---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 03/28/11: 60 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:56 AM - Re: SNF (Jack) 2. 04:30 AM - Almost done (Dangerous Dave) 3. 04:32 AM - Torque Control Tube Location (Jack) 4. 04:51 AM - Re: Visit to John McPherson (Don Emch) 5. 05:04 AM - Re: wings (Don Emch) 6. 05:33 AM - Re: Re: Visit to John McPherson (Gboothe5) 7. 06:11 AM - Re: Re: wings (Charles Campbell) 8. 06:12 AM - Re: Re: wings (Dan Yocum) 9. 07:12 AM - Re: Re: wings (Robert Gow) 10. 07:14 AM - Re: Re: wings (Doug Dever) 11. 07:20 AM - Re: Re: wings (Charles Campbell) 12. 07:32 AM - Re: Re: wings (Tim White) 13. 07:35 AM - Re: Re: wings (Ryan Mueller) 14. 07:49 AM - Re: wings (Bill Church) 15. 08:03 AM - Re: Re: wings (Kip and Beth Gardner) 16. 08:14 AM - Re: Torque Control Tube Location (kevinpurtee) 17. 09:14 AM - Re: Re: wings (Richard Schreiber) 18. 09:15 AM - Re: Torque Control Tube Location (Gboothe5) 19. 10:04 AM - Re: Re: wings (Ken Bickers) 20. 10:05 AM - Re: Re: wings (Ken Bickers) 21. 10:05 AM - Re: Re: wings (Gboothe5) 22. 10:06 AM - Re: Re: wings (Richard Schreiber) 23. 10:12 AM - Re: Re: Torque Control Tube Location (Jack) 24. 10:29 AM - Re: Re: Torque Control Tube Location (Jack) 25. 11:08 AM - Re: Torque Control Tube Location (kevinpurtee) 26. 11:13 AM - Re: Re: wings (Richard Schreiber) 27. 11:15 AM - Re: Re: Torque Control Tube Location (Gboothe5) 28. 11:16 AM - Re: Re: Torque Control Tube Location (Gboothe5) 29. 11:17 AM - Re: Re: wings (Charles Campbell) 30. 11:21 AM - Re: Re: Rounded Seat for Delrin Needle, Stromberg Carb, Conti... (SENTUCHOWS@aol.com) 31. 11:22 AM - Re: Re: wings (Charles Campbell) 32. 11:28 AM - Re: Re: wings (Charles Campbell) 33. 12:32 PM - Re: Progress (Jim Boyer) 34. 12:37 PM - Re: Re: Torque Control Tube Location (Gboothe5) 35. 12:39 PM - Re: Progress (Jim Boyer) 36. 12:55 PM - Re: wings (Don Emch) 37. 01:01 PM - Re: Almost done (Rick Holland) 38. 01:17 PM - Re: Re: wings (Gboothe5) 39. 01:24 PM - Re: Re: wings (Charles Campbell) 40. 01:25 PM - Re: Re: wings (Charles Campbell) 41. 01:28 PM - Re: Re: wings (Charles Campbell) 42. 01:34 PM - Re: wings (jarheadpilot82) 43. 02:01 PM - Re: Progress (Charles Campbell) 44. 02:02 PM - Re: Progress (Charles Campbell) 45. 02:03 PM - Re: Progress (Charles Campbell) 46. 02:04 PM - Re: Re: wings (Ryan Mueller) 47. 02:04 PM - Re: Re: wings (Robert Gow) 48. 02:33 PM - Re: Re: wings (Charles Campbell) 49. 02:33 PM - Re: Re: wings (Charles Campbell) 50. 02:47 PM - Re: Re: wings (Richard Schreiber) 51. 03:03 PM - Re: wings (Don Emch) 52. 04:09 PM - Re: Re: wings (shad bell) 53. 05:13 PM - Re: Sun'n'Fun favor (Dick N) 54. 05:34 PM - Re: Re: wings (Michael Perez) 55. 05:59 PM - Re: Re: Re: Torque Control Tube Location (Jack) 56. 06:31 PM - Re: Re: wings (Charles Campbell) 57. 07:26 PM - Re: Re: wings (Jack Phillips) 58. 08:03 PM - Re: Re: wings (Jack Phillips) 59. 08:06 PM - Re: Re: wings (Chuck Weyant) 60. 09:14 PM - Re: Almost done (Chris) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:56:57 AM PST US From: "Jack" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: SNF Dick, Wish I were there. I commend you for all your hard work that benefits so many! Jack Do not archive _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick N Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 7:45 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: SNF Hey all I'm at SNF with Skip Gadd Dave Aldrich, Randy Henderson and a couple others . There are 4 Piets here so far. We are going to be building a Piet Fuselage at the show, I hope you all will stop by and watch or help. This one is going to be a quick build, so come by early on. I'll post a pic or 2 later. Dick N. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:30:54 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Almost done From: "Dangerous Dave" Not much more to do,should be done here shortly,dave -------- Covering Piet Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335240#335240 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/2011_03_27_07_55_54_338_459.jpg ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:32:14 AM PST US From: "Jack" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Torque Control Tube Location Ready to mount my control assembly. Considering the angle the aileron cables pass through the slot in the panel base up to the center section pulleys. I'm just guessing my wing will be 4 inches aft of perpendicular. (Is this average for a long fuselage, C-85, split gear, heavier than average tail) Can someone help with the calculation of how far the aileron control horn needs to be forward of the slot in the panel base? Assuming a rise of approximately 46" (horn to slot 22" and slot to c-section 24") and wing aft 4" equals having the horn 4" forward the slot?? Not sure I have that much room. Thanks!! Jack DSM ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:51:06 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Visit to John McPherson From: "Don Emch" Those are the unshielded mags, right? I'll have to stop by the hangar later and check on the p-leads on mine. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335241#335241 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:04:20 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings From: "Don Emch" Chuck, Please take these comments as positive, caring, criticism. The way the pictures look the spars do not meet the wood specs that are called for. We do have the liberty to build what we want and basically how we want, but those specs have been called out for a reason. Please check them over. I've built several spars for several airplanes and this is an area that you clearly don't want to use sub par materials. The really cool thing right now is that there doesn't seem to be a shortage of excellent spar quality spruce wood. Probably about $800 will get you excellent spar material from one of the top aircraft suppliers and you'll have it in about 2 weeks. Pretty good for the most important structural part of the airplane. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335243#335243 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:44 AM PST US From: "Gboothe5" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Visit to John McPherson Thanks, Don. I think he said those mags were given to him...I doubt if he knows they are unshielded... Gary Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Emch Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 4:28 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Visit to John McPherson Those are the unshielded mags, right? I'll have to stop by the hangar later and check on the p-leads on mine. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335241#335241 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:36 AM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings I mean, if I were building a 300-HP, 300-MPH airplane this would be a concern. The plane I'm building will probably never get to 100 MPH and will probably never see more than 1.5 - 2.0 Gs. Give me a break! ----- Original Message ----- From: Ryan Mueller To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 8:38 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Excellent attitude... On Sun, Mar 27, 2011 at 6:57 PM, Charles Campbell wrote: Don't worry about it -- I don't. ----- Original Message ----- From: "womenfly2" To: Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 6:25 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Your wing spars really worry me. Seriously. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335203#335203 ========== st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:56 AM PST US From: Dan Yocum Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Chuck, I'm going to echo everyone's call to re-evaluate your spar material. We don't want you to get hurt or your airplane to get bent. You may be right, your spars may hold up for many hours of flight time. Heck, the airplane may survive you. But, how horrible would you feel if the next owner lost his or her life because your choice of sub-par materials? It has happened before - I've referenced a similar incident on the list in the past. We really wish you the best. Please reconsider your choice of materials. Cheers, Dan On 03/27/2011 06:57 PM, Charles Campbell wrote: > > > Don't worry about it -- I don't. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "womenfly2" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 6:25 PM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings > > >> >> >> Your wing spars really worry me. Seriously. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335203#335203 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:12:40 AM PST US From: "Robert Gow" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings You should consider 4.5 Gs positive and 1.5 Gs negative when designing a nonaerobatic aircraft. Bob From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Campbell Sent: March 28, 2011 8:45 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings I mean, if I were building a 300-HP, 300-MPH airplane this would be a concern. The plane I'm building will probably never get to 100 MPH and will probably never see more than 1.5 - 2.0 Gs. Give me a break! ----- Original Message ----- From: Ryan Mueller Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 8:38 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Excellent attitude... On Sun, Mar 27, 2011 at 6:57 PM, Charles Campbell wrote: Don't worry about it -- I don't. ----- Original Message ----- From: "womenfly2" Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 6:25 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Your wing spars really worry me. Seriously. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335203#335203 ========== st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matron ics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:04 AM PST US From: Doug Dever Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings And it was designed with these parameters in mind. If you use sub par mate rials you are reducing the safety factors. If it was designed with 300mph and 6+ -Gs in mind and you are operating at 100mph and 3.5+ 1.5- then that would be a different story. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio From: cncampbell@windstream.net Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings I mean=2C if I were building a 300-HP=2C 300-MPH airplane this would be a c oncern. The plane I'm building will probably never get to 100 MPH and will probably never see more than 1.5 - 2.0 Gs. Give me a break! ----- Original Message ----- From: Ryan Mueller Sent: Sunday=2C March 27=2C 2011 8:38 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Excellent attitude... On Sun=2C Mar 27=2C 2011 at 6:57 PM=2C Charles Campbell wrote: ream.net> Don't worry about it -- I don't. ----- Original Message ----- From: "womenfly2" Sent: Sunday=2C March 27=2C 2011 6:25 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings > Your wing spars really worry me. Seriously. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335203#335203 st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com le=2C List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:37 AM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Norm, here's the thing. I have epoxy glued 14 ribs to those spars. I don't want to tear that whole thing up if I don't have to. This 'dar' you mentioned, how can I find out who he/she is for my area and do you think he/she would be willing to come look at the wing to see if I REALLY need to tear it up? I'm satisfied that for what the airplane will be asked to do that it would be perfectly safe. But, as you say, it would be a shame to get the thing finished and then not be able to get it licensed. I would appreciate your ideas. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: norm To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 9:06 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings I too think you should get some local help on selecting your spar quality , perhaps an eaa chapter ,, or fellow builder or ? It would be a shame if your dar fails it after all your hard work , please accept this as friendly criticism regards norm ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: womenfly2 To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sun, March 27, 2011 6:25:29 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Your wing spars really worry me. Seriously. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.cnbsp; ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:38 AM PST US From: Tim White Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Its coming From: cncampbell@windstream.net Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings I mean=2C if I were building a 300-HP=2C 300-MPH airplane this would be a c oncern. The plane I'm building will probably never get to 100 MPH and will probably never see more than 1.5 - 2.0 Gs. Give me a break! ----- Original Message ----- From: Ryan Mueller Sent: Sunday=2C March 27=2C 2011 8:38 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Excellent attitude... On Sun=2C Mar 27=2C 2011 at 6:57 PM=2C Charles Campbell wrote: ream.net> Don't worry about it -- I don't. ----- Original Message ----- From: "womenfly2" Sent: Sunday=2C March 27=2C 2011 6:25 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings > Your wing spars really worry me. Seriously. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335203#335203 st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com le=2C List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:53 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings From: Ryan Mueller That's cool. After reviewing the material again I did miss the footnote that said: "Minimum standards for acceptable wood for aircraft use do not apply to aircraft making less than 300 horsepower, with a VNE less than 300 miles per hour, or one which will most likely be unable to achieve an airspeed of 100 miles per hour or experience stresses any greater than 2.0 G. In such cases the builder shall also display, in addition to and viewable alongside the EXPERIMENTAL placard, a placard stating "DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT, I DON'T"..... do not archive On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 7:44 AM, Charles Campbell wrote: > I mean, if I were building a 300-HP, 300-MPH airplane this would be a > concern. The plane I'm building will probably never get to 100 MPH and will > probably never see more than 1.5 - 2.0 Gs. Give me a break! > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Ryan Mueller > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Sunday, March 27, 2011 8:38 PM > *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings > > Excellent attitude... > > On Sun, Mar 27, 2011 at 6:57 PM, Charles Campbell < > cncampbell@windstream.net> wrote: > >> cncampbell@windstream.net> >> >> >> Don't worry about it -- I don't. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "womenfly2" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 6:25 PM >> >> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings >> >> >> >>> keriannprice@hotmail.com> >>> >>> Your wing spars really worry me. Seriously. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335203#335203 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> ========== >> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> ========== >> http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> le, List Admin. >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c* > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:49:58 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings From: "Bill Church" I've been biting my tongue on this one, but Chuck's responses warrant a comment, I think. Chuck wrote: > I mean, if I were building a 300-HP, 300-MPH airplane this would be a concern. The plane I'm building will probably never get to 100 MPH and will probably never see more than 1.5 - 2.0 Gs. Give me a break! > 1. If you were building a 300HP, 300MPH airplane, the spars would have been designed to handle the stresses that such a plane would encounter. But you're building a less-than-100HP, less-than-100MPH airplane that was designed as such. The spars as indicated in the plans are sized for the conditions that THIS airplane is expected to encounter. If you use materials that do not meet the normally accepted standards, as set out in AC 43.13-1b, then you are basically weakening the structure of the aircraft. 2. If you do a 60 degree banked turn, your airplane will see 2 Gs. If you make a steeper turn, you could easily see 3 Gs or more. Add some turbulence, and it gets even worse. General aviation light aircraft are designed to withstand +4 Gs. Using sub-standard spars can significantly reduce the stresses that the airframe can safely handle. Some parts of an aircraft can withstand some damage, and manage to make it safely back to earth. The spars are not among those parts. If a spar fails in flight, you (and any passenger) are toast. Hopefully the "break" you're asking for is not in one of your spars. Give this matter some serious thought, Chuck. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335269#335269 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:26 AM PST US From: Kip and Beth Gardner Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Charles, Have you rigged and trammeled the wing yet? If so, you should not have glued the ribs in place anyway. The ribs are not a structural part of the wing per se, the spars, compression struts and drag/ antidrag cables are what give the wing its proper shape/geometry and structural strength. Kip Gardner On Mar 28, 2011, at 9:55 AM, Charles Campbell wrote: > Norm, here's the thing. I have epoxy glued 14 ribs to those spars. > I don't want to tear that whole thing up if I don't have to. This > 'dar' you mentioned, how can I find out who he/she is for my area > and do you think he/she would be willing to come look at the wing to > see if I REALLY need to tear it up? I'm satisfied that for what the > airplane will be asked to do that it would be perfectly safe. But, > as you say, it would be a shame to get the thing finished and then > not be able to get it licensed. I would appreciate your ideas. Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: norm > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 9:06 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings > > I too think you should get some local help on selecting your spar > quality , > perhaps an eaa chapter ,, or fellow builder or ? It would be a > shame if your dar fails it after all your hard work , please accept > this as friendly criticism regards norm > > From: womenfly2 > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sun, March 27, 2011 6:25:29 PM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings > > > > > Your wing spars really worry me. Seriously. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.cnbsp; > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http:// > www.matronics.com/c > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:43 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Torque Control Tube Location From: "kevinpurtee" Hi Jack - I think I understand what you're asking. There's not much room in the cockpit to slide that bottom aileron control attachment horn forward. I built the controls before I figured out the wing geometry. In order to accommodate the rearward slope of the cables, I clearanced the panel base plywood upon assembly. Hope that makes sense and I hope I understood your question. Kevin -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335273#335273 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:57 AM PST US From: "Richard Schreiber" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Chuck: The FAR's for structual wood is pretty clear. The maximum allowable grain run out (slope of the grain lines) is 1 inch in 15 inches. From your photographs you have some ares where it is 1 inch in 2. Your grain pattern is also wavy. The FAR's allow this. but only if the run out is maintained, which in your case it isn't. In addition the number of annular groth rings should be a minimum of 6 per inch, but preferably in the 12 to 15 per inch range. In some areas of your spars it looks to be 1 line per inch. Chuck, I know you have put a lot of effort in getting your wings to this state, but the bottom line is that they are unsafe. Its highly unlikely you will get an airworthiness certificate upon inspection. Its far better to correct the problem now rather putting more effort into it. Rick Schreiber, Valparaiso, IN ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:15:05 AM PST US From: "Gboothe5" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Torque Control Tube Location Jack, I also have a 4" tilt back (swag), and the aileron portion of my assembly is