Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Tue 03/01/11


Total Messages Posted: 36



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 03:37 AM - Re: Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea? (helspersew@aol.com)
     2. 03:49 AM - Re: Last WWI US Vet has passed (helspersew@aol.com)
     3. 07:41 AM - Re: weekend (Michael Perez)
     4. 07:43 AM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Michael Perez)
     5. 09:26 AM - Re: Last WWI US Vet has passed (Charles Campbell)
     6. 09:50 AM - Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Bill Church)
     7. 10:05 AM - Don't use Carbon Fiber (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG FORSCOM)
     8. 10:20 AM - Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea? (DOMIT)
     9. 10:22 AM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Michael Perez)
    10. 10:22 AM - Re: N8031 (Dan Yocum)
    11. 10:23 AM - Re: Seeking Dallas, TX Pietenpol member (DOMIT)
    12. 10:38 AM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP])
    13. 10:44 AM - Re: N8031 (Bill Church)
    14. 11:11 AM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Michael Perez)
    15. 11:36 AM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Scott Knowlton)
    16. 12:39 PM - Oscar penned the Firewall Forward of the latest Sport Av (Ryan Mueller)
    17. 12:52 PM - Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Billy McCaskill)
    18. 01:44 PM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Michael Perez)
    19. 02:06 PM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP])
    20. 02:33 PM - Re: Re: Slow list day.........Bernerd, and his ideas (helspersew@aol.com)
    21. 03:05 PM - Re: Re: Slow list day.........Bernerd, and his ideas (Rick Holland)
    22. 04:36 PM - Re: HELP (Gene Rambo)
    23. 05:35 PM - Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea? (Earnest Bunbury)
    24. 05:35 PM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Michael Perez)
    25. 05:42 PM - Re: Oscar penned the Firewall Forward of the latest Sport Av (Jack)
    26. 05:48 PM - Re: Re: Slow list day.........Bernerd, and his ideas (Earnest Bunbury)
    27. 06:33 PM - Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Bill Church)
    28. 06:40 PM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Ryan Mueller)
    29. 07:08 PM - what to use and what to fly with comfortably--an ongoing discussion  (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP])
    30. 07:10 PM - Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea? (Brett Phillips)
    31. 07:34 PM - Re: Don't use Carbon Fiber (Doug Dever)
    32. 08:25 PM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Jack Phillips)
    33. 08:26 PM - you make your choices---you take your chances (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP])
    34. 11:03 PM - Official Pietenpol-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
    35. 11:05 PM - Official Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
    36. 11:41 PM - Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Billy McCaskill)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 03:37:57 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea?
    From: helspersew@aol.com
    Hi Jeff, I hope you are right about the current draw. Maybe if it proves to discharg e during flight, I can use it as a back-up like you said, only for T-off an d landing, or other mag failure. Yes the spark advance is wired in place. I already have the Slick mag with the impulse for starting purposes. Bernard didn't used this set-up (or maybe, I better check the "lost" BHP Papers to make sure) but at least it is unique and might be a topic of curiosity at Brodhead. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. (I'm back) PS Boy wouldn't that be something if I get better performance than the mag? .....nawwww -----Original Message----- From: bender <jfaith@solairusaviation.com> Sent: Mon, Feb 28, 2011 8:57 am Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea? > Hey Dan ... do you have the FSI ignition parts in there ?? hey say it will work on 6-16 volts.. i can't imagine the current draw being ery high myself but i see this as a good backup... aybe a good primary ignition with more of a power source.. wind or engine enerator.. noticed the spark advance is wired in place...i can see another lever in t he ockpit.... folks today don't get it leave the keys in my 30 AA all the time.. only old guys know how to start t...fuel on... retard spark...open throttle..choke..step on the right utton...fun to drive but you gotta know how jeff ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332299#332299 ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/aa_195.jpg -======================== -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -========================


    Message 2


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    Time: 03:49:12 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Last WWI US Vet has passed
    From: helspersew@aol.com
    Charles, It is not widely known, But GHW Bush was NOT the youngest WWII naval aviato r. It is in fact my neighbor (still going strong) Capt. Chuck Downey of Pop lar Grove, IL. http://www.meyersaircraftowners.org/index.php?option=com_c ontent&view=article&id=16%3Aa-toast-to-capt-chuck-s-downey&catid=10%3 Ahistorical-information&Itemid=12&showall=1 Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL.


    Message 3


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    Time: 07:41:11 AM PST US
    From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: weekend
    No carbon fiber...that would not be to plans. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com Do Not Archive --- On Mon, 2/28/11, Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com> wrote: From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: weekend No carbon fiber? Geez..... do not archive On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 4:57 PM, Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net> wrote: Cap strip and plywood is what I did. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com


    Message 4


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    Time: 07:43:03 AM PST US
    From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
    I know Bill. I am pretty sure the bar can handle the rudder stresses. Michael Perez =0AKaretaker Aero =0Awww.karetakeraero.com --- On Mon, 2/28/11, Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca> wrote: From: Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls > One quick comment to Michael regarding the rudder bar. You write that you used "standard tubing - .035" wall SS". Just be aware that stainless steel tubing typically has only half the Yield Strength of 4130 - and in this case, the plans specifically mention to use chro-moly tubing for the rudder bar. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332335#332335 le, List Admin.


    Message 5


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    Time: 09:26:58 AM PST US
    From: "Charles Campbell" <cncampbell@windstream.net>
    Subject: Re: Last WWI US Vet has passed
    Yeah, someone else told me about Mr. Downey. Hadn't heard of him before. Nice writeup even though there are some mistakes. Oh well, maybe his memory is getting a little fuzzy -- like mine! ----- Original Message ----- From: helspersew@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 6:46 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Last WWI US Vet has passed Charles, It is not widely known, But GHW Bush was NOT the youngest WWII naval aviator. It is in fact my neighbor (still going strong) Capt. Chuck Downey of Poplar Grove, IL. http://www.meyersaircraftowners.org/index.php?option=com_content&view= article&id=16%3Aa-toast-to-capt-chuck-s-downey&catid=10%3Ahistorical- information&Itemid=12&showall=1 Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL.


