Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:37 AM - Re: Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea? (helspersew@aol.com)
2. 03:49 AM - Re: Last WWI US Vet has passed (helspersew@aol.com)
3. 07:41 AM - Re: weekend (Michael Perez)
4. 07:43 AM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Michael Perez)
5. 09:26 AM - Re: Last WWI US Vet has passed (Charles Campbell)
6. 09:50 AM - Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Bill Church)
7. 10:05 AM - Don't use Carbon Fiber (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG FORSCOM)
8. 10:20 AM - Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea? (DOMIT)
9. 10:22 AM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Michael Perez)
10. 10:22 AM - Re: N8031 (Dan Yocum)
11. 10:23 AM - Re: Seeking Dallas, TX Pietenpol member (DOMIT)
12. 10:38 AM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP])
13. 10:44 AM - Re: N8031 (Bill Church)
14. 11:11 AM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Michael Perez)
15. 11:36 AM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Scott Knowlton)
16. 12:39 PM - Oscar penned the Firewall Forward of the latest Sport Av (Ryan Mueller)
17. 12:52 PM - Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Billy McCaskill)
18. 01:44 PM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Michael Perez)
19. 02:06 PM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP])
20. 02:33 PM - Re: Re: Slow list day.........Bernerd, and his ideas (helspersew@aol.com)
21. 03:05 PM - Re: Re: Slow list day.........Bernerd, and his ideas (Rick Holland)
22. 04:36 PM - Re: HELP (Gene Rambo)
23. 05:35 PM - Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea? (Earnest Bunbury)
24. 05:35 PM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Michael Perez)
25. 05:42 PM - Re: Oscar penned the Firewall Forward of the latest Sport Av (Jack)
26. 05:48 PM - Re: Re: Slow list day.........Bernerd, and his ideas (Earnest Bunbury)
27. 06:33 PM - Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Bill Church)
28. 06:40 PM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Ryan Mueller)
29. 07:08 PM - what to use and what to fly with comfortably--an ongoing discussion (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP])
30. 07:10 PM - Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea? (Brett Phillips)
31. 07:34 PM - Re: Don't use Carbon Fiber (Doug Dever)
32. 08:25 PM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Jack Phillips)
33. 08:26 PM - you make your choices---you take your chances (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP])
34. 11:03 PM - Official Pietenpol-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
35. 11:05 PM - Official Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
36. 11:41 PM - Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Billy McCaskill)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea? |
Hi Jeff,
I hope you are right about the current draw. Maybe if it proves to discharg
e during flight, I can use it as a back-up like you said, only for T-off an
d landing, or other mag failure. Yes the spark advance is wired in place. I
already have the Slick mag with the impulse for starting purposes. Bernard
didn't used this set-up (or maybe, I better check the "lost" BHP Papers to
make sure) but at least it is unique and might be a topic of curiosity at
Brodhead.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL. (I'm back)
PS Boy wouldn't that be something if I get better performance than the mag?
.....nawwww
-----Original Message-----
From: bender <jfaith@solairusaviation.com>
Sent: Mon, Feb 28, 2011 8:57 am
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea?
>
Hey Dan ... do you have the FSI ignition parts in there ??
hey say it will work on 6-16 volts.. i can't imagine the current draw being
ery high myself but i see this as a good backup...
aybe a good primary ignition with more of a power source.. wind or engine
enerator..
noticed the spark advance is wired in place...i can see another lever in t
he
ockpit.... folks today don't get it
leave the keys in my 30 AA all the time.. only old guys know how to start
t...fuel on... retard spark...open throttle..choke..step on the right
utton...fun to drive but you gotta know how
jeff
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332299#332299
ttachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/aa_195.jpg
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Last WWI US Vet has passed |
Charles,
It is not widely known, But GHW Bush was NOT the youngest WWII naval aviato
r. It is in fact my neighbor (still going strong) Capt. Chuck Downey of Pop
lar Grove, IL. http://www.meyersaircraftowners.org/index.php?option=com_c
ontent&view=article&id=16%3Aa-toast-to-capt-chuck-s-downey&catid=10%3
Ahistorical-information&Itemid=12&showall=1
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
Message 3
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No carbon fiber...that would not be to plans.
Michael Perez
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
Do Not Archive
--- On Mon, 2/28/11, Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: weekend
No carbon fiber? Geez.....
do not archive
On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 4:57 PM, Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Cap strip and plywood is what I did.
Michael Perez
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder bar and forward controls |
I know Bill. I am pretty sure the bar can handle the rudder stresses.
Michael Perez
=0AKaretaker Aero
=0Awww.karetakeraero.com
--- On Mon, 2/28/11, Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca> wrote:
From: Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
>
One quick comment to Michael regarding the rudder bar.
You write that you used "standard tubing - .035" wall SS".
Just be aware that stainless steel tubing typically has only half the Yield
Strength of 4130 - and in this case, the plans specifically mention to use
chro-moly tubing for the rudder bar.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332335#332335
le, List Admin.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Last WWI US Vet has passed |
Yeah, someone else told me about Mr. Downey. Hadn't heard of him
before. Nice writeup even though there are some mistakes. Oh well,
maybe his memory is getting a little fuzzy -- like mine!
----- Original Message -----
From: helspersew@aol.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 6:46 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Last WWI US Vet has passed
Charles,
It is not widely known, But GHW Bush was NOT the youngest WWII naval
aviator. It is in fact my neighbor (still going strong) Capt. Chuck
Downey of Poplar Grove, IL.
http://www.meyersaircraftowners.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=
article&id=16%3Aa-toast-to-capt-chuck-s-downey&catid=10%3Ahistorical-
information&Itemid=12&showall=1
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder bar and forward controls |
Actually, the stresses induced on the rudder bar from the rudder are almost inconsequential.
