Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:26 AM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (CLIF DAWSON)
2. 03:46 AM - Re: Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea? (helspersew@aol.com)
3. 04:31 AM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Gene Rambo)
4. 05:37 AM - Re: what to use and what to fly with comfortably--an ongoing discussion (Michael Perez)
5. 05:40 AM - Re: you make your choices---you take your chances (Michael Perez)
6. 05:55 AM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Michael Perez)
7. 06:09 AM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (james theissen)
8. 06:27 AM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Scott Knowlton)
9. 06:30 AM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Gboothe5)
10. 06:42 AM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Michael Perez)
11. 07:02 AM - Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea? (Brett Phillips)
12. 08:08 AM - Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. (Michael Perez)
13. 08:37 AM - Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. (Owen Davies)
14. 09:40 AM - Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. (Michael Perez)
15. 10:46 AM - Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. (bphillip@shentel.net)
16. 11:09 AM - Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. (Doug Dever)
17. 11:11 AM - Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. (Doug Dever)
18. 11:11 AM - HINT videos - caveat emptor (Bill Church)
19. 11:32 AM - Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor (K5YAC)
20. 11:37 AM - Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. (bphillip@shentel.net)
21. 12:25 PM - Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. (Bill Church)
22. 12:35 PM - Re: Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. (Ryan Mueller)
23. 02:28 PM - Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. (K5YAC)
24. 02:44 PM - Re: Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. (Ryan Mueller)
25. 02:54 PM - Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor (Michael Perez)
26. 03:11 PM - Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor (airlion)
27. 04:00 PM - Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor (Ryan Mueller)
28. 04:26 PM - Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor (Billy McCaskill)
29. 04:37 PM - Re: Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor (Ryan Mueller)
30. 05:02 PM - with all the fuss-- (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP])
31. 06:05 PM - Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor (airlion)
32. 06:43 PM - Re: with all the fuss-- (shad bell)
33. 07:08 PM - Re: with all the fuss-- (coxwelljon)
34. 07:45 PM - Oscar's articles (Earnest Bunbury)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder bar and forward controls |
That must be why I have TWO rudder bars! :-)
Clif
.What you need to be aware of is the potential for the
> pilot to bend the rudder bar, by inadvertently pushing with both
> feet. The pilot will undoubtedly have both feet pressing against
> the rudder bar at all times, and a bit of uncoordinated
> footwork, or panic can result in an excessive amount of pushing
> on both sides of the rudder bar at the same time.
>
> Bill C.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea? |
Hi Brett,
That plug fouling thing has some merit. I had not thought of that aspect. I
am not sure if I want to sell that side mount mag set-up, until things pan
out. Thanks for your input.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brett Phillips <bphillip@shentel.net>
Sent: Tue, Mar 1, 2011 9:10 pm
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea?
t>
Dan:
ould you be interested in selling your side mounted magneto setup? I might
be
nterested if it is available. I've followed your troubles on the list, and
I
hink the gear driven mag could be made to be very reliable with careful set
up
f gear mesh. I would be concerned that a standby ignition system that is
urned off most of the time would suffer from fouled plugs.
Brett Phillips
trasburg, VA
X311GP
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332443#332443
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder bar and forward controls |
Every single person on here=2C most with a LOT of experience=2C have said i
t is a bad idea. If you are going to do it anyway=2C enough with the justi
fications and somewhat insulting remarks. Just do it and let's move on.
Gene Rambo
From: speedbrake@sbcglobal.net
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
..." 'may' work fine for years and years but then again may not." That is
true for any part of any plane...your spreader bar as an example.
Comparing spreader bars to rudder bars is not a good comparison. Spreader b
ars are under stress all the time...pushing back on the tension from the f
our 1/8" L.G. cables. The rudder bar is only under stress while someone is
in the pilot seat. How about those forces? Four 1/8" cables trying to comp
ress the spreader bars=2C (how tight are those?)compared to...I don't know.