    Message 6


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    Time: 09:50:05 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
    From: "Bill Church" <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
    Actually, the stresses induced on the rudder bar from the rudder are almost inconsequential. Since the ends of the rudder bar are only connected to the rudder by means of cables (if built to the plans), then only one end of the rudder bar (the end that is pulling on the rudder) can be loaded at a time (you can't push a rope). What you need to be aware of is the potential for the pilot to bend the rudder bar, by inadvertently pushing with both feet. The pilot will undoubtedly have both feet pressing against the rudder bar at all times, and a bit of uncoordinated footwork, or panic can result in an excessive amount of pushing on both sides of the rudder bar at the same time. Probably what you should do is take a scrap piece of the tubing you're using, the same length as the rudder bar, and duplicate the center pivot arrangement, and secure this bar to something solid. Then position yourself in a well secured seat located at the proper distance from the rudder bar, and see how difficult it is to bend the sample rudder bar. You may be surprised how little force it takes to bend the tube. There are very few metal parts in the plans that actually call for cro-moly steel, but the rudder bar is one. Methinks it is specified that way for a reason. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332385#332385


    Message 7


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    Time: 10:05:37 AM PST US
    From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG FORSCOM" <steven.d.dortch@us.army.mil>
    Subject: Don't use Carbon Fiber
    speaking of Carbon fiber. On a Beechcraft list I follow as well (I own a 1948 forked tail Dr Killer) the following was posted. Dave Rogers is a pretty smart cracker. He has forgotten more than I will ever know about aerodynamics. Below he describes why you don't want to mix carbon fiber and metal! Steve D G'day Fred, You don't want to do that. Aside from the fact that composite structures are not necessarily lighter or stronger than aluminum structures, a carbon fiber structure on our aluminum aircraft would cause serious galvanic corrosion problems. Go here to see what I mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_series Carbon (graphite) is at one end of the galvanic activity (nobility) table and aluminum is nearly at the other end. Any metal in contact with the actual carbon fibers is subject to galvanic corrosion. The degree of electrical activity which leads to corrosion is proportional to the difference in "nobility" of the materials, i.e., the difference in position in the table. The difference in "nobility" between carbon and aluminum is almost as large as you can get. Consequently, you do not want to put anything made of carbon fiber in contact with a metal part of a Bonanza. You especially do not want to put anything made of carbon fiber in contact with magnesium which is at that absolute other end of the "nobility" table from carbon (graphite). Furthermore, there are serious mechanical issues with attaching composite structures to more conventional metal structures. Here, think about the Airbus rudder accident at JFK a few years ago. Not a good idea, Dave Rogers E33A for sale Just like the Piet discussions wandering, this started out with a question about our Magnesium Ruddervators and wandered to this. Blue Skies, Steve D ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: weekend > No carbon fiber...that would not be to plans. > > Michael Perez > > Karetaker Aero > > www.karetakeraero.com > > Do Not Archive > > --- On Mon, 2/28/11, Ryan Mueller < wrote: > > From: Ryan Mueller < > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: weekend > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Date: Monday, February 28, 2011, 6:05 PM > > No carbon fiber? Geez..... > do not archive > > On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 4:57 PM, Michael Perez < wrote: > > Cap strip and plywood is what I did. > > > Michael Perez > Karetaker Aero > www.karetakeraero.com > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 8


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    Time: 10:20:05 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea?
    From: "DOMIT" <rx7_ragtop@yahoo.com>
    You know, "what would Bernard say" always comes up. He used the materials and methods commonly available to him... converted 2 different auto engines when they were relatively new to the market... He was an innovator. I don't think he would exactly be one to frown on innovation... -------- Brad &quot;DOMIT&quot; Smith First rule of ground school: This is the ground... don't hit it going fast. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332389#332389


    Message 9


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    Time: 10:22:15 AM PST US
    From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
    I understand Bill and I appreciate your input. Michael Perez =0AKaretaker Aero =0Awww.karetakeraero.com --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca> wrote: From: Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls > Actually, the stresses induced on the rudder bar from the rudder are almost inconsequential. Since the ends of the rudder bar are only connected to th e rudder by means of cables (if built to the plans), then only one end of t he rudder bar (the end that is pulling on the rudder) can be loaded at a ti me (you can't push a rope). What you need to be aware of is the potential for the pilot to bend the rud der bar, by inadvertently pushing with both feet. The pilot will undoubtedl y have both feet pressing against the rudder bar at all times, and a bit of uncoordinated footwork, or panic can result in an excessive amount of push ing on both sides of the rudder bar at the same time. Probably what you should do is take a scrap piece of the tubing you're usin g, the same length as the rudder bar, and duplicate the center pivot arrang ement, and secure this bar to something solid. Then position yourself in a well secured seat located at the proper distance from the rudder bar, and s ee how difficult it is to bend the sample rudder bar. You may be surprised how little force it takes to bend the tube. There are very few metal parts in the plans that actually call for cro-moly steel, but the rudder bar is one. Methinks it is specified that way for a reason. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332385#332385 le, List Admin.


    Message 10


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    Time: 10:22:17 AM PST US
    From: Dan Yocum <yocum@fnal.gov>
    Subject: Re: N8031
    Tres put about 180 tach hours on it during the ~18mo that he owned it - he and his friends flew the snot out of 8031! I only put about 55 wallclock hours on her last year - about 6.5 of those at Brodhead. :-) Dan On 02/28/2011 12:23 PM, Jack wrote: > Who on the list owns this Piet? Holy cow does it get flown, I've enjoyed the > pictures here https://picasaweb.google.com/TresClements > Thanks > Jack > DSM > > Do not archive -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."