built to plans. The routing holes for the cable were done with strings and eyeballs, but the end result is that there was plenty of room behind the instruments; and I did not increase the length of my cabanes, making the angle greater than those who have..not sure if that helps. Gary Boothe From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 4:10 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Torque Control Tube Location Ready to mount my control assembly. Considering the angle the aileron cables pass through the slot in the panel base up to the center section pulleys. I'm just guessing my wing will be 4 inches aft of perpendicular. (Is this average for a long fuselage, C-85, split gear, heavier than average tail) Can someone help with the calculation of how far the aileron control horn needs to be forward of the slot in the panel base? Assuming a rise of approximately 46" (horn to slot 22" and slot to c-section 24") and wing aft 4" equals having the horn 4" forward the slot?? Not sure I have that much room. Thanks!! Jack DSM ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:41 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings From: Ken Bickers There is some useful information on spar analysis that can be found on Chris Tracy's WestCoastPiet.Com website under his Construction tile. Two documents, in particular, are helpful in thinking about the use of wood as spars. One is Simplified Wing Stress Analysis and the other is I-Beam Analysis. A couple of observations from these documents. One, the speed of the aircraft is irrelevant in calculating loads on the spars themselves. Two, the maximum stress on a strut based wing is found 3/8ths of the distance outboard of the flying strut attach point (see Fig 1 in the Simplified Wing Stress Analysis document). That is the point at which all of the loads outboard of the strut are concentrated. Generally, this will be on the forward spar. If I were looking for the one place to avoid any waviness in a spar, it would be the forward spar in the general area outboard of the strut fitting that is between 1/4th and 1/2th of the distance out. Looking at the pictures, that is precisely the location of maximum waviness in these spars. Ken On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 8:13 AM, Ryan Mueller wrote: > That's cool. After reviewing the material again I did miss the footnote that > said: > "Minimum standards for acceptable wood for aircraft use do not apply to > aircraft making less than 300 horsepower, with a VNE less than 300 miles per > hour, or one which will most likely be unable to achieve an airspeed of 100 > miles per hour or experience stresses any greater than 2.0 G. In such cases > the builder shall also display, in addition to and viewable alongside the > EXPERIMENTAL placard, a placard stating "DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT, I DON'T"..... > do not archive > > On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 7:44 AM, Charles Campbell > wrote: >> >> I mean, if I were building a 300-HP, 300-MPH airplane this would be a >> concern. The plane I'm building will probably never get to 100 MPH and will >> probably never see more than 1.5 - 2.0 Gs. Give me a break! >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Ryan Mueller >> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >> Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 8:38 PM >> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings >> Excellent attitude... >> >> On Sun, Mar 27, 2011 at 6:57 PM, Charles Campbell >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Don't worry about it -- I don't. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "womenfly2" >>> To: >>> Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 6:25 PM >>> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Your wing spars really worry me. Seriously. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Read this topic online here: >>>> >>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335203#335203 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> ========== >>> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >>> ========== >>> http://forums.matronics.com >>> ========== >>> le, List Admin. >>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>> ========== >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c >> >> " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:41 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings From: Ken Bickers Quick correction to Rick's post. The minimum of 6 growth rings per inch is for Sitka Spruce (as well as Hemlock). For Douglas Fir, the minimum is 8 growth rings per inch. The run out figure of 1 inch in 15 is the same across these wood types. On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 9:19 AM, Richard Schreiber wrote: > Chuck: > The FAR's for structual wood is pretty clear. The maximum allowable grain > run out (slope of the grain lines) is 1 inch in 15 inches. From your > photographs you have some ares where it is 1 inch in 2. Your grain pattern > is also wavy. The FAR's allow this. but only if the run out is maintained, > which in your case it isn't. In addition the number of annular groth rings > should be a minimum of 6 per inch, but preferably in the 12 to 15 per inch > range. In some areas of your spars it looks to be 1 line per inch. > > Chuck, I know you have put a lot of effort in getting your wings to this > state, but the bottom line is that they are unsafe. Its highly unlikely you > will get an airworthiness certificate upon inspection. Its far better to > correct the problem now rather putting more effort into it. > > Rick Schreiber, > Valparaiso, IN > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:56 AM PST US From: "Gboothe5" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings I'm trying to visualize what it must be like for Chuck, when he realizes, or learns from his DAR or FAA inspector, that his spars are un-airworthy, and what the possible resolves are. Is it worth trying to save all those ribs and figure out a way to remove the spar without damaging each rib? For me it would be, but I know others who actually enjoy making those crazy things! How about you, Chuck? Are you interested in putting forth the question and getting some ideas on how to cut the ribs loose? Gary Boothe ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:29 AM PST US From: "Richard Schreiber" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Chuck: Here is a link to a very good report from the EAA on spar wood selection. http://www.oshkosh365.org/saarchive/eaa_articles/1966_09_19.pdf By the way the number of growth lines per inch that I quoted was for spruce. For douglas fir, which it appears your spars are, its actually a minimum of 8 per inch. Attached is an example of typical spruce spar material from Aircraft Spruce. Regards, Rick Schreiber ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Schreiber Sent: 3/28/2011 11:26:53 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Chuck: The FAR's for structual wood is pretty clear. The maximum allowable grain run out (slope of the grain lines) is 1 inch in 15 inches. From your photographs you have some ares where it is 1 inch in 2. Your grain pattern is also wavy. The FAR's allow this. but only if the run out is maintained, which in your case it isn't. In addition the number of annular groth rings should be a minimum of 6 per inch, but preferably in the 12 to 15 per inch range. In some areas of your spars it looks to be 1 line per inch. Chuck, I know you have put a lot of effort in getting your wings to this state, but the bottom line is that they are unsafe. Its highly unlikely you will get an airworthiness certificate upon inspection. Its far better to correct the problem now rather putting more effort into it. Rick Schreiber, Valparaiso, IN No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:12:57 AM PST US From: "Jack" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Torque Control Tube Location It does Kevin, thanks. I'm just trying to "predict the future" hoping the cables won't interfere with instruments' or depart through the panel. Jack DSM -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kevinpurtee Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 9:51 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Torque Control Tube Location Hi Jack - I think I understand what you're asking. There's not much room in the cockpit to slide that bottom aileron control attachment horn forward. I built the controls before I figured out the wing geometry. In order to accommodate the rearward slope of the cables, I clearanced the panel base plywood upon assembly. Hope that makes sense and I hope I understood your question. Kevin -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335273#335273 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:29:23 AM PST US From: "Jack" Subject: RE: RE: Pietenpol-List: Torque Control Tube Location Thanks Gary! Jack Do not archive _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gboothe5 Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 10:21 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Torque Control Tube Location Jack, I also have a 4" tilt back (swag), and the aileron portion of my assembly is built to plans. The routing holes for the cable were done with strings and eyeballs, but the end result is that there was plenty of room behind the instruments; and I did not increase the length of my cabanes, making the angle greater than those who have..not sure if that helps. Gary Boothe From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 4:10 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Torque Control Tube Location Ready to mount my control assembly. Considering the angle the aileron cables pass through the slot in the panel base up to the center section pulleys. I'm just guessing my wing will be 4 inches aft of perpendicular. (Is this average for a long fuselage, C-85, split gear, heavier than average tail) Can someone help with the calculation of how far the aileron control horn needs to be forward of the slot in the panel base? Assuming a rise of approximately 46" (horn to slot 22" and slot to c-section 24") and wing aft 4" equals having the horn 4" forward the slot?? Not sure I have that much room. Thanks!! Jack DSM http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:08:11 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Torque Control Tube Location From: "kevinpurtee" Through pure dumb luck (keep exhibiting that, don't I!) I have no interference with instruments and my cabanes are stock as well. do not archive -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335301#335301 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:13:09 AM PST US From: "Richard Schreiber" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Gary: I with you on this one! It certainly would be devastating to wind out that the spars are not acceptable. Here are a couple of possibilities. 