.. two heavy feet on the rudder bar? Then there are the forces on the sprea
ders when actually making a landing...and I would venture a guess=2C a few
HARD landings. I just don't see a comparison here. Different regions of the
plane=2C way different forces.
You used SS tube. You smashed the ends flat. (Induced stress=2C maybe cold
worked as well.) Then you bent those smashed ends. ( More stress) Curious..
.You know when you smash the ends=2C those really=2C really tight bends tha
t allow the two sides of the tube to come together=2C aren't those bends IN
LINE with the grain? At some point=2C you put a 1/4" hole in that smashed
=2C bent end as well and yet got 13 years out of it! What did you replace
your spreader bars with? I believe you said you used a heavier wall S.S. t
ube...yes? I believe you also said that if you have to replace them every 1
3 years or so=2C that's cool.
Your story about the broken bar=2C loved one in the plane=2C tall trees=2C
fuel=2C hot exhaust=2C etc. is entertaining but nothing more then a "what i
f." Your spreader bar COULD have let go at altitude=2C smashing through t
he windshield of a school bus full of kids on the high way=2C killing the d
river=2C the bus crosses over to in on-coming traffic=2C smashing another s
chool bus head on=2C killing everyone in both buses=2C plus the surrounding
vehicles that could not get out of the way in time. Then as you make an un
expected hard landing=2C your gear folds on one side=2C the wing tip drags.
.. then starts the cartwheel... you get my drift.
I believe that the 3/16" clevis pins are NOT going to pull through the smas
hed ends of the now .065" wall stainless. I would also bet that there won'
t be enough stress to have that 5/16" bolt at the pivot pull through the en
tire length of the sleeve and .035" wall tube. (3/4" tube) I guess it is po
ssible that the bar could bend if I were to freak out and press to hard on
both ends. I guess that is something to be aware of...no more then being a
ware to make sure the fuel cap is on right.
"...cheaping out"... Saving a few bucks is not the point. Not sure why ever
y time a change is made people assume it is money related.
You are correct about the placard...that says it all.
Michael Perez
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: what to use and what to fly with comfortably--an ongoing |
discussion
Understood. I had reached that same conclusion Mike, no need for anyone else to
get into the pilot seat of my plane.
Michael Perez
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: you make your choices---you take your chances |
Noted and I concur. Period.
Michael Perez
=0AKaretaker Aero
=0Awww.karetakeraero.com
--- On Tue, 3/1/11, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP] <michae
l.d.cuy@nasa.gov> wrote:
From: Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP] <michael.d.cuy@nasa.g
ov>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: you make your choices---you take your chances
SPACE CORP]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
Mike-- I'm not here to debate the stresses of the spreader bars vs. the rud
der bar, all I am saying is that with such a PRIMARY control you
should reconsider using non-4130 grade tubing for your rudder bar but hey..
..that's the beauty of homebuilding---you can use whatever you want...
just count me out as ever being your test pilot or passenger.- Period.-
--As long as YOU feel comfortable with your choices then YOU can do the
test flying.
Mike C.
NX48MC
le, List Admin.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder bar and forward controls |
I agree there are people here who actually know what they are talking about
.-- As I have said I appreciate the comments and concerns by most here
and I do think and rethink my position after reading such posts. I DO NOT a
ppreciate the soap opera story telling just to suit ones own position nor t
he degrading name calling.- I want to use SS here because that is what I
want. I feel that even after reading these posts, knowing what material I u
sed, how it was assembled and how it will be installed, I am comfortable us
ing it as my rudder bar. I will keep an eye on it as with the rest of the p
lane.
True, the ends are squeezed and drilled, but they are not bent and I still
feel the landing gear sees more abuse then a rudder bar. Mike got 13 years
out of that bar, I bet I will get at least that out of my rudder bar.
Seems most feel that a rudder failure of some sort is a death sentence. Rea
lly? Is it imposable to make a landing without a rudder?
I would rather not argue, but at times I feel some people just throw out wo
rds, numbers and stories that are not true.