    Message 11


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    Time: 10:23:10 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Seeking Dallas, TX Pietenpol member
    From: "DOMIT" <rx7_ragtop@yahoo.com>
    What KIND of assistance? I don't have a Piet... I'm in Fort Worth (think of it as one big mess all blurred together, Dallas and Fort Worth and... oh... a dozen plus smaller cities. -------- Brad &quot;DOMIT&quot; Smith First rule of ground school: This is the ground... don't hit it going fast. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332390#332390


    Message 12


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    Time: 10:38:31 AM PST US
    From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
    Subject: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
    This is one area where I would not cut corners and would most certainly use the 4130 as the rudder bar is THE most manipulated control device on the entire airplane and is constantly being used both in flight a nd on the ground. Stainless will work harden, fatigue and crack with repeated excessive force on both sides of the rudder bar (which all Pietenpol pilots apply during t ight turns on the ground and in panic, surge situations during a very gusty land ing in a crosswind or to prevent a ground loop. The proper way to fly any airplane (especially a taildragger) is to constan tly apply pressure to BOTH rudders to provide positive feedback to both fee t rather than push one and release the other like you would do in shifting an manual transmission car. I would be more comfortable making the rudder bar out of white ash or some other hardwood (like the WWI airplanes and Curtiss Jenny had) rather than make it out of stainless tubing. Mike C.


    Message 13


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    Time: 10:44:48 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: N8031
    From: "Bill Church" <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
    Dan wrote: > he and his friends flew the snot out of 8031! Why did 8031 have snot in it? That's gross. BC Do NOT Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332395#332395


    Message 14


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    Time: 11:11:22 AM PST US
    From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
    I feel comfortable with my rudder bar set up. Michael Perez =0AKaretaker Aero =0Awww.karetakeraero.com --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP] <michae l.d.cuy@nasa.gov> wrote: From: Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP] <michael.d.cuy@nasa.g ov> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls This is one area where I would not cut corners and would most certainly use the 4130 as the rudder bar is THE most manipulated controldevice on the en tire airplane and is constantly being used both in flight and on the ground . -Stainless will work harden, fatigue and crack with repeated excessive force on both sides of the rudder bar (which all Pietenpol pilots apply du ring tightturns on the ground and in panic, surge situations during a very gusty landing in a crosswind or to prevent a ground loop. -The proper wa y to fly any airplane (especially a taildragger) is to constantly apply pre ssure to BOTH rudders to provide positive feedback to both feetrather than push one and release the other like you would do in shifting an manual tran smission car. -I would be more comfortable making the rudder bar out of white ash or some other hardwood (like the WWI airplanes and Curtiss Jenny had) ratherthan make it out of stainless tubing.--- -Mike C. - =0A


    Message 15


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    Time: 11:36:44 AM PST US
    From: "Scott Knowlton " <flyingscott_k@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
    Ditto to what Bill said but make sure to excite your adrenal glands whilst testing! Scott Knowlton -----Original Message----- From: Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls Actually, the stresses induced on the rudder bar from the rudder are almost inconsequential. Since the ends of the rudder bar are only connected to the rudder by means of cables (if built to the plans), then only one end of the rudder bar (the end that is pulling on the rudder) can be loaded at a time (you can't push a rope). What you need to be aware of is the potential for the pilot to bend the rudder bar, by inadvertently pushing with both feet. The pilot will undoubtedly have both feet pressing against the rudder bar at all times, and a bit of uncoordinated footwork, or panic can result in an excessive amount of pushing on both sides of the rudder bar at the same time. Probably what you should do is take a scrap piece of the tubing you're using, the same length as the rudder bar, and duplicate the center pivot arrangement, and secure this bar to something solid. Then position yourself in a well secured seat located at the proper distance from the rudder bar, and see how difficult it is to bend the sample rudder bar. You may be surprised how little force it takes to bend the tube. There are very few metal parts in the plans that actually call for cro-moly steel, but the rudder bar is one. Methinks it is specified that way for a reason. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332385#332385


    Message 16


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    Time: 12:39:59 PM PST US
    Subject: Oscar penned the Firewall Forward of the latest Sport
    Av
    From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com>
    Forwarded from the CorvAircraft list.... Oscar does a nice write-up of an overview of the small Continentals. Good job Oscar! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Pat Panzera <editor.contactmagazine@gmail.com> Subject: CorvAircraft> Oscar Zuniga Squirrel Net <sqrlnet@yahoogroups.com> The "Firewall Forward" section of the newest Sport Aviation was authored by our very own Oscar Zuniga. http://www.sportaviationonline.org/sportaviation/201103#pg104


    Message 17


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    Time: 12:52:05 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
    From: "Billy McCaskill" <billmz@cox.net>
    Michael, do you intend to carry passengers in your plane when it's done? While YOU might be comfortable with your rudder bar setup, how comfortable will your screaming passenger be when your rudder bar fails in flight (or while landing/taxiing) and you have no rudder control? Is this something that you REALLY want to cut corners on? But, it is your plane and you may build it as you see fit... personally, I'll be adhering strictly to what's called out on the plans for critical control assemblies such as this. Just my $.02 -------- Billy McCaskill Urbana, IL tail section almost done, starting on ribs soon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332407#332407