1. Consider the spars as toast. Carefully cut the spars between each rib, then using whatever means necessary, remove the spar materal from each of the ribs. It would be alot of work, but certainly less than rebuilding all of the ribs. 2. Junk the whole wing assembly and order another set of finished ribs. I know that Edgar Howe sells a nice set of completed ribs (either the original Pietenpol airfoil or the Riblett 612 for around $300. I know that I sure wouldn't have the heart to redo the ribs. Chuck, if you decide to order the ribs, Edgar can be reached at 219-508-6880. He also will be at Brodhead with ribs for sale. Regards, Rick Schreiber ----- Original Message ----- From: Gboothe5 Sent: 3/28/2011 12:16:01 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Im trying to visualize what it must be like for Chuck, when he realizes, or learns from his DAR or FAA inspector, that his spars are un-airworthy, and what the possible resolves are. Is it worth trying to save all those ribs and figure out a way to remove the spar without damaging each rib? For me it would be, but I know others who actually enjoy making those crazy things! How about you, Chuck? Are you interested in putting forth the question and getting some ideas on how to cut the ribs loose? Gary Boothe http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:59 AM PST US From: "Gboothe5" Subject: RE: RE: Pietenpol-List: Torque Control Tube Location Oh, but the cable come very close to the windscreen! I can send pics later if you want.. Gary From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 10:01 AM Subject: RE: RE: Pietenpol-List: Torque Control Tube Location Thanks Gary! Jack Do not archive _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gboothe5 Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 10:21 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Torque Control Tube Location Jack, I also have a 4" tilt back (swag), and the aileron portion of my assembly is built to plans. The routing holes for the cable were done with strings and eyeballs, but the end result is that there was plenty of room behind the instruments; and I did not increase the length of my cabanes, making the angle greater than those who have..not sure if that helps. Gary Boothe From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 4:10 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Torque Control Tube Location Ready to mount my control assembly. Considering the angle the aileron cables pass through the slot in the panel base up to the center section pulleys. I'm just guessing my wing will be 4 inches aft of perpendicular. (Is this average for a long fuselage, C-85, split gear, heavier than average tail) Can someone help with the calculation of how far the aileron control horn needs to be forward of the slot in the panel base? Assuming a rise of approximately 46" (horn to slot 22" and slot to c-section 24") and wing aft 4" equals having the horn 4" forward the slot?? Not sure I have that much room. Thanks!! Jack DSM http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 11:16:30 AM PST US From: "Gboothe5" Subject: RE: RE: Pietenpol-List: Torque Control Tube Location Oh, but the cable come very close to the windscreen! I can send pics later if you want.. Gary From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 10:01 AM Subject: RE: RE: Pietenpol-List: Torque Control Tube Location Thanks Gary! Jack Do not archive _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gboothe5 Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 10:21 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Torque Control Tube Location Jack, I also have a 4" tilt back (swag), and the aileron portion of my assembly is built to plans. The routing holes for the cable were done with strings and eyeballs, but the end result is that there was plenty of room behind the instruments; and I did not increase the length of my cabanes, making the angle greater than those who have..not sure if that helps. Gary Boothe From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 4:10 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Torque Control Tube Location Ready to mount my control assembly. Considering the angle the aileron cables pass through the slot in the panel base up to the center section pulleys. I'm just guessing my wing will be 4 inches aft of perpendicular. (Is this average for a long fuselage, C-85, split gear, heavier than average tail) Can someone help with the calculation of how far the aileron control horn needs to be forward of the slot in the panel base? Assuming a rise of approximately 46" (horn to slot 22" and slot to c-section 24") and wing aft 4" equals having the horn 4" forward the slot?? Not sure I have that much room. Thanks!! Jack DSM http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 11:17:11 AM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings don, these are made of Douglas Fir and I thought they would be much stronger than spruce. The strength tables show that they are. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Emch" Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 7:40 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings > > Chuck, > > Please take these comments as positive, caring, criticism. The way the > pictures look the spars do not meet the wood specs that are called for. > We do have the liberty to build what we want and basically how we want, > but those specs have been called out for a reason. Please check them > over. I've built several spars for several airplanes and this is an area > that you clearly don't want to use sub par materials. The really cool > thing right now is that there doesn't seem to be a shortage of excellent > spar quality spruce wood. Probably about $800 will get you excellent spar > material from one of the top aircraft suppliers and you'll have it in > about 2 weeks. Pretty good for the most important structural part of the > airplane. > > Don Emch > NX899DE > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335243#335243 > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 11:21:09 AM PST US From: SENTUCHOWS@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rounded Seat for Delrin Needle, Stromberg Carb, Conti... Curt I have not heard from Mike. If you want the needle seat let me know. Just send me your address. Dave ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 11:22:51 AM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Don, what do you think of the rear spar? Can you see enough of it to comment? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Emch" Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 7:40 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings > > Chuck, > > Please take these comments as positive, caring, criticism. The way the > pictures look the spars do not meet the wood specs that are called for. > We do have the liberty to build what we want and basically how we want, > but those specs have been called out for a reason. Please check them > over. I've built several spars for several airplanes and this is an area > that you clearly don't want to use sub par materials. The really cool > thing right now is that there doesn't seem to be a shortage of excellent > spar quality spruce wood. Probably about $800 will get you excellent spar > material from one of the top aircraft suppliers and you'll have it in > about 2 weeks. Pretty good for the most important structural part of the > airplane. > > Don Emch > NX899DE > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335243#335243 > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 11:28:49 AM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings I have already received a couple, but go ahead if you have any suggestions. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gboothe5 To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 12:43 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings I'm trying to visualize what it must be like for Chuck, when he realizes, or learns from his DAR or FAA inspector, that his spars are un-airworthy, and what the possible resolves are. Is it worth trying to save all those ribs and figure out a way to remove the spar without damaging each rib? For me it would be, but I know others who actually enjoy making those crazy things! How about you, Chuck? Are you interested in putting forth the question and getting some ideas on how to cut the ribs loose? Gary Boothe http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 12:32:20 PM PST US From: Jim Boyer Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Progress Hi Chuck, I am getting therapy twice a week now and have been for 6weeks at out patient facility and two weeks at home before that. It will flex a little over 100 degrees now but am hoping I can make that more like 120 degrees before I run out of money for therapy. Right now if I drop something on the floor I have a heck of a time picking it up to say nothing of trying to work on the tail wheel or anything on or near the belly. ... but it is coming. Thanks, Jim Boyer Do not archive ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 12:37:32 PM PST US From: "Gboothe5" Subject: RE: RE: Pietenpol-List: Torque Control Tube Location Oh, but the cable come very close to the windscreen! I can send pics later if you want.. Gary From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 10:01 AM Subject: RE: RE: Pietenpol-List: Torque Control Tube Location Thanks Gary! Jack Do not archive _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gboothe5 Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 10:21 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Torque Control Tube Location Jack, I also have a 4" tilt back (swag), and the aileron portion of my assembly is built to plans. The routing holes for the cable were done with strings and eyeballs, but the end result is that there was plenty of room behind the instruments; and I did not increase the length of my cabanes, making