Michael Perez
=0AKaretaker Aero
=0Awww.karetakeraero.com
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder bar and forward controls |
Hi, i'm new to this site, but not new to the field of aviation. I've been
an army pilot for over 14 years, and flew many combat hours in Afghanistan.
I"ve been following this thread, and i think i should throw in my two cents,
so here it goes, If it calls it out in the prints, there's probably a good
reason for it. Hey, if your going to subsitute Aircraft grade 4130 for SS,
you might as well use yellow pine instead of spruce for the fuselage and
spars too! Don't fly over southeast georgia. thanks. jt
On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 8:52 AM, Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>wrote:
> I agree there are people here who actually know what they are talking
> about. As I have said I appreciate the comments and concerns by most here
> and I do think and rethink my position after reading such posts. I DO NOT
> appreciate the soap opera story telling just to suit ones own position nor
> the degrading name calling. I want to use SS here because that is what I
> want. I feel that even after reading these posts, knowing what material I
> used, how it was assembled and how it will be installed, I am comfortable
> using it as my rudder bar. I will keep an eye on it as with the rest of the
> plane.
>
> True, the ends are squeezed and drilled, but they are not bent and I still
> feel the landing gear sees more abuse then a rudder bar. Mike got 13 years
> out of that bar, I bet I will get at least that out of my rudder bar.
>
> Seems most feel that a rudder failure of some sort is a death sentence.
> Really? Is it imposable to make a landing without a rudder?
>
> I would rather not argue, but at times I feel some people just throw out
> words, numbers and stories that are not true.
>
> Michael Perez
> Karetaker Aero
> www.karetakeraero.com
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder bar and forward controls |
12,000 hours of experience tells me I would not want to lose my rudder control.
Aileron, pitch, power and trim can all be dealt with. No rudder on a tailwheel
aircraft? The best one can hope for is a violent ground loop on landing.
Try your next approach with your feet on the floor through touch down and roll
out. Let me know how it works out.
Scott Knowlton
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
I agree there are people here who actually know what they are talking about. As
I have said I appreciate the comments and concerns by most here and I do think
and rethink my position after reading such posts. I DO NOT appreciate the soap
opera story telling just to suit ones own position nor the degrading name calling.
I want to use SS here because that is what I want. I feel that even after
reading these posts, knowing what material I used, how it was assembled and
how it will be installed, I am comfortable using it as my rudder bar. I will
keep an eye on it as with the rest of the plane.
True, the ends are squeezed and drilled, but they are not bent and I still feel
the landing gear sees more abuse then a rudder bar. Mike got 13 years out of
that bar, I bet I will get at least that out of my rudder bar.
Seems most feel that a rudder failure of some sort is a death sentence. Really?
Is it imposable to make a landing without a rudder?
I would rather not argue, but at times I feel some people just throw out words,
numbers and stories that are not true.
Michael Perez
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder bar and forward controls |
Interesting.I just Googled, "Aircraft Stainless Steel Failures.".quite a bit
of reading.
Gary Boothe
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder bar and forward controls |
Billy, no toe stepping felt here. Like the old saying, "It's not what you s
ay, it's how you say it."- I'll answer your post in order of questions.
I have about an hour or so tail wheel time. No landings and No take offs. I
have about 20 min. of on ground slow taxi practice. (basically no time)
-I disagree on the rudder being the single most important control.
"...hardly be recognizable as a Piet." That sounds like one of those over t
he top, no merit stories. Sure I have made changes...who hasn't? Most cosme
tic, but none changes the overall look of the plane. My rudder bar still lo
oks like a rudder bar. The fuselage, gear, wings, tail..all Pietenpol. Not
sure where this idea of not being recognized comes from.
I mainly ask questions to see if anyone else has tried, or knows someone wh
o has tried, the same thing. However, I did not ask if my rudder bar is OK
to change.- It was brought up by another person from another post. If som
eone could HONESTLY tell me that a SS rudder bar has failed in a Pietenpol,
I would reconsider.
