Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Fri 06/17/11


Total Messages Posted: 34



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 03:36 AM - Re: Another Cable Question (Jack)
     2. 05:15 AM - Avon tires and Johnson Airspeed indicator (Douwe Blumberg)
     3. 05:19 AM - Building my first wing rib - the journey begins (jarheadpilot82)
     4. 05:23 AM - Re: Avon tires and Johnson Airspeed indicator (Jack Phillips)
     5. 05:45 AM - Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins (Kringle)
     6. 06:09 AM - Re: Another Cable Question (Charles Campbell)
     7. 06:27 AM - Re: Another Cable Question (Charles Campbell)
     8. 06:29 AM - Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins (kevinpurtee)
     9. 06:31 AM - Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins (cjborsuk)
    10. 06:36 AM - Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins (kevinpurtee)
    11. 06:47 AM - Re: Another Cable Question (Gboothe5)
    12. 07:02 AM - Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins (jarheadpilot82)
    13. 07:30 AM - Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins (Kringle)
    14. 07:41 AM - Re: [eaa1114-discuss] Letter from Capt. Ray Fowler,Chief Pilot f (rvanengen)
    15. 07:50 AM - Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins (jarheadpilot82)
    16. 09:12 AM - Re: Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins (Michael Perez)
    17. 09:21 AM - Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins (Bill Church)
    18. 09:48 AM - Re: Another Cable Question (Jim Boyer)
    19. 09:57 AM - Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins (K5YAC)
    20. 10:06 AM - Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins (K5YAC)
    21. 10:07 AM - Re: Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins (Gboothe5)
    22. 10:26 AM - Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins (jarheadpilot82)
    23. 10:39 AM - Re: Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins (Gboothe5)
    24. 11:21 AM - Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins (tdudley@umn.edu)
    25. 11:29 AM - Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins (Ben Charvet)
    26. 12:04 PM - Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins (jarheadpilot82)
    27. 02:55 PM - Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins (Richard Schreiber)
    28. 02:56 PM - A engine (bender)
    29. 03:26 PM - Re: A engine (Jack Phillips)
    30. 03:57 PM - Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins (kevinpurtee)
    31. 04:21 PM - Re: A engine (bender)
    32. 05:35 PM - Re: Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins (Ben Charvet)
    33. 05:59 PM - Re: Re: A engine (Jack Phillips)
    34. 08:32 PM - Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins (kevinpurtee)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 03:36:58 AM PST US
    From: "Jack" <jack@textors.com>
    Subject: Another Cable Question
    Jim, I don't remember that reference in the book. I used three for my tail cables. I have seen some with one but wonder if the tool has a wider surface. See pictures. Jack DSM http://textors.com/DSCN4200_800x600.jpg http://textors.com/DSCN4199_800x600.jpg http://textors.com/DSCN4201_800x600.jpg http://textors.com/DSCN4202_800x600.jpg _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Boyer Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 11:01 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Another Cable Question Another cable question; in Bingelis books and in AC43 it says that 3/32 copper oval cable sleeves only need to be crimped once. I am using 3/32 cable for the tail brace cables and I know I have seen other Piets with 3/32 tail brace cables but don't remember ever seeing just one crimp on the copper sleeve. Is that what those of you using 3/32 cable are doing just one crimp? Tried doing three last night as a test and it can be done but doesn't look well and just one crimp makes the ends swell up like you stepped in the middle of a balloon. Cheers, Jim B.


    Message 2


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    Time: 05:15:07 AM PST US
    From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Avon tires and Johnson Airspeed indicator
    I bought a very nicely made "kit" form Kerri Ann Price a while back. Here's the last email I have keriannprice@hotmail.com Those Avon tires will work fine. Also ck out Avon "Speedmaster"s, very vintage as well. I've seen these tires on Piets, so know they work. Douwe


