---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 02/19/11: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:15 AM - Re: Moving Axle Centerline () 2. 06:15 AM - Re: Re: Piet outdoors (Jim Markle) 3. 08:40 AM - Re: Streamline Tubing (Jack Phillips) 4. 08:46 AM - Re: Streamline Tubing (Gary Boothe) 5. 08:51 AM - Re: Piet outdoors (V Groah) 6. 04:42 PM - Inspired by The Other Jack (Gary Boothe) 7. 04:42 PM - Re: Piet outdoors (Gary Boothe) 8. 05:07 PM - Routed Spar weight (Kenneth Bickers) 9. 05:08 PM - Re: Rolling Steel Marbles in My Left Hand (kevinpurtee) 10. 05:10 PM - Harmonic Vibrations (Gary Boothe) 11. 05:25 PM - Re: Harmonic Vibrations (mike Hardaway) 12. 05:34 PM - Re: Routed Spar weight (Jack Phillips) 13. 05:37 PM - Re: Harmonic Vibrations (Jack Phillips) 14. 05:49 PM - Re: Routed Spar weight (Kenneth Bickers) 15. 05:55 PM - Re: Piet outdoors (Jim Boyer) 16. 06:14 PM - Re: Re: Rolling Steel Marbles in My Left Hand (Gary Boothe) 17. 06:32 PM - Re: Inspired by The Other Jack (Jack) 18. 07:56 PM - Re: Streamline Tubing (Ken_P) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:15:13 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Moving Axle Centerline Thanks Tom From: TOM STINEMETZE Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 10:21 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Moving Axle Centerline Tim: The fuselage attach points need to remain in the same locations as that is where the bracing structure is designed to accept the loads. I am just about to do the same thing that you are suggesting, i.e. shorten the front tube and lengthen the back one. This will actually mean that the front tube is transmitting more of the load to the front fuselage attachment point than before due to the change in moment arm but that has apparently not been a problem for others who have done this. Stinemetze N328X >>> 2/18/2011 9:00 AM >>> Having read the Wynne articles in the BPA newsletter concerning landing gear and CG location where he cautions builders not to have the landing gear aft of the wing leading edge, I have the following questions: My fuselage is already built with the white ash cross struts on the floor bottom. I am planning on using the split axle gear with hydraulic brakes. How can I move the axle forward and still use the same fuselage mounting gear location for the landing gear? Can I shorten the forward landing gear tube and lengthen the rear tube? Am I missing something? Tim White (Long fuselage, C-85-12) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:15:19 AM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet outdoors If you think ABE might like to spend his summer vacations on a farm....let me know. Jim...on the farm. PETA: People Eating Tasty Animals -----Original Message----- >From: Jerry Dotson >Sent: Feb 18, 2011 9:00 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet outdoors > > >He is a Yorkshire terrier 8 months old. We had an outdoor rat and mouse problem before "ABE" came on the scene. PETA would not like him. He kills every one he can find. > >-------- >Jerry Dotson >59 Daniel Johnson Rd >Baker, FL 32531 > >Started building NX510JD July, 2009 >wing, tailfeathers done, fuselage rolling >using Lycoming O-235 > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331478#331478 > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:40:44 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Streamline Tubing Hey Gary, I just got the tubing in the mail and it fits the pitot tube perfectly. I'll post a picture of the completed assembly when I get it together. Thanks again for the tubing. I'll have a cold beer and a glass of good single malt scotch for you at Brodhead this year. And you'll be happy to know (and Ken Potts can verify, because he was there) that I refrained from an excellent opportunity to bash Corvairs today at our local EAA Chapter meeting, when it was announced that Ken is putting a Corvair on his Zenith CH750. If ever there was a combination that just begged disparaging , that was it. But I refrained, out of respect for you. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gboothe5 Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 4:04 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Streamline Tubing Vic, That truly was an inspired attempt to quell the dissidents. Unfortunately, as Jack pointed out, forces of immeasurable strength are gathering against us. Right now, thanks to John Hofmann, tens of thousands of uninformed individuals in the mid-west are right now sporting shirts and sweatshirts and caps with the attached. Gary, :-( From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Phillips Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 10:26 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Streamline Tubing No, you all get to enjoy the 30 days (29 now) that Gary has won for you. I mean, this is going to be pretty hard on me. Perhaps I should have just taken the tubing that Dan Helsper offered and been free to lambast the Corvairs. Of course, all the things I would have said during that 30 day period will just build into a backlog that will come out once the 30 days is up. Now is the time (during this time of enforced good will) for any of you with flying Corvairs that have found, ah, "inconsistencies" with your powerplants that you were afraid to make public, to come forward and confess with no worry of condemnation. Of course, I have no control over John Hofmann or his friend, der Fuhrer. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of V Groah Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 1:09 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Streamline Tubing Some of us looked at our stock, only to find different sizes and not yours. Does that count for another week of corviar good will?? Maybe if enoungh of us corvair guys have looked for your tubing we can win another whole month of lack of critisism of us corvair guys?? Give it some thought. Vic do not archive _____ From: gboothe5@comcast.net Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Streamline Tubing Jack, I'll hold you to your refrain, but my price for a short piece of streamline tubing is 1 beer at Brodhead.your credit is good. Gary _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Phillips Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 6:47 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Streamline Tubing Hi Gary, Thanks a lot! I figured somebody in the Pietenpol world would help me out. In your honor I will refrain for a period of 30 days from making disparaging remarks about Corvairs. Send me your address and I'll send you a check. Send the tubing to: Jack Phillips 9916 Bonsal Crossing New Hill, NC 27562 I'll see what the postage was and add that to the $10. I really only need a little over 3" of the tubing, so if you wish, just cut that much off and send it. You might need the rest for something else someday. Thanks again! Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gboothe5 Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 7:34 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Streamline Tubing Jack, I may not have 30 ribs, but I have 14.5" of that exact piece, and it has your name written all over it! Gary Boothe From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Phillips Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:23 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Streamline Tubing While we're asking each other for short lengths of tubing (or rod, in some cases), I thought I'd see if anyone on the list has some streamline tubing that I could buy. I'm making a heated pitot tube for the RV-10 I'm building. Since I learned to build airplanes with my Pietenpol, I don't exactly fit the mold of the typical RV-10 builder. Most of them just think nothing of shelling out $500 for a new heated pitot tube. I can't afford that much money for something that I hope to never need, so I scrounged around and found a used one from a Cessna 172 on ebay for $75. I received it today and tested it (both for pitot function and heating) and found that it works, after I blew all the mud dauber nests out of it. But I need to make a mount to extend it below the surface of the wing (Van's recommends 5"). The pitot tube has a 90 degree bend with a streamlined cross section that is made to slip into a piece of streamlined tubing. I need about 3" of streamlined tubing with a wall thickness of .049", a major axis of 2.023" and a minor axis of .857". Aircraft Spruce has such tubing, but the minimum order is 1 foot, for a price of $23.00. If anybody has such a piece of tubing lying around, I'll happily pay $10 for it. I didn't even bother posting this request on the RV-10 list. They'd never understand that this is the kind of thing REAL homebuilding is all about. All they want to do is complain about the quality of Van's kits (which is superb) and whine about which type of glass cockpit electronics to buy. They already look askance at me because I bought the engine (an O-540 Lycoming) on ebay with the intentions of overhauling it myself. All the RV-10 builders I know have bought NEW IO-540's for a price of over $50,000 each. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Raleigh, NC http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution st" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ttp://forums.matronics.com =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:46:11 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Streamline Tubing You're an honorable man! Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, Running! Tail done, Fuselage on gear, RIBS DONE! _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Phillips Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2011 8:38 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Streamline Tubing Hey Gary, I just got the tubing in the mail and it fits the pitot tube perfectly. I'll post a picture of the completed assembly when I get it together. Thanks again for the tubing. I'll have a cold beer and a glass of good single malt scotch for you at Brodhead this year. And you'll be happy to know (and Ken Potts can verify, because he was there) that I refrained from an excellent opportunity to bash Corvairs today at our local EAA Chapter meeting, when it was announced that Ken is putting a Corvair on his Zenith CH750. If ever there was a combination that just begged disparaging , that was it. But I refrained, out of respect for you. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gboothe5 Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 4:04 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Streamline Tubing Vic, That truly was an inspired attempt to quell the dissidents. Unfortunately, as Jack pointed out, forces of immeasurable strength are gathering against us. Right now, thanks to John Hofmann, tens of thousands of uninformed individuals in the mid-west are right now sporting shirts and sweatshirts and caps with the attached. Gary, :-( From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Phillips Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 10:26 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Streamline Tubing No, you all get to enjoy the 30 days (29 now) that Gary has won for you. I mean, this is going to be pretty hard on me. Perhaps I should have just taken the tubing that Dan Helsper offered and been free to lambast the Corvairs. Of course, all the things I would have said during that 30 day period will just build into a backlog that will come out once the 30 days is up. Now is the time (during this time of enforced good will) for any of you with flying Corvairs that have found, ah, "inconsistencies" with your powerplants that you were afraid to make public, to come forward and confess with no worry of condemnation. Of course, I have no control over John Hofmann or his friend, der Fuhrer. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of V Groah Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 1:09 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Streamline Tubing Some of us looked at our stock, only to find different sizes and not yours. Does that count for another week of corviar good will?? Maybe if enoungh of us corvair guys have looked for your tubing we can win another whole month of lack of critisism of us corvair guys?? Give it some thought. Vic do not archive _____ From: gboothe5@comcast.net Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Streamline Tubing Jack, I'll hold you to your refrain, but my price for a short piece of streamline tubing is 1 beer at Brodhead.your credit is good. Gary _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Phillips Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 6:47 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Streamline Tubing Hi Gary, Thanks a lot! I figured somebody in the Pietenpol world would help me out. In your honor I will refrain for a period of 30 days from making disparaging remarks about Corvairs. Send me your address and I'll send you a check. Send the tubing to: Jack Phillips 9916 Bonsal Crossing New Hill, NC 27562 I'll see what the postage was and add that to the $10. I really only need a little over 3" of the tubing, so if you wish, just cut that much off and send it. You might need the rest for something else someday. Thanks again! Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gboothe5 Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 7:34 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Streamline Tubing Jack, I may not have 30 ribs, but I have 14.5" of that exact piece, and it has your name written all over it! Gary Boothe From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Phillips Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:23 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Streamline Tubing While we're asking each other for short lengths of tubing (or rod, in some cases), I thought I'd see if anyone on the list has some streamline tubing that I could buy. I'm making a heated pitot tube for the RV-10 I'm building. Since I learned to build airplanes with my Pietenpol, I don't exactly fit the mold of the typical RV-10 builder. Most of them just think nothing of shelling out $500 for a new heated pitot tube. I can't afford that much money for something that I hope to never need, so I scrounged around and found a used one from a Cessna 172 on ebay for $75. I received it today and tested it (both for pitot function and heating) and found that it works, after I blew all the mud dauber nests out of it. But I need to make a mount to extend it below the surface of the wing (Van's recommends 5"). The pitot tube has a 90 degree bend with a streamlined cross section that is made to slip into a piece of streamlined tubing. I need about 3" of streamlined tubing with a wall thickness of .049", a major axis of 2.023" and a minor axis of .857". Aircraft Spruce has such tubing, but the minimum order is 1 foot, for a price of $23.00. If anybody has such a piece of tubing lying around, I'll happily pay $10 for it. I didn't even bother posting this request on the RV-10 list. They'd never understand that this is the kind of thing REAL homebuilding is all about. All they want to do is complain about the quality of Van's kits (which is superb) and whine about which type of glass cockpit electronics to buy. They already look askance at me because I bought the engine (an O-540 Lycoming) on ebay with the intentions of overhauling it myself. All the RV-10 builders I know have bought NEW IO-540's for a price of over $50,000 each. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Raleigh, NC http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution st" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ttp://forums.matronics.com =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:23 AM PST US From: V Groah Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Piet outdoors That looks wonderful. I am very impressed!! What engine are you using? Y ou are really far along. A lot of work done. Congratulations. Vic 414M V do not archive > From: gboothe5@comcast.net > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Piet outdoors > Date: Fri=2C 18 Feb 2011 17:38:11 -0800 > > > > I am proud...and impressed! Is that a Silky Terrier? > > Gary > Do not archive > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Dot son > Sent: Friday=2C February 18=2C 2011 4:14 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet outdoors > > > > I just can't help my self. We pushed it out this afternoon. Gary Boothe y ou > will be proud of me. I built the jury struts 100% from poplar.....really it > is from a tulip tree I sawed on my homemade sawmill about 25 or 30 years > ago. It looks just like poplar. > > -------- > Jerry Dotson > 59 Daniel Johnson Rd > Baker=2C FL 32531 > > Started building NX510JD July=2C 2009 > wing=2C tailfeathers done=2C fuselage rolling > using Lycoming O-235 > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331460#331460 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/jury_srtut_130.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/outdoors_1080_686.jpg > > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:42:22 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Inspired by The Other Jack I think it was Jack T. who, a few weeks ago, sent the picture of his rib cutting jig..good idea! Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, Running! Tail done, Fuselage on gear, RIBS DONE! ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:42:23 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Piet outdoors Jerry, Not grown on my property, and certainly not milled by me, but I started gluing my struts today (hickory). Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, Running! Tail done, Fuselage on gear, RIBS DONE! -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Dotson Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 4:14 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet outdoors I just can't help my self. We pushed it out this afternoon. Gary Boothe you will be proud of me. I built the jury struts 100% from poplar.....really it is from a tulip tree I sawed on my homemade sawmill about 25 or 30 years ago. It looks just like poplar. -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 wing, tailfeathers done, fuselage rolling using Lycoming O-235 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331460#331460 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/jury_srtut_130.