Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Wed 06/22/11


Total Messages Posted: 43



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 01:10 AM - Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance (Clif Dawson)
     2. 03:36 AM - Re: Re: Gasoline questions (Jack)
     3. 03:45 AM -  Subject: Gasoline questions (Donald Lane)
     4. 04:31 AM - Re: Gasoline questions (Jerry Dotson)
     5. 04:57 AM - Re: Re: Gasoline questions (helspersew@aol.com)
     6. 05:13 AM - Re: Gasoline questions (Ben Charvet)
     7. 06:32 AM - Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance (Michael Perez)
     8. 06:54 AM - Re: Gasoline questions (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG FORSCOM)
     9. 07:04 AM - Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance (Bill Church)
    10. 07:30 AM - Re: Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance (Michael Perez)
    11. 07:33 AM - Re: Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance (Michael Perez)
    12. 07:38 AM - Re: Gasoline questions (AircamperN11MS)
    13. 07:39 AM - Re: Gasoline questions (Jack Phillips)
    14. 07:41 AM - Re: Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance (Ryan Mueller)
    15. 07:50 AM - Lead on Skark plugs. (Barry Davis)
    16. 07:50 AM - Re: Gasoline questions (Kip and Beth Gardner)
    17. 08:05 AM - Re: Gasoline questions (Jerry Dotson)
    18. 08:06 AM - Re: Gasoline questions (AircamperN11MS)
    19. 08:14 AM - Re: Lead on Skark plugs. (Jerry Dotson)
    20. 09:17 AM - Re: Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance (Jim Markle)
    21. 09:41 AM - Corvair College #20 (coxwelljon)
    22. 10:33 AM - Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance (Jeff Wilson)
    23. 11:15 AM - Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance (jarheadpilot82)
    24. 11:18 AM - Re: Corvair College #20 (jarheadpilot82)
    25. 11:21 AM - Re: Re: Gasoline questions (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG FORSCOM)
    26. 11:25 AM - Re: Gasoline questions (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG FORSCOM)
    27. 01:09 PM - Osh - Brodhead (Dick N)
    28. 01:15 PM - Re: Osh - Brodhead (K5YAC)
    29. 01:29 PM - Re: Osh - Brodhead (dog67@aol.com)
    30. 02:58 PM - Re: Osh - Brodhead (Jack Phillips)
    31. 03:25 PM - Cloud Car Scimitars (jeff wilson)
    32. 04:07 PM - Re: Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance (helspersew@aol.com)
    33. 05:05 PM - Re: Osh - Brodhead (kevinpurtee)
    34. 07:40 PM - Re: Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance (Ryan Mueller)
    35. 07:47 PM - Re: Osh - Brodhead (Don Emch)
    36. 07:53 PM - Re: Osh - Brodhead (K5YAC)
    37. 07:54 PM - Re: Re: Gasoline questions (Clif Dawson)
    38. 08:08 PM - engine mounted (bender)
    39. 08:50 PM - Re: Re: Osh - Brodhead (Dick N)
    40. 09:01 PM - clipped wing Stinson takeoff (off topic, but educational) (Oscar Zuniga)
    41. 09:23 PM - Re: Corvair College #20 (coxwelljon)
    42. 10:23 PM - Brodhead fuel status? (Greg Cardinal)
    43. 10:23 PM - Re: engine mounted (aerocarjake)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 01:10:54 AM PST US
    From: "Clif Dawson" <cdawson5854@shaw.ca>
    Subject: Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance
    Don't forget that some makers use the flat side of the blade as reference for pitch and others use the airfoil chord line. Two different 40" pitch props may not be the same pitch at all. That info is important for any meaningful comparison. Clif Cruise performance with the Sensenich 72 x 40: 2150 RPM yields 65 mph Cruise performance with the Cloudcars: 2150 RPM yields 69 mph Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Smith Mountin Lake, Virginia ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----


