Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:55 AM - Re: Gilmer, Tx (Jim Markle)
2. 04:51 AM - large fuselage for Erkki (Douwe Blumberg)
3. 05:48 AM - Gilmer, Tx (Oscar Zuniga)
4. 06:24 AM - Re: large fuselage for Erkki (erkki67)
5. 06:36 AM - Sun N Fun Visit (Charles Waldo)
6. 08:02 AM - Re: View Questions, Fuselage Construction and so on.... (Billy McCaskill)
7. 08:49 AM - Re: View Questions, Fuselage Construction and so on.... (Bill Church)
8. 10:35 AM - Re: Re: View Questions, Fuselage Construction and so on.... (helspersew@aol.com)
9. 12:46 PM - Angle of Incident (Pieti Lowell)
10. 03:25 PM - Re: Re: View Questions, Fuselage Construction and so on.... (Charles Campbell)
11. 03:45 PM - Re: Re: View Questions, Fuselage Construction and so on.... (airlion)
12. 05:39 PM - Re: Re: Re: View Questions, Fuselage Construction and so on.... (Jack)
13. 06:53 PM - Re: Re: View Questions, Fuselage Construction and so on.... (mike Hardaway)
14. 06:54 PM - Gilmer, TX (Robert)
15. 07:16 PM - Re: Re: View Questions, Fuselage Construction and so on.... (Clif Dawson)
16. 08:05 PM - Re: View Questions, Fuselage Construction and so on.... (Billy McCaskill)
17. 08:11 PM - Re: Sun N Fun Visit (skipgadd@earthlink.net)
Message 1
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Can it possibly get any better than that?! What a great visit!
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Gboothe5
Sent: Apr 6, 2011 10:15 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Gilmer, Tx
OKShow of hands.Whos been to Gilmer, Tx.Yes,
I know Kevin, you have been there (you can put your hand down).but, who
else? So what are the odds that you put out a Marklegram that youre
going to be in Gilmer, Tx, and you want to know if there are any Piet builders
near. and one pops up!
Robert Caldwell is a Texas Gentleman who keeps his Stinson,
and part of his Piet in Gilmer. The rest is back at home base in Holly Lake,
Tx, about 20 miles away. When you go to see anyone in Texas, the first order of
business is to go git some Texas BBQ. Since it was a bit windy, Robert and I went
to git the obligatory BBQ, chat a bit, then return to the airport to check the
winds. They had died down significantly, so we jumped into his sturdy Stinson
and flew to Holly Lake. There a friend, with a newly updated Tri-pacer, loaned
his jeep and we drove to Roberts house and workshop to see the rest of
the project. Robert is an excellent craftsman, with some very cool ideas about
the pilot seatthats all Im going to say for now. Youll
have to wait until he finishes and he and Axel barnstorm to Brodhead.
Dont fail to check out Picture #4.Its a
Corvair that hasnt even broken its cra-Wait a minute.I
made a deal with Jack, and Rule #1: The Deals The Deal.
Signing off from beautiful Gilmer, Texas,
Gary from Cool, Ca
Message 2
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| Subject: | large fuselage for Erkki |
Hello Erkki,
Welcome to the Pietenpol group!
If you're not familiar with their story, a group in Florida pooled their
resources and time and built six Pietenpols labled "big Piets" because while
basically Pietenpols, they were modified in fairly significant ways to add
some extra room for larger people. They used welded steel fuselages.
Not sure who did the engineering, but Barry Davis who watches this list
could fill you in with more detail.
There are also some articles about then in the Brodhead Pietenpol Newsletter
which you should get.
I'd also suggest you contact the British Piet group. Great group of guys
and very helpful.
Except for not having a pop riveted fuselage, there aren't many planes
simpler to build (scratch built that is, not a kit) than a Pietenpol. After
all, that is what it was designed for, an average guy using average tools
and average materials. I'm not familiar with a two seat pop riveted plane
that fits your description. I did see some plans for a "sopwith tabloid"
(forgot the company's name but you can link to their site through the
www.dawnpatrol <http://www.dawnpatrol/> site) which is going to seat two
people side by side, but it's a biplane.
I'd suggest you get some plans and study them. Mr. Pietenpol designed a
steel tube fuselage which works fine and saves about 20 lbs over the wood,
and learning to weld isn't that big a deal, or you can always lean to tack
weld and then have a pro do the final welding.