the angle greater than those who have..not sure if that helps. Gary Boothe From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 4:10 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Torque Control Tube Location Ready to mount my control assembly. Considering the angle the aileron cables pass through the slot in the panel base up to the center section pulleys. I'm just guessing my wing will be 4 inches aft of perpendicular. (Is this average for a long fuselage, C-85, split gear, heavier than average tail) Can someone help with the calculation of how far the aileron control horn needs to be forward of the slot in the panel base? Assuming a rise of approximately 46" (horn to slot 22" and slot to c-section 24") and wing aft 4" equals having the horn 4" forward the slot?? Not sure I have that much room. Thanks!! Jack DSM http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:42 PM PST US From: Jim Boyer Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Progress Hi again Chuck, I'm not working the computer too swiftly right now. I am sorry you had gotten sick after the surgery; I was really afraid of that myself as we have 5 grandkids nearby and at least one of them has something it seems. My wife had a knee replacement too about 8 years ago and she was really insisting on me doing the therapy so that helped. Can you bend the knee enough now to get down on the floor and work on landing gear, etc? Jim Boyer Do not archive ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:19 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings From: "Don Emch" Hi Chuck, I really feel for you and the bad feeling you get at the thought of re-doing something like this. It just sucks! I know that Douglas Fir is supposedly stronger, but even the rear spars don't appear to meet the specs. I understand a big reason for the grain per inch spec has some to do with warpage, but strength is a very big issue too. Strength that is measureable and consistent is found in spar examples that meet the specs. If you don't meets those specs then you really don't know what you have. Again the whole idea of re-doing something like this sucks. I made center section fittings I didn't think were good so I dismantled the whole centersection and built new. Then there was the time the hangar collapsed on the finished airplane and I had to rebuild. It just sucks! Maybe you could cut the upright where the rib is glued to the spar and then when replacing the spar you could just splice in a new upright. That's how I rebuilt my centersection. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335315#335315 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 01:01:01 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Almost done From: Rick Holland Incredible, I was up at Dave's place just 2 weeks ago looking at his 235 engine parts scattered all over the living room, a beautiful new Sensenich aluminum prop, and some tubing that Dave said would take him maybe a day to make into an engine mount and look at it now, its ready to run. Incredible work Dave rick (and you guys won't believe what Dave's next project is, he already has the plans and is tracking down some engines) On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 5:09 AM, Dangerous Dave wrote: > > Not much more to do,should be done here shortly,dave > > -------- > Covering Piet > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335240#335240 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/2011_03_27_07_55_54_338_459.jpg > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "A Foolish Consistency is the Hobgoblin of Little Minds" ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 01:17:21 PM PST US From: "Gboothe5" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Drive a =BD=94 chisel under each rib, from both sides. Remove rib, clean up with a file. Gary From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Campbell Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 11:06 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings I have already received a couple, but go ahead if you have any suggestions. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gboothe5 Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 12:43 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings I=92m trying to visualize what it must be like for Chuck, when he realizes, or learns from his DAR or FAA inspector, that his spars are un-airworthy, and what the possible resolves are. Is it worth trying to save all those ribs and figure out a way to remove the spar without damaging each rib? For me it would be, but I know others who actually enjoy making those crazy things! How about you, Chuck? Are you interested in putting forth the question and getting some ideas on how to cut the ribs loose? Gary Boothe http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronic s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 01:24:19 PM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings What do the initials DAR stand for? It's designated aircraft R-------? I'm going to try to find the one for my area and I want it from the horse's mouth that he won't approve my wing before I do ANYTHING. ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Schreiber To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 1:39 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Gary: I with you on this one! It certainly would be devastating to wind out that the spars are not acceptable. Here are a couple of possibilities. 1. Consider the spars as toast. Carefully cut the spars between each rib, then using whatever means necessary, remove the spar materal from each of the ribs. It would be alot of work, but certainly less than rebuilding all of the ribs. 2. Junk the whole wing assembly and order another set of finished ribs. I know that Edgar Howe sells a nice set of completed ribs (either the original Pietenpol airfoil or the Riblett 612 for around $300. I know that I sure wouldn't have the heart to redo the ribs. Chuck, if you decide to order the ribs, Edgar can be reached at 219-508-6880. He also will be at Brodhead with ribs for sale. Regards, Rick Schreiber ----- Original Message ----- From: Gboothe5 To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: 3/28/2011 12:16:01 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings I'm trying to visualize what it must be like for Chuck, when he realizes, or learns from his DAR or FAA inspector, that his spars are un-airworthy, and what the possible resolves are. Is it worth trying to save all those ribs and figure out a way to remove the spar without damaging each rib? For me it would be, but I know others who actually enjoy making those crazy things! How about you, Chuck? Are you interested in putting forth the question and getting some ideas on how to cut the ribs loose? Gary Boothe http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp:/ /forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 01:25:31 PM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings I don't believe I'll be ordering ribs that have been made by someone else. I think I can salvedge the ones I have if it comes to that. ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Schreiber To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 1:39 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Gary: I with you on this one! It certainly would be devastating to wind out that the spars are not acceptable. Here are a couple of possibilities. 1. Consider the spars as toast. Carefully cut the spars between each rib, then using whatever means necessary, remove the spar materal from each of the ribs. It would be alot of work, but certainly less than rebuilding all of the ribs. 2. Junk the whole wing assembly and order another set of finished ribs. I know that Edgar Howe sells a nice set of completed ribs (either the original Pietenpol airfoil or the Riblett 612 for around $300. I know that I sure wouldn't have the heart to redo the ribs. Chuck, if you decide to order the ribs, Edgar can be reached at 219-508-6880. He also will be at Brodhead with ribs for sale. Regards, Rick Schreiber ----- Original Message ----- From: Gboothe5 To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: 3/28/2011 12:16:01 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings I'm trying to visualize what it must be like for Chuck, when he realizes, or learns from his DAR or FAA inspector, that his spars are un-airworthy, and what the possible resolves are. Is it worth trying to save all those ribs and figure out a way to remove the spar without damaging each rib? For me it would be, but I know others who actually enjoy making those crazy things! How about you, Chuck? Are you interested in putting forth the question and getting some ideas on how to cut the ribs loose? Gary Boothe http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp:/ /forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 01:28:25 PM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings How do I find out who the DAR is in my area? ----- Original Message ----- From: Gboothe5 To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 12:43 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings I'm trying to visualize what it must be like for Chuck, when he realizes, or learns from his DAR or FAA inspector, that his spars are un-airworthy, and what the possible resolves are. Is it worth trying to save all those ribs and figure out a way to remove the spar without damaging each rib? For me it would be, but I know others who actually enjoy making those crazy things! How about you, Chuck? Are you interested in putting forth the question and getting some ideas on how to cut the ribs loose? Gary Boothe http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:36 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings From: "jarheadpilot82" Chuck, I am a new guy to this forum, and have yet to start building my ribs. I do, however, feel for you. >From my woodworking experience (and I am sure that there are plenty of people on this forum with far more experience, than I), I guess i would start by cutting all 14 ribs off the spars. Cut through the spars as close as possible to each rib (but not too close) and lay the ribs aside. I know when I am unhappy with work that I have done, the first thing I want to do is get rid of the evidence! I am trying to make a joke here, but the truth is that I want the unacceptable work gone. I would then come up with the top 5 ways to fix the problem. Next, I would go one by one and try them until you find the easiest, best way to accomplish the job. Some suggestions- 1. I like Don's idea of cutting through the rib and both uprights, clean up the inside portions of the capstrips, put the rib back on the jig and redo the uprights. 