Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Wed 03/02/11


Total Messages Posted: 34



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 02:26 AM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (CLIF DAWSON)
     2. 03:46 AM - Re: Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea? (helspersew@aol.com)
     3. 04:31 AM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Gene Rambo)
     4. 05:37 AM - Re: what to use and what to fly with comfortably--an ongoing discussion (Michael Perez)
     5. 05:40 AM - Re: you make your choices---you take your chances (Michael Perez)
     6. 05:55 AM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Michael Perez)
     7. 06:09 AM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (james theissen)
     8. 06:27 AM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Scott Knowlton)
     9. 06:30 AM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Gboothe5)
    10. 06:42 AM - Re: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls (Michael Perez)
    11. 07:02 AM - Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea? (Brett Phillips)
    12. 08:08 AM - Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. (Michael Perez)
    13. 08:37 AM - Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. (Owen Davies)
    14. 09:40 AM - Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. (Michael Perez)
    15. 10:46 AM - Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. (bphillip@shentel.net)
    16. 11:09 AM - Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. (Doug Dever)
    17. 11:11 AM - Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. (Doug Dever)
    18. 11:11 AM - HINT videos - caveat emptor (Bill Church)
    19. 11:32 AM - Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor (K5YAC)
    20. 11:37 AM - Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. (bphillip@shentel.net)
    21. 12:25 PM - Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. (Bill Church)
    22. 12:35 PM - Re: Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. (Ryan Mueller)
    23. 02:28 PM - Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. (K5YAC)
    24. 02:44 PM - Re: Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. (Ryan Mueller)
    25. 02:54 PM - Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor (Michael Perez)
    26. 03:11 PM - Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor (airlion)
    27. 04:00 PM - Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor (Ryan Mueller)
    28. 04:26 PM - Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor (Billy McCaskill)
    29. 04:37 PM - Re: Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor (Ryan Mueller)
    30. 05:02 PM - with all the fuss-- (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP])
    31. 06:05 PM - Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor (airlion)
    32. 06:43 PM - Re: with all the fuss-- (shad bell)
    33. 07:08 PM - Re: with all the fuss-- (coxwelljon)
    34. 07:45 PM - Oscar's articles (Earnest Bunbury)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 02:26:57 AM PST US
    From: CLIF DAWSON <cdawson5854@shaw.ca>
    Subject: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
    That must be why I have TWO rudder bars! :-) Clif .What you need to be aware of is the potential for the > pilot to bend the rudder bar, by inadvertently pushing with both > feet. The pilot will undoubtedly have both feet pressing against > the rudder bar at all times, and a bit of uncoordinated > footwork, or panic can result in an excessive amount of pushing > on both sides of the rudder bar at the same time. > > Bill C.


    Message 2


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    Time: 03:46:26 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea?
    From: helspersew@aol.com
    Hi Brett, That plug fouling thing has some merit. I had not thought of that aspect. I am not sure if I want to sell that side mount mag set-up, until things pan out. Thanks for your input. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. -----Original Message----- From: Brett Phillips <bphillip@shentel.net> Sent: Tue, Mar 1, 2011 9:10 pm Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea? t> Dan: ould you be interested in selling your side mounted magneto setup? I might be nterested if it is available. I've followed your troubles on the list, and I hink the gear driven mag could be made to be very reliable with careful set up f gear mesh. I would be concerned that a standby ignition system that is urned off most of the time would suffer from fouled plugs. Brett Phillips trasburg, VA X311GP ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332443#332443 -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -========================


