church) 16. 08:44 AM - Re: leading edge plywood (K5YAC) 17. 08:51 AM - Re: leading edge plywood (norm) 18. 08:51 AM - Re: Covering Processes (Bill Church) 19. 08:58 AM - Re: Covering Processes (dgaldrich) 20. 09:07 AM - Re: Covering Processes (bamabuilder) 21. 09:13 AM - Re: Re: Covering Processes (Jack Phillips) 22. 09:27 AM - Re: Re: Covering Processes (Jack Phillips) 23. 09:28 AM - Re: Pietenpol near Olive Branch, MS? (A Future Pilot) 24. 09:51 AM - Re: Re: Pietenpol near Olive Branch, MS? (airlion) 25. 10:01 AM - Re: Re: leading edge plywood (Michael Perez) 26. 10:11 AM - Pietenpol Rookie (Brad Roberts) 27. 10:25 AM - Re: Re: Re: Covering Processes (Jack) 28. 10:34 AM - Re: leading edge plywood (Charles Campbell) 29. 10:34 AM - Re: Pietenpol Rookie (Jack) 30. 10:36 AM - Re: leading edge plywood (Charles Campbell) 31. 10:36 AM - Paint discussion ad nauseum (Lawrence Williams) 32. 10:49 AM - Re: Covering Processes (bamabuilder) 33. 11:06 AM - Re: leading edge plywood (Jack Phillips) 34. 11:12 AM - Re: leading edge plywood (Rick Holland) 35. 11:14 AM - Re: leading edge plywood (Jack Phillips) 36. 11:32 AM - Re: leading edge plywood (TOM STINEMETZE) 37. 12:01 PM - Re: Covering Processes (DOMIT) 38. 12:03 PM - Re: leading edge plywood (Bill Church) 39. 12:16 PM - Re: Pietenpol Rookie (K5YAC) 40. 12:51 PM - Re: Re: Covering Processes (Rick Holland) 41. 01:21 PM - Re: Covering Processes (Bill Church) 42. 01:43 PM - Re: Dillsburg Redux (dgaldrich) 43. 02:15 PM - Re: Re: Covering Processes (Ben Charvet) 44. 03:07 PM - Re: Covering Processes (Dangerous Dave) 45. 07:56 PM - Re: Re: Covering Processes (Gary Boothe) 46. 09:00 PM - Re: Pietenpol Rookie (kevinpurtee) 47. 09:08 PM - Re: Paint discussion ad nauseum (kevinpurtee) 48. 09:09 PM - Re: Paint discussion ad nauseum (kevinpurtee) 49. 09:34 PM - Re: leading edge plywood (TOM MICHELLE BRANT) 50. 09:39 PM - Re: Re: Paint discussion ad nauseum (Gene Rambo) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:14:37 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes From: "Dangerous Dave" Gary,The point I'm trying to make is that it takes 3 cross coats of Eco Fill to give the fabric full protection,then the 4 coats of paint for a finish.It has a scientifically proven UV rating.House paint has UV protection also but how many coats do you need to get to the 100% protection,probably 3 crosscoats thats 6 actual coats,does anyone put on that much and what are the weight penalties.Can't help it, its the anal A&P in me.The one thing I have noticed with the house paint finishes that I have seen is that you can see the weave of the fabric through the paint indicating there's only 2 coats.And do you wet the fabric before painting to get maximum adhesion?dave -------- Covering Piet Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329553#329553 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:48 AM PST US From: "Gboothe5" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes Certainly apples vs. oranges. As you may have noticed on the Bell Piet, they went to great length to give the fabric a weave look as in old linen. I have not investigated Sears Weatherbeater paint, or any other brand other than Benjamin Moore, as I have locked in on the Aura line from BM, a zero VOC paint. Their data sheet advertises never more than 2 coats for full coverage and protection, including wind driven rain. As an A&P myself, I fully respect your background and perspective, but can't help being intrigued by out-of-the-box thinking...just want to keep the facts straight. Gary -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dangerous Dave Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 4:12 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes Gary,The point I'm trying to make is that it takes 3 cross coats of Eco Fill to give the fabric full protection,then the 4 coats of paint for a finish.It has a scientifically proven UV rating.House paint has UV protection also but how many coats do you need to get to the 100% protection,probably 3 crosscoats thats 6 actual coats,does anyone put on that much and what are the weight penalties.Can't help it, its the anal A&P in me.The one thing I have noticed with the house paint finishes that I have seen is that you can see the weave of the fabric through the paint indicating there's only 2 coats.And do you wet the fabric before painting to get maximum adhesion?dave -------- Covering Piet Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329553#329553 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:00 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes I'm just throwing this out to "stir the pot" and encourage flaming emails... I know there have been some quasi-scientific studies on UV protection from house paint, but has anyone ever compared the weight of fabric finished with house-paint versus other finishes? I know whatever the finish, it can't be as heavy as the polyurethane (PolyFiber's Aerothane) that I used. There are (at least) 6 factors to weigh when choosing a finish: 1. Durability. Here, nothing can touch polyurethane. The stuff is bulletproof - so much so that the only way to remove it for repair is to sand it off. House paint is a big unknown here, unless you use the same formulation as is already flying on someone's airplane. It is one thing to be durable on a house, but fabric flexes and drums in flight and the pain must be able to flex with it. Housepaint in general is not designed to do this, and static tests such as painting a panel and leaving it out in the sun doesn't necessarily measure this. Dope and PolyTone (and presumably the Stewart System) are all designed to be flexible and have good durability. 2. Weight. Here I think butyrate dope has the edge, but I have no data to prove this. I know two part paints like polyurethane don't lose much weight as they cure, and I don't think latex does either. It would be interesting to do a test such as this, comparing dope, latex, polyurethane, the Stewart system, and PolyTone. 3. Final Finish. Polyurethane tops the list here, if you want a shiny, wet look finish that you can see yourself in. For a duller finish, dope or PolyTone makes a very snice, smooth finish. I have not seen a Stewart Systems paint job that I know of. The latex paint jobs I've seen have not impressed me with the finish. 4. Cost. As I understand it, the costs are ranked from cheapest to most expensive as follows: Latex, Dope, Stewart, PolyTone, Polyurethane. 5. Ease of Application. Nothing could be easier than rolling on a coat of house paint, but the end result will look like rolled on house paint. Sprayed latex is more trouble, but still doesn't have much in the way of VOCs. Next is probably the Stewart System, with its water based paint. Then would be dope and PolyTone, with polyurethane the most trouble to paint and the most dangerous, requiring a full face mask with supplied air due to the toxic gases generated as it cures. 6. Ease of Repair. Don't think you won't ever have to repair the fabric on your Pietenpol. As the saying goes "Feces Occurs". The easiest system to repair is PolyTone, since you can just wipe the repair area with a rag soaked in MEK and the finish wipes right off. Dope is nearly as easy. I don't know enough about the Stewart System to know how to repair it. Latex and polyurethane must be sanded off and that is very difficult to do without going too far and damaging the underlying fabric. Having laid all this out, I can only comment from experience in all six of these areas with polyurethane, and my comment there is that I would not use it again. It is very difficult to apply without getting a lot of orange-peel (at least for me), it is EXTREMELY difficult to repair, it is very expensive and it is very heavy. The only thing good about it is it's extremely durable and it looks good. Next time I would use the PolyFiber system with PolyTone paint. Let the flames begin. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gboothe5 Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 8:41 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes Certainly apples vs. oranges. As you may have noticed on the Bell Piet, they went to great length to give the fabric a weave look as in old linen. I have not investigated Sears Weatherbeater paint, or any other brand other than Benjamin Moore, as I have locked in on the Aura line from BM, a zero VOC paint. Their data sheet advertises never more than 2 coats for full coverage and protection, including wind driven rain. As an A&P myself, I fully respect your background and perspective, but can't help being intrigued by out-of-the-box thinking...just want to keep the facts straight. Gary -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dangerous Dave Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 4:12 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes Gary,The point I'm trying to make is that it takes 3 cross coats of Eco Fill to give the fabric full protection,then the 4 coats of paint for a finish.It has a scientifically proven UV rating.House paint has UV protection also but how many coats do you need to get to the 100% protection,probably 3 crosscoats thats 6 actual coats,does anyone put on that much and what are the weight penalties.Can't help it, its the anal A&P in me.The one thing I have noticed with the house paint finishes that I have seen is that you can see the weave of the fabric through the paint indicating there's only 2 coats.And do you wet the fabric before painting to get maximum adhesion?dave -------- Covering Piet Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329553#329553 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:01 AM PST US From: Gene Rambo Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes "full coverage and protection" for house siding may not mean the same as fo r aircraft fabric. One drawback to corresponding by email is that tone and intent are never clear. "Keeping the facts straight" could be interpreted as condescension=2C which I am sure is not the case. Gene Rambo covering tail surfaces in the guest room as we speak! do not archive > From: gboothe5@comcast.net > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes > Date: Fri=2C 4 Feb 2011 05:40:55 -0800 > > > Certainly apples vs. oranges. As you may have noticed on the Bell Piet=2C they > went to great length to give the fabric a weave look as in old linen. I h ave > not investigated Sears Weatherbeater paint=2C or any other brand other th an > Benjamin Moore=2C as I have locked in on the Aura line from BM=2C a zero VOC > paint. Their data sheet advertises never more than 2 coats for full cover age > and protection=2C including wind driven rain. As an A&P myself=2C I fully > respect your background and perspective=2C but can't help being intrigued by > out-of-the-box thinking...just want to keep the facts straight. > > Gary > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dangerous > Dave > Sent: Friday=2C February 04=2C 2011 4:12 AM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes > > > Gary=2CThe point I'm trying to make is that it takes 3 cross coats of Eco Fill > to give the fabric full protection=2Cthen the 4 coats of paint for a fini sh.It > has a scientifically proven UV rating.House paint has UV protection also but > how many coats do you need to get to the 100% protection=2Cprobably 3 > crosscoats thats 6 actual coats=2Cdoes anyone put on that much and what a re > the weight penalties.Can't help it=2C its the anal A&P in me.The one thin g I > have noticed with the house paint finishes that I have seen is that you c an > see the weave of the fabric through the paint indicating there's only 2 > coats.And do you wet the fabric before painting to get maximum adhesion?d ave > > -------- > Covering Piet > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329553#329553 > > > > > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:38 AM PST US From: "Gboothe5" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes Duly noted, Bill. I only wished to address the incorrect statements made by the poster, such as, ".House paint has UV protection also but how many coats do you need to get to the 100% protection, probably 3 crosscoats thats 6 actual coats,does anyone put on that much and what are the weight penalties.." Rest assured, my intent is respectful and friendly. Who wouldn't want to drink beer with someone called "Dangerous Dave?" Gary From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 6:18 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes "full coverage and protection" for house siding may not mean the same as for aircraft fabric. One drawback to corresponding by email is that tone and intent are never clear. "Keeping the facts straight" could be interpreted as condescension, which I am sure is not the case. Gene Rambo covering tail surfaces in the guest room as we speak! do not archive > From: gboothe5@comcast.net > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes > Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 05:40:55 -0800 > > > Certainly apples vs. oranges. As you may have noticed on the Bell Piet, they > went to great length to give the fabric a weave look as in old linen. I have > not investigated Sears Weatherbeater paint, or any other brand other than > Benjamin Moore, as I have locked in on the Aura line from BM, a zero VOC > paint. Their data sheet advertises never more than 2 coats for full coverage > and protection, including wind driven rain. As an A&P myself, I fully > respect your background and perspective, but can't help being intrigued by > out-of-the-box thinking...just want to keep the facts straight. > > Gary > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dangerous > Dave > Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 4:12 AM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes > > > Gary,The point I'm trying to make is that it takes 3 cross coats of Eco Fill > to give the fabric full protection,then the 4 coats of paint for a finish.It > has a scientifically proven UV rating.House paint has UV protection also but > how many coats do you need to get to the 100% protection,probably 3 > crosscoats thats 6 actual coats,does anyone put on that much and what are > the weight penalties.Can't help it, its the anal A&P in me.The one thing I > have noticed with the house paint finishes that I have seen is that you can > see the weave of the fabric through the paint indicating there's only 2 > coats.And do you wet the fabric before painting to get maximum adhesion?dave > > -------- > Covering Piet > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329553#329553 > > > > > > > > > > > &==================== > _========= > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:26:17 AM PST US From: "Gboothe5" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes Jack, Just some thoughts: Durability. Is it possible to have it both ways? You state that nothing can touch polyurethane, but then continue to point out that Latex (and polyurethane) must be sanded off. That sounds pretty tough. Weight. Benjamin Moore Aura paints have 46% solids. Not being an educated person, that tells me that 54% of the weight