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/outdoors_1080_686.jpg ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:07:37 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Routed Spar weight From: Kenneth Bickers >From time to time, the question of what spars to use arises. I thought it might be useful to share a bit of data on the amount of weight saved by using routed spars. For Christmas, my family ordered spar blanks from Aircraft Spruce for me -- proving yet again how lucky I am. After several weeks of anticipation, four beautiful Sitka Spruce planks arrived. Each was 1" x 5", 14' long. I deviated from the plans in two respects. One, I decided to take advantage of the extra length and opted to add 9" to each wing. So my outer wing panels, with the attached wing tip bows, will be 14' 0.5" long. This will produce a wing that is 30' 6" from wing tip to wing tip. Two, I also opted not to reduce the spar blanks to a 4.75" by 1" rectangle, but to bevel the top edge of each to match the interior space of the ribs. As a result, my front two spars are 4.75" tall on the forward face and 5" tall on the rear face. The rear two spars are 4.875" tall on the forward face and 4.75" on the aft face. The routed sections, however, ignore the extra material at the top of each spar. That is, were I to shave off the extra area, I would still have the flanges that are specified in the plans. Please keep these deviations in mind, because they will affect the specific weight savings that others might obtain. After much trepidation and construction of a set of simple jigs, I was ready to take my router to the spar blanks. To avoid sharp transitions, I used a bull nose router bit (i.e., shaped like a capital U) to make chamfered half circles at each end of the routed sections, as well as to chamfer the full straight edge that forms the upper and lower flanges. I then used a straight router bit to eat out the wood in the interior of the chamfered race track-like sections. I followed the plans in leaving the section where the strut fittings attach unrouted (18"), the 4.5" triangle-ish outboard section, and the 7" inboard section. I also left a section of about 5.5" unrouted where the jury strut fittings will attach. With that explanation, here are the data: Pre-routed Starboard Front Spar . . . 12 lbs 9.6 oz Routed Staboard Front Spar . . . 9 lbs 10.0 oz Pre-routed Port Front Spar . . . 12 lbs 13.8 oz Routed Port Front Spar . . . 9 lbs 13.6 oz Pre-routed Starboard Rear Spar . . . 12 lbs 5.4 oz. Routed Starboard Rear Spar . . . 9 lbs 6.6 oz. Pre-routed Port Rear Spar . . . 12 lbs 6.4 oz Routed Port Rear Spar . . . 9 lbs 7.4 oz For each spar, the routing saves almost exactly 3 lbs. The reduction is from approx 50 lbs of total spar weight to approx 38 lbs of total spar weight. As for the time involved, it took me about 2 hours per spar to do the routing, plus another 15 minutes or so for each one to vacuum up the mess. There was another 2 or 3 hours of sanding inivolved. I probably spent about the same total time, pondering, worrying, and jig building before I ever touched the router to the spar blanks. Cheers, Ken ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:08:28 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rolling Steel Marbles in My Left Hand From: "kevinpurtee" Gary - the completion of your ribs took more effort from me than mine! Credit where credit is due, though: nice job. (My previous congratulations were premature.) Kevin do not archive -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331568#331568 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:10:49 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Harmonic Vibrations I understand the need for jury struts, but was just wondering.Do wood struts have the same vibration problem that metal struts do? Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, Running! Tail done, Fuselage on gear, RIBS DONE! ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:25:28 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Harmonic Vibrations From: mike Hardaway U2FtZSBwcm9ibGVtLCBkaWZmZXJlbnQgZnJlcXVlbmNpZXMuCgpPbiBTYXQsIEZlYiAxOSwgMjAx MSBhdCA1OjA1IFBNLCBHYXJ5IEJvb3RoZSA8Z2Jvb3RoZTVAY29tY2FzdC5uZXQ+IHdyb3RlOgoK PiAgSSB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIHRoZSBuZWVkIGZvciBqdXJ5IHN0cnV0cywgYnV0IHdhcyBqdXN0IHdv bmRlcmluZ4VEbyB3b29kCj4gc3RydXRzIGhhdmUgdGhlIHNhbWUgdmlicmF0aW9uIHByb2JsZW0g dGhhdCBtZXRhbCBzdHJ1dHMgZG8/Cj4KPgo+Cj4gR2FyeSBCb290aGUKPiBDb29sLCBDYS4KPiBQ aWV0ZW5wb2wKPiBXVyBDb3J2YWlyIENvbnZlcnNpb24sIFJ1bm5pbmchCj4gVGFpbCBkb25lLCBG dXNlbGFnZSBvbiBnZWFyLCBSSUJTIERPTkUhCj4KPgo+Cj4gKgo+Cj4gXy09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0KPiBfLT0gICAg ICAgICAgLSBUaGUgUGlldGVucG9sLUxpc3QgRW1haWwgRm9ydW0gLQo+IF8tPSBVc2UgdGhlIE1h dHJvbmljcyBMaXN0IEZlYXR1cmVzIE5hdmlnYXRvciB0byBicm93c2UKPiBfLT0gdGhlIG1hbnkg TGlzdCB1dGlsaXRpZXMgc3VjaCBhcyBMaXN0IFVuL1N1YnNjcmlwdGlvbiwKPiBfLT0gQXJjaGl2 ZSBTZWFyY2ggJiBEb3dubG9hZCwgNy1EYXkgQnJvd3NlLCBDaGF0LCBGQVEsCj4gXy09IFBob3Rv c2hhcmUsIGFuZCBtdWNoIG11Y2ggbW9yZToKPiBfLT0KPiBfLT0gICAtLT4gaHR0cDovL3d3dy5t YXRyb25pY3MuY29tL05hdmlnYXRvcj9QaWV0ZW5wb2wtTGlzdAo+IF8tPQo+IF8tPT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09Cj4gXy09 ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgLSBNQVRST05JQ1MgV0VCIEZPUlVNUyAtCj4gXy09IFNhbWUgZ3JlYXQg Y29udGVudCBhbHNvIGF2YWlsYWJsZSB2aWEgdGhlIFdlYiBGb3J1bXMhCj4gXy09Cj4gXy09ICAg LS0+IGh0dHA6Ly9mb3J1bXMubWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbQo+IF8tPQo+IF8tPT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09Cj4gXy09ICAgICAg ICAgICAgIC0gTGlzdCBDb250cmlidXRpb24gV2ViIFNpdGUgLQo+IF8tPSAgVGhhbmsgeW91IGZv ciB5b3VyIGdlbmVyb3VzIHN1cHBvcnQhCj4gXy09ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgLU1hdHQgRHJhbGxlLCBMaXN0IEFkbWluLgo+IF8tPSAgIC0tPiBodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJv bmljcy5jb20vY29udHJpYnV0aW9uCj4gXy09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0KPiAqCj4KPgo ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:34:39 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Routed Spar weight Kenneth, thanks for the detailed report on this. It agrees pretty well with my calculations on weight savings. I used =BE=94 spars without bevelled tops and routed the rear spars only, using a bullnosed router bit as you described. By my calculations I saved 3.89 lbs by routing the rear spars from =BE=94 down to =BD=94 in the middle. Obviously, using 1=94 spars you saved even more. This is the kind of good hard data that is useful to refute arguments. Jack Phillips NX899JP =93Icarus Plummet=94 Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Bickers Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2011 7:58 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Routed Spar weight >From time to time, the question of what spars to use arises. I thought it might be useful to share a bit of data on the amount of weight saved by using routed spars. For Christmas, my family ordered spar blanks from Aircraft Spruce for me -- proving yet again how lucky I am. After several weeks of anticipation, four beautiful Sitka Spruce planks arrived. Each was 1" x 5", 14' long. I deviated from the plans in two respects. One, I decided to take advantage of the extra length and opted to add 9" to each wing. So my outer wing panels, with the attached wing tip bows, will be 14' 0.5" long. This will produce a wing that is 30' 6" from wing tip to wing tip. Two, I also opted not to reduce the spar blanks to a 4.75" by 1" rectangle, but to bevel the top edge of each to match the interior space of the ribs. As a result, my front two spars are 4.75" tall on the forward face and 5" tall on the rear face. The rear two spars are 4.875" tall on the forward face and 4.75" on the aft face. The routed sections, however, ignore the extra material at the top of each spar. That is, were I to shave off the extra area, I would still have the flanges that are specified in the plans. Please keep these deviations in mind, because they will affect the specific weight savings that others might obtain. After much trepidation and construction of a set of simple jigs, I was ready to take my router to the spar blanks. To avoid sharp transitions, I used a bull nose router bit (i.e., shaped like a capital U) to make chamfered half circles at each end of the routed sections, as well as to chamfer the full straight edge that forms the upper and lower flanges. I then used a straight router bit to eat out the wood in the interior of the chamfered race track-like sections. I followed the plans in leaving the section where the strut fittings attach unrouted (18"), the 4.5" triangle-ish outboard section, and the 7" inboard section. I also left a section of about 5.5" unrouted where the jury strut fittings will attach. With that explanation, here are the data: Pre-routed Starboard Front Spar . . . 12 lbs 9.6 oz Routed Staboard Front Spar . . . 9 lbs 10.0 oz Pre-routed Port Front Spar . . . 12 lbs 13.8 oz Routed Port Front Spar . . . 9 lbs 13.6 oz Pre-routed Starboard Rear Spar . . . 12 lbs 5.4 oz. Routed Starboard Rear Spar . . . 9 lbs 6.6 oz. Pre-routed Port Rear Spar . . . 12 lbs 6.4 oz Routed Port Rear Spar . . . 