    Message 3


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    Time: 04:31:56 AM PST US
    From: Gene Rambo <generambo@msn.com>
    Subject: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
    Every single person on here=2C most with a LOT of experience=2C have said i t is a bad idea. If you are going to do it anyway=2C enough with the justi fications and somewhat insulting remarks. Just do it and let's move on. Gene Rambo From: speedbrake@sbcglobal.net Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls ..." 'may' work fine for years and years but then again may not." That is true for any part of any plane...your spreader bar as an example. Comparing spreader bars to rudder bars is not a good comparison. Spreader b ars are under stress all the time...pushing back on the tension from the f our 1/8" L.G. cables. The rudder bar is only under stress while someone is in the pilot seat. How about those forces? Four 1/8" cables trying to comp ress the spreader bars=2C (how tight are those?)compared to...I don't know. .. two heavy feet on the rudder bar? Then there are the forces on the sprea ders when actually making a landing...and I would venture a guess=2C a few HARD landings. I just don't see a comparison here. Different regions of the plane=2C way different forces. You used SS tube. You smashed the ends flat. (Induced stress=2C maybe cold worked as well.) Then you bent those smashed ends. ( More stress) Curious.. .You know when you smash the ends=2C those really=2C really tight bends tha t allow the two sides of the tube to come together=2C aren't those bends IN LINE with the grain? At some point=2C you put a 1/4" hole in that smashed =2C bent end as well and yet got 13 years out of it! What did you replace your spreader bars with? I believe you said you used a heavier wall S.S. t ube...yes? I believe you also said that if you have to replace them every 1 3 years or so=2C that's cool. Your story about the broken bar=2C loved one in the plane=2C tall trees=2C fuel=2C hot exhaust=2C etc. is entertaining but nothing more then a "what i f." Your spreader bar COULD have let go at altitude=2C smashing through t he windshield of a school bus full of kids on the high way=2C killing the d river=2C the bus crosses over to in on-coming traffic=2C smashing another s chool bus head on=2C killing everyone in both buses=2C plus the surrounding vehicles that could not get out of the way in time. Then as you make an un expected hard landing=2C your gear folds on one side=2C the wing tip drags. .. then starts the cartwheel... you get my drift. I believe that the 3/16" clevis pins are NOT going to pull through the smas hed ends of the now .065" wall stainless. I would also bet that there won' t be enough stress to have that 5/16" bolt at the pivot pull through the en tire length of the sleeve and .035" wall tube. (3/4" tube) I guess it is po ssible that the bar could bend if I were to freak out and press to hard on both ends. I guess that is something to be aware of...no more then being a ware to make sure the fuel cap is on right. "...cheaping out"... Saving a few bucks is not the point. Not sure why ever y time a change is made people assume it is money related. You are correct about the placard...that says it all. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com


    Message 4


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    Time: 05:37:55 AM PST US
    From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: what to use and what to fly with comfortably--an ongoing
    discussion Understood. I had reached that same conclusion Mike, no need for anyone else to get into the pilot seat of my plane. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com


    Message 5


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    Time: 05:40:10 AM PST US
    From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: you make your choices---you take your chances
    Noted and I concur. Period. Michael Perez =0AKaretaker Aero =0Awww.karetakeraero.com --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP] <michae l.d.cuy@nasa.gov> wrote: From: Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP] <michael.d.cuy@nasa.g ov> Subject: Pietenpol-List: you make your choices---you take your chances SPACE CORP]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov> Mike-- I'm not here to debate the stresses of the spreader bars vs. the rud der bar, all I am saying is that with such a PRIMARY control you should reconsider using non-4130 grade tubing for your rudder bar but hey.. ..that's the beauty of homebuilding---you can use whatever you want... just count me out as ever being your test pilot or passenger.- Period.- --As long as YOU feel comfortable with your choices then YOU can do the test flying. Mike C. NX48MC le, List Admin.


    Message 6


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    Time: 05:55:48 AM PST US
    From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
    I agree there are people here who actually know what they are talking about .-- As I have said I appreciate the comments and concerns by most here and I do think and rethink my position after reading such posts. I DO NOT a ppreciate the soap opera story telling just to suit ones own position nor t he degrading name calling.- I want to use SS here because that is what I want. I feel that even after reading these posts, knowing what material I u sed, how it was assembled and how it will be installed, I am comfortable us ing it as my rudder bar. I will keep an eye on it as with the rest of the p lane. True, the ends are squeezed and drilled, but they are not bent and I still feel the landing gear sees more abuse then a rudder bar. Mike got 13 years out of that bar, I bet I will get at least that out of my rudder bar. Seems most feel that a rudder failure of some sort is a death sentence. Rea lly? Is it imposable to make a landing without a rudder? I would rather not argue, but at times I feel some people just throw out wo rds, numbers and stories that are not true. Michael Perez =0AKaretaker Aero =0Awww.karetakeraero.com