Since the ends of the rudder bar are only connected to the rudder
by means of cables (if built to the plans), then only one end of the rudder
bar (the end that is pulling on the rudder) can be loaded at a time (you can't
push a rope).
What you need to be aware of is the potential for the pilot to bend the rudder
bar, by inadvertently pushing with both feet. The pilot will undoubtedly have
both feet pressing against the rudder bar at all times, and a bit of uncoordinated
footwork, or panic can result in an excessive amount of pushing on both sides
of the rudder bar at the same time.
Probably what you should do is take a scrap piece of the tubing you're using, the
same length as the rudder bar, and duplicate the center pivot arrangement,
and secure this bar to something solid. Then position yourself in a well secured
seat located at the proper distance from the rudder bar, and see how difficult
it is to bend the sample rudder bar. You may be surprised how little force
it takes to bend the tube.
There are very few metal parts in the plans that actually call for cro-moly steel,
but the rudder bar is one. Methinks it is specified that way for a reason.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332385#332385
Message 7
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| Subject: | Don't use Carbon Fiber |
speaking of Carbon fiber. On a Beechcraft list I follow as well (I own a 1948 forked
tail Dr Killer) the following was posted. Dave Rogers is a pretty smart
cracker. He has forgotten more than I will ever know about aerodynamics. Below
he describes why you don't want to mix carbon fiber and metal!
Steve D
G'day Fred,
You don't want to do that.
Aside from the fact that composite structures are not necessarily
lighter or stronger than aluminum structures, a carbon fiber structure on our
aluminum aircraft would cause serious galvanic corrosion problems.
Go here to see what I mean
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_series
Carbon (graphite) is at one end of the galvanic activity (nobility) table and aluminum
is
nearly at the other end.
Any metal in contact with the actual carbon fibers is subject to
galvanic corrosion. The degree of electrical activity which leads
to corrosion is proportional to the difference in "nobility" of the
materials, i.e., the difference in position in the table.
The difference in "nobility" between carbon and aluminum
is almost as large as you can get.
Consequently, you do not want to put anything made of carbon fiber
in contact with a metal part of a Bonanza. You especially do not want
to put anything made of carbon fiber in contact with magnesium which
is at that absolute other end of the "nobility" table from carbon (graphite).
Furthermore, there are serious mechanical issues with attaching composite structures
to more conventional metal structures. Here, think about the Airbus rudder accident
at JFK a few years ago.
Not a good idea,
Dave Rogers
E33A for sale
Just like the Piet discussions wandering, this started out with a question about
our Magnesium Ruddervators and wandered to this.
Blue Skies, Steve D
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: weekend
> No carbon fiber...that would not be to plans.
>
> Michael Perez
>
> Karetaker Aero
>
> www.karetakeraero.com
>
> Do Not Archive
>
> --- On Mon, 2/28/11, Ryan Mueller < wrote:
>
> From: Ryan Mueller <
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: weekend
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Date: Monday, February 28, 2011, 6:05 PM
>
> No carbon fiber? Geez.....
> do not archive
>
> On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 4:57 PM, Michael Perez < wrote:
>
> Cap strip and plywood is what I did.
>
>
> Michael Perez
> Karetaker Aero
> www.karetakeraero.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea? |
You know, "what would Bernard say" always comes up.
He used the materials and methods commonly available to him... converted 2 different
auto engines when they were relatively new to the market...
He was an innovator. I don't think he would exactly be one to frown on innovation...
--------
Brad "DOMIT" Smith
First rule of ground school: This is the ground... don't hit it going fast.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332389#332389
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder bar and forward controls |
I understand Bill and I appreciate your input.
Michael Perez
=0AKaretaker Aero
=0Awww.karetakeraero.com
--- On Tue, 3/1/11, Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca> wrote:
From: Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
>
Actually, the stresses induced on the rudder bar from the rudder are almost
inconsequential. Since the ends of the rudder bar are only connected to th
e rudder by means of cables (if built to the plans), then only one end of t
he rudder bar (the end that is pulling on the rudder) can be loaded at a ti
me (you can't push a rope).
What you need to be aware of is the potential for the pilot to bend the rud
der bar, by inadvertently pushing with both feet. The pilot will undoubtedl
y have both feet pressing against the rudder bar at all times, and a bit of
uncoordinated footwork, or panic can result in an excessive amount of push
ing on both sides of the rudder bar at the same time.
Probably what you should do is take a scrap piece of the tubing you're usin
g, the same length as the rudder bar, and duplicate the center pivot arrang
ement, and secure this bar to something solid. Then position yourself in a
well secured seat located at the proper distance from the rudder bar, and s
ee how difficult it is to bend the sample rudder bar. You may be surprised
how little force it takes to bend the tube.
There are very few metal parts in the plans that actually call for cro-moly
steel, but the rudder bar is one. Methinks it is specified that way for a
reason.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332385#332385
le, List Admin.
Message 10
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Tres put about 180 tach hours on it during the ~18mo that he owned it -
he and his friends flew the snot out of 8031!
I only put about 55 wallclock hours on her last year - about 6.5 of
those at Brodhead. :-)
Dan
On 02/28/2011 12:23 PM, Jack wrote:
> Who on the list owns this Piet? Holy cow does it get flown, I've enjoyed the
> pictures here https://picasaweb.google.com/TresClements
> Thanks
> Jack
> DSM
>
> Do not archive
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Seeking Dallas, TX Pietenpol member |
What KIND of assistance? I don't have a Piet...
I'm in Fort Worth (think of it as one big mess all blurred together, Dallas and
Fort Worth and... oh... a dozen plus smaller cities.
--------
Brad "DOMIT" Smith
First rule of ground school: This is the ground... don't hit it going fast.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332390#332390
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder bar and forward controls |
This is one area where I would not cut corners and would most certainly use
the 4130 as the rudder bar is THE most manipulated control
device on the entire airplane and is constantly being used both in flight a
nd on the ground.