    Message 3


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    Time: 05:19:50 AM PST US
    Subject: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins
    From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com>
    I am starting my first wing rib, and came across the following website- http://www.2wings.com/m12/faq/wingfaq.htm#04/19/01%20RIB%20CONSTRUCTION,%20GUSSETS,%20GLUE,%20EPOXY,%20STAPLER,%20CLAMP,%20JOINT,%20CLAMPING%20SPAR%20CRUSH%20PLATE This website is, apparently, is a Builder's area for Pitts Model 12 aircraft. In reading through I found interesting tidbits of information, but the following thread really caught my attention. I have cut and pasted it here to make it easier to read- "I re-read Cory's post, It does sound as though Cory is gluing the sticks together, then adding gussets to each side. This would indicate that the sticks are custom miter fitted on each end, then glued. This is NOT required on any gussetted aircraft rib. (emphasis mine) The size of the gusset is engineered to have adequate shear glue strength to transfer the loads and more. I recommend that the sticks be cut as long as you can to fit the location with 90 deg cuts on the ends such that one corner of the end of the stick contacts the adjacent one. Factory Pitts, Stearman and Staggerwing ribs have no inter-stick contact in places relying on the gussets only. Just like the roof over your head. This can save bunch of build time. Ribs built in this manner are still stronger than the required loads." (emphasis mine) I have three questions- 1. Really? Are 90 cuts on the ends of the braces sufficient over mitered ends? If that were true, it sure would save me time, but I also know that the Internet is full of really bad ideas parading as "expert advice". FWIW, I have built and glued my first rib with the vertical braces mitered to probably within 1/16th. Am I in overkill, or doing what is the right way to construct? 2. I am thinking about building my wing ribs using Semi-Circle and Quarter-Circle gussets (I just like the look, although, once built and covered, I won't see them again). Since they are not the original plans type of gusset, what size circle did some of you use for your gussets? 3. I heard the instructor in an EAA workshop I attended ask the question, "Are you building a Timex, or a Rolex?" The point I felt he was making is that you can build and spend thousands of extra hours fitting tolerences that don't really make your aircraft any stronger, or you can build it using good practices and it will be just fine. That is not the same as "The Fisherman" school of aircraft construction, but yet it is a far cry from building a fine Swiss watch either. I guess that I am asking for words of advice in this regard as I begin building. Comments are appreciated. Thanks to everyone in advance for their advice. I count today in my Builder's Log as the day I began building my Pietenpol. Everything up until now has been "research", and I don't think the FAA or anyone else gives two hoots about how many hours of research I did. They are more interested in what I built, how I built it, and (at least to me) how many hours I spent building. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343267#343267


    Message 4


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    Time: 05:23:20 AM PST US
    From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Avon tires and Johnson Airspeed indicator
    I have Avon Speedmasters on mine and have been very pleased with them. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Douwe Blumberg Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 8:13 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Avon tires and Johnson Airspeed indicator I bought a very nicely made "kit" form Kerri Ann Price a while back. Here's the last email I have keriannprice@hotmail.com Those Avon tires will work fine. Also ck out Avon "Speedmaster"s, very vintage as well. I've seen these tires on Piets, so know they work. Douwe


    Message 5


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    Time: 05:45:49 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins
    From: "Kringle" <Mrkringles@msn.com>
    90 degree cuts are fine. I compromised and angled mine to give me a little more suface area to glue. -------- John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343270#343270


    Message 6


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    Time: 06:09:28 AM PST US
    From: "Charles Campbell" <cncampbell@windstream.net>
    Subject: Re: Another Cable Question
    Jack, I ordered both ferrules swaging tool from ACS. The ferrules are 3/8-in long and the swager is 1/2-inch wide so the swage is done in just one crimp. I think the 1 vs 2 vs 3 crimps have reference to the crimping tool that has a much more narrow 'bite'. I think you are using much longer ferrules (copper colored vs plated) and a more narrow crimping tool. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 6:33 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Another Cable Question Jim, I don't remember that reference in the book. I used three for my tail cables. I have seen some with one but wonder if the tool has a wider surface. See pictures. Jack DSM http://textors.com/DSCN4200_800x600.jpg http://textors.com/DSCN4199_800x600.jpg http://textors.com/DSCN4201_800x600.jpg http://textors.com/DSCN4202_800x600.jpg ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Boyer Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 11:01 AM To: pietenpol-list Subject: Pietenpol-List: Another Cable Question Another cable question; in Bingelis books and in AC43 it says that 3/32 copper oval cable sleeves only need to be crimped once. I am using 3/32 cable for the tail brace cables and I know I have seen other Piets with 3/32 tail brace cables but don't remember ever seeing just one crimp on the copper sleeve. Is that what those of you using 3/32 cable are doing just one crimp? Tried doing three last night as a test and it can be done but doesn't look well and just one crimp makes the ends swell up like you stepped in the middle of a balloon. Cheers, Jim B. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution


    Message 7


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    Time: 06:27:14 AM PST US
    From: "Charles Campbell" <cncampbell@windstream.net>
    Subject: Re: Another Cable Question
    #2. I meant to attach a pic to the first post so if I can get it to come up here it is. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 6:33 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Another Cable Question Jim, I don't remember that reference in the book. I used three for my tail cables. I have seen some with one but wonder if the tool has a wider surface. See pictures. Jack DSM http://textors.com/DSCN4200_800x600.jpg http://textors.com/DSCN4199_800x600.jpg http://textors.com/DSCN4201_800x600.jpg http://textors.com/DSCN4202_800x600.jpg ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Boyer Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 11:01 AM To: pietenpol-list Subject: Pietenpol-List: Another Cable Question Another cable question; in Bingelis books and in AC43 it says that 3/32 copper oval cable sleeves only need to be crimped once. I am using 3/32 cable for the tail brace cables and I know I have seen other Piets with 3/32 tail brace cables but don't remember ever seeing just one crimp on the copper sleeve. Is that what those of you using 3/32 cable are doing just one crimp? Tried doing three last night as a test and it can be done but doesn't look well and just one crimp makes the ends swell up like you stepped in the middle of a balloon. Cheers, Jim B. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution


    Message 8


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    Time: 06:29:17 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins
    From: "kevinpurtee" <kevin.purtee@us.army.mil>
    Congratulations on your first wing rib, Terry. Like John, I miter the intercoastals but I've also read that the 90s are fine. As always, the engineers, A&Ps and IAs can correct as they see fit - that's my standard disclaimer since I routinely say dumb things. I like the "timex vs. rolex" analogy. Unfortunately, it's hard to know what right looks like when you're starting. That's why you develop your list of trusted people on this site and seek their advice. You also have your local technical counselors. Lemme see: "timex vs. rolex," "pole-vaulting over mouse turds," and, "it ain't the space shuttle." Not excuses to do sloppy work, but encouragement to do airworthy work and make progress. -------- Kevin &quot;Axel&quot; Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343275#343275


    Message 9


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    Time: 06:31:51 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins
    From: "cjborsuk" <cjborsuk@yahoo.com>
    Take a look at the Help for Home Builders section of EAA.org. There are a number of videos there building a wood wing. All of them cut angles. I believe you will find most of the folks here also cut angles. Another advantage to cutting the angles, is you can remove the rib from the jig without first attaching one side of the gussets. This allowed me to always have a rib in the jig and two others at the "gusset station". Cleaner and neater. This also allows you smooth the joints out of the jig, which is much easier. You can check out my blog at: http://pietenpol-989cb.blogspot.com On the gussets themselves, I went with the rectangle. I ended up with 4 different sizes, but the mass majority of them are 1.5" x 1.0". The other sizes were 1.25" x 1.0" - only two of these per side. The other two sizes were specific for the nose and the tail. Trimmed on the router table. Video on the blog. Good luck and enjoy the time. If time is real important to save, your going to be in trouble. Chuck 989CB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343276#343276


    Message 10


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    Time: 06:36:43 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins
    From: "kevinpurtee" <kevin.purtee@us.army.mil>
    Didn't really answer a couple of your questions - standard disclaimer still applies: Do as good as you can on the woodwork. I try for 1/32" tolerances. For gusseted joints I'll go to 1/16". This obviously does not apply if you cut 90 degree angles on your rib intercoastals. Ask Gene Rambo about the size of the round gussets on the ribs. TLAR tells me that 1.25" radius would be ok. -------- Kevin &quot;Axel&quot; Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343278#343278