    Message 7


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    Time: 06:09:58 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
    From: james theissen <heavyliftpilot@gmail.com>
    Hi, i'm new to this site, but not new to the field of aviation. I've been an army pilot for over 14 years, and flew many combat hours in Afghanistan. I"ve been following this thread, and i think i should throw in my two cents, so here it goes, If it calls it out in the prints, there's probably a good reason for it. Hey, if your going to subsitute Aircraft grade 4130 for SS, you might as well use yellow pine instead of spruce for the fuselage and spars too! Don't fly over southeast georgia. thanks. jt On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 8:52 AM, Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>wrote: > I agree there are people here who actually know what they are talking > about. As I have said I appreciate the comments and concerns by most here > and I do think and rethink my position after reading such posts. I DO NOT > appreciate the soap opera story telling just to suit ones own position nor > the degrading name calling. I want to use SS here because that is what I > want. I feel that even after reading these posts, knowing what material I > used, how it was assembled and how it will be installed, I am comfortable > using it as my rudder bar. I will keep an eye on it as with the rest of the > plane. > > True, the ends are squeezed and drilled, but they are not bent and I still > feel the landing gear sees more abuse then a rudder bar. Mike got 13 years > out of that bar, I bet I will get at least that out of my rudder bar. > > Seems most feel that a rudder failure of some sort is a death sentence. > Really? Is it imposable to make a landing without a rudder? > > I would rather not argue, but at times I feel some people just throw out > words, numbers and stories that are not true. > > Michael Perez > Karetaker Aero > www.karetakeraero.com > > * > > * > >


    Message 8


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    Time: 06:27:22 AM PST US
    From: "Scott Knowlton " <flyingscott_k@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
    12,000 hours of experience tells me I would not want to lose my rudder control. Aileron, pitch, power and trim can all be dealt with. No rudder on a tailwheel aircraft? The best one can hope for is a violent ground loop on landing. Try your next approach with your feet on the floor through touch down and roll out. Let me know how it works out. Scott Knowlton -----Original Message----- From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls I agree there are people here who actually know what they are talking about. As I have said I appreciate the comments and concerns by most here and I do think and rethink my position after reading such posts. I DO NOT appreciate the soap opera story telling just to suit ones own position nor the degrading name calling. I want to use SS here because that is what I want. I feel that even after reading these posts, knowing what material I used, how it was assembled and how it will be installed, I am comfortable using it as my rudder bar. I will keep an eye on it as with the rest of the plane. True, the ends are squeezed and drilled, but they are not bent and I still feel the landing gear sees more abuse then a rudder bar. Mike got 13 years out of that bar, I bet I will get at least that out of my rudder bar. Seems most feel that a rudder failure of some sort is a death sentence. Really? Is it imposable to make a landing without a rudder? I would rather not argue, but at times I feel some people just throw out words, numbers and stories that are not true. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com


    Message 9


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    Time: 06:30:17 AM PST US
    From: "Gboothe5" <gboothe5@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
    Interesting.I just Googled, "Aircraft Stainless Steel Failures.".quite a bit of reading. Gary Boothe