Stainless will work harden, fatigue and crack with repeated excessive force
on both sides of the rudder bar (which all Pietenpol pilots apply during t
ight
turns on the ground and in panic, surge situations during a very gusty land
ing in a crosswind or to prevent a ground loop.
The proper way to fly any airplane (especially a taildragger) is to constan
tly apply pressure to BOTH rudders to provide positive feedback to both fee
t
rather than push one and release the other like you would do in shifting an
manual transmission car.
I would be more comfortable making the rudder bar out of white ash or some
other hardwood (like the WWI airplanes and Curtiss Jenny had) rather
than make it out of stainless tubing.
Mike C.
Message 13
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Dan wrote:
> he and his friends flew the snot out of 8031!
Why did 8031 have snot in it? That's gross.
BC
Do NOT Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332395#332395
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder bar and forward controls |
I feel comfortable with my rudder bar set up.
Michael Perez
=0AKaretaker Aero
=0Awww.karetakeraero.com
--- On Tue, 3/1/11, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP] <michae
l.d.cuy@nasa.gov> wrote:
From: Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP] <michael.d.cuy@nasa.g
ov>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
This is one area where I would not cut corners and would most certainly use
the 4130 as the rudder bar is THE most manipulated controldevice on the en
tire airplane and is constantly being used both in flight and on the ground
. -Stainless will work harden, fatigue and crack with repeated excessive
force on both sides of the rudder bar (which all Pietenpol pilots apply du
ring tightturns on the ground and in panic, surge situations during a very
gusty landing in a crosswind or to prevent a ground loop. -The proper wa
y to fly any airplane (especially a taildragger) is to constantly apply pre
ssure to BOTH rudders to provide positive feedback to both feetrather than
push one and release the other like you would do in shifting an manual tran
smission car. -I would be more comfortable making the rudder bar out of
white ash or some other hardwood (like the WWI airplanes and Curtiss Jenny
had) ratherthan make it out of stainless tubing.--- -Mike C. -
=0A
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder bar and forward controls |
Ditto to what Bill said but make sure to excite your adrenal glands whilst testing!
Scott Knowlton
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
Actually, the stresses induced on the rudder bar from the rudder are almost inconsequential.
Since the ends of the rudder bar are only connected to the rudder
by means of cables (if built to the plans), then only one end of the rudder
bar (the end that is pulling on the rudder) can be loaded at a time (you can't
push a rope).
What you need to be aware of is the potential for the pilot to bend the rudder
bar, by inadvertently pushing with both feet. The pilot will undoubtedly have
both feet pressing against the rudder bar at all times, and a bit of uncoordinated
footwork, or panic can result in an excessive amount of pushing on both sides
of the rudder bar at the same time.
Probably what you should do is take a scrap piece of the tubing you're using, the
same length as the rudder bar, and duplicate the center pivot arrangement,
and secure this bar to something solid. Then position yourself in a well secured
seat located at the proper distance from the rudder bar, and see how difficult
it is to bend the sample rudder bar. You may be surprised how little force
it takes to bend the tube.
There are very few metal parts in the plans that actually call for cro-moly steel,
but the rudder bar is one. Methinks it is specified that way for a reason.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332385#332385
Message 16
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| Subject: | Oscar penned the Firewall Forward of the latest Sport |
Av
Forwarded from the CorvAircraft list....
Oscar does a nice write-up of an overview of the small Continentals.
Good job Oscar!
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Pat Panzera <editor.contactmagazine@gmail.com>
Subject: CorvAircraft> Oscar Zuniga
Squirrel Net <sqrlnet@yahoogroups.com>
The "Firewall Forward" section of the newest Sport Aviation was authored by
our very own Oscar Zuniga.
http://www.sportaviationonline.org/sportaviation/201103#pg104
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder bar and forward controls |
Michael, do you intend to carry passengers in your plane when it's done? While
YOU might be comfortable with your rudder bar setup, how comfortable will your
screaming passenger be when your rudder bar fails in flight (or while landing/taxiing)
and you have no rudder control? Is this something that you REALLY
want to cut corners on? But, it is your plane and you may build it as you see
fit... personally, I'll be adhering strictly to what's called out on the plans
for critical control assemblies such as this. Just my $.02
--------
Billy McCaskill
Urbana, IL
tail section almost done, starting on ribs soon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332407#332407
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder bar and forward controls |
I appreciate the concerns, but I question what exactly will go wrong with S.S.?
Am I being told that some person may get in the plane and bend the bar in a double
footed panic? I do not understand what will work harden...the length of
sleeve through the bar where is comes in contact with the bolt? (Greased) Maybe
the flat ends of the bar where it comes in contact with the clevis pins? (Double
wall thickness here) As noted by one reader, the rudder stress on the bar
is relatively small, so how much force will be on those clevis pins? ( I am not
saying that is true, it is just what someone said earlier.)Maybe the area where
the sleeve through the bar rides on top of the "A" frame support? (Washer)
How much movement/stress needs to be applied to even start the work hardening
process?
No one need get in the plane that does not want to...nor whom is not invited.
I'm keeping the bar, anyone who wants to debate it further, feel free to contact
me off list...no need taking up space and cluttering up everyones email boxes.
Michael Perez
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
--- On Tue, 3/1/11, Billy McCaskill <billmz@cox.net> wrote:
> From: Billy McCaskill <billmz@cox.net>
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 3:49 PM
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted
> by: "Billy McCaskill" <billmz@cox.net>
>
> Michael, do you intend to carry passengers in your plane
> when it's done? While YOU might be comfortable with
> your rudder bar setup, how comfortable will your screaming
> passenger be when your rudder bar fails in flight (or while
> landing/taxiing) and you have no rudder control? Is
> this something that you REALLY want to cut corners on?