will evaporate. Flexibility. Almost all paints are subjected to some sort of flexibility test. The BM Aura brand paints are tested to ASTM D522.a conical test that shows the product's ability to stay bonded to a substrate as the substrate is bent around a cone. No flames here.just facts. Again, I ask the rhetorical question: How long should a fabric and paint application last on a wood framed aircraft, before it is removed to merely inspect the frame? I've been told 10 years is appropriate. Gary From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Phillips Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 6:35 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes I'm just throwing this out to "stir the pot" and encourage flaming emails... I know there have been some quasi-scientific studies on UV protection from house paint, but has anyone ever compared the weight of fabric finished with house-paint versus other finishes? I know whatever the finish, it can't be as heavy as the polyurethane (PolyFiber's Aerothane) that I used. There are (at least) 6 factors to weigh when choosing a finish: 1. Durability. Here, nothing can touch polyurethane. The stuff is bulletproof - so much so that the only way to remove it for repair is to sand it off. House paint is a big unknown here, unless you use the same formulation as is already flying on someone's airplane. It is one thing to be durable on a house, but fabric flexes and drums in flight and the pain must be able to flex with it. Housepaint in general is not designed to do this, and static tests such as painting a panel and leaving it out in the sun doesn't necessarily measure this. Dope and PolyTone (and presumably the Stewart System) are all designed to be flexible and have good durability. 2. Weight. Here I think butyrate dope has the edge, but I have no data to prove this. I know two part paints like polyurethane don't lose much weight as they cure, and I don't think latex does either. It would be interesting to do a test such as this, comparing dope, latex, polyurethane, the Stewart system, and PolyTone. 3. Final Finish. Polyurethane tops the list here, if you want a shiny, wet look finish that you can see yourself in. For a duller finish, dope or PolyTone makes a very snice, smooth finish. I have not seen a Stewart Systems paint job that I know of. The latex paint jobs I've seen have not impressed me with the finish. 4. Cost. As I understand it, the costs are ranked from cheapest to most expensive as follows: Latex, Dope, Stewart, PolyTone, Polyurethane. 5. Ease of Application. Nothing could be easier than rolling on a coat of house paint, but the end result will look like rolled on house paint. Sprayed latex is more trouble, but still doesn't have much in the way of VOCs. Next is probably the Stewart System, with its water based paint. Then would be dope and PolyTone, with polyurethane the most trouble to paint and the most dangerous, requiring a full face mask with supplied air due to the toxic gases generated as it cures. 6. Ease of Repair. Don't think you won't ever have to repair the fabric on your Pietenpol. As the saying goes "Feces Occurs". The easiest system to repair is PolyTone, since you can just wipe the repair area with a rag soaked in MEK and the finish wipes right off. Dope is nearly as easy. I don't know enough about the Stewart System to know how to repair it. Latex and polyurethane must be sanded off and that is very difficult to do without going too far and damaging the underlying fabric. Having laid all this out, I can only comment from experience in all six of these areas with polyurethane, and my comment there is that I would not use it again. It is very difficult to apply without getting a lot of orange-peel (at least for me), it is EXTREMELY difficult to repair, it is very expensive and it is very heavy. The only thing good about it is it's extremely durable and it looks good. Next time I would use the PolyFiber system with PolyTone paint. Let the flames begin. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gboothe5 Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 8:41 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes Certainly apples vs. oranges. As you may have noticed on the Bell Piet, they went to great length to give the fabric a weave look as in old linen. I have not investigated Sears Weatherbeater paint, or any other brand other than Benjamin Moore, as I have locked in on the Aura line from BM, a zero VOC paint. Their data sheet advertises never more than 2 coats for full coverage and protection, including wind driven rain. As an A&P myself, I fully respect your background and perspective, but can't help being intrigued by out-of-the-box thinking...just want to keep the facts straight. Gary -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dangerous Dave Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 4:12 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes Gary,The point I'm trying to make is that it takes 3 cross coats of Eco Fill to give the fabric full protection,then the 4 coats of paint for a finish.It has a scientifically proven UV rating.House paint has UV protection also but how many coats do you need to get to the 100% protection,probably 3 crosscoats thats 6 actual coats,does anyone put on that much and what are the weight penalties.Can't help it, its the anal A&P in me.The one thing I have noticed with the house paint finishes that I have seen is that you can see the weave of the fabric through the paint indicating there's only 2 coats.And do you wet the fabric before painting to get maximum adhesion?dave -------- Covering Piet Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329553#329553 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:01 AM PST US From: norm Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: leading edge plywood For plywood hold, Arrow JT-21 stapler with 1/4'' staples for 1/16'' ply and =0A5/16''for 1/8','every 3'' or so.=0A,-pull them when done . no damage with ths gun many builders use meth=0A=0A=0A=0A____________________________ ____=0AFrom: TOM MICHELLE BRANT =0ATo: "pietenpol-list@mat ronics.com" =0ASent: Thu, February 3, 2011 9: 11:44 PM=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: leading edge plywood=0A=0AMaybe a stupi d question but I can't figure it out (what's that say about me??)=0A=0AWher e do you start the leading edge plywood from?- If you start from the bott om =0Aof the leading edge, how is it held in place while gluing - are nails used?