    Message 10


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    Time: 06:42:08 AM PST US
    From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: Rudder bar and forward controls
    Billy, no toe stepping felt here. Like the old saying, "It's not what you s ay, it's how you say it."- I'll answer your post in order of questions. I have about an hour or so tail wheel time. No landings and No take offs. I have about 20 min. of on ground slow taxi practice. (basically no time) -I disagree on the rudder being the single most important control. "...hardly be recognizable as a Piet." That sounds like one of those over t he top, no merit stories. Sure I have made changes...who hasn't? Most cosme tic, but none changes the overall look of the plane. My rudder bar still lo oks like a rudder bar. The fuselage, gear, wings, tail..all Pietenpol. Not sure where this idea of not being recognized comes from. I mainly ask questions to see if anyone else has tried, or knows someone wh o has tried, the same thing. However, I did not ask if my rudder bar is OK to change.- It was brought up by another person from another post. If som eone could HONESTLY tell me that a SS rudder bar has failed in a Pietenpol, I would reconsider. ..."These people offer their opinions and ideas based on practical experien ce..."- Not always true. Most of the time yes, but not always. Sure, the plane as drawn works fine. People have made changes over the year s and I bet most of those were frowned upon at first. I understand the gene ral concern here, but it seems that if a persons plane is not built to the plans, not built the way others have already done it or not built to the li king of everyone else, then there is a big upheaval. ..." I think it's a lot better to play the what-if game BEFORE something go es wrong..." Your assuming something is going to go wrong. However, I agree with this statement, so I ask the questions you may find strange on this l ist. But when I do, the upheaval begins. It's difficult to inquire about "a lternatives" knowing your going to get hammered for it. But I do so anyway, because I want to know..not to start a fight. ""What if I had only used 4130 for that rudder bar, then my plane might =0A not be a pile of burning rags, splinters and inferior stainless tubing =0Ai n that smoking hole in the weeds next to the runway." Good story, here's another: After countless hours of flight time, bad weather, bad landings, crosswind landings and panicked feet, the SS rudder bar has performed flawless to thi s day and will continue to do so for many, many years to come. "... doesn't need massive re-engineering." Agreed. To some, my changes may be considered mass re-engineering, but I believe that may be a little extre me. I do not consider the changes massive. All in all I have read all the comments and I have a decision to make about the rudder bar. My apologies to those who do not agree, and get upset. Michael Perez =0AKaretaker Aero =0Awww.karetakeraero.com -


    Message 11


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    Time: 07:02:07 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Slow list day.........How about this idea?
    From: "Brett Phillips" <bphillip@shentel.net>
    I'm glad to hear that you haven't completely given up on the side drive. Keep in mind that you could always find a WICO model X that plugs into the distributor hole. They are not the prettiest thing in the world but as the old folks used to say, "Pretty is as Pretty does". They turn up on Ebay frequently, and parts are available from Standard Magneto Sales in Chicago. Brett Phillips Strasburg, VA NX311GP Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332490#332490


    Message 12


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    Time: 08:08:42 AM PST US
    From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach.
    If memory servers, the plans show the steel wing strut being bolted directly to the fuselage fitting. The strut slips over the fitting and gets bolted through with a single 5/16" bolt. I would like to use that same attaching method with my aluminum strut. My plan is to weld onto the aluminum strut, aluminum plates to beef up the bolt hole area. My question is how thick do these plates need to be and how large? (area over the strut) If you go to the West Coast Piet. site, Jim Markle's pictures, page 4, second to last picture, you will see what I mean. The difference being that I plan to bolt directly to the fitting..no straps. My math: 1/4" plate X2 plus the .119" wall of the tube = .25(2) + .119"(2) = .738" .469" edge spacing X .738 = .346" sq. .346"sq. X 11,600PSI (shear for the strut tube) = 4,013 lbs. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com


    Message 13


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    Time: 08:37:00 AM PST US
    From: Owen Davies <owen5819@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach.
    On 3/2/2011 11:05 AM, Michael Perez wrote: > My plan is to weld onto the aluminum strut, aluminum plates to beef up the bolt hole area. You do know that welded aluminum takes on the structural properties of cheese? 6061-T6 will eventually return to about the T4 condition, but at best it's much less strong than after proper heat-treating, which is beyond amateur capabilities. 2024 is generally considered not to be weldable. You can stick two pieces together, but don't expect them to remain that way under stress. The Honey Bee and Pegasus ultralights, with fuselages made of welded square aluminum tube, only look like they disprove the above. The guy who designed them sized the tubing so it would be strong enough for use in a small, lightly stressed airplane even after welding. Then he made sure to keep the heat-affected zone as small as possible. Considering the above, the notion of welding plates onto your struts worries me. I believe the usual technique is to bolt a piece of square aluminum stock inside the airfoil strut, and then bolt through the square stock to the strut fittings. FWIW Owen


    Message 14


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    Time: 09:40:21 AM PST US
    From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach.
    I was aware of some softening, but I did not know to what degree. I know some use the aluminum insert threaded for a fork end, there is that option as well. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com