> But, it is your plane and you may build it as you see
> fit... personally, I'll be adhering strictly to what's
> called out on the plans for critical control assemblies such
> as this. Just my $.02
>
> --------
> Billy McCaskill
> Urbana, IL
> tail section almost done, starting on ribs soon
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332407#332407
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Email Forum -
> FAQ,
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> List Contribution Web Site -
> -Matt
> Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder bar and forward controls |
I think Billy made a great point in addition to Bill Church is that you're cheaping
out on something
that is a critical flight control that 'may' work fine for years and years but
then again may not.
Remember Mike....my spreader bars were made of stainless and last summer the one
ear of my front rudder
bar snapped off and dragged under the airplane after landing at a nearby fly-in.
Scary ? You bet but thankfully there are TWO spreader bars and the other one held
up to get me home safely.
In the Pietenpol you only have one rudder bar so you're probably right---it will
be fine and I'm glad you
are confident that it will be okay but in the grand scheme of things it isn't worth
taking a chance when for
a few bucks you could have aircraft grade 4130 in there.
I'd hate to be turning base to final with my wife or loved one in the front seat
and have something like my
rudder control fail 80 feet over the tall trees with no chance of recovery and
a nice tank of fuel ready to split
and catch fire as it flows over those hot exhaust pipes....
I guess that's why we are required to display a placard in full view of the passenger
which says that "this airplane
is amateur built and does not comply with the same standards that factory built
airplanes are required to comply with."
(paraphrased)
Mike C.
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Slow list day.........Bernerd, and his ideas |
I think some of the reason many of us choose this design, is a longing for
simpler times, and the ability to maybe travel back in history and stay the
re for a few precious moments. We fantasize about how it must have been, an
d (mistaking) use the "green grass" theory to imagine that it was a better
place. We define in our minds the things that were going on, to a definite
day or year, and don't want to inconvenience ourselves to recognize that ti
me never stands still............ Please leave me alone in my fantasies!!!
I want to stay here!!!
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
-----Original Message-----
From: DOMIT <rx7_ragtop@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:20 pm
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea?
You know, "what would Bernard say" always comes up.
He used the materials and methods commonly available to him... converted 2
ifferent auto engines when they were relatively new to the market...
He was an innovator. I don't think he would exactly be one to frown on
nnovation...
--------
rad "DOMIT" Smith
First rule of ground school: This is the ground... don't hit it going fast
.
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332389#332389
-= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum -
-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
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Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Slow list day.........Bernerd, and his ideas |
Until you have a "Viagra Moment" and then realize maybe some of that
new-fangled technology taint so bad after all.
On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 3:31 PM, <helspersew@aol.com> wrote:
> I think some of the reason many of us choose this design, is a longing for
> simpler times, and the ability to maybe travel back in history and stay
> there for a few precious moments. We fantasize about how it must have been,
> and (mistaking) use the "green grass" theory to imagine that it was a better
> place. We define in our minds the things that were going on, to a definite
> day or year, and don't want to inconvenience ourselves to recognize that
> time never stands still............ Please leave me alone in my fantasies!!!
> I want to stay here!!!
>
> Dan Helsper
> Poplar Grove, IL.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DOMIT <rx7_ragtop@yahoo.com>
> To: pietenpol-list <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:20 pm
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea?
>
>
> You know, "what would Bernard say" always comes up.
>
> He used the materials and methods commonly available to him... converted 2
> different auto engines when they were relatively new to the market...
>
> He was an innovator. I don't think he would exactly be one to frown on
> innovation...
>
> --------
> Brad "DOMIT" Smith
>
> First rule of ground school: This is the ground... don't hit it going fast.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332389#332389
>
>
> " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> p://forums.matronics.com
> blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
"A Foolish Consistency is the Hobgoblin of Little Minds"
Message 22
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Dick=2C I have no need for it=2C so come get it and do with it what you lik
e. Give me plenty of heads up on the date you will be passing through=2C a
nd be a little flexible=2C so I can make sure I am there.
From: horzpool@goldengate.net
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: HELP
Gene
I have had a number of e mails back and forth with guys from the Wood Shop
about which fuselage and which engine we are going to use. What it comes t
o is if you are comfortable with us putting the Model A with a Long fuselag
e and maybe having it seperated later I would still love to have it. How
ever if you arent comfortable with it being sold seperatly=2C Please say so
at this point and we will all understand. I definrtly be willing to drive
to D.C. to pick it up on the way to SNF.
Please let me know.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Rambo
Sent: Monday=2C February 28=2C 2011 7:52 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: HELP
Basically Washington DC. Aircraft is at Culpeper=2C Virginia about 60 mile
s southwest of city.
Gene
From: horzpool@goldengate.net
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: HELP
Hey again Gene
I don't remember where you are. I know it's in the east. I can do that th
ough. I am going early about the 17th of March.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Rambo
Sent: Sunday=2C February 27=2C 2011 6:45 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: HELP
dont know if I am going=2C but I won't be able to bring down if I do. If y
ou are going through this area=2C pick up would be great=2C we can pick aro
und and see if there is anything else I have extra. If not in this area=2C
I could ship to you.
Gene
do not archive
From: horzpool@goldengate.net
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: HELP
Thats great Gene. For that=2C are you going to SNF or I can also pick up.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Rambo
Sent: Saturday=2C February 26=2C 2011 8:42 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: HELP
Dick=2C I have a Model A engine mount and radiator mount that came off of J
ack McCarthy's Piet when he converted. I would be happy to donate these to
the cause.