    Message 18


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    Time: 01:44:09 PM PST US
    From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
    I appreciate the concerns, but I question what exactly will go wrong with S.S.? Am I being told that some person may get in the plane and bend the bar in a double footed panic? I do not understand what will work harden...the length of sleeve through the bar where is comes in contact with the bolt? (Greased) Maybe the flat ends of the bar where it comes in contact with the clevis pins? (Double wall thickness here) As noted by one reader, the rudder stress on the bar is relatively small, so how much force will be on those clevis pins? ( I am not saying that is true, it is just what someone said earlier.)Maybe the area where the sleeve through the bar rides on top of the "A" frame support? (Washer) How much movement/stress needs to be applied to even start the work hardening process? No one need get in the plane that does not want to...nor whom is not invited. I'm keeping the bar, anyone who wants to debate it further, feel free to contact me off list...no need taking up space and cluttering up everyones email boxes. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Billy McCaskill <billmz@cox.net> wrote: > From: Billy McCaskill <billmz@cox.net> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 3:49 PM > --> Pietenpol-List message posted > by: "Billy McCaskill" <billmz@cox.net> > > Michael, do you intend to carry passengers in your plane > when it's done? While YOU might be comfortable with > your rudder bar setup, how comfortable will your screaming > passenger be when your rudder bar fails in flight (or while > landing/taxiing) and you have no rudder control? Is > this something that you REALLY want to cut corners on? > But, it is your plane and you may build it as you see > fit... personally, I'll be adhering strictly to what's > called out on the plans for critical control assemblies such > as this. Just my $.02 > > -------- > Billy McCaskill > Urbana, IL > tail section almost done, starting on ribs soon > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332407#332407 > > > > > > > > Email Forum - > FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > > >


    Message 19


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    Time: 02:06:01 PM PST US
    From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
    Subject: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
    I think Billy made a great point in addition to Bill Church is that you're cheaping out on something that is a critical flight control that 'may' work fine for years and years but then again may not. Remember Mike....my spreader bars were made of stainless and last summer the one ear of my front rudder bar snapped off and dragged under the airplane after landing at a nearby fly-in. Scary ? You bet but thankfully there are TWO spreader bars and the other one held up to get me home safely. In the Pietenpol you only have one rudder bar so you're probably right---it will be fine and I'm glad you are confident that it will be okay but in the grand scheme of things it isn't worth taking a chance when for a few bucks you could have aircraft grade 4130 in there. I'd hate to be turning base to final with my wife or loved one in the front seat and have something like my rudder control fail 80 feet over the tall trees with no chance of recovery and a nice tank of fuel ready to split and catch fire as it flows over those hot exhaust pipes.... I guess that's why we are required to display a placard in full view of the passenger which says that "this airplane is amateur built and does not comply with the same standards that factory built airplanes are required to comply with." (paraphrased) Mike C.


    Message 20


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    Time: 02:33:45 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Slow list day.........Bernerd, and his ideas
    From: helspersew@aol.com
    I think some of the reason many of us choose this design, is a longing for simpler times, and the ability to maybe travel back in history and stay the re for a few precious moments. We fantasize about how it must have been, an d (mistaking) use the "green grass" theory to imagine that it was a better place. We define in our minds the things that were going on, to a definite day or year, and don't want to inconvenience ourselves to recognize that ti me never stands still............ Please leave me alone in my fantasies!!! I want to stay here!!! Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. -----Original Message----- From: DOMIT <rx7_ragtop@yahoo.com> Sent: Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:20 pm Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea? You know, "what would Bernard say" always comes up. He used the materials and methods commonly available to him... converted 2 ifferent auto engines when they were relatively new to the market... He was an innovator. I don't think he would exactly be one to frown on nnovation... -------- rad &quot;DOMIT&quot; Smith First rule of ground school: This is the ground... don't hit it going fast . ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332389#332389 -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -========================


    Message 21


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    Time: 03:05:08 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Slow list day.........Bernerd, and his ideas
    From: Rick Holland <at7000ft@gmail.com>
    Until you have a "Viagra Moment" and then realize maybe some of that new-fangled technology taint so bad after all. On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 3:31 PM, <helspersew@aol.com> wrote: > I think some of the reason many of us choose this design, is a longing for > simpler times, and the ability to maybe travel back in history and stay > there for a few precious moments. We fantasize about how it must have been, > and (mistaking) use the "green grass" theory to imagine that it was a better > place. We define in our minds the things that were going on, to a definite > day or year, and don't want to inconvenience ourselves to recognize that > time never stands still............ Please leave me alone in my fantasies!!! > I want to stay here!!! > > Dan Helsper > Poplar Grove, IL. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: DOMIT <rx7_ragtop@yahoo.com> > To: pietenpol-list <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:20 pm > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea? > > > You know, "what would Bernard say" always comes up. > > He used the materials and methods commonly available to him... converted 2 > different auto engines when they were relatively new to the market... > > He was an innovator. I don't think he would exactly be one to frown on > innovation... > > -------- > Brad &quot;DOMIT&quot; Smith > > First rule of ground school: This is the ground... don't hit it going fast. > > > Read this topic online here: > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332389#332389 > > > " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > p://forums.matronics.com > blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > * > > * > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "A Foolish Consistency is the Hobgoblin of Little Minds"