9 lbs 7.4 oz For each spar, the routing saves almost exactly 3 lbs. The reduction is from approx 50 lbs of total spar weight to approx 38 lbs of total spar weight. As for the time involved, it took me about 2 hours per spar to do the routing, plus another 15 minutes or so for each one to vacuum up the mess. There was another 2 or 3 hours of sanding inivolved. I probably spent about the same total time, pondering, worrying, and jig building before I ever touched the router to the spar blanks. Cheers, Ken ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:37:38 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Harmonic Vibrations Yes. The only real advantage wood has over metal is that wood is not subject to fatigue as metal is. But if you put the jury struts right in the center of the lift struts you can still set up devastating harmonic vibrations, where if you move the support point a few inches either way it does not allow such harmonics to develop. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Boothe Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2011 8:06 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Harmonic Vibrations I understand the need for jury struts, but was just wondering.Do wood struts have the same vibration problem that metal struts do? Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, Running! Tail done, Fuselage on gear, RIBS DONE! ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:49:40 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Routed Spar weight From: Kenneth Bickers Jack, thanks. One other way to look at this. Had I used un-routed 3/4" spars that were still beveled on top, the weight would have been just over 37.5 lbs. Mine ended up 38 lbs. The routed 1" spars are somewhat stronger than the 3/4" spars. Not a lot, but some. Cheers, Ken On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 6:31 PM, Jack Phillips wrot e: > Kenneth, thanks for the detailed report on this. It agrees pretty well > with my calculations on weight savings. I used =BE=94 spars without beve lled > tops and routed the rear spars only, using a bullnosed router bit as you > described. By my calculations I saved 3.89 lbs by routing the rear spars > from =BE=94 down to =BD=94 in the middle. Obviously, using 1=94 spars yo u saved even > more. > > > This is the kind of good hard data that is useful to refute arguments. > > > Jack Phillips > > NX899JP =93Icarus Plummet=94 > > Raleigh, NC > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Kenneth Bickers > *Sent:* Saturday, February 19, 2011 7:58 PM > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Pietenpol-List: Routed Spar weight > > > From time to time, the question of what spars to use arises. I thought i t > might be useful to share a bit of data on > > the amount of weight saved by using routed spars. > > > For Christmas, my family ordered spar blanks from Aircraft Spruce for me -- > proving yet again how lucky I am. After > > several weeks of anticipation, four beautiful Sitka Spruce planks > arrived. Each was 1" x 5", 14' long. > > > I deviated from the plans in two respects. One, I decided to take > advantage of the extra length and opted to add 9" to > > each wing. So my outer wing panels, with the attached wing tip bows, wil l > be 14' 0.5" long. This will produce > > a wing that is 30' 6" from wing tip to wing tip. Two, I also opted not t o > reduce the spar blanks to a 4.75" by 1" rectangle, > > but to bevel the top edge of each to match the interior space of the ribs .. > As a result, my front two spars are 4.75" tall > > on the forward face and 5" tall on the rear face. The rear two spars are > 4.875" tall on the forward face and 4.75" on the > > aft face. The routed sections, however, ignore the extra material at the > top of each spar. That is, were I to shave off the > > extra area, I would still have the flanges that are specified in the > plans. Please keep these deviations in mind, because > > they will affect the specific weight savings that others might obtain. > > > After much trepidation and construction of a set of simple jigs, I was > ready to take my router to the spar blanks. To avoid > > sharp transitions, I used a bull nose router bit (i.e., shaped like a > capital U) to make chamfered half circles at each > > end of the routed sections, as well as to chamfer the full straight edge > that forms the upper and lower flanges. I then > > used a straight router bit to eat out the wood in the interior of the > chamfered race track-like sections. I followed the plans > > in leaving the section where the strut fittings attach unrouted (18"), th e > 4.5" triangle-ish outboard section, and the 7" inboard > > section. I also left a section of about 5.5" unrouted where the jury str ut > fittings will attach. > > > With that explanation, here are the data: > > > Pre-routed Starboard Front Spar . . . 