    Message 11


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    Time: 06:47:41 AM PST US
    From: "Gboothe5" <gboothe5@comcast.net>
    Subject: Another Cable Question
    That's what I use.1 crimp. Gary Do not archive From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Campbell Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 6:24 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Another Cable Question #2. I meant to attach a pic to the first post so if I can get it to come up here it is. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack <mailto:jack@textors.com> Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 6:33 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Another Cable Question Jim, I don't remember that reference in the book. I used three for my tail cables. I have seen some with one but wonder if the tool has a wider surface. See pictures. Jack DSM http://textors.com/DSCN4200_800x600.jpg http://textors.com/DSCN4199_800x600.jpg http://textors.com/DSCN4201_800x600.jpg http://textors.com/DSCN4202_800x600.jpg _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Boyer Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 11:01 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Another Cable Question Another cable question; in Bingelis books and in AC43 it says that 3/32 copper oval cable sleeves only need to be crimped once. I am using 3/32 cable for the tail brace cables and I know I have seen other Piets with 3/32 tail brace cables but don't remember ever seeing just one crimp on the copper sleeve. Is that what those of you using 3/32 cable are doing just one crimp? Tried doing three last night as a test and it can be done but doesn't look well and just one crimp makes the ends swell up like you stepped in the middle of a balloon. Cheers, Jim B. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c


    Message 12


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    Time: 07:02:33 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins
    From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com>
    Thanks for everyone's input. Chuck, thanks for the advice about time. Flying is my job, so staying proficient is not a factor. I look at this as a journey, as I said. If the destination is the only goal, you will miss the joy of the journey. I am in no rush. I also saw the three step wing rib process on the westcoastpiet. com website. I like the ability to remove the rib from the jig and apply the gussets without staples or nails. So for that reason alone I think that I will stay with the mitered braces. I think that I will also stick with the rectangle gussets- easier to cut, and much less waste. I will send pictures as I get a little further on the trip! Thanks again to all. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343282#343282


    Message 13


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    Time: 07:30:27 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins
    From: "Kringle" <Mrkringles@msn.com>
    Terry, I questioned the rib joints myself but found comfort in a bridge I passed over a few days later. I knew I was going that way again this morning so took some pictures for you. Check out their gussets. -------- John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343285#343285 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/bridge2_854.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/bridge1_170.jpg


    Message 14


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    Time: 07:41:31 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: [eaa1114-discuss] Letter from Capt. Ray Fowler,Chief
    Pilot f
    From: "rvanengen" <rvanengen@gmail.com>
    Extremely well said...thanks for forwarding! A very sad loss of a piece of history, but thankfully not infinitely compounded by loss of life or injury. -------- --Randall 02xB || !02xB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343286#343286


    Message 15


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    Time: 07:50:32 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins
    From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com>
    Great picture, John. Definitely worth a thousand words. Or a couple of beverages at Brodhead - my treat. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343291#343291


    Message 16


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    Time: 09:12:39 AM PST US
    From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins
    I used a 2" hole saw for my gussets. Then used an old school paper cutter t o cut those gussets in 1/2 and 1/4 pieces.- I believe I have pictures on my website. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com


    Message 17


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    Time: 09:21:56 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins
    From: "Bill Church" <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
    Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, I'll do it now: Refer to the Bingelis books. They will provide answers to all of your questions. Attached is a Tony Bingelis sketch showing various joint conditions, all deemed to be acceptable. If you don't own the set of Bingelis books, get one. If you have a set, read them. Such a wealth of homebuilt aircraft information. So, in response to your questions: 1. Yes, 90degree cuts on the ends of the braces are sufficient. They will be slightly less strong than mitered (less bonding area), but not significantly. Personally, I prefer mitered joints, but I enjoy woodworking, and take pride in nice fitting joints, whether anyone else knows about them or not - but that's just me. I'm not sure what you mean by your statement that your braces have been "mitered to probably within 1/16th". Do you mean you have 1/16" gaps between the sticks? Basically the sticks should butt against the top and bottom capstrips.I would avoid gaps. A disc sander is an invaluable tool in building ribs (and many other parts) . I use mine ALL the time. Probably less than $100. Get the biggest size you can find. Mine is 8 inch diameter. 2. I used circular gussets - just liked the look better (but that's me). I made mine 2" diameter, and cut them into halves and quarters with a thin blade (scroll saw). 3. Build the way you want to build, and are capable of. Some homebuilt aircraft have woodwork that looks like fine furniture, and some have woodwork that... doesn't. Strength will rely on proper techniques, and making sure that glue joints have proper contact (no gaps between wood pieces that are not filled with the proper amount of glue). How your aircraft performs will depend largely on the symmetry and squareness (wherever things are supposed to be square) of your construction, not how pretty it looks. Always remember "Keep it light". Personally, I think I'm aiming for a Seiko. A little nicer than a Timex, but much more reasonably priced than a Rolex. Lastly, I don't think that the FAA gives a hoot about how many hours you spent building your plane (unless someone else did more hours on your plane than you did). What they will care about is whether or not YOU built it. One rib down, and a bunch more to go. Before you know it you'll have a whole wing's worth of ribs (unless you get distracted, like another builder, whose name rhymes with Gary Boothe). Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343302#343302 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/bingelis_rib_joints_648.jpg