    Message 22


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    Time: 04:36:41 PM PST US
    From: Gene Rambo <generambo@msn.com>
    Subject: HELP
    Dick=2C I have no need for it=2C so come get it and do with it what you lik e. Give me plenty of heads up on the date you will be passing through=2C a nd be a little flexible=2C so I can make sure I am there. From: horzpool@goldengate.net Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: HELP Gene I have had a number of e mails back and forth with guys from the Wood Shop about which fuselage and which engine we are going to use. What it comes t o is if you are comfortable with us putting the Model A with a Long fuselag e and maybe having it seperated later I would still love to have it. How ever if you arent comfortable with it being sold seperatly=2C Please say so at this point and we will all understand. I definrtly be willing to drive to D.C. to pick it up on the way to SNF. Please let me know. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gene Rambo Sent: Monday=2C February 28=2C 2011 7:52 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: HELP Basically Washington DC. Aircraft is at Culpeper=2C Virginia about 60 mile s southwest of city. Gene From: horzpool@goldengate.net Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: HELP Hey again Gene I don't remember where you are. I know it's in the east. I can do that th ough. I am going early about the 17th of March. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Gene Rambo Sent: Sunday=2C February 27=2C 2011 6:45 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: HELP dont know if I am going=2C but I won't be able to bring down if I do. If y ou are going through this area=2C pick up would be great=2C we can pick aro und and see if there is anything else I have extra. If not in this area=2C I could ship to you. Gene do not archive From: horzpool@goldengate.net Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: HELP Thats great Gene. For that=2C are you going to SNF or I can also pick up. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Gene Rambo Sent: Saturday=2C February 26=2C 2011 8:42 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: HELP Dick=2C I have a Model A engine mount and radiator mount that came off of J ack McCarthy's Piet when he converted. I would be happy to donate these to the cause. Gene Rambo From: horzpool@goldengate.net Subject: Pietenpol-List: HELP This year at Sun n Fun in the Wood Shop we are going to build a Pietenpol F uselage and tail section. We are then going to donate what we build to Bro dhead airport to be auctioned or sold at the Pietenpol reunion this summer =2C for the concrete floor at the new visitors center. Dave Aldrich is goi ng to contribute the wood and I am working on Wicks to contribute te plywoo d. What we still need are steel fittings=2C ( bell crank=2C torque tube =2C tail brackets and rudder assy bar also the wing fittings). Is there an yone out there that can make a set for us? If you can=2C please contact me off list? I know this is short notice and we cant pay for them but I appr eciate what ever you all can do. Of couse if you can contribute anything e lse we can use anything (engine mount=2C wing struts=2C fuel tank=2C tail w heel or? ) I"m sure there a lot of things around the hangar floor you've been meaning to sell or use someplace that would be perfect for our plane. Dick N horzpool@goldengate.net st" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ttp://forums.matronics.com =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c st" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ttp://forums.matronics.com =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c st" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ttp://forums.matronics.com =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c


    Message 23


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    Time: 05:35:08 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea?
    From: Earnest Bunbury <ebunburyesq@gmail.com>
    I don't know the answer, but there are few things that occur to me. A points ignition system will draw about 3 amps/hour (I don't know what your electronic module draws). A 12V battery that weighs 4-5 lbs (as per your example) is probably good for 3-4 amp hours (Ah), so with no charging system you probably have about an hour of flight time available through that ignition system. A 5 watt solar battery charger (it's the larger one, about 12"x12", not the skinny one you put on your car dashboard) is going to put out about 0.3 amps in direct sunlight, max. In theory, if you had ten of those on your wing or top of fuselage, etc., then maybe it would be enough juice to keep you flying on your secondary ignition. They do sell flexible skin solar panels now, so this may not be too crazy...if you have the money. Another solution, though, is to treat your electronic module truly as a secondary ignition system, only to be used if your primary ignition failed. In that case, you'd have about an hour of flying available just running on your little battery. If that's too short, return the battery to ACS and buy a 12V 8 Ah battery (available all over the place) that weigh a little over 8 lbs. Now you should have well over 2 h of flying available to get down safely somewhere. Heck, I can't remember the last time I flew my Piet more than 2 h in one flight. To keep the battery charged while your not flying, just use one of those 5W chargers. I use one for the Piet's battery and it easily keeps it topped up. HTH, Jeff On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 6:08 PM, <helspersew@aol.com> wrote: > Hi Pieters, > > I have been working diligently (and slowly) on rebuilding my "A" since the > mishap last Sept. when my timing gear disintegrated. I decided to continue > to use my 8-plug head, powered by one crank-driven mag, and a hybrid > electronic ignition/battery ignition system. I bought a 4.4 lb. battery from > ACS, which will energize the coil (looks like standard Model A coil) via a > small electronic ignition module. I am imagining a small solar panel mounted > on the fuel tank cover, to charge the battery. > > OK let the flames begin. (it's OK because I used Fiberfrax) And no smart > ass remarks like "What would Bernerd say, Dan?" > > Dan Helsper > Puryear TN., (until tomorrow only) >


    Message 24


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    Time: 05:35:10 PM PST US
    From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
    ..." 'may' work fine for- years and years but then again may not." That i s true for any part of any plane...your spreader bar as an example. - Comparing spreader bars to rudder bars is not a good comparison. Spreader b ars are under stress all the time...pushing back on the- tension from the -four 1/8" L.G. cables. The rudder bar is only under stress while someone is in the pilot seat.- How about those forces? Four 1/8" cables trying t o compress the spreader bars, (how tight are those?)compared to...I don't k now... two heavy feet-on the rudder bar? Then there are the forces on the spreaders when actually making a landing...and I would venture a guess, a few HARD landings. I just don't see a comparison here. Different regions of the plane, way different forces. - You used SS tube. You smashed the ends flat. (Induced stress, maybe cold wo rked as well.) Then you bent those smashed ends. ( More stress) Curious...Y ou know when you smash the ends, those really, really tight bends that allo w the two sides of the tube to come together, aren't those bends-IN LINE with the grain? At some point, you put a 1/4" hole in that smashed, bent en d as well and yet got 13 years out of it!- What did you replace your spre ader bars with? I believe you said you used- a heavier wall S.S. tube...y es? I believe you also said that if you have to replace them every 13 years or so, that's cool. - Your story about the broken bar, loved one in the plane, tall trees, fuel, hot exhaust, etc. is entertaining but nothing more then a "what if."-- Your spreader bar COULD have let go at altitude, smashing through the winds hield of a school bus full of kids on the high way, killing the driver, the bus crosses over to in on-coming traffic, smashing another school bus head on, killing everyone in both buses, plus the surrounding vehicles that cou ld not get out of the way in time. Then as you make an unexpected hard land ing, your gear folds on one side, the wing tip drags... then starts the car twheel... you get my drift. - I believe that the 3/16" clevis pins are NOT going to pull through the smas hed ends of the now- .065" wall stainless. I would also bet that there wo n't be enough stress to have that 5/16" bolt at the pivot pull through the entire length of the sleeve and .035" wall tube. (3/4" tube) I guess it is possible that the bar could bend if I were to freak out and press to hard o n both ends.- I guess that is something to be aware of...no more then bei ng aware to make sure the fuel cap is on right. - "...cheaping out"... Saving a few bucks is not the point. Not sure why ever y time a change is made people assume it is money related.- - You are correct about the placard...that says it all. - Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com