    Message 2


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    Time: 03:36:30 AM PST US
    From: "Jack" <jack@textors.com>
    Subject: Re: Gasoline questions
    Jerry, excellent articles! Thanks for sharing! Jack DSM Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Dotson Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 8:58 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Gasoline questions <jdotson@centurylink.net> Here are some links that might clear the air a little. I will state my opinion and it is no engine with a compression ratio of 7.0 or less needs any lead at all. Lead is an octane booster. Read the Shell link closely. http://www.shell.com/home/content/aviation/aeroshell/technical_talk/techart1 8_30071600.html http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/tech_support/spark_plugs/faqs/faqread.asp -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 wing, tailfeathers done, fuselage rolling using Lycoming O-235 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343700#343700


    Message 3


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    Time: 03:45:22 AM PST US
    From: "Donald Lane" <dslane@embarqmail.com>
    Subject: Gasoline questions
    Thanks to everyone for the advice on fuel for the A engine. I have the engine down now to redo the exhaust stacks. I will keep the valves well oiled in the meantime and maybe put a little oil in the fuel when I restart it. Don L


    Message 4


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    Time: 04:31:47 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Gasoline questions
    From: "Jerry Dotson" <jdotson@centurylink.net>
    I have a pretty good bit of auto gas experience but not in recent years. We ran auto gas in a Pawnee with an O-540 235 HP and a Stearman with a P&W 985 in the 70's. That gas had some lead in it. Then a Cessna 150 with an O-320 150 HP off a Piper Apache for several years with zero problems. The gas I ran in the Cessna 150 was unleaded 89 octane from Standard Oil. Filled it from my 500 gallon tank. I never got past the smell. The only difference I could tell between avgas and auto gas was the smell. -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 wing, tailfeathers done, fuselage rolling using Lycoming O-235 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343742#343742


    Message 5


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    Time: 04:57:17 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Gasoline questions
    From: helspersew@aol.com
    Great articles Jerry. This info will have to be digested. In my case I gues s it will be a process of trial and error to see what works best. Thanks fo r chiming in. Dan Helsper Puryear, TN. do not archive


    Message 6


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    Time: 05:13:20 AM PST US
    From: Ben Charvet <bencharvet@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Gasoline questions
    I've heard lots of stories of sticking valves in small continentals like the A-65 when using 100LL. I've been told its because they don't run hot enough to prevent the lead from depositing on the shaft of the valve, causing it to bind in the guide. An old A&P that was expaining it to me called it 100*L*otsa *L*ead. I live in Florida, and rarely see my oil temps above 140. Another thing to consider is the difference in specific gravity between 100LL and auto gas. This effectively changes the float level, which changes your mixture. When I rebuilt my carb, I used non-ethanol auto gas to set the float level On 6/21/2011 8:58 PM, helspersew@aol.com wrote: Ben Charvet Expected 103 Heat index today. Probably 2000' density altitude at 35 msl Titusville, Fl > Ok, I guess I don't get it. > In the last day or so there have been several posts detailing > anecdotal experiences with the use of different gasolines, comparing > 100LL, unleaded auto fuel etc. Some of the posts blamed the lead for > fouling of plugs, and also sticking of valves, and the implication was > that the lead was a "bad" thing. When I went to A&P school, oh those > many years ago, I can recall that the reason for the lead was that > there was some advantage to scavenging of exhaust gasses. Seeing that > the addition of lead to gasoline was the norm for many decades, I can > only assume that the lead was added for a reason, creating some > advantage in engine performance. The old 100 octane aviation gasoline > had much more lead than the modern 100LL. The "wizards of smart" that > were responsible for such things must have had a good reason for > leaving some lead in the 100LL. How can the little bit of lead that is > now used be responsible for plug and valve problems, but for all those > previous decades it was just fine and dandy? > Anyone with an opinion, informed or not, please chime-in so I can be > enlightened (or entertained at least) :O) > Dan Helsper > Puryear, TN. > * > > > * -- Ben Charvet, PharmD Staff Pharmacist Parrish Medical center