Gene Rambo
From: horzpool@goldengate.net
Subject: Pietenpol-List: HELP
This year at Sun n Fun in the Wood Shop we are going to build a Pietenpol F
uselage and tail section. We are then going to donate what we build to Bro
dhead airport to be auctioned or sold at the Pietenpol reunion this summer
=2C for the concrete floor at the new visitors center. Dave Aldrich is goi
ng to contribute the wood and I am working on Wicks to contribute te plywoo
d. What we still need are steel fittings=2C ( bell crank=2C torque tube
=2C tail brackets and rudder assy bar also the wing fittings). Is there an
yone out there that can make a set for us? If you can=2C please contact me
off list? I know this is short notice and we cant pay for them but I appr
eciate what ever you all can do. Of couse if you can contribute anything e
lse we can use anything (engine mount=2C wing struts=2C fuel tank=2C tail w
heel or? ) I"m sure there a lot of things around the hangar floor you've
been meaning to sell or use someplace that would be perfect for our plane.
Dick N
horzpool@goldengate.net
st" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
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Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea? |
I don't know the answer, but there are few things that occur to me. A points
ignition system will draw about 3 amps/hour (I don't know what your
electronic module draws). A 12V battery that weighs 4-5 lbs (as per your
example) is probably good for 3-4 amp hours (Ah), so with no charging system
you probably have about an hour of flight time available through that
ignition system. A 5 watt solar battery charger (it's the larger one, about
12"x12", not the skinny one you put on your car dashboard) is going to put
out about 0.3 amps in direct sunlight, max. In theory, if you had ten of
those on your wing or top of fuselage, etc., then maybe it would be enough
juice to keep you flying on your secondary ignition. They do sell flexible
skin solar panels now, so this may not be too crazy...if you have the money.
Another solution, though, is to treat your electronic module truly as a
secondary ignition system, only to be used if your primary ignition failed.
In that case, you'd have about an hour of flying available just running on
your little battery. If that's too short, return the battery to ACS and buy
a 12V 8 Ah battery (available all over the place) that weigh a little over 8
lbs. Now you should have well over 2 h of flying available to get down
safely somewhere. Heck, I can't remember the last time I flew my Piet more
than 2 h in one flight. To keep the battery charged while your not flying,
just use one of those 5W chargers. I use one for the Piet's battery and it
easily keeps it topped up.
HTH,
Jeff
On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 6:08 PM, <helspersew@aol.com> wrote:
> Hi Pieters,
>
> I have been working diligently (and slowly) on rebuilding my "A" since the
> mishap last Sept. when my timing gear disintegrated. I decided to continue
> to use my 8-plug head, powered by one crank-driven mag, and a hybrid
> electronic ignition/battery ignition system. I bought a 4.4 lb. battery from
> ACS, which will energize the coil (looks like standard Model A coil) via a
> small electronic ignition module. I am imagining a small solar panel mounted
> on the fuel tank cover, to charge the battery.
>
> OK let the flames begin. (it's OK because I used Fiberfrax) And no smart
> ass remarks like "What would Bernerd say, Dan?"
>
> Dan Helsper
> Puryear TN., (until tomorrow only)
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder bar and forward controls |
..." 'may' work fine for- years and years but then again may not." That i
s true for any part of any plane...your spreader bar as an example.
-
Comparing spreader bars to rudder bars is not a good comparison. Spreader b
ars are under stress all the time...pushing back on the- tension from the
-four 1/8" L.G. cables. The rudder bar is only under stress while someone
is in the pilot seat.- How about those forces? Four 1/8" cables trying t
o compress the spreader bars, (how tight are those?)compared to...I don't k
now... two heavy feet-on the rudder bar? Then there are the forces on the
spreaders when actually making a landing...and I would venture a guess, a
few HARD landings. I just don't see a comparison here. Different regions of
the plane, way different forces.
-
You used SS tube. You smashed the ends flat. (Induced stress, maybe cold wo
rked as well.) Then you bent those smashed ends. ( More stress) Curious...Y
ou know when you smash the ends, those really, really tight bends that allo
w the two sides of the tube to come together, aren't those bends-IN LINE
with the grain? At some point, you put a 1/4" hole in that smashed, bent en
d as well and yet got 13 years out of it!- What did you replace your spre
ader bars with? I believe you said you used- a heavier wall S.S. tube...y
es? I believe you also said that if you have to replace them every 13 years
or so, that's cool.
-
Your story about the broken bar, loved one in the plane, tall trees, fuel,
hot exhaust, etc. is entertaining but nothing more then a "what if."--
Your spreader bar COULD have let go at altitude, smashing through the winds
hield of a school bus full of kids on the high way, killing the driver, the
bus crosses over to in on-coming traffic, smashing another school bus head
on, killing everyone in both buses, plus the surrounding vehicles that cou
ld not get out of the way in time. Then as you make an unexpected hard land
ing, your gear folds on one side, the wing tip drags... then starts the car
twheel... you get my drift.
-
I believe that the 3/16" clevis pins are NOT going to pull through the smas
hed ends of the now- .065" wall stainless. I would also bet that there wo
n't be enough stress to have that 5/16" bolt at the pivot pull through the
entire length of the sleeve and .035" wall tube. (3/4" tube) I guess it is
possible that the bar could bend if I were to freak out and press to hard o
n both ends.- I guess that is something to be aware of...no more then bei
ng aware to make sure the fuel cap is on right.
-
"...cheaping out"... Saving a few bucks is not the point. Not sure why ever
y time a change is made people assume it is money related.-
-
You are correct about the placard...that says it all.
-
Michael Perez
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
Message 25
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| Subject: | Oscar penned the Firewall Forward of the latest Sport |
Av
Fantastic article! Oscar I have to get your autograph when we meet!
Jack
Jack
DSM
Do not archive
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ryan Mueller
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 2:33 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Oscar penned the Firewall Forward of the
latest Sport Av
Forwarded from the CorvAircraft list....
Oscar does a nice write-up of an overview of the small Continentals.
Good job Oscar!