    Message 15


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    Time: 10:46:54 AM PST US
    From: bphillip@shentel.net
    Subject: Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach.
    Michael: 6061 aluminum has an ultimate tensile strength of 45,000 psi in the T6 condition. The as-welded UTS of material within the heat affected zone can be as HIGH as 24-25,000 psi if proper procedures are used with strict adherence to interpass temperatures. In short, it really does turn into bubble gum once it is heated. After naturally aging for a long period of time, the T4 condition MAY be achieved, which would give ~40,000 psi. I'm an AWS welding inspector, and I like bolts for this application. Brett Phillips Strasburg, VA NX311GP > I was aware of some softening, but I did not know to what degree. I know some use the aluminum insert threaded for a fork end, there is that option as well. > > Michael Perez > > Karetaker Aero > > www.karetakeraero.com > > --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Shentel WebMail. http://WebMail.Shentel.Net


    Message 16


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    Time: 11:09:29 AM PST US
    From: Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach.
    Thats the way all float fittings are done-bolted. I would not weld anythin g aluminum that is structural. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio > Date: Wed=2C 2 Mar 2011 11:33:27 -0500 > From: owen5819@comcast.net > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. > > > On 3/2/2011 11:05 AM=2C Michael Perez wrote: > > > My plan is to weld onto the aluminum strut=2C aluminum plates to beef > up the bolt hole area. > > You do know that welded aluminum takes on the structural properties of > cheese? 6061-T6 will eventually return to about the T4 condition=2C but a t > best it's much less strong than after proper heat-treating=2C which is > beyond amateur capabilities. 2024 is generally considered not to be > weldable. You can stick two pieces together=2C but don't expect them to > remain that way under stress. > > The Honey Bee and Pegasus ultralights=2C with fuselages made of welded > square aluminum tube=2C only look like they disprove the above. The guy > who designed them sized the tubing so it would be strong enough for use > in a small=2C lightly stressed airplane even after welding. Then he made > sure to keep the heat-affected zone as small as possible. > > Considering the above=2C the notion of welding plates onto your struts > worries me. I believe the usual technique is to bolt a piece of square > aluminum stock inside the airfoil strut=2C and then bolt through the > square stock to the strut fittings. > > FWIW > > Owen > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > >


    Message 17


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    Time: 11:11:33 AM PST US
    From: Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach.
    Keep in mind that you must desing to yeild strength=2C not ultimate. Only NASA designs to ultimate strength. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > From: bphillip@shentel.net > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach. > Date: Wed=2C 2 Mar 2011 18:44:16 +0000 > > > Michael: > > 6061 aluminum has an ultimate tensile strength of 45=2C000 psi in the T6 > condition. The as-welded UTS of material within the heat affected zone ca n be as > HIGH as 24-25=2C000 psi if proper procedures are used with strict adheren ce to > interpass temperatures. In short=2C it really does turn into bubble gum o nce it is > heated. After naturally aging for a long period of time=2C the T4 conditi on MAY be > achieved=2C which would give ~40=2C000 psi. I'm an AWS welding inspector =2C and I like > bolts for this application. > > Brett Phillips > Strasburg=2C VA > NX311GP > > > > I was aware of some softening=2C but I did not know to what degree. I k now some > use the > aluminum insert threaded for a fork end=2C there is that option as well. > > > > Michael Perez > > > > Karetaker Aero > > > > www.karetakeraero.com > > > > > > --------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using Shentel WebMail. > http://WebMail.Shentel.Net > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > >


    Message 18


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    Time: 11:11:35 AM PST US
    Subject: HINT videos - caveat emptor
    From: "Bill Church" <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
    The recent discussions about material substitutions got me thinking. Michael, you are offering for sale a series of "HINT" videos that cover the construction of your plane. And you have discussed here on the List some of the changes that you have incorporated into your particular project. There may be other changes that you have not shared with the List. As I recall, from your posts, this is the first aircraft that you have built. I was wondering whether you make it clear in your videos that the changes you have made are variations from the plans, and are unproven. I use that word "unproven" because there have been several times where you have described how you have varied from the plans, and standard aircraft building practices or engineering advice. Based on those criteria, many of your changes will really remain unproven until they have been demonstrated to work in actual flight conditions and stand the test of time. I just can't help but wonder about the sensibility of offering "instructional" videos documenting a number of changes that are not backed up by technical data and/or practical aircraft building experience. Your website states that you give reasons for the changes that you made, and the processes used, but do you provide any science or data to back up your new designs? Luckily, you are not offering plans for any of your changes. Hopefully anyone purchasing your videos is aware of the situation, and is using them for entertainment purposes only. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332520#332520