    Message 18


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    Time: 09:48:53 AM PST US
    From: Jim Boyer <boyerjrb@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Another Cable Question
    Hi Jack, thats what bothered me; it looked like some had one crimp but it was much wider. It could have been just that the 3 crimps blended together. Both AC43-13 and Bingelis books say just one for 3/32" and 3 for 1/8" sleeves. Thanks for the pictures, Jim B.


    Message 19


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    Time: 09:57:57 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins
    From: "K5YAC" <hangar10@cox.net>
    Not sure that it matters much, but I mitered (sanded) each diagonal and upright to fit precisely and I honestly don't think it took me any longer to go this route. I didn't custom fit each part to each assembly, rather I made a set of "master" parts as I laid out the first rib and used each of these master parts to make the remaining parts by marking the cut angles on long pieces of capstrip. Most of us do this anyway (mark lengths) in order to cut our parts to the correct length, even if we are cutting 90s. So, after I marked my parts I went to the band saw and rip, rip, rip, rip, rip. Now I've got a stack of parts with angles marked on each end, so I take them to my disk sander and sand, sand, sand, sand, sand them to match the markings. It actually went really quick, and each part was fabricated to the identical dimension as the original master part. Once I had all these built, which only took me a few work sessions, I had an entire assembly line set up. Making these parts in batches is a LOT quicker than making them as you go (marking each piece, walking to the saw each time, etc.). I still have all these master parts. They fit perfectly in my jig in the event that I need to make a repair, or build another Piet later on. I know that all this isn't necessary, but I just wanted to share the way I did mine. I would argue that their is some degree of added strength in the increased contact area. I used the same process with my fuse halves... all the diagonals and uprights were sanded to match. The fit is snug and leaves no voids. I think this serves to not only provide more surface area, but also better alignment... especially when doing a number of the same assemblies, such as ribs. My $.02 Some of the diagonals cut and sorted. Gussets ready to go. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343308#343308


    Message 20


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    Time: 10:06:04 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins
    From: "K5YAC" <hangar10@cox.net>
    Wow! Bill nailed it. We must have been writing at the same time. I'll agree... the disc sander is an excellent tool. I got mine (6" with 4" belt) for $100. You can probably do much better than I did by scouring Craigslist. One more thing I want to agree with... I too enjoy woodworking and take pride in nicely fitting joints. Not to brag, but I had a 20+ year wood shop instructor and airplane builder come into my hangar the other night (he has 6 airplanes). I noticed him looking over my project while I talked to another guy. Later on I asked him what he thought and he said, "you are doing excellent work". Yep, I'm glad I've taken a little extra time (emphasis on little) to do my best work. Is it THE best work? Probably not, but I'm trying. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343311#343311