    Message 25


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    Time: 05:42:50 PM PST US
    From: "Jack" <jack@textors.com>
    Subject: Oscar penned the Firewall Forward of the latest Sport
    Av Fantastic article! Oscar I have to get your autograph when we meet! Jack Jack DSM Do not archive _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ryan Mueller Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 2:33 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Oscar penned the Firewall Forward of the latest Sport Av Forwarded from the CorvAircraft list.... Oscar does a nice write-up of an overview of the small Continentals. Good job Oscar! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Pat Panzera <editor.contactmagazine@gmail.com> Subject: CorvAircraft> Oscar Zuniga Squirrel Net <sqrlnet@yahoogroups.com> The "Firewall Forward" section of the newest Sport Aviation was authored by our very own Oscar Zuniga. http://www.sportaviationonline.org/sportaviation/201103#pg104


    Message 26


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    Time: 05:48:01 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Slow list day.........Bernerd, and his ideas
    From: Earnest Bunbury <ebunburyesq@gmail.com>
    And such longing for simpler times goes all the way back to at least Roman times, where it was documents in the writings of several bigwigs calling for a return to ... simpler times! As Casey Stengel would say "You could look it up!" Do not archive On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 6:02 PM, Rick Holland <at7000ft@gmail.com> wrote: > Until you have a "Viagra Moment" and then realize maybe some of that > new-fangled technology taint so bad after all. > > > On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 3:31 PM, <helspersew@aol.com> wrote: > >> I think some of the reason many of us choose this design, is a longing for >> simpler times, and the ability to maybe travel back in history and stay >> there for a few precious moments. We fantasize about how it must have been, >> and (mistaking) use the "green grass" theory to imagine that it was a better >> place. We define in our minds the things that were going on, to a definite >> day or year, and don't want to inconvenience ourselves to recognize that >> time never stands still............ Please leave me alone in my fantasies!!! >> I want to stay here!!! >> >> Dan Helsper >> Poplar Grove, IL. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: DOMIT <rx7_ragtop@yahoo.com> >> To: pietenpol-list <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> >> Sent: Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:20 pm >> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea? >> >> >> You know, "what would Bernard say" always comes up. >> >> He used the materials and methods commonly available to him... converted 2 >> different auto engines when they were relatively new to the market... >> >> He was an innovator. I don't think he would exactly be one to frown on >> innovation... >> >> -------- >> Brad &quot;DOMIT&quot; Smith >> >> First rule of ground school: This is the ground... don't hit it going fast. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332389#332389 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> p://forums.matronics.com >> blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> >> >> * >> >> >> " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> * >> >> > > > -- > Rick Holland > Castle Rock, Colorado > > "A Foolish Consistency is the Hobgoblin of Little Minds" > > * > > * > >


    Message 27


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    Time: 06:33:28 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
    From: "Bill Church" <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
    Hoo-boy, what a response. Michael (as opposed to Mike), your argument is way off base. The spreader bars are NOT under a great deal of stress. The cross brace cables should only have enough tension in them to take up the slack. And in the straight axle gear, the axle essentially floats above the gear, attached by bungees. The point is that the straight axle doesn't impose side loads like the split gear would, therefore, even in a rough landing, there will not be extreme forces transmitted to the spreader bars. Nonetheless, as Mike related, his stainless steel spreaders did fail. The rudder bar, however CAN and WILL be exposed to considerable forces exerted by the pilot. Have you ever had to stop a vehicle suddenly, and find yourself pressing the brake pedal with all your strength? Pressing the pedal harder after the brakes have locked will do no good, yet that is what we do, as humans. In a moment of panic, the rudder bar will very likely be exposed to forces far greater than it should see under "normal" conditions. There are some metal parts on the Pietenpol that can safely be replaced by stainless steel, but unless the wall thickness and/or O.D. is increased appropriately, the rudder bar isn't one. As I pointed out earlier, this is one of the few items that specifically call for cro-moly. If the plans had called for 1020 steel, then st.st. would provide a similar strength, but compared to 4130, st.st. is only half as strong. I realize that you are building YOUR plane, and doing it the way YOU want, and that's your prerogative. The only reason I'm bothering to respond is for the benefit of other builders out there who might be misled by your latest post. I've said my bit, and I'll now bow out of this discussion. Feel free to build as you please. We're only trying to give you a hand, but if you don't want to listen, that's your choice. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332438#332438


    Message 28


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    Time: 06:40:32 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
    From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com>
    I don't think they assume it's because you're cheap....I think they assume it's because you have a preternatural obsession with being the snowflakiest snowflake on the block... :) do not archive On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 7:26 PM, Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>wrote: > "...cheaping out"... Saving a few bucks is not the point. Not sure why > every time a change is made people assume it is money related. > > You are correct about the placard...that says it all. > > > Michael Perez > Karetaker Aero > www.karetakeraero.com > > * > > > * > >


    Message 29


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    Time: 07:08:21 PM PST US
    From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
    Subject: what to use and what to fly with comfortably--an ongoing
    discussion There have been many accounts by very highly educated people of why or why not we might prefer to use various metals and aircraft grade (which are READILY available) hardware or not on a plans-built homebuilt design but I herewith withdraw my desire to test fly the gorgeously-built airplane by Michael Perez. I think if YOU feel comfortable with all the changes you have made in the airplane and bill of materials that you in fact should be the test pilot and I will be there at Columbia Airport cheering you on and being one of the very first to congratulate you on your first test flight but will take no part in flying off the test time nor ever get into your airplane for any subsequent rides or flights thereafter. The plans built airplane is to the utmost the MOST experimental plane in the air today in the United States of America and thank GOD we don't have to go thru the rigors of the PFA or the mess that the other countries prescribe they go thru just to change a nut or bolt here and there. Happy flying to all and to all a Good Night ! Mike C. Ohio