Get the three Tony Bingiles books on homebuilding too and you can't go
wrong!
Good luck, and feel free to ask your questions.
Douwe
Message 3
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Well, I haven't actually been to Gilmer but I've been close. In a state
this big, that's about as good as it gets sometimes ;o) closest I've
been to Gilmer was when we drove through Carthage on the way to Corky's
in Shreveport. I'll bet Corky knows this gent who is building the Piet
in Gilmer.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
San Antonio, TX
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: large fuselage for Erkki |
Hello Douwe
Thank you very much for your input.
I wasn't aware about those builders in Florida, and for sure I would like to know
more about their fuselages.
I've found a aircraft which have my demanded riveted fuselage, but it's a biplane
(german Kiebitz ) as well, but I would prefer to have a parasol like the Pietenpol.
As the weight is an issue, at least here at France, and I would like to register
it here in our 2 seater ultralight class MTOW 1041.6lbs incl parachute and PAX.
This is the reason why I would prefer to have a Piet or look a like that's as light
as possible.
And to get there, I belive that the riveted Aluminium tube system is the way to
go.
And by the way, to rivet the airframe together is within reach of almost every
builder.
I've been following the Airdrome Aeroplanes for some while and even wrote to Mr.
Baslee, but the price he asked for a Parasol was out of my reach, for that price
I could buy a LSA, but as I'm not Bill Gates, I'll have to find an homebuilding
solution.
Bst rgds
Erkki
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336345#336345
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Well just got back from Florida. Wanted to thank "Skip" and the other
gentleman I met (Sorry we forgot your name) at the Sun n Fun Wood Working
shop for spending some time going over the Piet they where working on with
me. Not to mention the millions of questions I had on the design. "Skip"
is a very very patient man.....Sadly due to the weather issues I did not get
the "Waldo" in a Piet picture we where all looking for......maybe next
time...My sympathy goes out to all the pilots who lost aircraft down there,
it was truly a sad sight for my son and I to behold.......
Chuck Waldo
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: View Questions, Fuselage Construction and so on.... |
Hi Erkki,
Welcome to the list. As to someone designing an XXL fuselage for a Piet, I am
sure that it could be done but as to having the finished airplane weigh in at
480-500 lbs empty would be nearly impossible in my opinion. Even the lightest
Pietenpols on the list here, built according to the plans, weigh in at 585 lbs
or so, and up to as much as 730 lbs empty. The engines commonly used on Pietenpols
here commonly weigh 200-250 lbs. Lighter engine packages can cause significant
problems with weight and balance issues. If the engine you choose weighs
200 lbs, that leaves you only 280-300 lbs for the rest of the airframe,
instruments, covering, control systems, etc. I have read that the finished and
covered wing weighs over 100lbs alone. It doesn't seem that the Pietenpol
will fit into your weight requirements to be registered as an ultralight in your
country. I wish you luck in finding a 2 place airplane that will meet your
requirements for both pilot size and aircraft empty weight.
--------
Billy McCaskill
Urbana, IL
tail section almost done, starting on ribs soon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336355#336355
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| Subject: | Re: View Questions, Fuselage Construction and so on.... |
Erkki,
Like Billy said, enlarging the Pietenpol slightly would not be the biggest challenge
- but keeping the weight under 500 pounds will. Increasing the design by
say 5% overall would probably result in sufficient extra room to accommodate
a larger pilot, but the extra size will also result in the need for a more powerful
motor (= even more weight).
What you need to do is move to Canada. :)
Here in Canada, we may register a plans-built Pietenpol as a Basic Ultralight,
provided the take-off weight is 1200 pounds (544kg) or less. The "catch" is that
the only way two people can ever fly in a Basic Ultralight is if both occupants
hold a U/L pilot's license (or if the pilot has an U/L instructor's rating
and the aircraft is being used for training).
Unfortunately, I don't think there's any easy answer to your request. Maybe if
you fill the wings with helium...
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336358#336358
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: View Questions, Fuselage Construction and so on.... |
I think I heard of someone in the past even filling ping pong balls with he
lium. Their size and shape make it easy to fit inside all hollow places ins
ide the fuse and wings.
Dan Helsper
Puryear, TN
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
Sent: Thu, Apr 7, 2011 10:50 am
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: View Questions, Fuselage Construction and so o
n....