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Pat Panzera <editor.contactmagazine@gmail.com>
Subject: CorvAircraft> Oscar Zuniga
Squirrel Net <sqrlnet@yahoogroups.com>
The "Firewall Forward" section of the newest Sport Aviation was authored by
our very own Oscar Zuniga.
http://www.sportaviationonline.org/sportaviation/201103#pg104
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Slow list day.........Bernerd, and his ideas |
And such longing for simpler times goes all the way back to at least Roman
times, where it was documents in the writings of several bigwigs calling for
a return to ... simpler times!
As Casey Stengel would say "You could look it up!"
Do not archive
On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 6:02 PM, Rick Holland <at7000ft@gmail.com> wrote:
> Until you have a "Viagra Moment" and then realize maybe some of that
> new-fangled technology taint so bad after all.
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 3:31 PM, <helspersew@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> I think some of the reason many of us choose this design, is a longing for
>> simpler times, and the ability to maybe travel back in history and stay
>> there for a few precious moments. We fantasize about how it must have been,
>> and (mistaking) use the "green grass" theory to imagine that it was a better
>> place. We define in our minds the things that were going on, to a definite
>> day or year, and don't want to inconvenience ourselves to recognize that
>> time never stands still............ Please leave me alone in my fantasies!!!
>> I want to stay here!!!
>>
>> Dan Helsper
>> Poplar Grove, IL.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DOMIT <rx7_ragtop@yahoo.com>
>> To: pietenpol-list <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:20 pm
>> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea?
>>
>>
>> You know, "what would Bernard say" always comes up.
>>
>> He used the materials and methods commonly available to him... converted 2
>> different auto engines when they were relatively new to the market...
>>
>> He was an innovator. I don't think he would exactly be one to frown on
>> innovation...
>>
>> --------
>> Brad "DOMIT" Smith
>>
>> First rule of ground school: This is the ground... don't hit it going fast.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332389#332389
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>> p://forums.matronics.com
>> blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>>
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> *
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Rick Holland
> Castle Rock, Colorado
>
> "A Foolish Consistency is the Hobgoblin of Little Minds"
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder bar and forward controls |
Hoo-boy, what a response.
Michael (as opposed to Mike), your argument is way off base. The spreader bars
are NOT under a great deal of stress. The cross brace cables should only have
enough tension in them to take up the slack. And in the straight axle gear, the
axle essentially floats above the gear, attached by bungees. The point is that
the straight axle doesn't impose side loads like the split gear would, therefore,
even in a rough landing, there will not be extreme forces transmitted to
the spreader bars. Nonetheless, as Mike related, his stainless steel spreaders
did fail. The rudder bar, however CAN and WILL be exposed to considerable forces
exerted by the pilot. Have you ever had to stop a vehicle suddenly, and
find yourself pressing the brake pedal with all your strength? Pressing the pedal
harder after the brakes have locked will do no good, yet that is what we do,
as humans. In a moment of panic, the rudder bar will very likely be exposed
to forces far greater than it should see under "normal" conditions. There are
some metal parts on the Pietenpol that can safely be replaced by stainless steel,
but unless the wall thickness and/or O.D. is increased appropriately, the
rudder bar isn't one. As I pointed out earlier, this is one of the few items
that specifically call for cro-moly. If the plans had called for 1020 steel, then
st.st. would provide a similar strength, but compared to 4130, st.st. is only
half as strong.
I realize that you are building YOUR plane, and doing it the way YOU want, and
that's your prerogative. The only reason I'm bothering to respond is for the benefit
of other builders out there who might be misled by your latest post.
I've said my bit, and I'll now bow out of this discussion. Feel free to build as
you please. We're only trying to give you a hand, but if you don't want to listen,
that's your choice.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332438#332438
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder bar and forward controls |
I don't think they assume it's because you're cheap....I think they assume
it's because you have a preternatural obsession with being the snowflakiest
snowflake on the block...
:)
do not archive
On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 7:26 PM, Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>wrote:
> "...cheaping out"... Saving a few bucks is not the point. Not sure why
> every time a change is made people assume it is money related.
>
> You are correct about the placard...that says it all.
>
>
> Michael Perez
> Karetaker Aero
> www.karetakeraero.com
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | what to use and what to fly with comfortably--an ongoing |
discussion
There have been many accounts by very highly educated people of why or why not
we might prefer to use various metals and aircraft grade (which are READILY available)
hardware or not on a plans-built homebuilt design but I herewith withdraw my desire
to test fly the gorgeously-built airplane by Michael Perez. I think if
YOU feel comfortable
with all the changes you have made in the airplane and bill of materials that you
in fact should be the test pilot and I will be there at Columbia Airport cheering
you on and
being one of the very first to congratulate you on your first test flight but will
take no part in flying off the test time nor ever get into your airplane for
any subsequent rides or
flights thereafter. The plans built airplane is to the utmost the MOST experimental
plane in the air today in the United States of America and thank GOD
we don't have to go
thru the rigors of the PFA or the mess that the other countries prescribe they
go thru just to change a nut or bolt here and there. Happy flying to all and
to all a Good Night !
Mike C. Ohio
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea? |
Dan:
Would you be interested in selling your side mounted magneto setup? I might be
interested if it is available. I've followed your troubles on the list, and I
think the gear driven mag could be made to be very reliable with careful setup
of gear mesh. I would be concerned that a standby ignition system that is turned
off most of the time would suffer from fouled plugs.
Brett Phillips
Strasburg, VA
NX311GP
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332443#332443
Message 31
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| Subject: | Don't use Carbon Fiber |
Not to mention the huge diference in the coefficient of thermal expansion.
Mow=2C carbon fiber and wood...