..."These people offer their opinions and ideas based on practical experien
ce..."- Not always true. Most of the time yes, but not always.
Sure, the plane as drawn works fine. People have made changes over the year
s and I bet most of those were frowned upon at first. I understand the gene
ral concern here, but it seems that if a persons plane is not built to the
plans, not built the way others have already done it or not built to the li
king of everyone else, then there is a big upheaval.
..." I think it's a lot better to play the what-if game BEFORE something go
es wrong..." Your assuming something is going to go wrong. However, I agree
with this statement, so I ask the questions you may find strange on this l
ist. But when I do, the upheaval begins. It's difficult to inquire about "a
lternatives" knowing your going to get hammered for it. But I do so anyway,
because I want to know..not to start a fight.
""What if I had only used 4130 for that rudder bar, then my plane might =0A
not be a pile of burning rags, splinters and inferior stainless tubing =0Ai
n that smoking hole in the weeds next to the runway."
Good story, here's another:
After countless hours of flight time, bad weather, bad landings, crosswind
landings and panicked feet, the SS rudder bar has performed flawless to thi
s day and will continue to do so for many, many years to come.
"... doesn't need massive re-engineering." Agreed. To some, my changes may
be considered mass re-engineering, but I believe that may be a little extre
me. I do not consider the changes massive.
All in all I have read all the comments and I have a decision to make about
the rudder bar. My apologies to those who do not agree, and get upset.
Michael Perez
=0AKaretaker Aero
=0Awww.karetakeraero.com
-
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea? |
I'm glad to hear that you haven't completely given up on the side drive. Keep
in mind that you could always find a WICO model X that plugs into the distributor
hole. They are not the prettiest thing in the world but as the old folks
used to say, "Pretty is as Pretty does". They turn up on Ebay frequently, and
parts are available from Standard Magneto Sales in Chicago.
Brett Phillips
Strasburg, VA
NX311GP
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332490#332490
Message 12
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| Subject: | Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. |
If memory servers, the plans show the steel wing strut being bolted directly to
the fuselage fitting. The strut slips over the fitting and gets bolted through
with a single 5/16" bolt. I would like to use that same attaching method with
my aluminum strut. My plan is to weld onto the aluminum strut, aluminum plates
to beef up the bolt hole area. My question is how thick do these plates need
to be and how large? (area over the strut)
If you
go to the West Coast Piet. site, Jim Markle's pictures, page 4, second to last
picture, you will see what I mean. The difference being that I plan to bolt directly
to the fitting..no straps.
My math:
1/4" plate X2 plus the .119" wall of the tube = .25(2) + .119"(2) = .738"
.469" edge spacing X .738 = .346" sq.
.346"sq. X 11,600PSI (shear for the strut tube) = 4,013 lbs.
Michael Perez
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. |
On 3/2/2011 11:05 AM, Michael Perez wrote:
> My plan is to weld onto the aluminum strut, aluminum plates to beef
up the bolt hole area.
You do know that welded aluminum takes on the structural properties of
cheese? 6061-T6 will eventually return to about the T4 condition, but at
best it's much less strong than after proper heat-treating, which is
beyond amateur capabilities. 2024 is generally considered not to be
weldable. You can stick two pieces together, but don't expect them to
remain that way under stress.
The Honey Bee and Pegasus ultralights, with fuselages made of welded
square aluminum tube, only look like they disprove the above. The guy
who designed them sized the tubing so it would be strong enough for use
in a small, lightly stressed airplane even after welding. Then he made
sure to keep the heat-affected zone as small as possible.
Considering the above, the notion of welding plates onto your struts
worries me. I believe the usual technique is to bolt a piece of square
aluminum stock inside the airfoil strut, and then bolt through the
square stock to the strut fittings.
FWIW
Owen
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. |
I was aware of some softening, but I did not know to what degree. I know some use
the aluminum insert threaded for a fork end, there is that option as well.