    Message 19


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    Time: 11:32:11 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor
    From: "K5YAC" <hangar10@cox.net>
    Hear Hear! -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332523#332523


    Message 20


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    Time: 11:37:06 AM PST US
    From: bphillip@shentel.net
    Subject: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach.
    ABSOLUTELY! Brett > > Keep in mind that you must desing to yeild strength, not ultimate. Only > NASA designs to ultimate strength. > > Doug Dever > In beautiful Stow Ohio --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Shentel WebMail. http://WebMail.Shentel.Net


    Message 21


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    Time: 12:25:05 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach.
    From: "Bill Church" <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
    Hey, this conversation sounds familiar... Oh, I know why. See this thread from a few years ago: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=46368 Let's see, 40 percent reduction from 45000 would be about 27000 - yup, looks like the science hasn't changed in the last three years. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332532#332532


    Message 22


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    Time: 12:35:45 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach.
    From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com>
    Your "words", and your "numbers".....stop pissing on the Snowflake Parade! Ryan do not archive On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 2:22 PM, Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca> wrote: > billspiet@sympatico.ca> > > Hey, this conversation sounds familiar... > Oh, I know why. > See this thread from a few years ago: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=46368 > > Let's see, 40 percent reduction from 45000 would be about 27000 - yup, > looks like the science hasn't changed in the last three years. > > Bill C. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332532#332532 > >


    Message 23


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    Time: 02:28:07 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach.
    From: "K5YAC" <hangar10@cox.net>
    That's it... I'm scrapping my control horns. :( -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332548#332548


    Message 24


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    Time: 02:44:31 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Wing Strut Fuse. Attach.
    From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com>
    No guts, no glorious funeral... ;) do not archive On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 4:25 PM, K5YAC <hangar10@cox.net> wrote: > > That's it... I'm scrapping my control horns. :( > > -------- > Mark Chouinard > Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332548#332548 > >


    Message 25


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    Time: 02:54:48 PM PST US
    From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor
    Yes Bill. The videos are more of a video log of my building process and not so much- instructional videos. I should be more clear about that on the website...thanks for the heads up. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com -


    Message 26


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    Time: 03:11:46 PM PST US
    From: airlion <airlion@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor
    Hey guys, how about getting Michael to come to brodhead and giving a forum on how to reinvent the wheel. I am happy with how my plane flies and handle s. Another subject--- anyone- out there interested in having a rendevoux at TRIPPLE TREE AERODROME to their fly in the week after Labor Day? I plan on going as it looks like a very neat place to camp out. It is just SE of F ountain Inn SC --- On Wed, 3/2/11, Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net> wrote: From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: HINT videos - caveat emptor =0A=0A=0A=0AYes Bill. The videos are more of a video log of my building pro cess and not so much- instructional videos. I should be more clear about that on the website...thanks for the heads up. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com =0A=0A-=0A


    Message 27


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    Time: 04:00:54 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor
    From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com>
    Gardiner, Could you please provide me with some real world analytical numbers as to why that wheel must be round, and the forces on it when it rolls? I'd like to make mine triangular, unless you can give me a good reason not too....well.....strike that...I'm making them triangular. ;) do not archive On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 5:09 PM, airlion <airlion@bellsouth.net> wrote: > Hey guys, how about getting Michael to come to brodhead and giving a forum > on how to reinvent the wheel. I am happy with how my plane flies and > handles. Another subject--- anyone out there interested in having a > rendevoux at TRIPPLE TREE AERODROME to their fly in the week after Labor > Day? I plan on going as it looks like a very neat place to camp out. It is > just SE of Fountain Inn SC > > --- On *Wed, 3/2/11, Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>* wrote: > > > From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: HINT videos - caveat emptor > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, March 2, 2011, 5:52 PM > > Yes Bill. The videos are more of a video log of my building process and > not so much instructional videos. I should be more clear about that on the > website...thanks for the heads up. > > Michael Perez > Karetaker Aero > www.karetakeraero.com > > > *http://www.matronil="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com">http:======================= > * > > * > > * > >