- Or =0Ado you start it from the top of the leading edge and sand i t into the curve of =0Athe wing? - I just don't see anything in the plans ====== =0A=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:29 AM PST US From: "TOM STINEMETZE" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: leading edge plywood If you have to use meth to use this staple gun, I want nothing to do with it. do not archive >>> norm 2/4/2011 9:25 AM >>> no damage with ths gun many builders use meth ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:13 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: leading edge plywood From: Rick Holland Good question. On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 7:11 PM, TOM MICHELLE BRANT wrote: > Maybe a stupid question but I can't figure it out (what's that say about > me??) > > Where do you start the leading edge plywood from? If you start from the > bottom of the leading edge, how is it held in place while gluing - are nails > used? Or do you start it from the top of the leading edge and sand it into > the curve of the wing? I just don't see anything in the plans for this. > > Thanks, > > Tom B. > > * > > * > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:32 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: leading edge plywood From: Rick Holland Ditto. On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 8:25 AM, norm wrote: > For plywood hold, Arrow JT-21 stapler with 1/4'' staples for 1/16'' ply and > 5/16''for 1/8','every 3'' or so. > , pull them when done . no damage with ths gun many builders use meth > > ------------------------------ > *From:* TOM MICHELLE BRANT > *To:* "pietenpol-list@matronics.com" > *Sent:* Thu, February 3, 2011 9:11:44 PM > *Subject:* Pietenpol-List: leading edge plywood > > Maybe a stupid question but I can't figure it out (what's that say about > me??) > > Where do you start the leading edge plywood from? If you start from the > bottom of the leading edge, how is it held in place while gluing - are nails > used? Or do you start it from the top of the leading edge and sand it into > the curve of the wing? I just don't see anything in the plans for this. > > Thanks, > > Tom B. > > * > > * > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:56 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes From: Rick Holland Correct, my 5+ year test panel proves that. On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 9:38 PM, Gboothe5 wrote: > > Not so fast, Dave! Your work is definitely exceptional, but I question the > statement that "... there is not much uv protection in housepaint...". > Almost all paints contain Titanium Dioxide...the same Titanium Dioxide used > in sun block. House paints would have to block UV if they were to protect > wood. Benjamin Moore Exterior Aura brand paints describe their UV > protection > as "Extreme." > > Rhetorical question - How long should one leave the fabric on a wood framed > airplane, no matter what dope/paint is used? > > Gary Boothe > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dangerous > Dave > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 6:00 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes > > > I have used the Stewart System and think its great.I used Ceconite fabric > and all the rest is Stewart.All of it has cost about 2200.The difference is > about 1100 in paint.The reason I didn't go with housepaint is I plan on > keeping the plane for a long time and there is not much uv protection in > housepaint Stewarts has 100% protection and if done right will never need a > recover even if left outside.As to the other systems I've used them all > and would like to hang on to the 3 brain cells I have left.dave > > -------- > Covering Piet > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329530#329530 > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:48 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes From: "K5YAC" -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329573#329573 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:19 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes From: "Bill Church" Sometimes I just can't help myself.... Gary wrote: Again, I ask the rhetorical question: How long should a fabric and paint application last on a wood framed aircraft, before it is removed to merely inspect the frame? Ive been told 10 years is appropriate. Gary Grandma Simpson and Lisa are singing Bob Dylan's "Blowin' in the Wind" ("How many roads must a man walk down/Before you call him a man?"). Homer overhears and says, "Eight!" Lisa: "That was a rhetorical question!" Homer: "Oh. Then, seven!" Lisa: "Do you even know what 'rhetorical' means?" Homer: "Do I know what 'rhetorical' means?" Sorry, Gary. Didn't know you were actually looking for a real answer. (by the way, I don't have one) Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329574#329574 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:30:50 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: leading edge plywood From: "K5YAC" I knew something wasn't right with some of you guys... and it wasn't just the MEK. coevst(at)yahoo.com wrote: > many builders use meth -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329576#329576 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:14 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes From: "Bill Church" The fact of the matter is that all solvent-based products are becoming less and less common all the time, and in the not-too-distant future, legislation will probably make products like Butyrate dope and Polytone illegal, or at least highly regulated. Look how much metal gets powder coated these days, compared to wet paint. Because of this movement towards low VOC finishes, fabric covered aircraft builders will all probably eventually be forced to use other methods than the "traditional" finishes. There will be those who will say that they will NEVER be able to stop people finishing with dope, but I remember not so long ago hearing people saying that there was no way that they would be able to stop people from smoking in public places. It's just a matter of time. Luckily there are some people out there like Stewart's who have developed new low-VOC, water-based products, and some homebuilders that are experimenting with latex house paint. Before long we'll have sufficient real-world experience to be able to determine just how well these alternative finishes work on a fabric-covered aircraft that gets stored in an open hangar (or not), and is exposed to the actual stresses of flight, over the long term. Unfortunately, I don't think it's a question of IF, but rather WHEN the "normal" finish for a fabric covered aircraft will be water-based. I'm a big fan of "traditional" ways, but I also can appreciate newer or even just different technologies that are safer for us to use. Saving a few brain cells sounds like a good idea to me. I know I will need to use some of mine, from time to time, so it's probably best to hang on to the ones I have. Bill C. (stepping off the soap box) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329578#329578 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:53 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: leading edge plywood From: "K5YAC" I forgot to add that the 1/4" x 1/4" strips were recessed 1/16" to allow the plywood sheet to but against the LE and provide a minimal seam. Ran the sanding block along the edge and it is smooth and straight. It worked well, but I've got a no-no that I may have to address... I used 1/4" nails to secure the front edge and then clamped at the rear. From what I read I probably shouldn't have done this. I guess I am hoping that the spar varnish and a light felt wrap will provide adequate protection. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329579#329579 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:51:16 AM PST US From: norm Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: leading edge plywood Bad keyboard I guess, gotta place the blame somewhere -- lol----- ------ =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: TOM STINEMETZE =0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com=0ASent : Fri, February 4, 2011 10:50:31 AM=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: leading edge plywood=0A=0A=0AIf you have to use meth to use this staple gun, I want nothing to do with it.