Michael Perez
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. |
Michael:
6061 aluminum has an ultimate tensile strength of 45,000 psi in the T6
condition. The as-welded UTS of material within the heat affected zone can be
as
HIGH as 24-25,000 psi if proper procedures are used with strict adherence to
interpass temperatures. In short, it really does turn into bubble gum once it
is
heated. After naturally aging for a long period of time, the T4 condition MAY
be
achieved, which would give ~40,000 psi. I'm an AWS welding inspector, and I like
bolts for this application.
Brett Phillips
Strasburg, VA
NX311GP
> I was aware of some softening, but I did not know to what degree. I know some
use the
aluminum insert threaded for a fork end, there is that option as well.
>
> Michael Perez
>
> Karetaker Aero
>
> www.karetakeraero.com
>
>
---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using Shentel WebMail.
http://WebMail.Shentel.Net
Message 16
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| Subject: | Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. |
Thats the way all float fittings are done-bolted. I would not weld anythin
g aluminum that is structural.
Doug Dever
In beautiful Stow Ohio
> Date: Wed=2C 2 Mar 2011 11:33:27 -0500
> From: owen5819@comcast.net
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach.
>
>
> On 3/2/2011 11:05 AM=2C Michael Perez wrote:
>
> > My plan is to weld onto the aluminum strut=2C aluminum plates to beef
> up the bolt hole area.
>
> You do know that welded aluminum takes on the structural properties of
> cheese? 6061-T6 will eventually return to about the T4 condition=2C but a
t
> best it's much less strong than after proper heat-treating=2C which is
> beyond amateur capabilities. 2024 is generally considered not to be
> weldable. You can stick two pieces together=2C but don't expect them to
> remain that way under stress.
>
> The Honey Bee and Pegasus ultralights=2C with fuselages made of welded
> square aluminum tube=2C only look like they disprove the above. The guy
> who designed them sized the tubing so it would be strong enough for use
> in a small=2C lightly stressed airplane even after welding. Then he made
> sure to keep the heat-affected zone as small as possible.
>
> Considering the above=2C the notion of welding plates onto your struts
> worries me. I believe the usual technique is to bolt a piece of square
> aluminum stock inside the airfoil strut=2C and then bolt through the
> square stock to the strut fittings.
>
> FWIW
>
> Owen
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. |
Keep in mind that you must desing to yeild strength=2C not ultimate. Only
NASA designs to ultimate strength.
Doug Dever
In beautiful Stow Ohio
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> From: bphillip@shentel.net
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach.
> Date: Wed=2C 2 Mar 2011 18:44:16 +0000
>
>
> Michael:
>
> 6061 aluminum has an ultimate tensile strength of 45=2C000 psi in the T6
> condition. The as-welded UTS of material within the heat affected zone ca
n be as
> HIGH as 24-25=2C000 psi if proper procedures are used with strict adheren
ce to
> interpass temperatures. In short=2C it really does turn into bubble gum o
nce it is
> heated. After naturally aging for a long period of time=2C the T4 conditi
on MAY be
> achieved=2C which would give ~40=2C000 psi. I'm an AWS welding inspector
=2C and I like
> bolts for this application.
>
> Brett Phillips
> Strasburg=2C VA
> NX311GP
>
>
> > I was aware of some softening=2C but I did not know to what degree. I k
now some
> use the
> aluminum insert threaded for a fork end=2C there is that option as well.
> >
> > Michael Perez
> >
> > Karetaker Aero
> >
> > www.karetakeraero.com
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using Shentel WebMail.
> http://WebMail.Shentel.Net
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | HINT videos - caveat emptor |
The recent discussions about material substitutions got me thinking.