    Message 28


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    Time: 04:26:35 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor
    From: "Billy McCaskill" <billmz@cox.net>
    Ryan, As long as they are made of stainless steel tubing with aluminum reinforcing plates welded onto the sides, it should not matter if they are round or triangular, the forces are irrelevant. [Wink] do not archive -------- Billy McCaskill Urbana, IL tail section almost done, starting on ribs soon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332569#332569


    Message 29


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    Time: 04:37:41 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor
    From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com>
    Forces, schmorces.....how unique is it? ;) do not archive On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Billy McCaskill <billmz@cox.net> wrote: > > Ryan, > > As long as they are made of stainless steel tubing with aluminum > reinforcing plates welded onto the sides, it should not matter if they are > round or triangular, the forces are irrelevant. [Wink] > > do not archive > > -------- > Billy McCaskill > Urbana, IL > tail section almost done, starting on ribs soon > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332569#332569 > >


    Message 30


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    Time: 05:02:11 PM PST US
    From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
    Subject: with all the fuss--
    I would just like to say that the plans specifically call out that the rudder bar be made from 4130. What you or anyone else uses is up to him or her. That is the beauty of homebuilding in the United States of America. If you lived in jolly old England you would have to go thru the PFA for such a material substitution and would have to prove that this was an acceptable substitution and THEY would have to determine if that was in fact acceptable or not. Thank GOD for the good old USA and our freedoms here but freedoms come with RESPONSIBILITIES and no matter what you choose to fabricate your plane with you must keep in mind that when you are giving Young Eagle Rides to someones''s child, grandchild, cousin, niece, or nephew that your mount is sound, airworthy, and built to the BEST OF ACCEPTABLE aircraft-grade quality materials and construction methods......otherwise you have NO business giving a ride to even your EX wife and I mean that seriously. As you all know I work with Michael Perez here at NASA and was the one who sparked his interest in Pietenpol building and let me be the first to say that Mike is a FAA Qualified, Certified FAA Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic. Mike is a top-notch machinist and I would be remiss if I failed to mention the great attention to detail and his meticulous workmanship on all parts of the airplane so in that regard I certainly give Mike the highest respect as far as his skills and abilities to build anything from a baby stroller to a robotic actuator for NASA........but there are proven and well-guided methods and materials laid out all over the place for scratch building a homebuilt airplane and we all can do as we please but we are talking about an 82 year old design that has proven itself beyond reproach. My only submission to all of you is that when you take a proven 82 year old design and change stuff....you are now testing a ZERO year old design and you become not an 82 year old design test pilot or passenger but you take on the responsibility of becoming not only your OWN designer but your OWN test pilot. Sounds picky ? How many have died on first test flights ? Thousands. How many have died on first flights because they thought they had a better idea or wanted to be different or improve the wheel....don't know and there is where you walk alone--you take that walk with calculated (hopefully) risks and the FAA and USA allow you to do so which is just a great freedom we have but you deviate...you takes yer chances. Here's a perfect example. There are many, many innovative and wonderful ideas that the French Valley, CA EAA Chapter 1279 (Steve Williamson, President) have incorporated into their GORGEOUS bare framed Pietenpol that they so graciously displayed last year at both Brodhead and Oshkosh for all to see and let me say that I walked around that airplane for at least an hour snapping photos of the VERY well engineered and thought out modifications they incorporated into that basic Pietenpol design and was very impressed. This is not to knock some new ideas, this is not meant to hurt feelings but the goal of our group (in my mind) is to pass along the BEST of the BEST of innovations to the original Pietenpol design and to go forth with some good, proven designs. Why else would we copy Simon McCormack or Larry William's gorgeous band-brake setup ? Because it has PROVEN to be worthy of copying ! I gladly incorporated many little mods that others made that I liked but NONE of them altered the control system for the flight controls and that is the fly in the ointment here. If you're going to re-shape your wingtips fine....if you're going to make your seat lower or higher fine....if you're going to add 2 feet to the wings fine......if you're going to use 18 inch instead of 21 inch wire wheels fine or raise the turtle deck 2" fine....but venturing off into the weeds with critical, essential flight control systems and designs creates new risks, new chances for unexpected surprises and perhaps might even pose some tense moments when your design is put to the test in the air in turbulence and vibrations over a suburb of Chicago enroute to Oshkosh....even worse yet if you have a loved one in the front pit. My attitude is let's share and incorporate the BEST of the BEST and pass that along to each other----it is the individual builder's choice to deviate from that or stick to it. You takes yer chances. Mike C. ________________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Billy McCaskill [billmz@cox.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 6:23 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor Ryan, As long as they are made of stainless steel tubing with aluminum reinforcing plates welded onto the sides, it should not matter if they are round or triangular, the forces are irrelevant. [Wink] do not archive -------- Billy McCaskill Urbana, IL tail section almost done, starting on ribs soon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332569#332569