2. You could try taking a chisel and carefully chipping away at the portion of rib that remains. 3. Start a kindling for next winter, and start over on half your ribs. (The least palatable choice, but the one I would probably think of doing, out of frustration). 4. Buy 'em and call it a tuition payment to the school of airplane building. I wish you the best and I will keep you posted as I begin making my ribs. I know that you will do well as you move forward. Don't let this take the wind out of your sails. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335323#335323 ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 02:01:18 PM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Progress I can get down a whole lot better than I can get up :>) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Boyer To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 3:15 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Progress Hi again Chuck, I'm not working the computer too swiftly right now. I am sorry you had gotten sick after the surgery; I was really afraid of that myself as we have 5 grandkids nearby and at least one of them has something it seems. My wife had a knee replacement too about 8 years ago and she was really insisting on me doing the therapy so that helped. Can you bend the knee enough now to get down on the floor and work on landing gear, etc? Jim Boyer Do not archive ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 02:02:58 PM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Progress #2. The reason I got sick was they gave me so many antibiotics to keep the knee from getting infected that it killed off the good bacteria in my system and a bad bug took over. Nothing to do with the knee surgery other than the Dr who operated was the one who prescribed all the antibiotics. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Boyer To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 3:15 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Progress Hi again Chuck, I'm not working the computer too swiftly right now. I am sorry you had gotten sick after the surgery; I was really afraid of that myself as we have 5 grandkids nearby and at least one of them has something it seems. My wife had a knee replacement too about 8 years ago and she was really insisting on me doing the therapy so that helped. Can you bend the knee enough now to get down on the floor and work on landing gear, etc? Jim Boyer Do not archive ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:21 PM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Progress Good! Just keep plugging away. My knee flexes OK, but I don't have much strength in my right leg and it hurts some. Guess I'll just have to live with it. There is a fellow in our Sunday School class who had both his knees done and he says they feel like he's a teenager again. He's a plumber and he crawls around on his hands and knees on concrete floors without any trouble or pain. I can hardly crawl around on carpeted floor. Hope you get better! Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Boyer To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 3:08 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Progress Hi Chuck, I am getting therapy twice a week now and have been for 6weeks at out patient facility and two weeks at home before that. It will flex a little over 100 degrees now but am hoping I can make that more like 120 degrees before I run out of money for therapy. Right now if I drop something on the floor I have a heck of a time picking it up to say nothing of trying to work on the tail wheel or anything on or near the belly. ... but it is coming. Thanks, Jim Boyer Do not archive ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:21 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings From: Ryan Mueller http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/designees_delegations/desi gnee_types/dar/ On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 3:06 PM, Charles Campbell wrote: > How do I find out who the DAR is in my area? > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Gboothe5 > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Monday, March 28, 2011 12:43 PM > *Subject:* RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings > > I=92m trying to visualize what it must be like for Chuck, when he realiz es, > or learns from his DAR or FAA inspector, that his spars are un-airworthy, > and what the possible resolves are. Is it worth trying to save all those > ribs and figure out a way to remove the spar without damaging each rib? F or > me it would be, but I know others who actually enjoy making those crazy > things! > > > How about you, Chuck? Are you interested in putting forth the question an d > getting some ideas on how to cut the ribs loose? > > > Gary Boothe > > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > * * > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c * > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:51 PM PST US From: "Robert Gow" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings I also have an extra set of standard Piet ribs which I would let go very reasonably. I bought them about two years ago. Bob From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Campbell Sent: March 28, 2011 4:01 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings What do the initials DAR stand for? It's designated aircraft R-------? I'm going to try to find the one for my area and I want it from the horse's mouth that he won't approve my wing before I do ANYTHING. ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Schreiber Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 1:39 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Gary: I with you on this one! It certainly would be devastating to wind out that the spars are not acceptable. Here are a couple of possibilities. 1. Consider the spars as toast. Carefully cut the spars between each rib, then using whatever means necessary, remove the spar materal from each of the ribs. It would be alot of work, but certainly less than rebuilding all of the ribs. 2. Junk the whole wing assembly and order another set of finished ribs. I know that Edgar Howe sells a nice set of completed ribs (either the original Pietenpol airfoil or the Riblett 612 for around $300. I know that I sure wouldn't have the heart to redo the ribs. Chuck, if you decide to order the ribs, Edgar can be reached at 219-508-6880. He also will be at Brodhead with ribs for sale. Regards, Rick Schreiber ----- Original Message ----- From: Gboothe5 Sent: 3/28/2011 12:16:01 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings I'm trying to visualize what it must be like for Chuck, when he realizes, or learns from his DAR or FAA inspector, that his spars are un-airworthy, and what the possible resolves are. Is it worth trying to save all those ribs and figure out a way to remove the spar without damaging each rib? For me it would be, but I know others who actually enjoy making those crazy things! How about you, Chuck? Are you interested in putting forth the question and getting some ideas on how to cut the ribs loose? Gary Boothe http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http:/ /forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matron ics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:01 PM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings OK, Don. Thanks for your concern. I am in the process of locating the designated inspector for this region. I want to talk to him before I do anything about ripping my wing apart. The way you suggested is the way I will do it if it comes to that. Thanks again. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Emch" Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 3:34 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings > > Hi Chuck, > > I really feel for you and the bad feeling you get at the thought of > re-doing something like this. It just sucks! > > I know that Douglas Fir is supposedly stronger, but even the rear spars > don't appear to meet the specs. I understand a big reason for the grain > per inch spec has some to do with warpage, but strength is a very big > issue too. Strength that is measureable and consistent is found in spar > examples that meet the specs. If you don't meets those specs then you > really don't know what you have. > > Again the whole idea of re-doing something like this sucks. I made center > section fittings I didn't think were good so I dismantled the whole > centersection and built new. Then there was the time the hangar collapsed > on the finished airplane and I had to rebuild. It just sucks! > > Maybe you could cut the upright where the rib is glued to the spar and > then when replacing the spar you could just splice in a new upright. > That's how I rebuilt my centersection. > > Don Emch > NX899DE > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335315#335315 > > > ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:37 PM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Sounds good, Gary. Thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gboothe5 To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 3:53 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Drive a =BD" chisel under each rib, from both sides. Remove rib, clean up with a file. Gary From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Campbell Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 11:06 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings I have already received a couple, but go ahead if you have any suggestions. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gboothe5 To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 12:43 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings I'm trying to visualize what it must be like for Chuck, when he realizes, or learns from his DAR or FAA inspector, that his spars are un-airworthy, and what the possible resolves are. Is it worth trying to save all those ribs and figure out a way to remove the spar without damaging each rib? For me it would be, but I know others who actually enjoy making those crazy things! How about you, Chuck? Are you interested in putting forth the question and getting some ideas on how to cut the ribs loose? Gary Boothe http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">h ttp://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"> http://www.matronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 02:47:49 PM PST US From: "Richard Schreiber" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Chuck: >From the EAA...."In order for an amateur-built or light-sport airworthiness certificate to be issued to an aircraft, it must be inspected by a representative of the FAA. This can be either an FAA employee or a private individual who has been designated by the FAA to perform these inspections. This designee is called a Designated Airworthiness Representative, or "DAR". Due to budgetary and manpower restrictions at FAA offices, most applicants will find it more expedient to work with a DAR. The Amateur-Built (AB) FAA Designated Airworthiness Representative (DAR) program is a joint effort between EAA, the FAA and the Transportation Safety Institute (TSI), and is designed to provide amateur-built aircraft builders greater access to AB DARs to certify their completed aircraft. AB DARs have the FAA authorization to complete the final inspection and issue the airworthiness certificate and operating limitations for your amateur-built aircraft. " Here is a link about this from the EAA http://members.eaa.org/home/govt/help/ab_dar.asp It is my understanding that it used to be that you had to have an FAA pre-cover inspection and authorization before proceeding to the covering phase on fabric covered experimatal aircraft. Due to the budgetary constraints this has been eliminated and mostly replaced by the use of EAA tech counselors. In our local EAA chapter we have 2 EAA tech counselors that have kept track of my progress for the past 8 years. If I don't call them, they will call me to come out and inspect my Piet. There is no charge for the inspection. After the inspection a report is filled out with a copy to me and a copy for the EAA and FAA. As a hypthetical question, if during your final inspection by the FAA or a DAR you are asked about what you used for your spars, what are you going to say? You will not have a reciept showing your spars were aircraft grade spruce and photographs of the finished wings to prove it. What you currently have are photos of Douglas Fir spars that do not come close to meeting the FAR's. What then? Your best course of action is to have a EAA tech councelor come out and look at the wings. At least that way you have someone you can talk to about the concerns face to face. As I think Don Emch said, We are not trying to get in your face about this. We all have empathy for you, as there is not one of us who has not had to do some serious reconstruction. We just want to make sure you stay safe and take the best path forward. Regards, Rick Schreiber ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Campbell Sent: 3/28/2011 3:36:11 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings What do the initials DAR stand for? It's designated aircraft R-------? I'm going to try to find the one for my area and I want it from the horse's mouth that he won't approve my wing before I do ANYTHING. ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Schreiber Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 1:39 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Gary: I with you on this one! It certainly would be devastating to wind out that the spars are not acceptable. Here are a couple of possibilities. 1. Consider the spars as toast. Carefully cut the spars between each rib, then using whatever means necessary, remove the spar materal from each of the ribs. It would be alot of work, but certainly less than rebuilding all of the ribs. 2. Junk the whole wing assembly and order another set of finished ribs. I know that Edgar Howe sells a nice set of completed ribs (either the original Pietenpol airfoil or the Riblett 612 for around $300. I know that I sure wouldn't have the heart to redo the ribs. Chuck, if you decide to order the ribs, Edgar can be reached at 219-508-6880. He also will be at Brodhead with ribs for sale. Regards, Rick Schreiber ----- Original Message ----- From: Gboothe5 Sent: 3/28/2011 12:16:01 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Im trying to visualize what it must be like for Chuck, when he realizes, or learns from his DAR or FAA inspector, that his spars are un-airworthy, and what the possible resolves are. Is it worth trying to save all those ribs and figure out a way to remove the spar without damaging each rib? For me it would be, but I know others who actually enjoy making those crazy things! How about you, Chuck? Are you interested in putting forth the question and getting some ideas on how to cut the ribs loose? Gary Boothe http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http:/ /forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 03:03:37 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings From: "Don Emch" Chuck, It sounds like you have a very good plan. One nice thing about having a DAR come out to visit is that you can load up with a whole bunch of questions and just spend a couple of hours drilling him on many different subjects. Good luck! Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335341#335341 ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 04:09:52 PM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Chuck, I can relate to hating having to rebuild completed parts for your ai rplane.- I am in the process of making new landing gear shock struts, whi ch were "done".- The hardest part of this airplane building thing, is bei ng honest with yourself.- I know how easy it is to talk yourself into say ing "It will be alright".- If you have to spend a few dollars to rebuild your wings do it.- It is cheaper than rebuilding your whole, completed ai rplane wen it fails, and you will be hating yourself wishing you had rebuil t the spars.- It is all part of the experiance.- It won't be as hard as you think.- Put pride aside, an ounce of prevension, is worth a ton of f ixing later. - Just my humble oppinion, Shad=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 05:13:04 PM PST US From: "Dick N" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sun'n'Fun favor Hi Tom Give me a call tonight or tomorrow, I can help you. I'm at Sun n Fun so don't e mail me back, I wont get your message for a couple of days. 612-805-1742 ----- Original Message ----- From: TOM MICHELLE BRANT To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 10:19 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Sun'n'Fun favor Anyone still reading email that's attending Sun'n'fun, I could use a favor if you're willing. I'm trying to get a bunch of turnbuckles from B&B but he's got everything at Sun'n'Fun. Wondering if anyone would be willing to get me some and promptly be reimbursed. Preferably someone from Minneapolis area - Dick Navratril perhaps??? Later, Tom Brant ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 05:34:36 PM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings I agree with Don. It's no fun re-doing something that is finished or close to it. I have re-made fittings and re-thought my methods of construction many times. Removing the rib upright that is epoxied to the spar is the easiest way to free the ribs from the spar. That can be done with a coping saw or that little hack saw blade holder you have seen me use.(web site) Then you only need to cut new cap strips, fit in place, add gussets. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com --- On Mon, 3/28/11, Don Emch wrote: > From: Don Emch > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Date: Monday, March 28, 2011, 3:34 PM > --> Pietenpol-List message posted > by: "Don Emch" > > Hi Chuck, > > I really feel for you and the bad feeling you get at the > thought of re-doing something like this. It just > sucks! > > I know that Douglas Fir is supposedly stronger, but even > the rear spars don't appear to meet the specs. I > understand a big reason for the grain per inch spec has some > to do with warpage, but strength is a very big issue > too. Strength that is measureable and consistent is > found in spar examples that meet the specs. If you > don't meets those specs then you really don't know what you > have. > > Again the whole idea of re-doing something like this > sucks. I made center section fittings I didn't think > were good so I dismantled the whole centersection and built > new. Then there was the time the hangar collapsed on > the finished airplane and I had to rebuild. It just > sucks! > > Maybe you could cut the upright where the rib is glued to > the spar and then when replacing the spar you could just > splice in a new upright. That's how I rebuilt my > centersection. > > Don Emch > NX899DE > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335315#335315 > > > > > > > > Email Forum - > FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > > > ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 05:59:20 PM PST US From: "Jack" Subject: RE: RE: RE: Pietenpol-List: Torque Control Tube Location Pictures are not necessary Gary thanks. Had not though of the windscreen. Jack DSM Do not archive _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gboothe5 Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 12:53 PM Subject: RE: RE: Pietenpol-List: Torque Control Tube Location Oh, but the cable come very close to the windscreen! I can send pics later if you want.. Gary From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 10:01 AM Subject: RE: RE: Pietenpol-List: Torque Control Tube Location Thanks Gary! Jack Do not archive _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gboothe5 Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 10:21 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Torque Control Tube Location Jack, I also have a 4" tilt back (swag), and the aileron portion of my assembly is built to plans. The routing holes for the cable were done with strings and eyeballs, but the end result is that there was plenty of room behind the instruments; and I did not increase the length of my cabanes, making the angle greater than those who have..not sure if that helps. Gary Boothe From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 4:10 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Torque Control Tube Location Ready to mount my control assembly. Considering