    Message 21


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    Time: 10:07:15 AM PST US
    From: "Gboothe5" <gboothe5@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins
    ...not that there's anything wrong with getting distracted, but, if I had it to do over again, I'd take my A.D.D. medication and stick with completing the ribs in one shot! Gary Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 9:19 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, I'll do it now: Refer to the Bingelis books. They will provide answers to all of your questions. Attached is a Tony Bingelis sketch showing various joint conditions, all deemed to be acceptable. If you don't own the set of Bingelis books, get one. If you have a set, read them. Such a wealth of homebuilt aircraft information. So, in response to your questions: 1. Yes, 90degree cuts on the ends of the braces are sufficient. They will be slightly less strong than mitered (less bonding area), but not significantly. Personally, I prefer mitered joints, but I enjoy woodworking, and take pride in nice fitting joints, whether anyone else knows about them or not - but that's just me. I'm not sure what you mean by your statement that your braces have been "mitered to probably within 1/16th". Do you mean you have 1/16" gaps between the sticks? Basically the sticks should butt against the top and bottom capstrips.I would avoid gaps. A disc sander is an invaluable tool in building ribs (and many other parts) . I use mine ALL the time. Probably less than $100. Get the biggest size you can find. Mine is 8 inch diameter. 2. I used circular gussets - just liked the look better (but that's me). I made mine 2" diameter, and cut them into halves and quarters with a thin blade (scroll saw). 3. Build the way you want to build, and are capable of. Some homebuilt aircraft have woodwork that looks like fine furniture, and some have woodwork that... doesn't. Strength will rely on proper techniques, and making sure that glue joints have proper contact (no gaps between wood pieces that are not filled with the proper amount of glue). How your aircraft performs will depend largely on the symmetry and squareness (wherever things are supposed to be square) of your construction, not how pretty it looks. Always remember "Keep it light". Personally, I think I'm aiming for a Seiko. A little nicer than a Timex, but much more reasonably priced than a Rolex. Lastly, I don't think that the FAA gives a hoot about how many hours you spent building your plane (unless someone else did more hours on your plane than you did). What they will care about is whether or not YOU built it. One rib down, and a bunch more to go. Before you know it you'll have a whole wing's worth of ribs (unless you get distracted, like another builder, whose name rhymes with Gary Boothe). Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343302#343302 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/bingelis_rib_joints_648.jpg


    Message 22


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    Time: 10:26:35 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins
    From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com>
    What I meant about time is that, you are right that the FAA doesn't care how many hours I put into the airplane, as long as it is done right. I only meant a tally of hours would be meaningful to me. I appreciate all of the photos as it helps me as I go to get ideas. I think that the Seiko comparison may be the best goal - not to low end, not too high end, but built well and built to last. I do have the Bingelis books, but, frankly, I do not remember that diagram of the braces and gussets. Maybe it is a different edition. If you can tell me the book and page, I will go back and search for it. Back to work. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343315#343315


    Message 23


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    Time: 10:39:50 AM PST US
    From: "Gboothe5" <gboothe5@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins
    Terry, All it takes is a couple pictures of some bridges? Hang on, mate...got several bridges near where I live... Gary Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jarheadpilot82 Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 7:48 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins <jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com> Great picture, John. Definitely worth a thousand words. Or a couple of beverages at Brodhead - my treat. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343291#343291


    Message 24


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    Time: 11:21:38 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins
    From: "tdudley@umn.edu" <tdudley@umn.edu>
    Terry, I mitred my rib spacers and cut square/rectangular gussets. Do what Mark did and cut multiple spacers and gussets. It's really nice to be able to make a rib a day without having to stop and cut individual pieces. Building the ribs was great--starting on the project and seeing progress each day. Every part of it was exciting. Tom Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343320#343320 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/rib_945.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/rib_gusset_166.jpg


    Message 25


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    Time: 11:29:31 AM PST US
    From: Ben Charvet <bencharvet@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins
    I mitered my rib pieces. If you make them like an assembly line it doesn't take all that long if you have a power sander. I ended up with all the individual rib pieces numbered and rubber banded together on my workbench, so putting together a rib didn't take all that long, maybe an hour to glue and nail one side. In the long run it doesn't cost much more to build a Rolex. Its your time, so its up to you. I don't regret it myself. Ben Charvet Titusville, Fl On 6/17/2011 8:17 AM, jarheadpilot82 wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "jarheadpilot82"<jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com> > > I am starting my first wing rib, and came across the following website- > > http://www.2wings.com/m12/faq/wingfaq.htm#04/19/01%20RIB%20CONSTRUCTION,%20GUSSETS,%20GLUE,%20EPOXY,%20STAPLER,%20CLAMP,%20JOINT,%20CLAMPING%20SPAR%20CRUSH%20PLATE > > This website is, apparently, is a Builder's area for Pitts Model 12 aircraft. In reading through I found interesting tidbits of information, but the following thread really caught my attention. I have cut and pasted it here to make it easier to read- > > "I re-read Cory's post, It does sound as though Cory is gluing the sticks together, then adding gussets to each side. This would indicate that the sticks are custom miter fitted on each end, then glued. This is NOT required on any gussetted aircraft rib. (emphasis mine) The size of the gusset is engineered to have adequate shear glue strength to transfer the loads and more. I recommend that the sticks be cut as long as you can to fit the location with 90 deg cuts on the ends such that one corner of the end of the stick contacts the adjacent one. Factory Pitts, Stearman and Staggerwing ribs have no inter-stick contact in places relying on the gussets only. Just like the roof over your head. This can save bunch of build time. Ribs built in this manner are still stronger than the required loads." (emphasis mine) > > I have three questions- > > 1. Really? Are 90 cuts on the ends of the braces sufficient over mitered ends? If that were true, it sure would save me time, but I also know that the Internet is full of really bad ideas parading as "expert advice". FWIW, I have built and glued my first rib with the vertical braces mitered to probably within 1/16th. Am I in overkill, or doing what is the right way to construct? > > 2. I am thinking about building my wing ribs using Semi-Circle and Quarter-Circle gussets (I just like the look, although, once built and covered, I won't see them again). Since they are not the original plans type of gusset, what size circle did some of you use for your gussets? > > 3. I heard the instructor in an EAA workshop I attended ask the question, "Are you building a Timex, or a Rolex?" The point I felt he was making is that you can build and spend thousands of extra hours fitting tolerences that don't really make your aircraft any stronger, or you can build it using good practices and it will be just fine. That is not the same as "The Fisherman" school of aircraft construction, but yet it is a far cry from building a fine Swiss watch either. I guess that I am asking for words of advice in this regard as I begin building. Comments are appreciated. > > Thanks to everyone in advance for their advice. I count today in my Builder's Log as the day I began building my Pietenpol. Everything up until now has been "research", and I don't think the FAA or anyone else gives two hoots about how many hours of research I did. They are more interested in what I built, how I built it, and (at least to me) how many hours I spent building. > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343267#343267 > > -- Ben Charvet, PharmD Staff Pharmacist Parrish Medical center


