---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 05/25/11: 51 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:48 AM - Pietenpol Scout discovery in Australia! (bubbleboy) 2. 03:48 AM - Re: first time on list (Jack) 3. 03:56 AM - Dihedral vs. crosswind (John Franklin) 4. 04:28 AM - Re: ping pong balls? (jarheadpilot82) 5. 04:32 AM - Welcome Bob!! (Douwe Blumberg) 6. 04:32 AM - Re: Dihedral vs. crosswind (Jack Phillips) 7. 04:43 AM - Re: Dihedral vs. crosswind (jarheadpilot82) 8. 05:00 AM - first time on list (Lawrence Williams) 9. 05:02 AM - Re: first time on list (Gene Rambo) 10. 05:16 AM - Re: Dihedral vs. crosswind (jarheadpilot82) 11. 05:31 AM - Re: first time on list (airlion) 12. 06:03 AM - Re: Re: Dihedral vs. crosswind (Jack Phillips) 13. 06:17 AM - Re: first time on list (Jack Phillips) 14. 06:20 AM - Re: Fitting Wings Soon...advise? (Michael Perez) 15. 06:25 AM - Fw: Copper Wire for all my Texas buddies off topic mportant historical find (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 16. 06:31 AM - Re: first time on list (airlion) 17. 06:35 AM - Ryan and Jack (K5YAC) 18. 06:47 AM - Re: Dihedral vs. crosswind (jarheadpilot82) 19. 07:14 AM - Re: first time on list (Gboothe5) 20. 07:22 AM - Re: first time on list (Jack Phillips) 21. 07:24 AM - Re: first time on list (Jack Phillips) 22. 07:34 AM - one man's leading and trailing edge ideas for Pietenpol (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP]) 23. 08:06 AM - Re: one man's leading and trailing edge ideas for Pietenpol (Michael Perez) 24. 08:14 AM - Re: Ryan and Jack (Bill Church) 25. 08:19 AM - Re: Re: Dihedral vs. crosswind (Gboothe5) 26. 08:29 AM - Re: first time on list (airlion) 27. 08:33 AM - Re: Pietenpol Scout discovery in Australia! (Jim Markle) 28. 08:33 AM - Re: Re: Greetings, Fellow Texican Pietenpolers! (Jim Boyer) 29. 08:36 AM - Re: Re: Greetings, Fellow Texican Pietenpolers! (Jim Boyer) 30. 08:44 AM - Re: first time on list (Jim Boyer) 31. 08:46 AM - Re: first time on list (Jim Boyer) 32. 09:31 AM - Re: Dihedral vs. crosswind (Bill Church) 33. 09:39 AM - Re: first time on list (Jack Phillips) 34. 09:50 AM - Re: Re: Dihedral vs. crosswind (Jack Phillips) 35. 10:05 AM - Re: one man's leading and trailing edge ideas for Pietenpol (K5YAC) 36. 10:11 AM - Re: Re: first time on list (Jack) 37. 10:19 AM - Re: Re: first time on list (Jack Phillips) 38. 10:31 AM - Trailing edge treatment (helspersew@aol.com) 39. 11:11 AM - Re: Trailing edge treatment (K5YAC) 40. 11:21 AM - Re: Pietenpol Scout discovery in Australia! (Ray Krause) 41. 12:08 PM - Re: Re: Trailing edge treatment (helspersew@aol.com) 42. 12:11 PM - Re: first time on list (kevinpurtee) 43. 12:12 PM - Re: Trailing edge treatment (kevinpurtee) 44. 12:55 PM - Re: Re: first time on list (Gboothe5) 45. 01:24 PM - Re: first time on list (K5YAC) 46. 03:38 PM - Snapfish album (Woodflier@aol.com) 47. 04:01 PM - Re: Re: Greetings, Fellow Texican Pietenpolers! (helspersew@aol.com) 48. 04:30 PM - Re: Snapfish album (Scott Knowlton) 49. 06:27 PM - R/C Piet Kit For Sale (not mine) (wayne@taildraggersinc.com) 50. 10:36 PM - First Cuts... (Mark Roberts) 51. 11:37 PM - Re: First Cuts... (Billy McCaskill) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:48:19 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Scout discovery in Australia! From: "bubbleboy" Hi all....while trying to find someone to help me lace and true my nice new Buchanan spoked rims, I went in to the local motorcycle shop. I asked one of the guys behind the counter if they lace rims to which they replied we certainly do! We will get the boss for you as he likes "these old weird planes" (Their words). Boss comes out and I show him a picture of what im building and he instantly says "Thats a Pietenpol"! Of course I replied it was. We then went on to chat for 30 mins about how he has a Pietenpol Scout built in 1933 and is fitted with a 50hp 9 cylinder radial. Apparently the engine was freshened up in 1959 and then from 1961 till the 1990's when he obtained it, it hung from the ceiling of a local museum come bric brac store. He acquired it with the plan to do a complete restoration one day. He said time has not allowed him to start this yet but each week he goes out and uncovers it and turns the prop over by hand to keep the engine turning. He is a motorcycle mechanic so I hope he has lubed the inside of it. Anyway I thought I would share my find and he has invited me over to have a look so will ask if I may take some pics and post them on here. Scotty -------- Scotty Tamworth, Australia Building a Corvair Powered Pietenpol Air Camper www.scottyspietenpol.com Rudder, Vert stab, Elevators and 22 Ribs built... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340897#340897 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:48:05 AM PST US From: "Jack" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: first time on list Welcome Bob, this is a great group. If you would like to be included in the Piet Directory fill out the attached Excel file and return to me. I will then send you the populated listing. We have 100 plus listings with some recent updates. I will be sending out a updated listing next week to all on the list. Welcome Jack Do not archive _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert S. Edson Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 8:11 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: first time on list My name is Bob Edson and I live in Branson Mo. I started my piet in August 2010 and have all the frame completed and on the wooden gear with 21 in. spoked wheels. The engine is an 0200 with 20 min. time on it. Just finished the cowl and I'm installing the instruments and engine controls. I hope to have it finished by winter. All wood is sitka and the ribs are Riblet. Having a great time--got started a little later than most people , I'm 76 years old. Bob Edson ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:56:45 AM PST US From: John Franklin Subject: Pietenpol-List: Dihedral vs. crosswind Pieter's, >From my understanding of aerodynamics, dihedral adds some stability to the roll control of an airplane. My question is, does the dihedral help or hinder a Piet during crosswind landings? I'm building a 3-piece wing and was planning on maybe one degree of dihedral but wanted to get opinions on the crosswind effect. Thanks, John F. Richmond soon to be 4TA0 Prairie Aire, TX GN-1/Corvair ________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:28:26 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: ping pong balls? From: "jarheadpilot82" Dan, That was indeed a beautiful airplane. I looked at it and wondered how those airfoils on the wing struts would do on a Pietenpol. Just thinkin'... -------- Semper Fi, Terry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340902#340902 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:32:06 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Welcome Bob!! Welcome Bob!! My hat's off to you and can't wait to follow your progress!!! Douwe ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:32:59 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Dihedral vs. crosswind Neither. I've got a slight amount of dihedral in mine and can't tell it has any effect at all. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Franklin Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:55 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Dihedral vs. crosswind Pieter's, >From my understanding of aerodynamics, dihedral adds some stability to the roll control of an airplane. My question is, does the dihedral help or hinder a Piet during crosswind landings? I'm building a 3-piece wing and was planning on maybe one degree of dihedral but wanted to get opinions on the crosswind effect. Thanks, John F. Richmond soon to be 4TA0 Prairie Aire, TX GN-1/Corvair ________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:43:45 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dihedral vs. crosswind From: "jarheadpilot82" I am just wondering, why one degree? Why not two or three? I guess my point is be careful making aerodynamic changes using the TLAR method (That Looks About Right). I am no aerodynamicist, so your idea may be great one. But be careful. One thought - Mark Roberts contacted Harry Riblett and as I understand it, Harry was very gracious in answering questions. Maybe you could speak with Harry and get his thoughts on the use of dihedral in the wing. Let us know what you find out- your idea might be a really good one that we all should think about. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340906#340906 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:00:31 AM PST US From: Lawrence Williams Subject: Pietenpol-List: first time on list Bob- Branson isn't too far from Little Rock so if you ever find yourself in the central Arkansas area, stop by. I haven't found many Pietenpolers in the area so a little like-minded socialising would be nice. If you fly in I'm at 1AR9. We have two grass runways and a guest apartment in the hangar. C'mon down! Larry W. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:02:05 AM PST US From: Gene Rambo Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: first time on list Jack=2C I was finally able to download and fill out the directory. Please add me to the list. Gene Rambo do not archive From: jack@textors.com Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: first time on list Welcome Bob=2C this is a great group. If you would like to be included in the Piet Directory fill out the attached Excel file and return to me. I wi ll then send you the populated listing. We have 100 plus listings with som e recent updates. I will be sending out a updated listing next week to all on the list. Welcome Jack Do not archive From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert S. Edson Sent: Tuesday=2C May 24=2C 2011 8:11 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: first time on list My name is Bob Edson and I live in Branson Mo. I started my piet in August 2010 and have all the frame completed and on the wooden gear with 21 in. sp oked wheels. The engine is an 0200 with 20 min. time on it. Just finished t he cowl and I'm installing the instruments and engine controls. I hope to have it finished by winter. All wood is sitka and the ribs are Riblet. Havi ng a great time--got started a little later than most people =2C I'm 76 yea rs old. 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:16:44 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dihedral vs. crosswind From: "jarheadpilot82" Jack's answer came in while I was posting, so I was not able to read it first. So I guess maybe the question is a two-parter- 1. Would dihedral help the Pietenpol wing? 2. If so, how much dihedral is needed before any effect is noted? It still would not hurt to contact Harry Riblett, or some other expert, if for nother reason than, he might help you avoid unnecessary work if the dihedral has little benefit. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340911#340911 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:31:55 AM PST US From: airlion Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: first time on list You are a real inspiration Bob. I am 78 going on 79 come nov. and I am starting to rebuild after that tornado in Lakeland. Got lots to do. Keep at it. Seems like you are building faster than I did at 5 years and it took only 15 seconds to tear it up. Cheers, Gardiner Mason ________________________________ From: Robert S. Edson Sent: Tue, May 24, 2011 9:10:53 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: first time on list My name is Bob Edson and I live in Branson Mo. I started my piet in August 2010 and have all the frame completed and on the wooden gear with 21 in. spoked wheels. The engine is an 0200 with 20 min. time on it. Just finished the cowl and I'm installing the instruments and engine controls. I hope to have it finished by winter. All wood is sitka and the ribs are Riblet. Having a great time--got started a little later than most people , I'm 76 years old. Bob Edson ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:03:53 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dihedral vs. crosswind Dihedral is not very important or useful for a Pietenpol. The reason is that parasol wing monoplanes exhibit what is called the "Pendulum Effect", because the vertical center of gravity is below the plane of the wing, causing the same righting moments as dihedral is supposed to accomplish. This is why you see much less dihedral used in high wing cabin monoplanes that in low wing aircraft. Parasol wing aircraft have an even stronger pendulum effect than high wing cabin jobs, since their CG is lower without the weight of all that cabin structure so high. Does that make sense? Most people that add dihedral to a Pietenpol do it to counter the supposed "droop" look that a straight wing has. I myself added 1/2" dihedral (0.16=B0) per side to mine to avoid this, before realizing that this effect is not apparent when looking at airplanes in the flesh, but shows up in photographs when short focal length (wide angle) lenses are used. Look at some one piece wing Pietenpols such as Dan Helsper's at Brodhead in 56 days and you will see what I mean. Dihedral is not needed for stability purposes for Pietenpols, and to get any more stability would require such a steep angle as to look funny. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jarheadpilot82 Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 8:14 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dihedral vs. crosswind Jack's answer came in while I was posting, so I was not able to read it first. So I guess maybe the question is a two-parter- 1. Would dihedral help the Pietenpol wing? 2. If so, how much dihedral is needed before any effect is noted? It still would not hurt to contact Harry Riblett, or some other expert, if for nother reason than, he might help you avoid unnecessary work if the dihedral has little benefit. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340911#340911 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:17:25 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: first time on list Gardiner, You won't have to wait so long for your ribs. Ryan Mueller last night ordered enough spruce, plywood and T-88 to make a set of ribs and had it sent to my house. I've pulled my old rib jig off the shelf and as soon as the wood gets here I will start building your ribs. I hope to have them finished before Brodhead and can ship them to you (I don't think a stack of 5' long ribs will fit in your Cessna 140 - I used to have a 140 and its cabin is only 35" wide). You are too valuable to this list to allow you to not get your Piet back in the air. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of airlion Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 8:30 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: first time on list You are a real inspiration Bob. I am 78 going on 79 come nov. and I am starting to rebuild after that tornado in Lakeland. Got lots to do. Keep at it. Seems like you are building faster than I did at 5 years and it took only 15 seconds to tear it up. Cheers, Gardiner Mason _____ From: Robert S. Edson Sent: Tue, May 24, 2011 9:10:53 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: first time on list My name is Bob Edson and I live in Branson Mo. I started my piet in August 2010 and have all the frame completed and on the wooden gear with 21 in. spoked wheels. The engine is an 0200 with 20 min. time on it. Just finished the cowl and I'm installing the instruments and engine controls. I hope to have it finished by winter. All wood is sitka and the ribs are Riblet. Having a great time--got started a little later than most people , I'm 76 years old. Bob Edson ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:20:00 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fitting Wings Soon...advise? Thanks to you all. From what I have gathered so far, may plan is as follows : Level fuse. in all planes. (no pun intended) Install and square/plum CS to fuse. I figure, after consulting with Mr. Cuy, using a 2" aft rake on the c abanes. Hand tighten the drag cables on the wing and fit wing to fuse. Dial in wing, (straight, dihedral, wash out...not sure on these yet)- tighten drag cables, make/fit wing struts. That is the basic plan, lots to do prior to all the above. Waiting on the r ain to stop so I can move cars around and move fuselage into garage. Michael Perez =0AKaretaker Aero =0Awww.karetakeraero.com =0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:25:14 AM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fwd: Copper Wire for all my Texas buddies off topic mportant historical find Sorry guys but with all this talk about moving to Texas I thought I should share this rather off topic bit of Texas information, It is off topic so I will apologize in advance for what I am about to post as it is an integral part of Texas history. TEXAS PROUD After having dug to a depth of 100 feet last year, New York scientists found traces of copper wire dating back 100 