12 lbs 9.6 oz Routed Staboard > Front Spar . . . 9 lbs 10.0 oz > > Pre-routed Port Front Spar . . . 12 lbs 13.8 oz Routed Port > Front Spar . . . 9 lbs 13.6 oz > > Pre-routed Starboard Rear Spar . . . 12 lbs 5.4 oz. Routed Starboar d > Rear Spar . . . 9 lbs 6.6 oz. > > Pre-routed Port Rear Spar . . . 12 lbs 6.4 oz Routed Port > Rear Spar . . . 9 lbs 7.4 oz > > > For each spar, the routing saves almost exactly 3 lbs. The reduction is > from approx 50 lbs of total spar weight to > > approx 38 lbs of total spar weight. > > > As for the time involved, it took me about 2 hours per spar to do the > routing, plus another 15 minutes or so for > > each one to vacuum up the mess. There was another 2 or 3 hours of sandin g > inivolved. I probably spent about > > the same total time, pondering, worrying, and jig building before I ever > touched the router to the spar blanks. > > > Cheers, Ken > > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List* > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > * * > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:55:11 PM PST US From: Jim Boyer Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet outdoors Wing struts or wing spars Gary? Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Boothe" Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2011 4:26:19 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Piet outdoors Jerry, Not grown on my property, and certainly not milled by me, but I started gluing my struts today (hickory). Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, Running! Tail done, Fuselage on gear, RIBS DONE! -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Dotson Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 4:14 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet outdoors I just can't help my self. We pushed it out this afternoon. Gary Boothe you will be proud of me. I built the jury struts 100% from poplar.....really it is from a tulip tree I sawed on my homemade sawmill about 25 or 30 years ago. It looks just like poplar. -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 wing, tailfeathers done, fuselage rolling using Lycoming O-235 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331460#331460 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/jury_srtut_130.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/outdoors_1080_686.jpg ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:14:34 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rolling Steel Marbles in My Left Hand ...as was my previous announcement of completion! It feels great to be done, after being embarrassed, disappointed and motivated to finish those last two! Gary Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kevinpurtee Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2011 5:05 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rolling Steel Marbles in My Left Hand Gary - the completion of your ribs took more effort from me than mine! Credit where credit is due, though: nice job. (My previous congratulations were premature.) Kevin do not archive -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331568#331568 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:32:44 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Inspired by The Other Jack From: Jack Not Jack T, I try to stay away from 1.8meg files. Nice pic though... Jack T DSM Jack Textor Sent from my iPhone On Feb 19, 2011, at 6:28 PM, "Gary Boothe" wrote: > I think it was Jack T. who, a few weeks ago, sent the picture of his rib c utting jig.good idea! > > > > Gary Boothe > Cool, Ca. > Pietenpol > WW Corvair Conversion, Running! > Tail done, Fuselage on gear, RIBS DONE! > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:58 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Streamline Tubing From: "Ken_P" Yes Gary, I feel I must verify Jack's integrity. He has sworn to not disparage Covair engines for another 28 days and counting and he's done an admirable job so far even though I tried to draw him out today (he's undoubtedly a better man than I). However, he hasn't sworn off declaring the CH750 as "Uglier than the box a sonex was delivered in" and I fully expect to hear about that. And when he finds himself in Australia I hope he will look me up and teach me how to fly that spam can. Back to lurking... 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