    Message 26


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    Time: 12:04:57 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins
    From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com>
    Gary, I don't want to buy a bridge, I just like the visual... ;o) -------- Semper Fi, Terry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343325#343325


    Message 27


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    Time: 02:55:52 PM PST US
    From: "Richard Schreiber" <lmforge@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins
    Ben: Thats how I did my rib pieces and like you it took about 1 hour per rib to assemble. After assembling one rib, I took the staples out of the one I did the day before. I think on my best day one Saturday, I actually did 3 ribs. Rick Schreiber, Valparaiso In > [Original Message] > From: Ben Charvet <bencharvet@gmail.com> > To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> > Date: 6/17/2011 1:32:44 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins > > I mitered my rib pieces. If you make them like an assembly line it > doesn't take all that long if you have a power sander. I ended up with > all the individual rib pieces numbered and rubber banded together on my > workbench, so putting together a rib didn't take all that long, maybe an > hour to glue and nail one side. In the long run it doesn't cost much > more to build a Rolex. Its your time, so its up to you. I don't regret > it myself. > > Ben Charvet > Titusville, Fl > On 6/17/2011 8:17 AM, jarheadpilot82 wrote: > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "jarheadpilot82"<jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com> > > > > I am starting my first wing rib, and came across the following website- > > > > http://www.2wings.com/m12/faq/wingfaq.htm#04/19/01%20RIB%20CONSTRUCTION,%20G USSETS,%20GLUE,%20EPOXY,%20STAPLER,%20CLAMP,%20JOINT,%20CLAMPING%20SPAR%20CR USH%20PLATE > > > > This website is, apparently, is a Builder's area for Pitts Model 12 aircraft. In reading through I found interesting tidbits of information, but the following thread really caught my attention. I have cut and pasted it here to make it easier to read- > > > > "I re-read Cory's post, It does sound as though Cory is gluing the sticks together, then adding gussets to each side. This would indicate that the sticks are custom miter fitted on each end, then glued. This is NOT required on any gussetted aircraft rib. (emphasis mine) The size of the gusset is engineered to have adequate shear glue strength to transfer the loads and more. I recommend that the sticks be cut as long as you can to fit the location with 90 deg cuts on the ends such that one corner of the end of the stick contacts the adjacent one. Factory Pitts, Stearman and Staggerwing ribs have no inter-stick contact in places relying on the gussets only. Just like the roof over your head. This can save bunch of build time. Ribs built in this manner are still stronger than the required loads." (emphasis mine) > > > > I have three questions- > > > > 1. Really? Are 90 cuts on the ends of the braces sufficient over mitered ends? If that were true, it sure would save me time, but I also know that the Internet is full of really bad ideas parading as "expert advice". FWIW, I have built and glued my first rib with the vertical braces mitered to probably within 1/16th. Am I in overkill, or doing what is the right way to construct? > > > > 2. I am thinking about building my wing ribs using Semi-Circle and Quarter-Circle gussets (I just like the look, although, once built and covered, I won't see them again). Since they are not the original plans type of gusset, what size circle did some of you use for your gussets? > > > > 3. I heard the instructor in an EAA workshop I attended ask the question, "Are you building a Timex, or a Rolex?" The point I felt he was making is that you can build and spend thousands of extra hours fitting tolerences that don't really make your aircraft any stronger, or you can build it using good practices and it will be just fine. That is not the same as "The Fisherman" school of aircraft construction, but yet it is a far cry from building a fine Swiss watch either. I guess that I am asking for words of advice in this regard as I begin building. Comments are appreciated. > > > > Thanks to everyone in advance for their advice. I count today in my Builder's Log as the day I began building my Pietenpol. Everything up until now has been "research", and I don't think the FAA or anyone else gives two hoots about how many hours of research I did. They are more interested in what I built, how I built it, and (at least to me) how many hours I spent building. > > > > -------- > > Semper Fi, > > > > Terry > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343267#343267 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Ben Charvet, PharmD > Staff Pharmacist > Parrish Medical center >