    Message 7


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    Time: 06:32:11 AM PST US
    From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Cloudcars Prop Performance
    I seem to remember a post a while back about these props having a "short li fe span". I don't remember any details other then the person was looking in to buying a new prop and said one draw back tothe Cloudcarse props was a sh ort life span.- Anyone have details on this? Michael Perez =0AKaretaker Aero =0Awww.karetakeraero.com


    Message 8


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    Time: 06:54:20 AM PST US
    From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG FORSCOM" <steven.d.dortch@us.army.mil>
    Subject: Re: Gasoline questions
    My airport coffee discussions lead me to believe that plug fowling is more of a problem on the early engines that were OK with 80 Octane than on engines that require the higher octane. While I will probably be able to fly my old Bonanza on anything with the octane of hair oil, There is concern that suddenly stopping the use of 100 LL with no replacement could ground 20 % of our fleet. That affects everyone who flies. We don't need a divot like that in our pilot population. Blue Skies, Steve D ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Charvet <bencharvet@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Gasoline questions > I've heard lots of stories of sticking valves in small continentals > like > the A-65 when using 100LL. I've been told its because they don't > run > hot enough to prevent the lead from depositing on the shaft of the > valve, causing it to bind in the guide. An old A&P that was > expaining it > to me called it 100*L*otsa *L*ead. I live in Florida, and rarely > see > my oil temps above 140. Another thing to consider is the > difference in > specific gravity between 100LL and auto gas. This effectively > changes > the float level, which changes your mixture. When I rebuilt my > carb, I > used non-ethanol auto gas to set the float level > On 6/21/2011 8:58 PM, helspersew@aol.com wrote: > > Ben Charvet > Expected 103 Heat index today. Probably 2000' density altitude at > 35 msl > Titusville, Fl > > Ok, I guess I don't get it. > > In the last day or so there have been several posts detailing > > anecdotal experiences with the use of different gasolines, > comparing > > 100LL, unleaded auto fuel etc. Some of the posts blamed the lead > for > > fouling of plugs, and also sticking of valves, and the > implication was > > that the lead was a "bad" thing. When I went to A&P school, oh > those > > many years ago, I can recall that the reason for the lead was > that > > there was some advantage to scavenging of exhaust gasses. Seeing > that > > the addition of lead to gasoline was the norm for many decades, I > can > > only assume that the lead was added for a reason, creating some > > advantage in engine performance. The old 100 octane aviation > gasoline > > had much more lead than the modern 100LL. The "wizards of smart" > that > > were responsible for such things must have had a good reason for > > leaving some lead in the 100LL. How can the little bit of lead > that is > > now used be responsible for plug and valve problems, but for all > those > > previous decades it was just fine and dandy? > > Anyone with an opinion, informed or not, please chime-in so I can > be > > enlightened (or entertained at least) :O) > > Dan Helsper > > Puryear, TN. > > * > > > > > > * > > > -- > Ben Charvet, PharmD > Staff Pharmacist > Parrish Medical center >


    Message 9


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    Time: 07:04:42 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance
    From: "Bill Church" <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
    The unsubstantiated "short life span" claim was regarding scimitar propellers in general, NOT Cloudcars propellers. However, Cloudcars did issue a response when the question was posed: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=69612 Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343760#343760


    Message 10


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    Time: 07:30:58 AM PST US
    From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance
    Thanks Bill. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com


    Message 11


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    Time: 07:33:44 AM PST US
    From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance
    For those of us whom use these propellers, how do they compare in price to other appropriately sized propellers? I am very interested in using one when the time comes. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com