>
Erkki,
ike Billy said, enlarging the Pietenpol slightly would not be the biggest
hallenge - but keeping the weight under 500 pounds will. Increasing the des
ign
y say 5% overall would probably result in sufficient extra room to accommod
ate
larger pilot, but the extra size will also result in the need for a more
owerful motor (= even more weight).
hat you need to do is move to Canada. :)
ere in Canada, we may register a plans-built Pietenpol as a Basic Ultraligh
t,
rovided the take-off weight is 1200 pounds (544kg) or less. The "catch" is
that
he only way two people can ever fly in a Basic Ultralight is if both occupa
nts
old a U/L pilot's license (or if the pilot has an U/L instructor's rating a
nd
he aircraft is being used for training).
nfortunately, I don't think there's any easy answer to your request. Maybe
if
ou fill the wings with helium...
Bill C.
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336358#336358
-= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum -
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-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
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| Subject: | Angle of Incident |
Has there any 612 wings been flying yet ? I will be raising my rear Cabanes an
inch or so to get the angle if incident to one degree as suggested by Riblitt,
the Cabanes are now the length as on the drawings. This is far too much angle,
and requires a hefty forward stick pressure,
Pieti Lowell
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336366#336366
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: View Questions, Fuselage Construction and so on.... |
Dan, I think you are thinking of Amelia Earhart's plane on the round the
world jaunt. The wings were filled with ping pong balls but I don't
believe they had helium in them. do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: helspersew@aol.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: View Questions, Fuselage Construction
and so on....
I think I heard of someone in the past even filling ping pong balls
with helium. Their size and shape make it easy to fit inside all hollow
places inside the fuse and wings.
Dan Helsper
Puryear, TN
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
To: pietenpol-list <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thu, Apr 7, 2011 10:50 am
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: View Questions, Fuselage Construction and
so on....
<billspiet@sympatico.ca>
Erkki,
Like Billy said, enlarging the Pietenpol slightly would not be the
biggest
challenge - but keeping the weight under 500 pounds will. Increasing the
design
by say 5% overall would probably result in sufficient extra room to
accommodate
a larger pilot, but the extra size will also result in the need for a
more
powerful motor (= even more weight).
What you need to do is move to Canada. :)
Here in Canada, we may register a plans-built Pietenpol as a Basic
Ultralight,
provided the take-off weight is 1200 pounds (544kg) or less. The "catch"
is that
the only way two people can ever fly in a Basic Ultralight is if both
occupants
hold a U/L pilot's license (or if the pilot has an U/L instructor's
rating and
the aircraft is being used for training).
Unfortunately, I don't think there's any easy answer to your request.
Maybe if
you fill the wings with helium...
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336358#336358
" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
p://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: View Questions, Fuselage Construction and so on.... |
How many ping pong balls stuffed in the nose and leading edge of the wings
will it take to float a Piet if we decide to go to the Bahamas. That would
be a very interesting trip; I have been there in my boat. I am still optomi
stic. Gardiner.
--- On Thu, 4/7/11, helspersew@aol.com <helspersew@aol.com> wrote:
From: helspersew@aol.com <helspersew@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: View Questions, Fuselage Construction and
so on....
=0AI think I heard of someone in the past even filling ping pong balls with
helium. Their size and shape make it easy to fit inside all hollow places
inside the fuse and wings.=0A=0A=0A-=0A=0A=0ADan Helsper=0A=0A=0APuryear,
TN
=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A
=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message-----
=0AFrom: Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
=0ATo: pietenpol-list <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
=0ASent: Thu, Apr 7, 2011 10:50 am
=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: Re: View Questions, Fuselage Construction and s
o on....
=0A
patico.ca>
Erkki,
Like Billy said, enlarging the Pietenpol slightly would not be the biggest
challenge - but keeping the weight under 500 pounds will. Increasing the de
sign
by say 5% overall would probably result in sufficient extra room to accommo
date
a larger pilot, but the extra size will also result in the need for a more
powerful motor (= even more weight).
What you need to do is move to Canada. :)
Here in Canada, we may register a plans-built Pietenpol as a Basic Ultralig
ht,
provided the take-off weight is 1200 pounds (544kg) or less. The "catch" is
that
the only way two people can ever fly in a Basic Ultralight is if both occup
ants
hold a U/L pilot's license (or if the pilot has an U/L instructor's rating
and
the aircraft is being used for training).