Michael, you are offering for sale a series of "HINT" videos that cover the construction
of your plane. And you have discussed here on the List some of the changes
that you have incorporated into your particular project. There may be other
changes that you have not shared with the List. As I recall, from your posts,
this is the first aircraft that you have built. I was wondering whether you
make it clear in your videos that the changes you have made are variations
from the plans, and are unproven. I use that word "unproven" because there have
been several times where you have described how you have varied from the plans,
and standard aircraft building practices or engineering advice. Based on those
criteria, many of your changes will really remain unproven until they have
been demonstrated to work in actual flight conditions and stand the test of
time.
I just can't help but wonder about the sensibility of offering "instructional"
videos documenting a number of changes that are not backed up by technical data
and/or practical aircraft building experience. Your website states that you
give reasons for the changes that you made, and the processes used, but do you
provide any science or data to back up your new designs? Luckily, you are not
offering plans for any of your changes.
Hopefully anyone purchasing your videos is aware of the situation, and is using
them for entertainment purposes only.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332520#332520
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor |
Hear Hear!
--------
Mark Chouinard
Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332523#332523
Message 20
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| Subject: | Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. |
ABSOLUTELY!
Brett
>
> Keep in mind that you must desing to yeild strength, not ultimate. Only
> NASA designs to ultimate strength.
>
> Doug Dever
> In beautiful Stow Ohio
---------------------------------------------
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Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. |
Hey, this conversation sounds familiar...
Oh, I know why.
See this thread from a few years ago:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=46368
Let's see, 40 percent reduction from 45000 would be about 27000 - yup, looks like
the science hasn't changed in the last three years.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332532#332532
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. |
Your "words", and your "numbers".....stop pissing on the Snowflake Parade!
Ryan
do not archive
On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 2:22 PM, Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> billspiet@sympatico.ca>
>
> Hey, this conversation sounds familiar...
> Oh, I know why.
> See this thread from a few years ago:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=46368
>
> Let's see, 40 percent reduction from 45000 would be about 27000 - yup,
> looks like the science hasn't changed in the last three years.
>
> Bill C.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332532#332532
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. |
That's it... I'm scrapping my control horns. :(
--------
Mark Chouinard
Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332548#332548
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. |
No guts, no glorious funeral... ;)
do not archive
On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 4:25 PM, K5YAC <hangar10@cox.net> wrote:
>
> That's it... I'm scrapping my control horns. :(
>
> --------
> Mark Chouinard
> Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332548#332548
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor |
Yes Bill. The videos are more of a video log of my building process and not
so much- instructional videos. I should be more clear about that on the
website...thanks for the heads up.
Michael Perez
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
-
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor |
Hey guys, how about getting Michael to come to brodhead and giving a forum
on how to reinvent the wheel. I am happy with how my plane flies and handle
s. Another subject--- anyone- out there interested in having a rendevoux
at TRIPPLE TREE AERODROME to their fly in the week after Labor Day? I plan
on going as it looks like a very neat place to camp out. It is just SE of F
ountain Inn SC
--- On Wed, 3/2/11, Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: HINT videos - caveat emptor
=0A=0A=0A=0AYes Bill. The videos are more of a video log of my building pro
cess and not so much- instructional videos. I should be more clear about
that on the website...thanks for the heads up.
Michael Perez
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
=0A=0A-=0A
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor |
Gardiner,
Could you please provide me with some real world analytical numbers as to
why that wheel must be round, and the forces on it when it rolls? I'd like
to make mine triangular, unless you can give me a good reason not
too....well.....strike that...I'm making them triangular. ;)
do not archive
On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 5:09 PM, airlion <airlion@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Hey guys, how about getting Michael to come to brodhead and giving a forum
> on how to reinvent the wheel. I am happy with how my plane flies and
> handles. Another subject--- anyone out there interested in having a
> rendevoux at TRIPPLE TREE AERODROME to their fly in the week after Labor
> Day? I plan on going as it looks like a very neat place to camp out. It is
> just SE of Fountain Inn SC
>
> --- On *Wed, 3/2/11, Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: HINT videos - caveat emptor
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Date: Wednesday, March 2, 2011, 5:52 PM
>
> Yes Bill. The videos are more of a video log of my building process and
> not so much instructional videos. I should be more clear about that on the
> website...thanks for the heads up.