    Message 12


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    Time: 07:38:28 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Gasoline questions
    From: "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld@lacity.org>
    I am flying behind stock Cont. C-85-12F engine with the old style cylinder heads. I have an all metal fuel system except for an 8" piece of aircraft quality air-quip hose between the gascolator and carb. I have a metal float and needle and seat in my carb. Here is my experience with auto and 100LL. I have found that when I run pure auto gas that it is a little harder to start but still easy to do whether the engine is hot or cold. If I run the auto gas for a few hundred hours without the Marvel Mystery oil in the gas, I risk sticking an exhaust valve on the right front cylinder. The fix is to just remove the exhaust valve and run a 7/16" reamer through the guide, hand lap the valve and re assemble it. Now if I run 100LL it will start with less priming and will flood easier when hot. If pure 100LL is run for about 60 to 80hours I will be blessed with a lead fowled lower plug. All that being said, I typically will fill up with auto one time and 100LL the next time without the use of the Marvel Mystery oil. I have never had a problem with this method and it is easy to do if you are just flying locally. Out here on the west coast we don't have Mogas available at the airports. One other point I must make. Because I have an all metal fuel system and don't fly above 9000 feet, I have never been concerned with the auto gas additives (alcohol and ethanol) and have not had any engine problems related to them. Maybe I am just lucky. Your results may vary, [/b] -------- Scott Liefeld Flying N11MS since March 1972 Steel Tube C-85-12 Wire Wheels Brodhead in 1996 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343766#343766


    Message 13


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    Time: 07:39:26 AM PST US
    From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Gasoline questions
    100 Octane (the green stuff) had 10 times the amount of lead that was in 80/87 (the old red stuff). 100LL (the blue stuff) has less lead that 100, but it still has 4 times as much as 80 Octane had. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Charvet Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 8:11 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Gasoline questions I've heard lots of stories of sticking valves in small continentals like the A-65 when using 100LL. I've been told its because they don't run hot enough to prevent the lead from depositing on the shaft of the valve, causing it to bind in the guide. An old A&P that was expaining it to me called it 100 Lotsa Lead. I live in Florida, and rarely see my oil temps above 140. Another thing to consider is the difference in specific gravity between 100LL and auto gas. This effectively changes the float level, which changes your mixture. When I rebuilt my carb, I used non-ethanol auto gas to set the float level On 6/21/2011 8:58 PM, helspersew@aol.com wrote: Ben Charvet Expected 103 Heat index today. Probably 2000' density altitude at 35 msl Titusville, Fl Ok, I guess I don't get it. In the last day or so there have been several posts detailing anecdotal experiences with the use of different gasolines, comparing 100LL, unleaded auto fuel etc. Some of the posts blamed the lead for fouling of plugs, and also sticking of valves, and the implication was that the lead was a "bad" thing. When I went to A&P school, oh those many years ago, I can recall that the reason for the lead was that there was some advantage to scavenging of exhaust gasses. Seeing that the addition of lead to gasoline was the norm for many decades, I can only assume that the lead was added for a reason, creating some advantage in engine performance. The old 100 octane aviation gasoline had much more lead than the modern 100LL. The "wizards of smart" that were responsible for such things must have had a good reason for leaving some lead in the 100LL. How can the little bit of lead that is now used be responsible for plug and valve problems, but for all those previous decades it was just fine and dandy? Anyone with an opinion, informed or not, please chime-in so I can be enlightened (or entertained at least) :O) Dan Helsper Puryear, TN. -- Ben Charvet, PharmD Staff Pharmacist Parrish Medical center


    Message 14


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    Time: 07:41:24 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance
    From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com>
    I don't believe it. Why aren't you going to to design your own propeller? ;-) do not archive On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 9:31 AM, Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>wrote: > For those of us whom use these propellers, how do they compare in price to > other appropriately sized propellers? I am very interested in using one when > the time comes. > > Michael Perez > Karetaker Aero > www.karetakeraero.com > > * > > * > >