the angle the aileron cables pass through the slot in the panel base up to the center section pulleys. I'm just guessing my wing will be 4 inches aft of perpendicular. (Is this average for a long fuselage, C-85, split gear, heavier than average tail) Can someone help with the calculation of how far the aileron control horn needs to be forward of the slot in the panel base? Assuming a rise of approximately 46" (horn to slot 22" and slot to c-section 24") and wing aft 4" equals having the horn 4" forward the slot?? Not sure I have that much room. Thanks!! Jack DSM http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:52 PM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Thanks, Shad. Good advice! ----- Original Message ----- From: shad bell To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 6:46 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Chuck, I can relate to hating having to rebuild completed parts for your airplane. I am in the process of making new landing gear shock struts, which were "done". The hardest part of this airplane building thing, is being honest with yourself. I know how easy it is to talk yourself into saying "It will be alright". If you have to spend a few dollars to rebuild your wings do it. It is cheaper than rebuilding your whole, completed airplane wen it fails, and you will be hating yourself wishing you had rebuilt the spars. It is all part of the experiance. It won't be as hard as you think. Put pride aside, an ounce of prevension, is worth a ton of fixing later. Just my humble oppinion, Shad ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:13 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Chuck, as I recall you're in Winston-Salem, right? If I were you I would contact Eric Minnis, at the Greensboro FSDO. He's a homebuilder and very knowledgeable. He also is NOT your typical Fed (he refers to Oklahoma City as FAA Hindquarters). He can give you a more definitive ruling than any DAR. He's a good guy and will tell you the truth. Try eric.minnis@faa.gov Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Campbell Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 4:01 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings What do the initials DAR stand for? It's designated aircraft R-------? I'm going to try to find the one for my area and I want it from the horse's mouth that he won't approve my wing before I do ANYTHING. ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Schreiber Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 1:39 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Gary: I with you on this one! It certainly would be devastating to wind out that the spars are not acceptable. Here are a couple of possibilities. 1. Consider the spars as toast. Carefully cut the spars between each rib, then using whatever means necessary, remove the spar materal from each of the ribs. It would be alot of work, but certainly less than rebuilding all of the ribs. 2. Junk the whole wing assembly and order another set of finished ribs. I know that Edgar Howe sells a nice set of completed ribs (either the original Pietenpol airfoil or the Riblett 612 for around $300. I know that I sure wouldn't have the heart to redo the ribs. Chuck, if you decide to order the ribs, Edgar can be reached at 219-508-6880. He also will be at Brodhead with ribs for sale. Regards, Rick Schreiber ----- Original Message ----- From: Gboothe5 Sent: 3/28/2011 12:16:01 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings I'm trying to visualize what it must be like for Chuck, when he realizes, or learns from his DAR or FAA inspector, that his spars are un-airworthy, and what the possible resolves are. Is it worth trying to save all those ribs and figure out a way to remove the spar without damaging each rib? For me it would be, but I know others who actually enjoy making those crazy things! How about you, Chuck? Are you interested in putting forth the question and getting some ideas on how to cut the ribs loose? Gary Boothe http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http:/ /forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:40 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings One advantage to having the FSDO do the inspection is that they will do it for free, where a DAR will charge as much as $500 for an inspection. And the FSDO can make an absolute ruling, where the DAR will always worry about the FSDO looking over his shoulder. And if you can wait a couple of weeks, I can come look at it for you. I am an EAA Tech Counselor. But I expect I can give you my ruling just from looking at the photos. I would not fly with such spars. Nor would I glue the ribs in place until the rest of the wing was built (and even then just tack them in place if anything). Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Phillips Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 9:56 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Chuck, as I recall you're in Winston-Salem, right? If I were you I would contact Eric Minnis, at the Greensboro FSDO. He's a homebuilder and very knowledgeable. He also is NOT your typical Fed (he refers to Oklahoma City as FAA Hindquarters). He can give you a more definitive ruling than any DAR. He's a good guy and will tell you the truth. Try eric.minnis@faa.gov Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Campbell Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 4:01 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings What do the initials DAR stand for? It's designated aircraft R-------? I'm going to try to find the one for my area and I want it from the horse's mouth that he won't approve my wing before I do ANYTHING. ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Schreiber Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 1:39 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings Gary: I with you on this one! It certainly would be devastating to wind out that the spars are not acceptable. Here are a couple of possibilities. 1. Consider the spars as toast. Carefully cut the spars between each rib, then using whatever means necessary, remove the spar materal from each of the ribs. It would be alot of work, but certainly less than rebuilding all of the ribs. 2. Junk the whole wing assembly and order another set of finished ribs. I know that Edgar Howe sells a nice set of completed ribs (either the original Pietenpol airfoil or the Riblett 612 for around $300. I know that I sure wouldn't have the heart to redo the ribs. Chuck, if you decide to order the ribs, Edgar can be reached at 219-508-6880. He also will be at Brodhead with ribs for sale. Regards, Rick Schreiber ----- Original Message ----- From: Gboothe5 Sent: 3/28/2011 12:16:01 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings I'm trying to visualize what it must be like for Chuck, when he realizes, or learns from his DAR or FAA inspector, that his spars are un-airworthy, and what the possible resolves are. Is it worth trying to save all those ribs and figure out a way to remove the spar without damaging each rib? For me it would be, but I know others who actually enjoy making those crazy things! How about you, Chuck? Are you interested in putting forth the question and getting some ideas on how to cut the ribs loose? Gary Boothe http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http:/ /forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:23 PM PST US From: "Chuck Weyant" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings I might add that if you do auger in, it will be another one of those dangerous experimental airplanes that most of the public thinks should be outlawed. Think about the rest of us Chuck (if not yourself), build it right or don't build it at all. We don't need any more bad press than we already have. You owe it to the sport. CW -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 7:29 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings I've been biting my tongue on this one, but Chuck's responses warrant a comment, I think. Chuck wrote: > I mean, if I were building a 300-HP, 300-MPH airplane this would be a concern. The plane I'm building will probably never get to 100 MPH and will probably never see more than 1.5 - 2.0 Gs. Give me a break! > 1. If you were building a 300HP, 300MPH airplane, the spars would have been designed to handle the stresses that such a plane would encounter. But you're building a less-than-100HP, less-than-100MPH airplane that was designed as such. The spars as indicated in the plans are sized for the conditions that THIS airplane is expected to encounter. If you use materials that do not meet the normally accepted standards, as set out in AC 43.13-1b, then you are basically weakening the structure of the aircraft. 2. If you do a 60 degree banked turn, your airplane will see 2 Gs. If you make a steeper turn, you could easily see 3 Gs or more. Add some turbulence, and it gets even worse. General aviation light aircraft are designed to withstand +4 Gs. Using sub-standard spars can significantly reduce the stresses that the airframe can safely handle. Some parts of an aircraft can withstand some damage, and manage to make it safely back to earth. The spars are not among those parts. If a spar fails in flight, you (and any passenger) are toast. Hopefully the "break" you're asking for is not in one of your spars. Give this matter some serious thought, Chuck. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335269#335269 ________________________________ Message 60 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:45 PM PST US From: "Chris" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Almost done Dave Could you explain how you built your engine mount for that sweet looking real airplane engine? What kind of a jig did you use, how did you stop it from twisting when welding(is it gas or TIG welded). Details details details and I want larger pictures. YES, I said larger pictures so I can see some detail. Chris Sacramento, Ca Westcoastpiet.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dangerous Dave Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 4:09 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Almost done --> Not much more to do,should be done here shortly,dave -------- Covering Piet Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335240#335240 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/2011_03_27_07_55_54_338_459.jpg ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.