    Message 30


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    Time: 07:10:28 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea?
    From: "Brett Phillips" <bphillip@shentel.net>
    Dan: Would you be interested in selling your side mounted magneto setup? I might be interested if it is available. I've followed your troubles on the list, and I think the gear driven mag could be made to be very reliable with careful setup of gear mesh. I would be concerned that a standby ignition system that is turned off most of the time would suffer from fouled plugs. Brett Phillips Strasburg, VA NX311GP Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332443#332443


    Message 31


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    Time: 07:34:52 PM PST US
    From: Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Don't use Carbon Fiber
    Not to mention the huge diference in the coefficient of thermal expansion. Mow=2C carbon fiber and wood... Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio > From: steven.d.dortch@us.army.mil > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Date: Tue=2C 1 Mar 2011 21:03:18 +0300 > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Don't use Carbon Fiber > OM" <steven.d.dortch@us.army.mil> > > speaking of Carbon fiber. On a Beechcraft list I follow as well (I own a 1948 forked tail Dr Killer) the following was posted. Dave Rogers is a pret ty smart cracker. He has forgotten more than I will ever know about aerodyn amics. Below he describes why you don't want to mix carbon fiber and metal! > Steve D > > G'day Fred=2C > > You don't want to do that. > > Aside from the fact that composite structures are not necessarily > lighter or stronger than aluminum structures=2C a carbon fiber structure on our > aluminum aircraft would cause serious galvanic corrosion problems. > Go here to see what I mean > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_series > > Carbon (graphite) is at one end of the galvanic activity (nobility) table and aluminum is > nearly at the other end. > > Any metal in contact with the actual carbon fibers is subject to > galvanic corrosion. The degree of electrical activity which leads > to corrosion is proportional to the difference in "nobility" of the > materials=2C i.e.=2C the difference in position in the table. > The difference in "nobility" between carbon and aluminum > is almost as large as you can get. > > Consequently=2C you do not want to put anything made of carbon fiber > in contact with a metal part of a Bonanza. You especially do not want > to put anything made of carbon fiber in contact with magnesium which > is at that absolute other end of the "nobility" table from carbon (graphi te). > > Furthermore=2C there are serious mechanical issues with attaching composi te structures > to more conventional metal structures. Here=2C think about the Airbus rud der accident > at JFK a few years ago. > > Not a good idea=2C > > Dave Rogers > E33A for sale > > Just like the Piet discussions wandering=2C this started out with a quest ion about our Magnesium Ruddervators and wandered to this. > > Blue Skies=2C Steve D > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net> > Date: Tuesday=2C March 1=2C 2011 18:48 > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: weekend > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > > > No carbon fiber...that would not be to plans. > > > > Michael Perez > > > > Karetaker Aero > > > > www.karetakeraero.com > > > > Do Not Archive > > > > --- On Mon=2C 2/28/11=2C Ryan Mueller < wrote: > > > > From: Ryan Mueller < > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: weekend > > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > Date: Monday=2C February 28=2C 2011=2C 6:05 PM > > > > No carbon fiber? Geez..... > > do not archive > > > > On Mon=2C Feb 28=2C 2011 at 4:57 PM=2C Michael Perez < wrote: > > > > Cap strip and plywood is what I did. > > > > > > Michael Perez > > Karetaker Aero > > www.karetakeraero.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > >


    Message 32


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    Time: 08:25:35 PM PST US
    From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
    Nicely put, Bill. Michael, the question for me is, why would you WANT to use stainless steel? Other than being slightly more corrosion resistant than chromoly (it is NOT rust proof, but is corrosion resistant), it is generally an inferior material. It has less tensile strength, as has already been discussed, is more expensive, work hardens fairly rapidly and is difficult to drill. What possible advantage does it have? It probably will be adequate for the task, but as was mentioned earlier, it would be fairly simple to test it for this application by making a mockup and applying pressure with both feet. But why use it? It will need the ends squeezed flat and welded, just as Mike's spreader bars were done. Stainless steel (particularly the austenitic grades, such as 18-8, or the rest of the 300 series stainless steels) is useful for silverware and hypodermic needles and other applications where corrosion resistance is a key requirement. It is not much used in aircraft work because other materials are better suited. Try titanium. It has better strength, although not as much stiffness as stainless. And it has even better corrosion resistance. I suggest you listen well to Bill Church, since he is an engineer who spends nearly every day designing for stainless steel. He knows his stuff. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 9:31 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls Hoo-boy, what a response. Michael (as opposed to Mike), your argument is way off base. The spreader bars are NOT under a great deal of stress. The cross brace cables should only have enough tension in them to take up the slack. And in the straight axle gear, the axle essentially floats above the gear, attached by bungees. The point is that the straight axle doesn't impose side loads like the split gear would, therefore, even in a rough landing, there will not be extreme forces transmitted to the spreader bars. Nonetheless, as Mike related, his stainless steel spreaders did fail. The rudder bar, however CAN and WILL be exposed to considerable forces exerted by the pilot. Have you ever had to stop a vehicle suddenly, and find yourself pressing the brake pedal with all your strength? Pressing the pedal harder after the brakes have locked will do no good, yet that is what we do, as humans. In a moment of panic, the rudder bar will very likely be exposed to forces far greater than it should see under "nor! mal" conditions. There are some metal parts on the Pietenpol that can safely be replaced by stainless steel, but unless the wall thickness and/or O.D. is increased appropriately, the rudder bar isn't one. As I pointed out earlier, this is one of the few items that specifically call for cro-moly. If the plans had called for 1020 steel, then st.st. would provide a similar strength, but compared to 4130, st.st. is only half as strong. I realize that you are building YOUR plane, and doing it the way YOU want, and that's your prerogative. The only reason I'm bothering to respond is for the benefit of other builders out there who might be misled by your latest post. I've said my bit, and I'll now bow out of this discussion. Feel free to build as you please. We're only trying to give you a hand, but if you don't want to listen, that's your choice. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332438#332438