Unfortunately, I don't think there's any easy answer to your request. Maybe
if
you fill the wings with helium...
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336358#336358
" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
p://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=0A=0A=0A
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: View Questions, Fuselage Construction and |
so on....
Gardiner, let's make the trip together, that has been a goal of mine since
starting the Piet.
Jack
DSM
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of airlion
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: View Questions, Fuselage
Construction and so on....
How many ping pong balls stuffed in the nose and leading edge of the wings
will it take to float a Piet if we decide to go to the Bahamas. That would
be a very interesting trip; I have been there in my boat. I am still
optomistic. Gardiner.
--- On Thu, 4/7/11, helspersew@aol.com <helspersew@aol.com> wrote:
From: helspersew@aol.com <helspersew@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: View Questions, Fuselage Construction and
so on....
I think I heard of someone in the past even filling ping pong balls with
helium. Their size and shape make it easy to fit inside all hollow places
inside the fuse and wings.
Dan Helsper
Puryear, TN
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
Sent: Thu, Apr 7, 2011 10:50 am
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: View Questions, Fuselage Construction and so
on....
Erkki,
Like Billy said, enlarging the Pietenpol slightly would not be the biggest
challenge - but keeping the weight under 500 pounds will. Increasing the
design
by say 5% overall would probably result in sufficient extra room to
accommodate
a larger pilot, but the extra size will also result in the need for a more
powerful motor (= even more weight).
What you need to do is move to Canada. :)
Here in Canada, we may register a plans-built Pietenpol as a Basic
Ultralight,
provided the take-off weight is 1200 pounds (544kg) or less. The "catch"
is that
the only way two people can ever fly in a Basic Ultralight is if both
occupants
hold a U/L pilot's license (or if the pilot has an U/L instructor's rating
and
the aircraft is being used for training).
Unfortunately, I don't think there's any easy answer to your request.
Maybe if
you fill the wings with helium...
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336358#336358
" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
p://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://wwgt;
<http://forums.matronics.c==========%3cbr%3e%3cbr%3e%3c/font%3e%3c/b%3e%3cfo
nt%20color=>
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Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: View Questions, Fuselage Construction and so on.... |
A ping-pong ball is 40mm or 1.57 in. in diameter, giving a volume of 2.04
cu. in. This will displace about 0.07385 lb of water. That volume of air
weighs about 0.0000907 lb. That volume of helium weighs about .0000125 lb.
Each air-filled ping-pong ball would supply 0.0758 lb of buoyancy in sea
water while each helium-filled ball would buoy 0.0759 lb.
If we assume that a Piet in sea water is 600 lb of dead weight (no buoyancy
contribution from wood or fuel...or pilot), it would take 7918 air-filled
ping-pong balls or 7909 helium-filled ping pong balls to provide neutral
buoyancy.
If a pilot wants to have some of his or her body out of the water while
waiting for rescue, he or she should add a couple of thousand balls.
Mike Hardaway
On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 3:35 PM, airlion <airlion@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> How many ping pong balls stuffed in the nose and leading edge of the wings
> will it take to float a Piet if we decide to go to the Bahamas. That would
> be a very interesting trip; I have been there in my boat. I am still
> optomistic. Gardiner.
>
> --- On *Thu, 4/7/11, helspersew@aol.com <helspersew@aol.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: helspersew@aol.com <helspersew@aol.com>
>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: View Questions, Fuselage Construction and
> so on....
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Date: Thursday, April 7, 2011, 1:27 PM
>
> I think I heard of someone in the past even filling ping pong balls with
> helium. Their size and shape make it easy to fit inside all hollow places
> inside the fuse and wings.
>
> Dan Helsper
> Puryear, TN
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
> To: pietenpol-list <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thu, Apr 7, 2011 10:50 am
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: View Questions, Fuselage Construction and so
> on....
>
>
> Erkki,
> Like Billy said, enlarging the Pietenpol slightly would not be the biggest
> challenge - but keeping the weight under 500 pounds will. Increasing the design
> by say 5% overall would probably result in sufficient extra room to accommodate
> a larger pilot, but the extra size will also result in the need for a more
> powerful motor (= even more weight).