Doug Dever
In beautiful Stow Ohio
> From: steven.d.dortch@us.army.mil
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Date: Tue=2C 1 Mar 2011 21:03:18 +0300
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Don't use Carbon Fiber
>
OM" <steven.d.dortch@us.army.mil>
>
> speaking of Carbon fiber. On a Beechcraft list I follow as well (I own a
1948 forked tail Dr Killer) the following was posted. Dave Rogers is a pret
ty smart cracker. He has forgotten more than I will ever know about aerodyn
amics. Below he describes why you don't want to mix carbon fiber and metal!
> Steve D
>
> G'day Fred=2C
>
> You don't want to do that.
>
> Aside from the fact that composite structures are not necessarily
> lighter or stronger than aluminum structures=2C a carbon fiber structure
on our
> aluminum aircraft would cause serious galvanic corrosion problems.
> Go here to see what I mean
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_series
>
> Carbon (graphite) is at one end of the galvanic activity (nobility) table
and aluminum is
> nearly at the other end.
>
> Any metal in contact with the actual carbon fibers is subject to
> galvanic corrosion. The degree of electrical activity which leads
> to corrosion is proportional to the difference in "nobility" of the
> materials=2C i.e.=2C the difference in position in the table.
> The difference in "nobility" between carbon and aluminum
> is almost as large as you can get.
>
> Consequently=2C you do not want to put anything made of carbon fiber
> in contact with a metal part of a Bonanza. You especially do not want
> to put anything made of carbon fiber in contact with magnesium which
> is at that absolute other end of the "nobility" table from carbon (graphi
te).
>
> Furthermore=2C there are serious mechanical issues with attaching composi
te structures
> to more conventional metal structures. Here=2C think about the Airbus rud
der accident
> at JFK a few years ago.
>
> Not a good idea=2C
>
> Dave Rogers
> E33A for sale
>
> Just like the Piet discussions wandering=2C this started out with a quest
ion about our Magnesium Ruddervators and wandered to this.
>
> Blue Skies=2C Steve D
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
> Date: Tuesday=2C March 1=2C 2011 18:48
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: weekend
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>
>
> > No carbon fiber...that would not be to plans.
> >
> > Michael Perez
> >
> > Karetaker Aero
> >
> > www.karetakeraero.com
> >
> > Do Not Archive
> >
> > --- On Mon=2C 2/28/11=2C Ryan Mueller < wrote:
> >
> > From: Ryan Mueller <
> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: weekend
> > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> > Date: Monday=2C February 28=2C 2011=2C 6:05 PM
> >
> > No carbon fiber? Geez.....
> > do not archive
> >
> > On Mon=2C Feb 28=2C 2011 at 4:57 PM=2C Michael Perez < wrote:
> >
> > Cap strip and plywood is what I did.
> >
> >
> > Michael Perez
> > Karetaker Aero
> > www.karetakeraero.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder bar and forward controls |
Nicely put, Bill.
Michael, the question for me is, why would you WANT to use stainless steel?
Other than being slightly more corrosion resistant than chromoly (it is NOT
rust proof, but is corrosion resistant), it is generally an inferior
material. It has less tensile strength, as has already been discussed, is
more expensive, work hardens fairly rapidly and is difficult to drill. What
possible advantage does it have?
It probably will be adequate for the task, but as was mentioned earlier, it
would be fairly simple to test it for this application by making a mockup
and applying pressure with both feet. But why use it? It will need the
ends squeezed flat and welded, just as Mike's spreader bars were done.
Stainless steel (particularly the austenitic grades, such as 18-8, or the
rest of the 300 series stainless steels) is useful for silverware and
hypodermic needles and other applications where corrosion resistance is a
key requirement. It is not much used in aircraft work because other
materials are better suited. Try titanium. It has better strength,
although not as much stiffness as stainless. And it has even better
corrosion resistance.
I suggest you listen well to Bill Church, since he is an engineer who spends
nearly every day designing for stainless steel. He knows his stuff.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP "Icarus Plummet"
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 9:31 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
Hoo-boy, what a response.
Michael (as opposed to Mike), your argument is way off base. The spreader
bars are NOT under a great deal of stress. The cross brace cables should
only have enough tension in them to take up the slack. And in the straight
axle gear, the axle essentially floats above the gear, attached by bungees.
The point is that the straight axle doesn't impose side loads like the split
gear would, therefore, even in a rough landing, there will not be extreme
forces transmitted to the spreader bars. Nonetheless, as Mike related, his
stainless steel spreaders did fail. The rudder bar, however CAN and WILL be
exposed to considerable forces exerted by the pilot. Have you ever had to
stop a vehicle suddenly, and find yourself pressing the brake pedal with all
your strength? Pressing the pedal harder after the brakes have locked will
do no good, yet that is what we do, as humans. In a moment of panic, the
rudder bar will very likely be exposed to forces far greater than it should
see under "nor!
mal" conditions. There are some metal parts on the Pietenpol that can
safely be replaced by stainless steel, but unless the wall thickness and/or
O.D. is increased appropriately, the rudder bar isn't one. As I pointed out
earlier, this is one of the few items that specifically call for cro-moly.
If the plans had called for 1020 steel, then st.st. would provide a similar
strength, but compared to 4130, st.st. is only half as strong.
I realize that you are building YOUR plane, and doing it the way YOU want,
and that's your prerogative. The only reason I'm bothering to respond is for
the benefit of other builders out there who might be misled by your latest
post.
I've said my bit, and I'll now bow out of this discussion. Feel free to
build as you please. We're only trying to give you a hand, but if you don't
want to listen, that's your choice.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332438#332438
Message 33
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| Subject: | you make your choices---you take your chances |
Mike-- I'm not here to debate the stresses of the spreader bars vs. the rudder
bar, all I am saying is that with such a PRIMARY control you
should reconsider using non-4130 grade tubing for your rudder bar but hey....that's
the beauty of homebuilding---you can use whatever you want...
just count me out as ever being your test pilot or passenger. Period. As long
as YOU feel comfortable with your choices then YOU can do the test flying.