    Message 33


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    Time: 08:26:32 PM PST US
    From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
    Subject: you make your choices---you take your chances
    Mike-- I'm not here to debate the stresses of the spreader bars vs. the rudder bar, all I am saying is that with such a PRIMARY control you should reconsider using non-4130 grade tubing for your rudder bar but hey....that's the beauty of homebuilding---you can use whatever you want... just count me out as ever being your test pilot or passenger. Period. As long as YOU feel comfortable with your choices then YOU can do the test flying. Mike C. NX48MC


    Message 34


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    Time: 11:03:33 PM PST US
    From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
    Subject: Official Pietenpol-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions)
    Dear Listers, Please read over the Pietenpol-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete Pietenpol-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Pietenpol-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ] This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm ************************************************************ ******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ******* ************************************************************ PLEASE READ. This document contains Pietenpol-List policies and information for new and old subscribers. Understanding the Pietenpol-List policies will minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the Pietenpol-List running smoothly for all of us. ****************************************** *** Quick Start Guide to List Features *** ****************************************** There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List **************************************** *** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe *** **************************************** Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information. The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed. You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request. The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post until you receive the second conformation email message. ***************************** *** How to Post a Message *** ***************************** Send an email message to: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed to the List. ***************************************************** *** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post *** ***************************************************** When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor. If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that gets posted to the Lists. Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List: smith@machine.domain.com smith@domain.com Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to the List. ************************************** *** Enclosure Support on the Lists *** ************************************** Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the content of enclosures. These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics Lists: 1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists. 2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists. 3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site. 4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives. 5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature. 6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed: bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk. 7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down the process of posting the message !! Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists. 1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post 30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these folks and the rest of us, for that matter. 2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000 pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less. Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it! http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx Look for the link "Image Resizer" 3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother. And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even questionable. !! 4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and BE COURTEOUS! Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server for long time viewing and availability. ******************* *** Digest Mode *** ******************* Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started. This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:" and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting of a line of underscores. Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list. To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form described above, and just select the Digest version of the List. http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable. Now some caveats: * Messages sent to "pietenpol-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the digest List. * If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of the day. * If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please *do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*. **************************** *** List Digest Browser *** **************************** An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found at the following location: http://www.matronics.com/digest ***************************************** *** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag *** ***************************************** At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the message: do not archive Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List email distribution as normal. ********************************************** ***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes ***** ********************************************** Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving messages from the Pietenpol-List, go to the following Web page, and look for your email address and a possible reason for your removal. The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the Lists you will find record of it at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice. ******************************* *** List Member Information *** ******************************* If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and paper mail address in the following format: smith@somehost.com Joe Smith 123 Airport Lane Tower, CA 91234-1234 098-765-1234 w 123-456-7890 h Please forward this information to the following email address: requests@matronics.com I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the Pietenpol-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List Browser Interface in view-mode. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/pietenpol-list ******************************************* *** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface *** ******************************************* A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Pietenpol-List content. content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Pietenpol-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * Pietenpol-List.FAQ - Latest version of the Pietenpol-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the Pietenpol-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Pietenpol ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Pietenpol-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Pietenpol-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Pietenpol-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Pietenpol-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive


    Message 35


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    Time: 11:05:38 PM PST US
    From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
    Subject: Official Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines
    Dear Listers, Please read over the Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Pietenpol-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Pietenpol-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Pietenpol-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Pietenpol-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Pietenpol-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Pietenpol-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive


    Message 36


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    Time: 11:41:22 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
    From: "Billy McCaskill" <billmz@cox.net>
    Michael P., Just how much tailwheel time do you have, and how long have you been flying? Although I don't have a tailwheel endorsement on my license yet, it seems to me that the single most important control in a taildragger airplane is the rudder. I could be wrong on this, but I don't think so. But is this REALLY the place where you should be substituting inferior materials in your Perezenpol "just because"? If you decide not to use the SS tube, I have some leftover 1/2" type L (soft) copper plumbing pipe here I'll donate to you, it's probably lighter than the SS... With as much deviation from the plans as you have re-designed into your plane, it will hardly be recognizable as a Piet. I personally cannot figure out why you are going to such great lengths to re-engineer as much of the plane as possible when the existing design works just fine. You seem to ask a lot of questions, which is a very good thing. In my opinion and 20 years of experience as a professional firearms instructor, there's no such thing as a dumb question. However, you seem to ask your questions only in order to get validation for your sometimes rather strange or perhaps even dangerous ideas rather than to get honest answers from those who have engineering degrees, A&P certificates, and/or actually successfully built and flown their own planes. These people offer their opinions and ideas based on practical experience, and then you summarily dismiss them and do it your own way anyhow after all is said and done. I think Bernard got it pretty durn close 80 years ago, and I think most on the list would agree with me. I think the point of all of these warnings by the very generous and very knowledgeable people on this list who know better is that NOBODY wants to see you get hurt (or worse), or hurt someone else (or worse). I think it's a lot better to play the what-if game BEFORE something goes wrong than after. "What if I had only used 4130 for that rudder bar, then my plane might not be a pile of burning rags, splinters and inferior stainless tubing in that smoking hole in the weeds next to the runway." Sorry if I might have stepped on your toes, that's not my intention here. We all wish you the best and just want to see you build a SAFE airplane that won't kill you or somebody else, and the Piet as built to the plans IS ALREADY a proven, safe design that doesn't need massive re-engineering. In the words of Forrest Gump, "that's about all I got to say about that," stepping off my soapbox now. -------- Billy McCaskill Urbana, IL tail section almost done, starting on ribs soon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332457#332457




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