    Message 31


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    Time: 06:05:22 PM PST US
    From: airlion <airlion@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: HINT videos - caveat emptor
    Ryan, is a round shape stronger than a triangular one? I am not smart enoug h to figure that out.- I will leave that to Bernies plans which I liked. How about TRIPPLE TREE ? Gardiner --- On Wed, 3/2/11, Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com> wrote: From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: HINT videos - caveat emptor Gardiner, Could you please provide me with some real world analytical numbers as to w hy that wheel must be round, and the forces on it when it rolls? I'd like t o make mine triangular, unless you can give me a good reason not too....wel l.....strike that...I'm making them triangular. -;)=0A do not archive On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 5:09 PM, airlion <airlion@bellsouth.net> wrote: =0AHey guys, how about getting Michael to come to brodhead and giving a for um on how to reinvent the wheel. I am happy with how my plane flies and han dles. Another subject--- anyone- out there interested in having a rendevo ux at TRIPPLE TREE AERODROME to their fly in the week after Labor Day? I pl an on going as it looks like a very neat place to camp out. It is just SE o f Fountain Inn SC =0A --- On Wed, 3/2/11, Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net> wrote: =0A From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: HINT videos - caveat emptor =0ADate: Wednesday, March 2, 2011, 5:52 PM =0A=0A=0A=0AYes Bill. The videos are more of a video log of my building pro cess and not so much- instructional videos. I should be more clear about that on the website...thanks for the heads up. =0A Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com =0A=0A-=0Ahttp://www.matronil="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http ://forums.matronics.com">http:=============== ======== =0A " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A=0A


    Message 32


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    Time: 06:43:11 PM PST US
    From: shad bell <aviatorbell@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: with all the fuss--
    I had an even better Idea to save weight and un-complicate the rudder bar. - I am thinking of just putting stirups on the ends of the rudder cables, strap them directly to my feet with some leather staps, and a buckle, I wo uld have a very good feel for the rudder that way, -that should be good.. .....................right. - - Just Kidding Y'all, - Shad=0A=0A=0A


    Message 33


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    Time: 07:08:12 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: with all the fuss--
    From: "coxwelljon" <coxwelljon@frontiernet.net>
    Mike, Thank you for that elegant reply. I followed the rudder bar thread yesterday and was concerned that things were getting a little testy. This forum is so much more civil than some I have followed, and left. I think it is important that you pointed out Mike Perez's background. There is no substitute for actual hands on experience, feeling the materials and knowing their limitations. This forum represents a lot of talent. I know because I have seen some of the flying examples up close. Jon Coxwell -------- Jon Coxwell GN-1 Builder Recycle and preserve the planet Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332582#332582


    Message 34


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    Time: 07:45:06 PM PST US
    Subject: Oscar's articles
    From: Earnest Bunbury <ebunburyesq@gmail.com>
    Oscar, I just read your engine article in Sport Aviation. I had previously read it in Contact, but again thoroughly enjoyed it in SA. Congratulations on a well-crafted piece. Jeff




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