=0A-=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A>>> norm 2/4/2011 9:25 AM >>>=0Ano damage with ths gun many builders use met ================ =0A=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:51:23 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes From: "Bill Church" The fact of the matter is that all solvent-based products are becoming less and less common all the time, and in the not-too-distant future, legislation will probably make products like Butyrate dope and Polytone illegal, or at least highly regulated. Look how much metal gets powder coated these days, compared to wet paint. Because of this movement towards low VOC finishes, fabric covered aircraft builders will all probably eventually be forced to use other methods than the "traditional" finishes. There will be those who will say that they will NEVER be able to stop people finishing with dope, but I remember not so long ago hearing people saying that there was no way that they would be able to stop people from smoking in public places. It's just a matter of time. Luckily there are some people out there like Stewart's who have developed new low-VOC, water-based products, and some homebuilders that are experimenting with latex house paint. Before long we'll have sufficient real-world experience to be able to determine just how well these alternative finishes work on a fabric-covered aircraft that gets stored in an open hangar (or not), and is exposed to the actual stresses of flight, over the long term. Unfortunately, I don't think it's a question of IF, but rather WHEN the "normal" finish for a fabric covered aircraft will be water-based. I'm a big fan of "traditional" ways, but I also can appreciate newer or even just different technologies that are safer for us to use. Saving a few brain cells sounds like a good idea to me. I know I will need to use some of mine, from time to time, so it's probably best to hang on to the ones I have. Bill C. (stepping off the soap box) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329580#329580 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:58:43 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes From: "dgaldrich" There is also the very real question of how long you can or should leave an aircraft covered. Dacron, if taken care of, has an almost unlimited lifespan, but is this necessarily a good thing. I submit that it is not. An awful lot of things can go sideways in a fabric covered structure that can't be seen well enough through those little inspection holes. Once it's back to bare bones, everything is touchable and inspectable. That was one of the upsides of cotton. Every 10 years or so, you HAD to look at everything, whether you wanted to or not. Personally, I'd be a little leery of buying a certified aircraft that was last covered in the 80's. My opinion and un-copyrighted... Dave do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329586#329586 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:07:59 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes From: "bamabuilder" I've been reading the last couple of days that the only way to remove latex or poly is to sand. I'm no A&P, but that's not totally true. There are a couple of products that can be bought from most big box or mom n pops hardware stores. A good one goes by Klean-Strip Brush Cleaner. The contents are fairly toxic to say the least. Acetone, Methanol, Methylene Chloride, Toluene, and Xylene. It's made to clean the crude that builds up in paint brushes. To remove the paint from a surface, just soak a rag and wipe away. The paint will begin to soften very quickly. I can't testify for the covering material on an airplane, but I do know it WILL NOT harm a paint brush. It can be used on all brushes, china bristle or nylon. By the way new guy/lurker Now, does anyone care to take the spoon? JV Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329590#329590 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:08 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes I think 10 years is a bit TOO frequent. Maybe 15 or 20. My fabric has been on for nearly 7 years now and I know I sure don't feel like covering it again anytime soon. Maybe if it were tied down outside, but the only time it is exposed to several days of sunshine in a row is at Brodhead and Oshkosh. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dgaldrich Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 11:57 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes There is also the very real question of how long you can or should leave an aircraft covered. Dacron, if taken care of, has an almost unlimited lifespan, but is this necessarily a good thing. I submit that it is not. An awful lot of things can go sideways in a fabric covered structure that can't be seen well enough through those little inspection holes. Once it's back to bare bones, everything is touchable and inspectable. That was one of the upsides of cotton. Every 10 years or so, you HAD to look at everything, whether you wanted to or not. Personally, I'd be a little leery of buying a certified aircraft that was last covered in the 80's. My opinion and un-copyrighted... Dave do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329586#329586 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:27:25 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes Have you tried it on polyurethane? I'd be very surprised if it works. I have tried methyl ethyl ketone (MEK), acetone, methylene chloride and toluene with no result. Normally this is a good thing. I've spilled brake fluid, gasoline, compass fluid and other organic solvents on my paint with no blemish, which would certainly not be true for dope and I doubt if it's true for latex. The only problem with polyurethane comes when trying to remove it. Once you have sanded it down to the silver, MEK works nicely to remove it (dissolving the silver underneath so the polyurethane comes off in sheets), but the only way I've found to get down to the silver is sandpaper and elbow grease. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bamabuilder Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 12:06 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes I've been reading the last couple of days that the only way to remove latex or poly is to sand. I'm no A&P, but that's not totally true. There are a couple of products that can be bought from most big box or mom n pops hardware stores. A good one goes by Klean-Strip Brush Cleaner. The contents are fairly toxic to say the least. Acetone, Methanol, Methylene Chloride, Toluene, and Xylene. It's made to clean the crude that builds up in paint brushes. To remove the paint from a surface, just soak a rag and wipe away. The paint will begin to soften very quickly. I can't testify for the covering material on an airplane, but I do know it WILL NOT harm a paint brush. It can be used on all brushes, china bristle or nylon. By the way new guy/lurker Now, does anyone care to take the spoon? JV Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329590#329590 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:28:08 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol near Olive Branch, MS? From: "A Future Pilot" Thank you very much! To all of you! This is a great community! For an update on the "building"...I'm planning on buying the Corvair Conversion manual, and the Flyer and Glider builders manual, today. I'm actively saving up for the plans (I'm going to get the original, supplemental, and 3-piece, package from the website) and should be able to buy them in a few weeks. I'll talk to my dad, and we'll probably get in touch with Mr. Beck once we move. And I'll definitely give you a call this fall Mr. Kevin. Thanks again! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329596#329596 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:55 AM PST US From: airlion Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol near Olive Branch, MS? Way to go Mr. Future Pilot. You definitely will not forget it. Cheers, Mr. Airlion --- On Fri, 2/4/11, A Future Pilot wrote: > From: A Future Pilot > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol near Olive Branch, MS? > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Date: Friday, February 4, 2011, 12:25 PM > --> Pietenpol-List message posted > by: "A Future Pilot" > > Thank you very much! To all of you! This is a great > community! > > For an update on the "building"...I'm planning on buying > the Corvair Conversion manual, and the Flyer and Glider > builders manual, today. I'm actively saving up for the plans > (I'm going to get the original, supplemental, and 3-piece, > package from the website) and should be able to buy them in > a few weeks. > > I'll talk to my dad, and we'll probably get in touch with > Mr. Beck once we move. And I'll definitely give you a call > this fall Mr. Kevin. Thanks again! > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329596#329596 > > > > > > > > Email Forum - > FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:50 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: leading edge plywood Mine. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:44 AM PST US From: "Brad Roberts" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Rookie Hello, All I'm new to the Pietenpol world and want to start building one of these incredible planes as soon as possible. I've completed the restoration of an Aeronca 11-AC Chief and am flying an RV-7 which I built from a standard kit. I'm looking forward to learning the unique skills that are need for the Piet. Are there any of you in or around the Dallas / Ft. Worth area who are building a Piet? If we ever dig out from this snow, I'd like to see a project first hand and get your general advice on tools, shop set-up, etc. My contact info is below. Thanks for your help. Brad Roberts 214-912-0329 ber0101@swbell.net ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:03 AM PST US From: "Jack" Subject: RE: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes Tom Brown, are you lurking out there? If I recall he just recovered his Piet which is and was beautiful. Again if memory is reliable he had 20 years on the last cover job. Not sure of the fabric but I believe his dad used translucent spar varnish. Also BTW he has the highest time crank-snappin corvair flying. I plan on using cotton sheets, Elmer's Glue and thinned varnish so everybody can see all the woodwork, probably won't rib stitch either... Jack DSM -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Phillips Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 11:10 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes I think 10 years is a bit TOO frequent. Maybe 15 or 20. My fabric has been on for nearly 7 years now and I know I sure don't feel like covering it again anytime soon. Maybe if it were tied down outside, but the only time it is exposed to several days of sunshine in a row is at Brodhead and Oshkosh. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dgaldrich Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 11:57 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes There is also the very real question of how long you can or should leave an aircraft covered. Dacron, if taken care of, has an almost unlimited lifespan, but is this necessarily a good thing. I submit that it is not. An awful lot of things can go sideways in a fabric covered structure that can't be seen well enough through those little inspection holes. Once it's back to bare bones, everything is touchable and inspectable. That was one of the upsides of cotton. Every 10 years or so, you HAD to look at everything, whether you wanted to or not. Personally, I'd be a little leery of buying a certified aircraft that was last covered in the 80's. My opinion and un-copyrighted... Dave do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329586#329586 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:21 AM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: leading edge plywood How about the lower part of the nose back to the spar? Does it not need to be covered with plywood? ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Holland To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 11:09 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: leading edge plywood Good question. On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 7:11 PM, TOM MICHELLE BRANT wrote: Maybe a stupid question but I can't figure it out (what's that say about me??) Where do you start the leading edge plywood from? If you start from the bottom of the leading edge, how is it held in place while gluing - are nails used? Or do you start it from the top of the leading edge and sand it into the curve of the wing? I just don't see anything in the plans for this. Thanks, Tom B. " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:21 AM PST US From: "Jack" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Rookie Brad, Welcome to the list and fraternity of very diverse folks! You need to get on the Piet Directory Listing, which has a few TX listings. To get a copy fill out the attached template and return to me. I will send you the latest listing then. Welcome again to Team Pietenpol! Jack DSM Keeper of the list _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brad Roberts Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 12:08 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Rookie Hello, All I'm new to the Pietenpol world and want to start building one of these incredible planes as soon as possible. I've completed the restoration of an Aeronca 11-AC Chief and am flying an RV-7 which I built from a standard kit. I'm looking forward to learning the unique skills that are need for the Piet. Are there any of you in or around the Dallas / Ft. Worth area who are building a Piet? If we ever dig out from this snow, I'd like to see a project first hand and get your general advice on tools, shop set-up, etc. My contact info is below. Thanks for your help. Brad Roberts 214-912-0329 ber0101@swbell.net ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:27 AM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: leading edge plywood I'm going to ask a stupid question -- what is meth? An how and why is it used? ----- Original Message ----- From: TOM STINEMETZE To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 10:50 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: leading edge plywood If you have to use meth to use this staple gun, I want nothing to do with it. do not archive >>> norm 2/4/2011 9:25 AM >>> no damage with ths gun many builders use meth ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:27 AM PST US From: Lawrence Williams Subject: Pietenpol-List: Paint discussion ad nauseum Well....I just talked to my anonymous Pietenpol paint expert and here are a few things he said: 1. MEK based stuff is the greatest because it chemically adheres to other MEK based products ie. if you use Stitts (Poly-Fiber) for your base as many do, putting a top coat on that isn't MEK based won't adhere. (Big note here-for the test panels....what was your initial base? If you went through poly-spray or silver with Poly-Fiber and used latex over that, stick a piece of duct tape on the panel and let it adhere for a few days and then peel it off. Does the latex come off of the fabric??) 