> What you need to do is move to Canada. :)
> Here in Canada, we may register a plans-built Pietenpol as a Basic Ultralight,
>
> provided the take-off weight is 1200 pounds (544kg) or less. The "catch" is that
> the only way two people can ever fly in a Basic Ultralight is if both occupants
> hold a U/L pilot's license (or if the pilot has an U/L instructor's rating and
> the aircraft is being used for training).
> Unfortunately, I don't think there's any easy answer to your request. Maybe if
> you fill the wings with helium...
>
> Bill C.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336358#336358
>
>
> " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> p://forums.matronics.com
> blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
> *
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Message 14
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I suppose I must give this a try (first time contributor)... especially
following so nice a narrative by Mr. Boothe and being so kind to mention
me and my Piet project. I have monitored this thread for some time now
and have gleaned many great ideas and facts from it as my building
progress moves along. I can truthfully say that only my trips to
Brodhead the last two years have proven more valuable. (of course a
close third is the visit by Kevin Purtee to Gilmer on a cold
winter=99s day in his outstanding Piet). I take pride in being
counted among all you builders and flyers of Bernard=99s creation.
I can only dream and hope that I will wing my way to Brodhead in a
year, or few, in my own Piet.
So, thanks to you all, and now that you all know about Gilmer, TX...
don=99t be strangers. I am currently working to put my fuselage
on wheels. Welding the tubular struts for the Cub style LG. I just
completed the fabrication of a 15 gal. fuel tank that will fit in a
36=9D wide center section. I am awaiting my welder to complete
the tank (I refuse to attempt to weld aluminum... I do well with 4130
with a gas set-up, but will let the TIG guys do the Al.)
I hope to use Covair power, having acquired a partially converted
=98Vair that attended a Corvair College in 2001 but never made it
all the way to running on the stand.
Oh yeah, the seat thing... well, its just my attempt to be comfortable
if and when I make that long cross country. I took my lead from the
Bingelis books and applied a little creative woodwork (isn=99t
that what we all do?). Of course I won=99t really be as
comfortable as I want until I fly it... sitting in it and making
airplane noises is probably not a good indicator.
A big thank you to Gary B. for stopping by, and even though California
is a long way from Gilmer, you never know when two Piet
builder=99s paths will cross.
Robert Caldwell
=9CBrodhead in 2012=9D
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: View Questions, Fuselage Construction and so on.... |
Oh, crap! Here we go again! Corky where are you!!??
Hahahahahahaha!
Clif
If we assume that a Piet in sea water is 600 lb of dead weight (no
buoyancy contribution from wood or fuel...or pilot), it would take 7918
air-filled ping-pong balls or 7909 helium-filled ping pong balls to
provide neutral buoyancy.
Mike Hardaway
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: View Questions, Fuselage Construction and so on.... |
Wow Mike,
You could have built 2 ribs in the amount of time it took to do all that math on
the ping pong balls and bouyancy!
Speaking of ribs, my wife is out of town tomorrow and Saturday, I think I shall
try to build my rib jig and perhaps a rib to hang on the wall since it will just
be out of some scrap pine I have laying around. Haven't gotten my capstrip
yet.
Okay, everybody back to building now!
do not archive
--------
Billy McCaskill
Urbana, IL
tail section almost done, starting on ribs soon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336382#336382
Message 17
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Charles,
You are welcome, I enjoyed talking Piets with you and your son. Thanks again for
the computer generated Piet you gave me, it will be on my shop wall as soon
as I can make a frame for it.
I dont remember who was in the shop when you were there, is he in the attached
pic by Jim Scroggins? From L to R, myself, Art, Dick, Dave, and Randy.
Skip
----- Original Message -----
From: Charles Waldo
Sent: 4/7/2011 9:37:51 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Sun N Fun Visit
Well just got back from Florida. Wanted to thank "Skip" and the other gentleman
I met (Sorry we forgot your name) at the Sun n Fun Wood Working shop for spending
some time going over the Piet they where working on with me. Not to mention
the millions of questions I had on the design. "Skip" is a very very patient
man.....Sadly due to the weather issues I did not get the "Waldo" in a Piet
picture we where all looking for......maybe next time...My sympathy goes out
to all the pilots who lost aircraft down there, it was truly a sad sight for my
son and I to behold.......
Chuck Waldo
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