years and came to the conclusion that their ancestors already had a telephone network more than 100 years ago. Not to be outdone by the New Yorkers, a California archaeologist dug to a depth of 200 feet and shortly after, a story in the LA Times read: "California archaeologists' discovery of 200 year old copper wire, have concluded that their ancestors already had an advanced high-tech communications network a hundred years earlier than the New Yorkers." One week later, A local newspaper in Texas reported the following: "After digging as deep as 300 feet in his pasture near Lubbock , TX , Bubba, a self-taught archaeologist, reported that he found absolutely nothing. Bubba has therefore concluded that 300 years ago, Texas had already gone wireless." Just makes you proud to live in (or be from) Texas , doesn't it? Do not archive Les you live in Texas! ____________________________________ From: innk60@yahoo.com Sent: 5/24/2011 4:03:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time Subj: Copper Wire TEXAS PROUD After having dug to a depth of 100 feet last year, New York scientists found traces of copper wire dating back 100 years and came to the conclusion that their ancestors already had a telephone network more than 100 years ago. Not to be outdone by the New Yorkers, a California archaeologist dug to a depth of 200 feet and shortly after, a story in the LA Times read: "California archaeologists' discovery of 200 year old copper wire, have concluded that their ancestors already had an advanced high-tech communications network a hundred years earlier than the New Yorkers." One week later, A local newspaper in Texas reported the following: "After digging as deep as 300 feet in his pasture near Lubbock , TX , Bubba, a self-taught archaeologist, reported that he found absolutely nothing. Bubba has therefore concluded that 300 years ago, Texas had already gone wireless." Just makes you proud to live in (or be from) Texas , doesn't it? ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:11 AM PST US From: airlion Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: first time on list Thanks Jack. I am saving the spars and wing tip on that one wing and all t he =0Afittings. I will be driving to Brodhead with my wife Susan AND CAMPIN G OUT. =0ACheers, Gardiner=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________ =0AFrom: Jack Phillips =0ATo: pietenpol-list@matron ics.com=0ASent: Wed, May 25, 2011 9:14:52 AM=0ASubject: RE: Pietenpol-List: first time on list=0A=0A =0AGardiner,=0A =0AYou won=99t have to wait so long for your ribs. Ryan Mueller last night ordered =0Aenough spruce, plywood and T-88 to make a set of ribs and had it sent to my =0Ahouse. I =99ve pulled my old rib jig off the shelf and as soon as the wood get s =0Ahere I will start building your ribs. I hope to have them finished be fore =0ABrodhead and can ship them to you (I don=99t think a stack of 5=99 long ribs will =0Afit in your Cessna 140 =93 I used to ha ve a 140 and its cabin is only 35=9D wide).=0A =0AYou are too valuabl e to this list to allow you to not get your Piet back in the =0Aair.=0A =0A Jack Phillips=0ANX899JP =9CIcarus Plummet=9D=0ASmith Mountain Lake, Virginia=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A =0AFrom:owner-p ietenpol-list-server@matronics.com =0A[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of airlion=0ASent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 8:30 AM =0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: first ti me on list=0A =0AYou are a real inspiration Bob. I am 78 going on 79 come n ov. and I am starting =0Ato rebuild after that tornado in Lakeland . Got l ots to do. Keep at it. Seems =0Alike you are building faster than I did at 5 years and it took only 15 seconds =0Ato tear it up. Cheers, Gardiner Maso n=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A =0AFrom:Robert S. Edson =0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tue, May 2 4, 2011 9:10:53 PM=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: first time on list=0AMy name is Bob Edson and I live in Branson Mo. I started my piet in August =0A201 0 and have all the frame completed and on the wooden gear with 21 in. spoke d =0Awheels. The engine is an 0200 with 20 min. time on it. Just finished t he cowl =0Aand I'm installing the instruments and engine controls. I hope to have it =0Afinished by winter. All wood is sitka and the ribs are Rible t. Having a great =0Atime--got started a little later than most people , I' ===== =0A ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:40 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ryan and Jack From: "K5YAC" I don't think this deserves to be buried in another unrelated thread. One of the many (but also one of the finest) examples of camaraderie I've seen on this list. You guys really are something else. Speaking of Gardiner's Piet... it made the papers again. This time in Sport Aviation. Something to do with tie downs, but I haven't read the article yet. pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net wrote: > Gardiner, > > You wont have to wait so long for your ribs. Ryan Mueller last night ordered enough spruce, plywood and T-88 to make a set of ribs and had it sent to my house. Ive pulled my old rib jig off the shelf and as soon as the wood gets here I will start building your ribs. I hope to have them finished before Brodhead and can ship them to you (I dont think a stack of 5 long ribs will fit in your Cessna 140 I used to have a 140 and its cabin is only 35 wide). > > You are too valuable to this list to allow you to not get your Piet back in the air. > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP Icarus Plummet > Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340924#340924 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:54 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dihedral vs. crosswind From: "jarheadpilot82" Jack, Great explanation! Your discussion about parasol wing makes perfect sense. Thanks for the input. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340928#340928 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:04 AM PST US From: "Gboothe5" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: first time on list Jack, I'd offer to help, but poor Gardiner wouldn't get his ribs for another 3 years! You & Ryan..I don't know what to say.just proud to know you! Gary From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Phillips Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:15 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: first time on list Gardiner, You won't have to wait so long for your ribs. Ryan Mueller last night ordered enough spruce, plywood and T-88 to make a set of ribs and had it sent to my house. I've pulled my old rib jig off the shelf and as soon as the wood gets here I will start building your ribs. I hope to have them finished before Brodhead and can ship them to you (I don't think a stack of 5' long ribs will fit in your Cessna 140 - I used to have a 140 and its cabin is only 35" wide). You are too valuable to this list to allow you to not get your Piet back in the air. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of airlion Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 8:30 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: first time on list You are a real inspiration Bob. I am 78 going on 79 come nov. and I am starting to rebuild after that tornado in Lakeland. Got lots to do. Keep at it. Seems like you are building faster than I did at 5 years and it took only 15 seconds to tear it up. Cheers, Gardiner Mason _____ From: Robert S. Edson Sent: Tue, May 24, 2011 9:10:53 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: first time on list My name is Bob Edson and I live in Branson Mo. I started my piet in August 2010 and have all the frame completed and on the wooden gear with 21 in. spoked wheels. The engine is an 0200 with 20 min. time on it. Just finished the cowl and I'm installing the instruments and engine controls. I hope to have it finished by winter. All wood is sitka and the ribs are Riblet. Having a great time--got started a little later than most people , I'm 76 years old. Bob Edson ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:22:32 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: first time on list Gardiner, What kind of treatment to the trailing edge tips of the ribs do you want? Do you want them cut off square, or a step included to attach a wooden trailing edge? Or should I just bring them to a point and let you do as you wish with them when you get the ribs? I used preformed aluminum trailing edge material on mine and would definitely NOT do that again - it is too hard to keep it from creeping under fabric tension (look at the little puckers at each rib on my trailing edges - those puckers were not there when I first covered it), and it is too easily damaged when an idiot walks into it, as happened this past weekend at the Lynchburg Airshow. I just hope it hurt him as much as it hurt my airplane. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of airlion Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:29 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: first time on list Thanks Jack. I am saving the spars and wing tip on that one wing and all the fittings. I will be driving to Brodhead with my wife Susan AND CAMPING OUT. Cheers, Gardiner _____ From: Jack Phillips Sent: Wed, May 25, 2011 9:14:52 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: first time on list Gardiner, You won't have to wait so long for your ribs. Ryan Mueller last night ordered enough spruce, plywood and T-88 to make a set of ribs and had it sent to my house. I've pulled my old rib jig off the shelf and as soon as the wood gets here I will start building your ribs. I hope to have them finished before Brodhead and can ship them to you (I don't think a stack of 5' long ribs will fit in your Cessna 140 - I used to have a 140 and its cabin is only 35" wide). You are too valuable to this list to allow you to not get your Piet back in the air. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of airlion Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 8:30 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: first time on list You are a real inspiration Bob. I am 78 going on 79 come nov. and I am starting to rebuild after that tornado in Lakeland . Got lots to do. Keep at it. Seems like you are building faster than I did at 5 years and it took only 15 seconds to tear it up. Cheers, Gardiner Mason _____ From: Robert S. Edson Sent: Tue, May 24, 2011 9:10:53 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: first time on list My name is Bob Edson and I live in Branson Mo. I started my piet in August 2010 and have all the frame completed and on the wooden gear with 21 in. spoked wheels. The engine is an 0200 with 20 min. time on it. Just finished the cowl and I'm installing the instruments and engine controls. I hope to have it finished by winter. All wood is sitka and the ribs are Riblet. Having a great time--got started a little later than most people , I'm 76 years old. Bob Edson http://====================== ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:24:49 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: first time on list We can just have a little Mutual Admiration Society party at Brodhead. Actually, Gary you started it when you sent me that piece of streamline tubing to use on my RV-10 (it fits perfectly, by the way). This is what this group is all about, helping each other. And this is what sets Pietenpol People apart from all the other groups on the 'net. Jack _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gboothe5 Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 10:11 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: first time on list Jack, I'd offer to help, but poor Gardiner wouldn't get his ribs for another 3 years! You & Ryan..I don't know what to say.just proud to know you! Gary From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Phillips Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:15 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: first time on list Gardiner, You won't have to wait so long for your ribs. Ryan Mueller last night ordered enough spruce, plywood and T-88 to make a set of ribs and had it sent to my house. I've pulled my old rib jig off the shelf and as soon as the wood gets here I will start building your ribs. I hope to have them finished before Brodhead and can ship them to you (I don't think a stack of 5' long ribs will fit in your Cessna 140 - I used to have a 140 and its cabin is only 35" wide). You are too valuable to this list to allow you to not get your Piet back in the air. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of airlion Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 8:30 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: first time on list You are a real inspiration Bob. I am 78 going on 79 come nov. and I am starting to rebuild after that tornado in Lakeland. Got lots to do. Keep at it. Seems like you are building faster than I did at 5 years and it took only 15 seconds to tear it up. Cheers, Gardiner Mason _____ From: Robert S. Edson Sent: Tue, May 24, 2011 9:10:53 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: first time on list My name is Bob Edson and I live in Branson Mo. I started my piet in August 2010 and have all the frame completed and on the wooden gear with 21 in. spoked wheels. The engine is an 0200 with 20 min. time on it. Just finished the cowl and I'm installing the instruments and engine controls. I hope to have it finished by winter. All wood is sitka and the ribs are Riblet. Having a great time--got started a little later than most people , I'm 76 years old. Bob Edson http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:46 AM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: one man's leading and trailing edge ideas for Pietenpol [cid:image007.jpg@01CC1AC7.02046BC0] [cid:image008.png@01CC1AC7.02046B C0] [cid:image009.jpg@01CC1AC7.02046BC0] ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:22 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: one man's leading and trailing edge ideas for Pietenpol Another... Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:57 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ryan and Jack From: "Bill Church" What a team! Knowing both of these gentlemen quite well, I have to comment on how out of character this is for both of them. ... just kidding. :) I'm not really surprised at all. Nice move gents. BC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340950#340950 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:51 AM PST US From: "Gboothe5" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dihedral vs. crosswind Jack said it all, but I thought I would share this interesting picture I took at Brodhead =9209. I believe it=92s the Piet Rob Bach was flying, and not sure he still has it.. Rob Bach - 3, Dihedral.jpg Now=85that=92s some dihedral!!! Gary Still in Cool From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Phillips Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:01 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dihedral vs. crosswind Dihedral is not very important or useful for a Pietenpol. The reason is that parasol wing monoplanes exhibit what is called the "Pendulum Effect", because the vertical center of gravity is below the plane of the wing, causing the same righting moments as dihedral is supposed to accomplish. This is why you see much less dihedral used in high wing cabin monoplanes that in low wing aircraft. Parasol wing aircraft have an even stronger pendulum effect than high wing cabin jobs, since their CG is lower without the weight of all that cabin structure so high. Does that make sense? Most people that add dihedral to a Pietenpol do it to counter the supposed "droop" look that a straight wing has. I myself added 1/2" dihedral (0.16=B0) per side to mine to avoid this, before realizing that this effect is not apparent when looking at airplanes in the flesh, but shows up in photographs when short focal length (wide angle) lenses are used. Look at some one piece wing Pietenpols such as Dan Helsper's at Brodhead in 56 days and you will see what I mean. Dihedral is not needed for stability purposes for Pietenpols, and to get any more stability would require such a steep angle as to look funny. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jarheadpilot82 Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 8:14 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dihedral vs. crosswind Jack's answer came in while I was posting, so I was not able to read it first. So I guess maybe the question is a two-parter- 1. Would dihedral help the Pietenpol wing? 2. If so, how much dihedral is needed before any effect is noted? It still would not hurt to contact Harry Riblett, or some other expert, if for nother reason than, he might help you avoid unnecessary work if the dihedral has little benefit. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340911#340911 Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much much more: http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List Same great content also available via the Web Forums! http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 08:29:56 AM PST US From: airlion Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: first time on list Jack, I know what you mean about the trailing edge. My preformed aluminum o ne =0Adid the same thing. What do you suggest.? I will go either way. Thank s, Gardiner=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Jack Phi llips =0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com=0ASent: W ed, May 25, 2011 10:19:51 AM=0ASubject: RE: Pietenpol-List: first time on l ist=0A=0A =0AGardiner,=0A =0AWhat kind of treatment to the trailing edge ti ps of the ribs do you want? Do =0Ayou want them cut off square, or a step included to attach a wooden trailing =0Aedge? Or should I just bring them to a point and let you do as you wish with =0Athem when you get the ribs? =0A =0AI used preformed aluminum trailing edge material on mine and would d efinitely =0ANOT do that again =93 it is too hard to keep it from cre eping under fabric tension =0A(look at the little puckers at each rib on my trailing edges =93 those puckers =0Awere not there when I first cove red it), and it is too easily damaged when an =0Aidiot walks into it, as ha ppened this past weekend at the Lynchburg Airshow. I =0Ajust hope it hurt him as much as it hurt my airplane.=0A =0AJack Phillips=0ANX899JP =9CIcarus Plummet=9D=0ASmith Mountain Lake, Virginia=0A =0A=0A_______ _________________________=0A =0AFrom:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics. com =0A[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of airl ion=0ASent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:29 AM=0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics. com=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: first time on list=0A =0AThanks Jack. I am saving the spars and wing tip on that one wing and all the =0Afittings. I will be driving to Brodhead with my wife Susan AND CAMPING OUT. =0ACheer s, Gardiner=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A =0AFrom:Jack Phill ips =0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Wed , May 25, 2011 9:14:52 AM=0ASubject: RE: Pietenpol-List: first time on list =0AGardiner,=0A =0AYou won=99t have to wait so long for your ribs. R yan Mueller last night ordered =0Aenough spruce, plywood and T-88 to make a set of ribs and had it sent to my =0Ahouse. I=99ve pulled my old ri b jig off the shelf and as soon as the wood gets =0Ahere I will start build ing your ribs. I hope to have them finished before =0ABrodhead and can shi p them to you (I don=99t think a stack of 5=99 long ribs will =0Afit in your Cessna 140 =93 I used to have a 140 and its cabin is o nly 35=9D wide).=0A =0AYou are too valuable to this list to allow you to not get your Piet back in the =0Aair.=0A =0AJack Phillips=0ANX899JP =9CIcarus Plummet=9D=0ASmith Mountain Lake, Virginia=0A =0A=0A_ _______________________________=0A =0AFrom:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matr onics.com =0A[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf O f airlion=0ASent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 8:30 AM=0ATo: pietenpol-list@matr onics.com=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: first time on list=0A =0AYou are a real inspiration Bob. I am 78 going on 79 come nov. and I am starting =0At o rebuild after that tornado in Lakeland . Got lots to do. Keep at it. See ms =0Alike you are building faster than I did at 5 years and it took only 1 5 seconds =0Ato tear it up. Cheers, Gardiner Mason=0A =0A=0A_______________ _________________=0A =0AFrom:Robert S. Edson =0ATo : pietenpol-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tue, May 24, 2011 9:10:53 PM=0ASubje ct: Pietenpol-List: first time on list=0AMy name is Bob Edson and I live in Branson Mo. I started my piet in August =0A2010 and have all the frame c ompleted and on the wooden gear with 21 in. spoked =0Awheels. The engine is an 0200 with 20 min. time on it. Just finished the cowl =0Aand I'm instal ling the instruments and engine controls. I hope to have it =0Afinished by winter. All wood is sitka and the ribs are Riblet. Having a great =0Atime- -got started a little later than most people , I'm 76 years old.=0ABob Edso n=0A =0A =0A =0Ahttp://================ ========0A =0A =0A =0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?P ietenpol-List=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/cont ==================== =0A ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:14 AM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Scout discovery in Australia! WOW!! What a find. Please be sure to take some pictures..... That's neat. -----Original Message----- >From: bubbleboy >Sent: May 25, 2011 2:45 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Scout discovery in Australia! > > >Hi all....while trying to find someone to help me lace and true my nice new Buchanan spoked rims, I went in to the local motorcycle shop. I asked one of the guys behind the counter if they lace rims to which they replied we certainly do! We will get the boss for you as he likes "these old weird planes" (Their words). > >Boss comes out and I show him a picture of what im building and he instantly says "Thats a Pietenpol"! Of course I replied it was. > >We then went on to chat for 30 mins about how he has a Pietenpol Scout built in 1933 and is fitted with a 50hp 9 cylinder radial. Apparently the engine was freshened up in 1959 and then from 1961 till the 1990's when he obtained it, it hung from the ceiling of a local museum come bric brac store. He acquired it with the plan to do a complete restoration one day. He said time has not allowed him to start this yet but each week he goes out and uncovers it and turns the prop over by hand to keep the engine turning. He is a motorcycle mechanic so I hope he has lubed the inside of it. > >Anyway I thought I would share my find and he has invited me over to have a look so will ask if I may take some pics and post them on here. > >Scotty > >-------- >Scotty > >Tamworth, Australia >Building a Corvair Powered Pietenpol Air Camper > >www.scottyspietenpol.com > >Rudder, Vert stab, Elevators and 22 Ribs built... > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340897#340897 > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:14 AM PST US From: Jim Boyer Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Greetings, Fellow Texican Pietenpolers! Ryan you and Jesse are just kids; lots of time yet for Piet flying and stuff! Jim ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:50 AM PST US From: Jim Boyer Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Greetings, Fellow Texican Pietenpolers! Hi Gary, Yes we are; thanks, Jim do not archive ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:25 AM PST US From: Jim Boyer Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: first time on list Jack you and Ryan are fantastic people and show what a great group the Pietenpolers are! Cheers, Jim do not archive ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 08:46:48 AM PST US From: Jim Boyer Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: first time on list Hi Gardiner; Arlene and I will be at Brodhead with our motor home again; looking forward to seeing you again and meeting Susan. cheers, Jim B. do not archive ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:02 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dihedral vs. crosswind From: "Bill Church" Just for reference, one degree of dihedral translates to about 3 inches at the wingtip (Assuming that dihedral angle is the upward angle from horizontal of the wings) . Two degrees would be almost double that, and three degrees almost triple that amount (just under NINE inches). Based on eyeball guesstimation, the Piet in the photo that Gary posted appears to have about one degree of dihedral Aside from the effects on flight characteristics, a Piet with three degrees of dihedral would tend to look like an old free-flight model. Not so sure that would be a desired look for a full-size aircraft Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340966#340966 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/model_142.jpg ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 09:39:38 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: first time on list If it were mine, I would do something similar to what Mike Cuy suggested. I would definitely do wood, just don't know what configuration. I'll probably make the ribs with the capstrips going all the way to a point, and you can then trim them to fit whatever you decide to use for a trailing edge. That might make for a good study at Brodhead, investigating the various techniques used. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of airlion Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 11:27 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: first time on list Jack, I know what you mean about the trailing edge. My preformed aluminum one did the same thing. What do you suggest.? I will go either way. Thanks, Gardiner _____ From: Jack Phillips Sent: Wed, May 25, 2011 10:19:51 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: first time on list Gardiner, What kind of treatment to the trailing edge tips of the ribs do you want? Do you want them cut off square, or a step included to attach a wooden trailing edge? Or should I just bring them to a point and let you do as you wish with them when you get the ribs? I used preformed aluminum trailing edge material on mine and would definitely NOT do that again - it is too hard to keep it from creeping under fabric tension (look at the little puckers at each rib on my trailing edges - those puckers were not there when I first covered it), and it is too easily damaged when an idiot walks into it, as happened this past weekend at the Lynchburg Airshow. I just hope it hurt him as much as it hurt my airplane. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of airlion Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:29 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: first time on list Thanks Jack. I am saving the spars and wing tip on that one wing and all the fittings. I will be driving to Brodhead with my wife Susan AND CAMPING OUT. Cheers, Gardiner _____ From: Jack Phillips Sent: Wed, May 25, 2011 9:14:52 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: first time on list Gardiner, You won't have to wait so long for your ribs. Ryan Mueller last night ordered enough spruce, plywood and T-88 to make a set of ribs and had it sent to my house. I've pulled my old rib jig off the shelf and as soon as the wood gets here I will start building your ribs. I hope to have them finished before Brodhead and can ship them to you (I don't think a stack of 5' long ribs will fit in your Cessna 140 - I used to have a 140 and its cabin is only 35" wide). You are too valuable to this list to allow you to not get your Piet back in the air. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of airlion Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 8:30 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: first time on list You are a real inspiration Bob. I am 78 going on 79 come nov. and I am starting to rebuild after that tornado in Lakeland . Got lots to do. Keep at it. Seems like you are building faster than I did at 5 years and it took only 15 seconds to tear it up. Cheers, Gardiner Mason _____ From: Robert S. Edson Sent: Tue, May 24, 2011 9:10:53 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: first time on list My name is Bob Edson and I live in Branson Mo. I started my piet in August 2010 and have all the frame completed and on the wooden gear with 21 in. spoked wheels. The engine is an 0200 with 20 min. time on it. Just finished the cowl and I'm installing the instruments and engine controls. I hope to have it finished by winter. All wood is sitka and the ribs are Riblet. Having a great time--got started a little later than most people , I'm 76 years old. Bob Edson http://====================== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/contribution============ ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:08 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dihedral vs. crosswind Might look something like this: Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 12:28 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dihedral vs. crosswind Just for reference, one degree of dihedral translates to about 3 inches at the wingtip (Assuming that dihedral angle is the upward angle from horizontal of the wings) . Two degrees would be almost double that, and three degrees almost triple that amount (just under NINE inches). Based on eyeball guesstimation, the Piet in the photo that Gary posted appears to have about one degree of dihedral Aside from the effects on flight characteristics, a Piet with three degrees of dihedral would tend to look like an old free-flight model. Not so sure that would be a desired look for a full-size aircraft Bill C. ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:55 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: one man's leading and trailing edge ideas for Pietenpol From: "K5YAC" I used Mike's technique... fairly straightforward and I was able to achieve good results. Thanks Mike! I purchased two 14' long white pine handrails from Home Depot and ripped them as Mike shows in his drawing. The bottom of the LE rounds our nicely with the bottom of the ribs. The top of the LE overlaps the top of the ribs ~1/16"... perfect for fitting LE sheeting. Here is something to think about... I had to install backing strips in order to provide a surface to attach the LE sheet. I just used short lengths of 1/4" x 1/4" bass wood. Markle has a pretty good method for providing LE attaching surface, but it requires a bit more work on the table saw. I also used a simple white pine base board and cut it the way Mike illustrates. This was pretty simple to do. I used wide tongue depressors for gussets... tapered on both ends. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340975#340975 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:17 AM PST US From: "Jack" Subject: RE: RE: Pietenpol-List: first time on list This worked well for me, not tested thought. The picture is the best I have. Basically I cut a groove in the trailing edge front and the rear of the rib with a 1/8" blade in the table saw. Then used 1/8th ply to join. Jack DSM _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Phillips Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 11:37 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: first time on list If it were mine, I would do something similar to what Mike Cuy suggested. I would definitely do wood, just don't know what configuration. I'll probably make the ribs with the capstrips going all the way to a point, and you can then trim them to fit whatever you decide to use for a trailing edge. That might make for a good study at Brodhead, investigating the various techniques used. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of airlion Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 11:27 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: first time on list Jack, I know what you mean about the trailing edge. My preformed aluminum one did the same thing. What do you suggest.? I will go either way. Thanks, Gardiner _____ From: Jack Phillips Sent: Wed, May 25, 2011 10:19:51 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: first time on list Gardiner, What kind of treatment to the trailing edge tips of the ribs do you want? Do you want them cut off square, or a step included to attach a wooden trailing edge? Or should I just bring them to a point and let you do as you wish with them when you get the ribs? I used preformed aluminum trailing edge material on mine and would definitely NOT do that again - it is too hard to keep it from creeping under fabric tension (look at the little puckers at each rib on my trailing edges - those puckers were not there when I first covered it), and it is too easily damaged when an idiot walks into it, as happened this past weekend at the Lynchburg Airshow. I just hope it hurt him as much as it hurt my airplane. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of airlion Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:29 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: first time on list Thanks Jack. I am saving the spars and wing tip on that one wing and all the fittings. I will be driving to Brodhead with my wife Susan AND CAMPING OUT. Cheers, Gardiner _____ From: Jack Phillips Sent: Wed, May 25, 2011 9:14:52 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: first time on list Gardiner, You won't have to wait so long for your ribs. Ryan Mueller last night ordered enough spruce, plywood and T-88 to make a set of ribs and had it sent to my house. I've pulled my old rib jig off the shelf and as soon as the wood gets here I will start building your ribs. I hope to have them finished before Brodhead and can ship them to you (I don't think a stack of 5' long ribs will fit in your Cessna 140 - I used to have a 140 and its cabin is only 35" wide). You are too valuable to this list to allow you to not get your Piet back in the air. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of airlion Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 8:30 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: first time on list You are a real inspiration Bob. I am 78 going on 79 come nov. and I am starting to rebuild after that tornado in Lakeland . Got lots to do. Keep at it. Seems like you are building faster than I did at 5 years and it took only 15 seconds to tear it up. Cheers, Gardiner Mason _____ From: Robert S. Edson Sent: Tue, May 24, 2011 9:10:53 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: first time on list My name is Bob Edson and I live in Branson Mo. I started my piet in August 2010 and have all the frame completed and on the wooden gear with 21 in. spoked wheels. The engine is an 0200 with 20 min. time on it. Just finished the cowl and I'm installing the instruments and engine controls. I hope to have it finished by winter. All wood is sitka and the ribs are Riblet. Having a great time--got started a little later than most people , I'm 76 years old. Bob Edson http://====================== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/contribution============ http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 10:19:34 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: RE: Pietenpol-List: first time on list That looks very nice, Jack. _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 1:09 PM Subject: RE: RE: Pietenpol-List: first time on list This worked well for me, not tested thought. The picture is the best I have. Basically I cut a groove in the trailing edge front and the rear of the rib with a 1/8" blade in the table saw. Then used 1/8th ply to join. Jack DSM _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Phillips Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 11:37 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: first time on list If it were mine, I would do something similar to what Mike Cuy suggested. I would definitely do wood, just don't know what configuration. I'll probably make the ribs with the capstrips going all the way to a point, and you can then trim them to fit whatever you decide to use for a trailing edge. That might make for a good study at Brodhead, investigating the various techniques used. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of airlion Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 11:27 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: first time on list Jack, I know what you mean about the trailing edge. My preformed aluminum one did the same thing. What do you suggest.? I will go either way. Thanks, Gardiner _____ From: Jack Phillips Sent: Wed, May 25, 2011 10:19:51 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: first time on list Gardiner, What kind of treatment to the trailing edge tips of the ribs do you want? Do you want them cut off square, or a step included to attach a wooden trailing edge? Or should I just bring them to a point and let you do as you wish with them when you get the ribs? I used preformed aluminum trailing edge material on mine and would definitely NOT do that again - it is too hard to keep it from creeping under fabric tension (look at the little puckers at each rib on my trailing edges - those puckers were not there when I first covered it), and it is too easily damaged when an idiot walks into it, as happened this past weekend at the Lynchburg Airshow. I just hope it hurt him as much as it hurt my airplane. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of airlion Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:29 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: first time on list Thanks Jack. I am saving the spars and wing tip on that one wing and all the fittings. I will be driving to Brodhead with my wife Susan AND CAMPING OUT. Cheers, Gardiner _____ From: Jack Phillips Sent: Wed, May 25, 2011 9:14:52 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: first time on list Gardiner, You won't have to wait so long for your ribs. Ryan Mueller last night ordered enough spruce, plywood and T-88 to make a set of ribs and had it sent to my house. I've pulled my old rib jig off the shelf and as soon as the wood gets here I will start building your ribs. I hope to have them finished before Brodhead and can ship them to you (I don't think a stack of 5' long ribs will fit in your Cessna 140 - I used to have a 140 and its cabin is only 35" wide). You are too valuable to this list to allow you to not get your Piet back in the air. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of airlion Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 8:30 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: first time on list You are a real inspiration Bob. I am 78 going on 79 come nov. and I am starting to rebuild after that tornado in Lakeland . Got lots to do. Keep at it. Seems like you are building faster than I did at 5 years and it took only 15 seconds to tear it up. Cheers, Gardiner Mason _____ From: Robert S. Edson Sent: Tue, May 24, 2011 9:10:53 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: first time on list My name is Bob Edson and I live in Branson Mo. I started my piet in August 2010 and have all the frame completed and on the wooden gear with 21 in. spoked wheels. The engine is an 0200 with 20 min. time on it. Just finished the cowl and I'm installing the instruments and engine controls. I hope to have it finished by winter. All wood is sitka and the ribs are Riblet. Having a great time--got started a little later than most people , I'm 76 years old. Bob Edson http://====================== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/contribution============ http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 10:31:38 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Trailing edge treatment From: helspersew@aol.com Jack T., This is exactly the way I did it, only I used 3/32 ply I think. Worked very well. Dan Helsper Puryear, TN -----Original Message----- From: Jack Sent: Wed, May 25, 2011 12:11 pm Subject: RE: RE: Pietenpol-List: first time on list This worked well for me, not tested thought. The picture is the best I hav e. Basically I cut a groove in the trailing edge front and the rear of the rib with a 1/8=9D blade in the table saw. Then used 1/8th ply to jo in. Jack DSM ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 11:11:30 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Trailing edge treatment From: "K5YAC" What? That's not the way Ber-nerd did it! -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340984#340984 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/te_treatment_137.jpg ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 11:21:03 AM PST US From: "Ray Krause" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Scout discovery in Australia! Scotty, Sure hope you get some good pictures, since I am trying to build one. Thanks and fly SAFELY, Ray Krause Waiex 51YX, Jabiru 3300 (1197), Sensenich wood prop, AeroCarb (#2 needle modified), Dynon D-180, Garmin SL 30 NavCom, Garmin 327 transponder, Garmin Aera 560, nav and strobe lights: 250 hrs., building Sky Scout ----- Original Message ----- From: "bubbleboy" Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 2:45 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Scout discovery in Australia! > > > Hi all....while trying to find someone to help me lace and true my nice > new Buchanan spoked rims, I went in to the local motorcycle shop. I asked > one of the guys behind the counter if they lace rims to which they replied > we certainly do! We will get the boss for you as he likes "these old weird > planes" (Their words). > > Boss comes out and I show him a picture of what im building and he > instantly says "Thats a Pietenpol"! Of course I replied it was. > > We then went on to chat for 30 mins about how he has a Pietenpol Scout > built in 1933 and is fitted with a 50hp 9 cylinder radial. Apparently the > engine was freshened up in 1959 and then from 1961 till the 1990's when he > obtained it, it hung from the ceiling of a local museum come bric brac > store. He acquired it with the plan to do a complete restoration one day. > He said time has not allowed him to start this yet but each week he goes > out and uncovers it and turns the prop over by hand to keep the engine > turning. He is