2. Alan Wise's Piet ( in the museum @ Lakeland since 2006 ??) was sprayed with a thin coat of Stitts silver sometime before 1962 and never touched again. It flew to fly-ins around FL pretty much every week-end, made it to Brodhead and Oshkosh almost every year and was at Sun-N-Fun every year. The only part that was recovered was the rudder after taxiing around without a tailwheel assembly for a few weeks. Still looks pretty good for a 40+ year cover/paint job that saw a LOT of UV over it's lifetime. 3. "I never worried about the MEK. As a matter of fact I washed my face and hands with it after a paint job and the only thing you have to watch out for is don't open your eyes before it evaporates or it'll sting them a little." Like the label says - California has found that it may be a carcinogen and/or cause birth defects so.....as long as you aren't using it in California, you should be fine. 5. The alkalides (sp?) in latex house paint will allow it to adhere to aluminum better than almost any other paint! I used the Poly-Fiber system from start to finish on 899LW and don't remember ever buying a whole gallon of anything. Moral-don't make a decision based on published "kit" or "package" prices/quantities. Do your own homework and use a little common sense. As I stated before, it got so confusing trying to sift through all the claims and sales talk that I wound up using an industry standard that was proven to be simple and effective and has been around for a long, long time. Larry This subject comes around often enough so Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 10:49:03 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes From: "bamabuilder" JP a little more reserch leads me to believe you are correct about the polyuethane, my bad. My test piece was very old and my suspicion is that it was a shellac. As for latex, cuts it like butter. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329615#329615 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 11:06:55 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: leading edge plywood Methamphetamines. From your local "meth lab" _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Campbell Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 1:27 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: leading edge plywood I'm going to ask a stupid question -- what is meth? An how and why is it used? ----- Original Message ----- From: TOM STINEMETZE Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 10:50 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: leading edge plywood If you have to use meth to use this staple gun, I want nothing to do with it. do not archive >>> norm 2/4/2011 9:25 AM >>> no damage with ths gun many builders use meth href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 11:12:01 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: leading edge plywood From: Rick Holland No, ply just the top, spar to LE. On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Charles Campbell wrote: > How about the lower part of the nose back to the spar? Does it not need > to be covered with plywood? > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Rick Holland > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Friday, February 04, 2011 11:09 AM > *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: leading edge plywood > > Good question. > > > On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 7:11 PM, TOM MICHELLE BRANT wrote: > >> Maybe a stupid question but I can't figure it out (what's that say about >> me??) >> >> Where do you start the leading edge plywood from? If you start from the >> bottom of the leading edge, how is it held in place while gluing - are nails >> used? Or do you start it from the top of the leading edge and sand it into >> the curve of the wing? I just don't see anything in the plans for this. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Tom B. >> >> * >> >> " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> * >> >> > > > -- > Rick Holland > Castle Rock, Colorado > > "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" > > * > > > * > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:23 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: leading edge plywood Not per the plans. I didn't cover my lower leading edge and most don't. See photo below: Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Campbell Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 1:30 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: leading edge plywood How about the lower part of the nose back to the spar? Does it not need to be covered with plywood? ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:56 AM PST US From: "TOM STINEMETZE" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: leading edge plywood METH is one of those home brewed, mind altering,sthupid chemicals that meth-es with your head and maks you do sthupid things that you will regret later. (Much like my spelling.) It has no place in the aircraft community whatsoever. short for "methamphetamines" Stinemetze now off of my soapbox do not archive >>> "Charles Campbell" 2/4/2011 12:26 PM >>> I'm going to ask a stupid question -- what is meth? An how and why is it used? ----- Original Message ----- From: TOM STINEMETZE ( mailto:TOMS@mcpcity.com ) Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 10:50 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: leading edge plywood If you have to use meth to use this staple gun, I want nothing to do with it. do not archive ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 12:01:22 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes From: "DOMIT" Hmmm... I wonder if, to get a "clear doped linen" appearance, one could dye the fabric and apply a clear polyurethane finish? (Yes, I know, no UV protection... it would have to be recovered every 3 hours and 17 minutes of flight time, etc...) -------- Brad "DOMIT" Smith First rule of ground school: This is the ground... don't hit it going fast. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329635#329635 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 12:03:41 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: leading edge plywood From: "Bill Church" Like Jack said, not per the plans. BC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329636#329636 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/leading_edge_ply_387.jpg ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 12:16:57 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Rookie From: "K5YAC" Welcome Brad! A good bunch of folks here and lots of information. Hey Jack, can you send me that directory again when you get a minute... I meant to save it to my notes and must have forgot. Thanks! -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329638#329638 ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 12:51:45 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes From: Rick Holland Have seen one Piet and a Jenny done this way, as long as its in ahanger most of the time what the hay? I looks great. On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 12:58 PM, DOMIT wrote: > > Hmmm... I wonder if, to get a "clear doped linen" appearance, one could dye > the fabric and apply a clear polyurethane finish? (Yes, I know, no UV > protection... it would have to be recovered every 3 hours and 17 minutes of > flight time, etc...) > > -------- > Brad "DOMIT" Smith > > First rule of ground school: This is the ground... don't hit it going > fast. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329635#329635 > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 01:21:04 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes From: "Bill Church" Like this? http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Brown%20Aero/images/nx37979.jpg Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329644#329644 ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 01:43:59 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dillsburg Redux From: "dgaldrich" Based on Mark's reply, I looked more carefully at the tubing which I bought as one length cut into shippable pieces. There ARE faint marks, VERY faint, almost unreadable, that seem to indicate it is maybe the right stuff. I'm still going to turn it into practice art and wind chimes since I have no idea where it came from and I REALLY want to trust the stuff in an engine mount. In fairness, the sheet steel I got at the same time seems OK. Dave do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329646#329646 ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 02:15:11 PM PST US From: Ben Charvet Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes The circles I cut out of my inspection holes can be wadded up in a ball and will fold out flat with no adverse flexing effects (latex). Polyurethane, on the other hand, is harder than hammered cat s**t, and I've seen airplanes covered in it with all kinds of bullseye cracks after a few years. After all is said in done, my opinion should not effect someone else who is tied to an FAA approved system, but I'd suggest that someone still on the fence, come to Brodhead and compare some airplanes side by side. Just for reference, my Douglas Fir, Latex painted Pietenpol in at 692 pounds empty with a Continental A-65 Ben Charvet > > _Flexibility_. Almost all paints are subjected to some sort of > flexibility test. The BM Aura brand paints are tested to ASTM D522...a > conical test that shows the product's ability to stay bonded to a > substrate as the substrate is bent around a cone. > > ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 03:07:45 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes From: "Dangerous Dave" Gary,we need to have a couple of beers!This forum is great for provoking thought,great people,multitudes of different ideas and opinions,not sure if we should play darts though.LOL dave-not so dangerous do not archive -------- Covering Piet Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329660#329660 ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:49 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes Been gone on a 10-day road trip that definitely made me grouchy! But I'm home now, and have already run my fingers up her gear legs, all the way...to the fittings! It just occurred to me: If I have a beer or a shot of Canadian Whiskey with everyone I have offered, I'll be lit from Wednesday - Sunday! And I don't hardly drink....much... Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, Running! Tail done, Fuselage on gear (24 ribs down.) Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dangerous Dave Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 3:05 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes Gary,we need to have a couple of beers!This forum is great for provoking thought,great people,multitudes of different ideas and opinions,not sure if we should play darts though.LOL dave-not so dangerous do not archive -------- Covering Piet Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329660#329660 ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 09:00:25 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Rookie From: "kevinpurtee" Hi Brad - There are a bunch of us in TX. Curtis Merdan is near you. I'm sure he'll check in. I'm in Austin. You're welcome to come take a look. I'm out of town but will be back mid-March. You can also visit Tim Willis' project in Austin. Kevin -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329685#329685 ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:26 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Paint discussion ad nauseum From: "kevinpurtee" But Larry, what about that 3rd eye growing on your forehead????? [Wink] do not archive Kevin, a satisfied poly-fiber user -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329687#329687 ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:56 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Paint discussion ad nauseum From: "kevinpurtee" BTW: MEK is only the cleaning solvent. I'm pretty darn sure that none of the poly-fiber poly-tone products use MEK in the coatings. -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329688#329688 ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:37 PM PST US From: TOM MICHELLE BRANT Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: leading edge plywood Thanks for all the replies on the leading edge - I think I can sort it out from what everyone told me. Side note in case anyone cares.... I'm working on the center section after hastily putting it together in July. My mother was dying from cancer at t he time and we were going to build the CC together. She ended up getting t oo weak too quick and I kept pushing to get the CC done while she was still here - just to show her. In my rush=2C I'm paying for some lack of planni ng now. It's nothing beyond repair but it's gonna be a bit of a pain. My father has offered to help get it completed in honor of my mom. I'm happy to be back in the game making some progress on the Piet. 3 steps forward 2 steps back I guess. Tom B. From: catdesigns@att.net Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: leading edge plywood Tom Near the bottom you will find several pictures of how I did the leading edge ply. http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Chris%20Tracy/Wings.htm If you look closely you can see I overlapped the plywood onto the leading edge int o a recess I left for it. The leading edge (poplar) was finished to shape after the plywood was installed. Chris Sacramento=2C Ca Westcoastpiet.com From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOM MICHELLE BRANT Sent: Thursday=2C February 03=2C 2011 6:12 PM pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: leading edge plywood Maybe a stupid question but I can't figure it out (what's that say about me??) Where do you start the leading edge plywood from? If you start from the bottom of the leading edge=2C how is it held in place wh ile gluing - are nails used? Or do you start it from the top of the leading edge and sand it into the curve of the wing? I just don't see anything in the plans for this. Thanks=2C Tom B. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 09:39:05 PM PST US From: Gene Rambo Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Paint discussion ad nauseum not the finish=2C but the cement is MEK based!! That is why I am using Stew art Systems cement to cover=2C even though I am using dope for the finish. Stewart even blessed me doing that=2C said dope wont hurt the glue. And I thought they would say I had to use their finishes . . . Gene Rambo > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Paint discussion ad nauseum > From: kevin.purtee@us.army.mil > Date: Fri=2C 4 Feb 2011 21:07:46 -0800 > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > .mil> > > BTW: MEK is only the cleaning solvent. I'm pretty darn sure that none of the poly-fiber poly-tone products use MEK in the coatings. > > -------- > Kevin "=3BAxel"=3B Purtee > NX899KP > Austin/Georgetown=2C TX > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329688#329688 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.