    Message 28


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    Time: 02:56:59 PM PST US
    Subject: A engine
    From: "bender" <jfaith@solairusaviation.com>
    Got a head for my engine this week... aluminum Thomas head 7:1... and made a decision on the ignition. got a mallory distributor and will run dual points like the corvair guys.. i've been driving my '30 AA a lot lately and even the original ignition it that old truck just works. no fabbing a mount and drive for the magneto... short wire runs.. and easy maintenance... i'm digging it. http://s1125.photobucket.com/albums/l593/jfaithbass/ got some photos up jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343339#343339


    Message 29


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    Time: 03:26:30 PM PST US
    From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: A engine
    Very nice looking work, Jeff! Are you coming to Brodhead this year? Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bender Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 5:53 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: A engine Got a head for my engine this week... aluminum Thomas head 7:1... and made a decision on the ignition. got a mallory distributor and will run dual points like the corvair guys.. i've been driving my '30 AA a lot lately and even the original ignition it that old truck just works. no fabbing a mount and drive for the magneto... short wire runs.. and easy maintenance... i'm digging it. http://s1125.photobucket.com/albums/l593/jfaithbass/ got some photos up jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343339#343339


    Message 30


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    Time: 03:57:22 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins
    From: "kevinpurtee" <kevin.purtee@us.army.mil>
    Who's the guy with all the dark hair, Ben? ;) do not archive -------- Kevin &quot;Axel&quot; Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343346#343346


    Message 31


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    Time: 04:21:20 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: A engine
    From: "bender" <jfaith@solairusaviation.com>
    thanks what is the date ?? i thought about riding a bike up... sold my 120 wish the piet was done ... but soon enough jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343350#343350


    Message 32


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    Time: 05:35:00 PM PST US
    From: Ben Charvet <bencharvet@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins
    And so much of it....Just to remind you guys just getting started, this process is a journey, and a lot of life goes on in the background. Ben On 6/17/2011 6:53 PM, kevinpurtee wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "kevinpurtee"<kevin.purtee@us.army.mil> > > Who's the guy with all the dark hair, Ben? > > ;) > > do not archive > > -------- > Kevin&quot;Axel&quot; Purtee > NX899KP > Austin/Georgetown, TX > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343346#343346 > > -- Ben Charvet, PharmD Staff Pharmacist Parrish Medical center


    Message 33


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    Time: 05:59:37 PM PST US
    From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: A engine
    Dates for Brodhead are Thursday 7/21 thru Saturday 7/23. On Sunday everybody either goes home or goes to Oshkosh. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bender Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 7:17 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A engine thanks what is the date ?? i thought about riding a bike up... sold my 120 wish the piet was done ... but soon enough jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343350#343350


    Message 34


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    Time: 08:32:15 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Building my first wing rib - the journey begins
    From: "kevinpurtee" <kevin.purtee@us.army.mil>
    Yeah, you can see all 16 years in my progress pics. do not archive -------- Kevin &quot;Axel&quot; Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343362#343362




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