>
> Michael Perez
> Karetaker Aero
> www.karetakeraero.com
>
>
> *http://www.matronil="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com">http:=======================
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor |
Ryan,
As long as they are made of stainless steel tubing with aluminum reinforcing plates
welded onto the sides, it should not matter if they are round or triangular,
the forces are irrelevant. [Wink]
do not archive
--------
Billy McCaskill
Urbana, IL
tail section almost done, starting on ribs soon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332569#332569
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor |
Forces, schmorces.....how unique is it? ;)
do not archive
On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Billy McCaskill <billmz@cox.net> wrote:
>
> Ryan,
>
> As long as they are made of stainless steel tubing with aluminum
> reinforcing plates welded onto the sides, it should not matter if they are
> round or triangular, the forces are irrelevant. [Wink]
>
> do not archive
>
> --------
> Billy McCaskill
> Urbana, IL
> tail section almost done, starting on ribs soon
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332569#332569
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | with all the fuss-- |
I would just like to say that the plans specifically call out that the rudder bar
be made from 4130. What you or anyone else uses is up to him or her. That
is the beauty of homebuilding
in the United States of America. If you lived in jolly old England you would
have to go thru the PFA for such a material substitution and would have to prove
that this was an acceptable
substitution and THEY would have to determine if that was in fact acceptable or
not. Thank GOD for the good old USA and our freedoms here but freedoms come
with RESPONSIBILITIES
and no matter what you choose to fabricate your plane with you must keep in mind
that when you are giving Young Eagle Rides to someones''s child, grandchild,
cousin, niece, or nephew
that your mount is sound, airworthy, and built to the BEST OF ACCEPTABLE aircraft-grade
quality materials and construction methods......otherwise you have NO
business giving a ride to
even your EX wife and I mean that seriously.
As you all know I work with Michael Perez here at NASA and was the one who sparked
his interest in Pietenpol building and let me be the first to say that Mike
is a FAA Qualified, Certified FAA
Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic. Mike is a top-notch machinist and I would
be remiss if I failed to mention the great attention to detail and his meticulous
workmanship on all parts of the
airplane so in that regard I certainly give Mike the highest respect as far as
his skills and abilities to build anything from a baby stroller to a robotic actuator
for NASA........but there are proven
and well-guided methods and materials laid out all over the place for scratch building
a homebuilt airplane and we all can do as we please but we are talking
about an 82 year old design that
has proven itself beyond reproach. My only submission to all of you is that when
you take a proven 82 year old design and change stuff....you are now testing
a ZERO year old design and you become
not an 82 year old design test pilot or passenger but you take on the responsibility
of becoming not only your OWN designer but your OWN test pilot. Sounds
picky ? How many have died on first
test flights ? Thousands. How many have died on first flights because they
thought they had a better idea or wanted to be different or improve the wheel....don't
know and there is where you
walk alone--you take that walk with calculated (hopefully) risks and the FAA and
USA allow you to do so which is just a great freedom we have but you deviate...you
takes yer chances.
Here's a perfect example. There are many, many innovative and wonderful ideas
that the French Valley, CA EAA Chapter 1279 (Steve Williamson, President) have
incorporated into their GORGEOUS
bare framed Pietenpol that they so graciously displayed last year at both Brodhead
and Oshkosh for all to see and let me say that I walked around that airplane
for at least an hour snapping photos
of the VERY well engineered and thought out modifications they incorporated into
that basic Pietenpol design and was very impressed. This is not to knock some
new ideas, this is not meant to hurt
feelings but the goal of our group (in my mind) is to pass along the BEST of the
BEST of innovations to the original Pietenpol design and to go forth with some
good, proven designs.