Mike C.
NX48MC
Message 34
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| Subject: | Official Pietenpol-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Pietenpol-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The
complete Pietenpol-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Pietenpol-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ]
This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm
************************************************************
******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS *******
************************************************************
PLEASE READ. This document contains Pietenpol-List policies and information
for new and old subscribers. Understanding the Pietenpol-List policies will
minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the Pietenpol-List
running smoothly for all of us.
******************************************
*** Quick Start Guide to List Features ***
******************************************
There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each
one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator
you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this
List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
****************************************
*** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe ***
****************************************
Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and
select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You
may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of
your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the
complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information.
The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is:
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption
process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request
was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed.
You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request.
The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post
until you receive the second conformation email message.
*****************************
*** How to Post a Message ***
*****************************
Send an email message to:
pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed
to the List.
*****************************************************
*** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post ***
*****************************************************
When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message
is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the
email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor.
If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it
is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that
gets posted to the Lists.
Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important
with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook
or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be
functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM
test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List:
smith@machine.domain.com
smith@domain.com
Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure
your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to
the List.
**************************************
*** Enclosure Support on the Lists ***
**************************************
Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets
is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these
are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the
content of enclosures.
These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics
Lists:
1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists.
2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists.
3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site.
4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives.
5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature.
6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed:
bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls
All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to
sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from
a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk.
7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting
to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down
the process of posting the message !!
Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules
could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists.
1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files
you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there
are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post
30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these
folks and the rest of us, for that matter.
2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000
pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just
unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture
down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the
file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less.
Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
Look for the link "Image Resizer"
3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not
post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother.
And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even
questionable. !!
4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members
subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting
to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and
BE COURTEOUS!
Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where
you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
for long time viewing and availability.
*******************
*** Digest Mode ***
*******************
Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started.
This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended
to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:"
and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting
of a line of underscores.
Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be
combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list.
To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form
described above, and just select the Digest version of the List.
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions
of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable.
Now some caveats:
* Messages sent to "pietenpol-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard
email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the
digest List.
* If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you
will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of
the day.
* If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the
normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change
the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please
*do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*.
****************************
*** List Digest Browser ***
****************************
An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text
or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to
the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found
at the following location:
http://www.matronics.com/digest
*****************************************
*** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag ***
*****************************************
At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very
small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive
it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the
message:
do not archive
Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List
email distribution as normal.
**********************************************
***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes *****
**********************************************
Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced
email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly
removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving
messages from the Pietenpol-List, go to the following Web page, and look
for your email address and a possible reason for your removal.
The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that
automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that
caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox
full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the
Lists you will find record of it at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed
If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel
free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice.
*******************************
*** List Member Information ***
*******************************
If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and
paper mail address in the following format:
smith@somehost.com
Joe Smith
123 Airport Lane
Tower, CA 91234-1234
098-765-1234 w
123-456-7890 h
Please forward this information to the following email address:
requests@matronics.com
I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when
there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT
be used for any other commercial purpose.
****************************************
*** Realtime Web Email List Browsing ***
****************************************
Recent messages posted to the Pietenpol-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/pietenpol-list
*******************************************
*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
*******************************************
A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Pietenpol-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Pietenpol-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* Pietenpol-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the Pietenpol-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the Pietenpol-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Pietenpol
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
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Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
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If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Pietenpol-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Pietenpol-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Pietenpol-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Pietenpol-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Message 35
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| Subject: | Official Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Pietenpol-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Pietenpol-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
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Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines
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The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Pietenpol-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Pietenpol-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Pietenpol-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Pietenpol-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
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[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder bar and forward controls |
Michael P.,
Just how much tailwheel time do you have, and how long have you been flying? Although
I don't have a tailwheel endorsement on my license yet, it seems to me
that the single most important control in a taildragger airplane is the rudder.
I could be wrong on this, but I don't think so. But is this REALLY the place
where you should be substituting inferior materials in your Perezenpol "just
because"? If you decide not to use the SS tube, I have some leftover 1/2"
type L (soft) copper plumbing pipe here I'll donate to you, it's probably lighter
than the SS... With as much deviation from the plans as you have re-designed
into your plane, it will hardly be recognizable as a Piet. I personally
cannot figure out why you are going to such great lengths to re-engineer as much
of the plane as possible when the existing design works just fine.
You seem to ask a lot of questions, which is a very good thing. In my opinion
and 20 years of experience as a professional firearms instructor, there's no such
thing as a dumb question. However, you seem to ask your questions only in
order to get validation for your sometimes rather strange or perhaps even dangerous
ideas rather than to get honest answers from those who have engineering
degrees, A&P certificates, and/or actually successfully built and flown their
own planes. These people offer their opinions and ideas based on practical
experience, and then you summarily dismiss them and do it your own way anyhow
after all is said and done. I think Bernard got it pretty durn close 80 years
ago, and I think most on the list would agree with me.
I think the point of all of these warnings by the very generous and very knowledgeable
people on this list who know better is that NOBODY wants to see you get
hurt (or worse), or hurt someone else (or worse). I think it's a lot better
to play the what-if game BEFORE something goes wrong than after. "What if I
had only used 4130 for that rudder bar, then my plane might not be a pile of burning
rags, splinters and inferior stainless tubing in that smoking hole in the
weeds next to the runway."
Sorry if I might have stepped on your toes, that's not my intention here. We all
wish you the best and just want to see you build a SAFE airplane that won't
kill you or somebody else, and the Piet as built to the plans IS ALREADY a proven,
safe design that doesn't need massive re-engineering.
In the words of Forrest Gump, "that's about all I got to say about that," stepping
off my soapbox now.
--------
Billy McCaskill
Urbana, IL
tail section almost done, starting on ribs soon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332457#332457
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