a motorcycle mechanic so I hope he has lubed the inside of > it. > > Anyway I thought I would share my find and he has invited me over to have > a look so will ask if I may take some pics and post them on here. > > Scotty > > -------- > Scotty > > Tamworth, Australia > Building a Corvair Powered Pietenpol Air Camper > > www.scottyspietenpol.com > > Rudder, Vert stab, Elevators and 22 Ribs built... > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340897#340897 > > > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 12:08:45 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Trailing edge treatment From: helspersew@aol.com Darnit! I should have known not to mention anything about this! My image ta rnished! Dan Helsper Puryear, TN -----Original Message----- From: K5YAC Sent: Wed, May 25, 2011 1:11 pm Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Trailing edge treatment What? That's not the way Ber-nerd did it! -------- ark Chouinard ings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340984#340984 ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/te_treatment_137.jpg -======================== -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== -----Original Message----- From: K5YAC Sent: Wed, May 25, 2011 1:11 pm Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Trailing edge treatment What? That's not the way Ber-nerd did it! -------- ark Chouinard ings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340984#340984 ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/te_treatment_137.jpg -======================== -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 12:11:01 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: first time on list From: "kevinpurtee" You know, Gardiner, thank goodness Gary's not doing your wing ribs. He mentioned it would take 5 years. He didn't mention you'd be missing two when he was done. I've said it before: nice Piet people. do not arcive -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340989#340989 ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 12:12:39 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Trailing edge treatment From: "kevinpurtee" He got a waiver. do not archive -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340992#340992 ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:58 PM PST US From: "Gboothe5" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: first time on list Oh! A COMPLETE set....that would take another year... Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kevinpurtee Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 12:09 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: first time on list You know, Gardiner, thank goodness Gary's not doing your wing ribs. He mentioned it would take 5 years. He didn't mention you'd be missing two when he was done. I've said it before: nice Piet people. do not arcive -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340989#340989 ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 01:24:57 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: first time on list From: "K5YAC" At least! gboothe5(at)comcast.net wrote: > Oh! A COMPLETE set....that would take another year... > > Do not archive > > -- -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=341007#341007 ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 03:38:15 PM PST US From: Woodflier@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Snapfish album Here's a link to some project photos of my recently complete Pietenpol, and several taken today during a beautiful early morning flight. _http://www2.snapfish.com/snapfish/thumbnailshare/AlbumID=3402662021/a=49783 5021_497835021/otsc=SHR/otsi=SALBlink/COBRAND_NAME=snapfish/_ (http://www2.snapfish.com/snapfish/thumbnailshare/AlbumID=3402662021/a=497835021_497835021 /otsc=SHR/otsi=SALBlink/COBRAND_NAME=snapfish/) 36.5 hours to fly off before Brodhead. Tough duty!! Matt Paxton ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 04:01:05 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Greetings, Fellow Texican Pietenpolers! From: helspersew@aol.com If you knew all the bad stuff, ......I don't think you would be falling in line :O) Dan Helsper Puryear, TN do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Gboothe5 Sent: Tue, May 24, 2011 8:05 pm Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Greetings, Fellow Texican Pietenpolers! Trying to be like you, Dan! Do not archive From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of helspersew@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 5:28 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Greetings, Fellow Texican Pietenpolers! Gary, Congratulations on your airpark lot. I would suspect you will love it. Avia tion 24/7 especially since you will be retired. Good for you mi amigo! Dan Helsper Puryear, TN -----Original Message----- From: Gboothe5 Sent: Tue, May 24, 2011 7:05 pm Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Greetings, Fellow Texican Pietenpolers! You guys are heartless. I could never be so mean. :-/ Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Markle Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 2:44 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Greetings, Fellow Texican Pietenpolers! > You'll like Texas, Gary. It will give you a whole new understanding of the word "crosswind". I remember when I moved to Texas after learning to fly in Tennessee. Until then, I simply wouldn't take my J-3 out of the hangar if the wind was blowing more than 20 knots. Once I moved to Texas, I realized tha t if I only flew when the winds was less than 20 knots, I would almost never fly .. Just remember, the reason it is so windy in Texas is, Oklahoma sucks. Also remember to flush twice since North Carolina is SO far away..... Do Not Archive Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 04:30:47 PM PST US From: Scott Knowlton Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Snapfish album Matt=2C Congrats on getting your beatiful Piet in the air. If your announcement of your first flight wasn't enough to bolster my building enthusiasm=2C your group of photos on snapfish of not only some of the build but also those wo nderful first flights are the source of encouragment all of us worskshop dw ellers need! Thanks for the shot in the arm. Your workmanship and determi nation are an inspiration. Thanks! Scott Knowlton Burlington Ontario Ribs and Tail Feathers done From: Woodflier@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Snapfish album Here's a link to some project photos of my recently complete Pietenpol=2C a nd several taken today during a beautiful early morning flight. http://www2.snapfish.com/snapfish/thumbnailshare/AlbumID=3402662021/a=4 97835021_497835021/otsc=SHR/otsi=SALBlink/COBRAND_NAME=snapfish/ 36.5 hours to fly off before Brodhead. Tough duty!! Matt Paxton ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 06:27:23 PM PST US From: "wayne@taildraggersinc.com" Subject: Pietenpol-List: R/C Piet Kit For Sale (not mine) Hello Good People, I noticed this one on the net this evening, and thought I'd pass it along. It's not mine, so I can't answer questions, but judging from the pics it looks like a good buy. R/C Piet kit for sale: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1444980 Wayne Bressler Taildraggers, Inc. www.taildraggersinc.com ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:59 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: First Cuts... From: Mark Roberts Well, it has REALLY begun now! With the help of my daughter's boyfriend, I cut one of the boards I have planed down to thickness into 1.125" strips, then planed them down to 1". Then, with eager anticipation, I fit te top and bottom stringers into place, stepped back and realized I have begun to build a REAL airplane, not a model. Dang, May 25th 1959 my parents married, and on May 25th 2011, I began to put stingers into place for my new airplane. Finally. The dream begins to take shape :o) Yes, it is a little thing, but the old Proverb of "The Journey of a thousand steps starts with just one" takes on some personal meaning... Mark ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:46 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: First Cuts... From: "Billy McCaskill" Way to go, Mark! Nothing like seeing actual airplane parts coming to life on your workbench! Keep it up! -------- Billy McCaskill Urbana, IL tail section almost done, starting on ribs soon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=341075#341075 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.