---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 06/21/11: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:12 AM - Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance (Bill Church) 2. 05:09 AM - Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance (Don Emch) 3. 06:26 AM - Cloudcars Prop Performance (jeff wilson) 4. 06:53 AM - Re: Subject: NX929DH update....Model A guys take note (Pieti Lowell) 5. 06:56 AM - Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance (Jack Phillips) 6. 07:03 AM - Re: Cloudcars prop performance (Woodflier@aol.com) 7. 07:05 AM - Re: Twin Rivers flying (Woodflier@aol.com) 8. 07:19 AM - Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance (Boatright, Jeffrey) 9. 07:32 AM - Re: Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance (Dan Yocum) 10. 11:46 AM - Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance (Billy McCaskill) 11. 01:29 PM - Diesel (mark lee) 12. 02:04 PM - Re: Dan Helsper and his Pietenpol at the Poplar Grove Airport (Don Emch) 13. 03:02 PM - Re: Dan Helsper and his Pietenpol at the Poplar Grove Airport (bubbleboy) 14. 06:00 PM - Gasoline questions (helspersew@aol.com) 15. 06:08 PM - Re: Gasoline questions (Gene Rambo) 16. 06:10 PM - Re: Gasoline questions (Gene Rambo) 17. 06:59 PM - Re: Gasoline questions (Jerry Dotson) 18. 07:44 PM - Re: Gasoline questions (Billy McCaskill) 19. 09:47 PM - Re: Pietenpol Flying Video (rvanengen) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:12:23 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance From: "Bill Church" Dan, Rather than taking one of your wife's dresses to Brodhead, you could just wear one of your own. ;) BC do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343622#343622 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:09:41 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance From: "Don Emch" A few years ago I had Ed Sterba carve a prop for me. After a lot of research I told him I wanted it to be a 76 x 38. When I replaced my 72 x 42 with it I was very surprised at the performance. Since then I've been able to get a hold of a Falcon prop that performs close to the same but I just love the looks of it with the brass leading edge and all. So I sold the Sterba. But the Pietenpol really does need a larger diameter flatter pitch prop for the engines that turn somewhere in the 2100 rpm range. All that drag out there really needs that large prop disk to be effective at the slower speeds. Glad you are happy with it Jack! Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343627#343627 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:50 AM PST US From: jeff wilson Subject: Pietenpol-List: Cloudcars Prop Performance - Hey Guys, - I've been following the discussion about Cloudcars- Props for a little ov er a year now. - Jack, thanks for the excellent data.- I have a Hegy semi scimitar 72 x 42 that I have not yet mounted and tested but now when I do finally get her f lying, I'll have some solid numbers to compare to. - -I have two different Piets I may be able to try it on. One is the chapte r project,-an 800 pound GN-1 witrh an 0-200, the other is my long fuse Pi et with an A-65. It may come in around 670 lbs.- - Jack, the main difference I see is your 38" pitch. Great climb performance but what is your cruise performance and what size engine are you using? - Jeff Wilson St. Louis N899WT 75% done, 74% to go. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:58 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Subject: NX929DH update....Model A guys take note From: "Pieti Lowell" Don I can give you my experiences from a few years of Ford and Funk engines. Only a touch ! I use fresh fuel only if it is "Auto", less than 1 year old. 100 Oct will hold out much longer 2 years in a can , and works. Now. I have mentioned a number of times the following. I used to mix Marvel with all fuel, and didn't have a problem, I have been using a different mix, with the hottest plugs available I.E.,& at the same mix ratio : Amsoil 2 cycle oil : , Clearances of all valves .012", 7.5:1 compression.Never a stuck valve ! ! I have run out of water an flew and added 30 min. oil temps over 350 Deg. and still never damaged my Ford. I run inserts and a few mods if you are interested in the old stuff. I am now trying a horizontal flow radiator, that allows 10" open area up to the wing, and fly very differently. Will be at brodhead again. Pieti Lowell Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343634#343634 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:56:07 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Cloudcars Prop Performance Actually I think the 76" diameter has more effect than the lower pitch. It allows 11% more swept area, moving a larger column of air. Cruise performance with the Sensenich 72 x 40: 2150 RPM yields 65 mph Cruise performance with the Cloudcars: 2150 RPM yields 69 mph Calculating efficiencies based on the above gives an efficiency for the Sensenich of 79.83%. The Cloudcars has an efficiency of 89.20%. The combination of moving more air and doing it more efficiently is the key to the Cloudcars performance. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Smith Mountin Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jeff wilson Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 9:24 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Cloudcars Prop Performance Hey Guys, I've been following the discussion about Cloudcars Props for a little over a year now. Jack, thanks for the excellent data. I have a Hegy semi scimitar 72 x 42 that I have not yet mounted and tested but now when I do finally get her flying, I'll have some solid numbers to compare to. I have two different Piets I may be able to try it on. One is the chapter project, an 800 pound GN-1 witrh an 0-200, the other is my long fuse Piet with an A-65. It may come in around 670 lbs. Jack, the main difference I see is your 38" pitch. Great climb performance but what is your cruise performance and what size engine are you using? Jeff Wilson St. Louis N899WT 75% done, 74% to go. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:53 AM PST US From: Woodflier@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cloudcars prop performance Jack, glad you got the kind of performance improvement you were hoping for. I wonder what I would get with a longer prop like you got. Mine's 72 X 44 but I'm very satisfied with the performance. Now less worries about getting over those West Va mountains. Matt Paxton NX629ML ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:47 AM PST US From: Woodflier@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Twin Rivers flying Sorry Gene. With the Piet's first flight date in '29, I had that on the brain. Sure good to see you and the Travel Air and great that you brought Will, Peter and Peter. Matt ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:29 AM PST US From: "Boatright, Jeffrey" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Cloudcars Prop Performance Jack, Stunning! Your 30% performance increase may be even better than what we get ! No question, the CC prop was the biggest performance gain per dollar (and per unit of effort) that we've seen out our Piet. Jeff Boatright PS: It looks great, too! ________________________________ This e-mail message (including any attachments) is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this message (including any attachments) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply e-mail message and destroy all copies of the original message (including attachments). ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:32:17 AM PST US From: Dan Yocum Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance On 06/21/2011 05:09 AM, Bill Church wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Bill Church" > > Dan, > Rather than taking one of your wife's dresses to Brodhead, you could just wear one of your own. ;) I didn't want to be a barber anyway. I wanted to be a Lumberjack! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zey8567bcg oh no. no no no do not archive -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:20 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance From: "Billy McCaskill" If you want to be a lumberjack, Dan, that's ok! :) do not archive -------- Billy McCaskill Urbana, IL tail section almost done, starting on ribs soon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343665#343665 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:29:42 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Diesel From: mark lee I'm interested if anyone has found a diesel engine suitable for a Pietenpol.The name Chris Rusch came up as a possible diesel engine user.I don't see his name in the posts etc.Anyone know anything on this subject? ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:09 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dan Helsper and his Pietenpol at the Poplar Grove Airport From: "Don Emch" I think you are having way too much fun Dan! Very Nice!!! Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343677#343677 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:02:12 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dan Helsper and his Pietenpol at the Poplar Grove Airport From: "bubbleboy" After watching that I got off my rear end and glued rib 31! Very inspirational! Thanks for posting that Dan! Scotty -------- Scotty Tamworth, Australia Building a Corvair Powered Pietenpol Air Camper www.scottyspietenpol.com Rudder, Vert stab, Elevators and 30 Ribs built... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343681#343681 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:00:31 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Gasoline questions From: helspersew@aol.com Ok, I guess I don't get it. In the last day or so there have been several posts detailing anecdotal exp eriences with the use of different gasolines, comparing 100LL, unleaded aut o fuel etc. Some of the posts blamed the lead for fouling of plugs, and als o sticking of valves, and the implication was that the lead was a "bad" thi ng. When I went to A&P school, oh those many years ago, I can recall that t he reason for the lead was that there was some advantage to scavenging of e xhaust gasses. Seeing that the addition of lead to gasoline was the norm fo r many decades, I can only assume that the lead was added for a reason, cre ating some advantage in engine performance. The old 100 octane aviation gas oline had much more lead than the modern 100LL. The "wizards of smart" that were responsible for such things must have had a good reason for leaving s ome lead in the 100LL. How can the little bit of lead that is now used be r esponsible for plug and valve problems, but for all those previous decades it was just fine and dandy? Anyone with an opinion, informed or not, please chime-in so I can be enligh tened (or entertained at least) :O) Dan Helsper Puryear, TN. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:08:41 PM PST US From: Gene Rambo Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Gasoline questions Lead lubricates valves. The stuff on plugs is CARBON, not lead. Gene Rambo Sent from my iPhone On Jun 21, 2011, at 8:58 PM, helspersew@aol.com wrote: > Ok, I guess I don't get it. > > In the last day or so there have been several posts detailing anecdotal ex periences with the use of different gasolines, comparing 100LL, unleaded aut o fuel etc. Some of the posts blamed the lead for fouling of plugs, and also sticking of valves, and the implication was that the lead was a "bad" thing . When I went to A&P school, oh those many years ago, I can recall that the r eason for the lead was that there was some advantage to scavenging of exhaus t gasses. Seeing that the addition of lead to gasoline was the norm for many decades, I can only assume that the lead was added for a reason, creating s ome advantage in engine performance. The old 100 octane aviation gasoline ha d much more lead than the modern 100LL. The "wizards of smart" that were res ponsible for such things must have had a good reason for leaving some lead i n the 100LL. How can the little bit of lead that is now used be responsible f or plug and valve problems, but for all those previous decades it was just f ine and dandy? > > Anyone with an opinion, informed or not, please chime-in so I can be enlig htened (or entertained at least) :O) > > Dan Helsper > Puryear, TN. > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:10:01 PM PST US From: Gene Rambo Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Gasoline questions And, tetraethyl lead boosts octane, but I am no chemist. Gene Rambo Sent from my iPhone On Jun 21, 2011, at 8:58 PM, helspersew@aol.com wrote: > Ok, I guess I don't get it. > > In the last day or so there have been several posts detailing anecdotal ex periences with the use of different gasolines, comparing 100LL, unleaded aut o fuel etc. Some of the posts blamed the lead for fouling of plugs, and also sticking of valves, and the implication was that the lead was a "bad" thing . When I went to A&P school, oh those many years ago, I can recall that the r eason for the lead was that there was some advantage to scavenging of exhaus t gasses. Seeing that the addition of lead to gasoline was the norm for many decades, I can only assume that the lead was added for a reason, creating s ome advantage in engine performance. The old 100 octane aviation gasoline ha d much more lead than the modern 100LL. The "wizards of smart" that were res ponsible for such things must have had a good reason for leaving some lead i n the 100LL. How can the little bit of lead that is now used be responsible f or plug and valve problems, but for all those previous decades it was just f ine and dandy? > > Anyone with an opinion, informed or not, please chime-in so I can be enlig htened (or entertained at least) :O) > > Dan Helsper > Puryear, TN. > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:57 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Gasoline questions From: "Jerry Dotson" Here are some links that might clear the air a little. I will state my opinion and it is no engine with a compression ratio of 7.0 or less needs any lead at all. Lead is an octane booster. Read the Shell link closely. http://www.shell.com/home/content/aviation/aeroshell/technical_talk/techart18_30071600.html http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/tech_support/spark_plugs/faqs/faqread.asp -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 wing, tailfeathers done, fuselage rolling using Lycoming O-235 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343700#343700 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:26 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Gasoline questions From: "Billy McCaskill" I have always heard that lead protected the valves and the valve seats, which is why cars manufactured prior to the introduction of unleaded gas did not use hardened valve seats. I've seen cylinder heads from the 1960's and 70's where the valve seats have receded into the heads from excessive running on no-lead fuel. It is recommended to have hardened valve seats installed in vintage cylinder heads if you plan to drive the car (or fly the plane, Corvair guys) a lot on today's formulation of automotive gasoline. I have also heard that the lead increased the 'knock-resistance" of the fuel, probably from creating a higher octane rating as Gene mentioned... Anybody who was driving in the 60's and early 70's will remember that the "low grade" gas was 94 octane, and "Super" 103-108 octane was common in gas stations back then. The owner's manual for my 1967 Ford Fairlane 500 with the 200hp 289 specifies that the car be run on a MINIMUM of 94 octane gas, and if the car were to have the 300 0r 325hp, 390 cubic inch engine, they recommended 97 or higher. At the pump today, 93 is about the BEST you'll find although I do occasionally see 95 octane available at some Shell stations. -------- Billy McCaskill Urbana, IL tail section almost done, starting on ribs soon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343708#343708 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:47:53 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Flying Video From: "rvanengen" Makes me grin just watching...got the plans and starting to get the garage cleared out (and an A/C unit installed). :D -------- --Randall 02xB || !02xB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343723#343723 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.