Why else would we copy Simon McCormack or Larry William's gorgeous band-brake setup
? Because it has PROVEN to be worthy of copying ! I gladly incorporated
many little mods that others made
that I liked but NONE of them altered the control system for the flight controls
and that is the fly in the ointment here. If you're going to re-shape your
wingtips fine....if you're going to make your seat lower or higher fine....if
you're going to add 2 feet to the wings fine......if you're going to use 18
inch instead of 21 inch wire wheels fine or raise the turtle deck 2" fine....but
venturing off into the weeds with critical, essential flight control systems
and designs creates new risks, new chances for unexpected surprises and perhaps
might even pose some tense moments when your design is put to the test in
the air in turbulence and vibrations over a suburb of Chicago enroute to Oshkosh....even
worse yet if you have a loved one in the front pit.
My attitude is let's share and incorporate the BEST of the BEST and pass that along
to each other----it is the individual builder's choice to deviate from that
or stick to it. You takes yer chances.
Mike C.
________________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]
On Behalf Of Billy McCaskill [billmz@cox.net]
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 6:23 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor
Ryan,
As long as they are made of stainless steel tubing with aluminum reinforcing plates
welded onto the sides, it should not matter if they are round or triangular,
the forces are irrelevant. [Wink]
do not archive
--------
Billy McCaskill
Urbana, IL
tail section almost done, starting on ribs soon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332569#332569
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor |
Ryan, is a round shape stronger than a triangular one? I am not smart enoug
h to figure that out.- I will leave that to Bernies plans which I liked.
How about TRIPPLE TREE ? Gardiner
--- On Wed, 3/2/11, Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: HINT videos - caveat emptor
Gardiner,
Could you please provide me with some real world analytical numbers as to w
hy that wheel must be round, and the forces on it when it rolls? I'd like t
o make mine triangular, unless you can give me a good reason not too....wel
l.....strike that...I'm making them triangular. -;)=0A
do not archive
On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 5:09 PM, airlion <airlion@bellsouth.net> wrote:
=0AHey guys, how about getting Michael to come to brodhead and giving a for
um on how to reinvent the wheel. I am happy with how my plane flies and han
dles. Another subject--- anyone- out there interested in having a rendevo
ux at TRIPPLE TREE AERODROME to their fly in the week after Labor Day? I pl
an on going as it looks like a very neat place to camp out. It is just SE o
f Fountain Inn SC
=0A
--- On Wed, 3/2/11, Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
=0A
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: HINT videos - caveat emptor
=0ADate: Wednesday, March 2, 2011, 5:52 PM
=0A=0A=0A=0AYes Bill. The videos are more of a video log of my building pro
cess and not so much- instructional videos. I should be more clear about
that on the website...thanks for the heads up.
=0A
Michael Perez
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
=0A=0A-=0Ahttp://www.matronil="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http
://forums.matronics.com">http:===============
========
=0A
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=0A=0A
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: with all the fuss-- |
I had an even better Idea to save weight and un-complicate the rudder bar.
- I am thinking of just putting stirups on the ends of the rudder cables,
strap them directly to my feet with some leather staps, and a buckle, I wo
uld have a very good feel for the rudder that way, -that should be good..
.....................right.
-
-
Just Kidding Y'all,
-
Shad=0A=0A=0A
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: with all the fuss-- |
Mike,
Thank you for that elegant reply. I followed the rudder bar thread yesterday and
was concerned that things were getting a little testy. This forum is so much
more civil than some I have followed, and left.
I think it is important that you pointed out Mike Perez's background. There is
no substitute for actual hands on experience, feeling the materials and knowing
their limitations. This forum represents a lot of talent. I know because
I have seen some of the flying examples up close.
Jon Coxwell
--------
Jon Coxwell
GN-1 Builder
Recycle and preserve the planet
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332582#332582
Message 34
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| Subject: | Oscar's articles |
Oscar,
I just read your engine article in Sport Aviation. I had previously read it
in Contact, but again thoroughly enjoyed it in SA. Congratulations on a
well-crafted piece.
Jeff
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