    Message 15


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    Time: 07:50:28 AM PST US
    From: "Barry Davis" <bed@mindspring.com>
    Subject: Lead on Skark plugs.
    I wish I had taken more pictures of all the "lead" I flaked out of the cylinders and out of these plugs. It filled the palm of my hand, twice! This is the result of a trip from Atlanta to Key West, Fl. One summer, Harold and I decided to fly to Key West, so off we went. Mike flew with me in the straight tail 150 and Paul rode along with Harold in his 100HP J3 Cub. On the trip I had to fly at 1900 to 2050 RPM to be able to fly beside the Cub. Normally I fly the Cessna at 2550 cruise. At this reduced setting, the engine never got up to operating temperature. We logged 25 hours of flying time on this trip over a 10 day period, but did not realize I was having a problem until about a month later. On landing at Huntsville, AL, I got 2 stuck valves on final at the airport. I got them unstuck and flew back home, but one valve stuck again when I reduced power at my home airport. I pulled the cylinders and cleaned about a half pint of chalky tan lead deposits out of the cylinders and had to really work on the spark plugs. Jump ahead 2 years - The first year that a couple of the Big Piets went to Sun n Fun, I flew the Cessna with spare parts and tools, just in case we had a problem. I had the same lead problem flying with the Piets. I had to fly at 1800 to 1900 RPM for 12 hours and got the same leading problem. this time I tried the "knock the valve into the cylinder" fix and everything is back to normal. (see article I wrote in the June Sport Aviation) So the moral of this story is: When the Cubs fly somewhere, I fly my Cub. When the Cessnas fly, I fly the Cessna, and for the Big Piets, same applies. Now I have no more lead fouling problems. Barry NX973BP


    Message 16


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    Time: 07:50:32 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Gasoline questions
    From: Kip and Beth Gardner <kipandbeth@earthlink.net>
    Plug Fowling? You have chickens in your cylinders? That would be a real performance killer :). Sorry, couldn't help it. Do not archive. Kip Gardner On Jun 22, 2011, at 9:51 AM, Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG FORSCOM wrote: > > My airport coffee discussions lead me to believe that plug fowling is more of a problem on the early engines that were OK with 80 Octane than on engines that require the higher octane. > > While I will probably be able to fly my old Bonanza on anything with the octane of hair oil, There is concern that suddenly stopping the use of 100 LL with no replacement could ground 20 % of our fleet. That affects everyone who flies. We don't need a divot like that in our pilot population. > > Blue Skies, > Steve D > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ben Charvet <bencharvet@gmail.com> > Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 7:18 > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Gasoline questions > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > >> I've heard lots of stories of sticking valves in small continentals >> like >> the A-65 when using 100LL. I've been told its because they don't >> run >> hot enough to prevent the lead from depositing on the shaft of the >> valve, causing it to bind in the guide. An old A&P that was >> expaining it >> to me called it 100*L*otsa *L*ead. I live in Florida, and rarely >> see >> my oil temps above 140. Another thing to consider is the >> difference in >> specific gravity between 100LL and auto gas. This effectively >> changes >> the float level, which changes your mixture. When I rebuilt my >> carb, I >> used non-ethanol auto gas to set the float level >> On 6/21/2011 8:58 PM, helspersew@aol.com wrote: >> >> Ben Charvet >> Expected 103 Heat index today. Probably 2000' density altitude at >> 35 msl >> Titusville, Fl >>> Ok, I guess I don't get it. >>> In the last day or so there have been several posts detailing >>> anecdotal experiences with the use of different gasolines, >> comparing >>> 100LL, unleaded auto fuel etc. Some of the posts blamed the lead >> for >>> fouling of plugs, and also sticking of valves, and the >> implication was >>> that the lead was a "bad" thing. When I went to A&P school, oh >> those >>> many years ago, I can recall that the reason for the lead was >> that >>> there was some advantage to scavenging of exhaust gasses. Seeing >> that >>> the addition of lead to gasoline was the norm for many decades, I >> can >>> only assume that the lead was added for a reason, creating some >>> advantage in engine performance. The old 100 octane aviation >> gasoline >>> had much more lead than the modern 100LL. The "wizards of smart" >> that >>> were responsible for such things must have had a good reason for >>> leaving some lead in the 100LL. How can the little bit of lead >> that is >>> now used be responsible for plug and valve problems, but for all >> those >>> previous decades it was just fine and dandy? >>> Anyone with an opinion, informed or not, please chime-in so I can >> be >>> enlightened (or entertained at least) :O) >>> Dan Helsper >>> Puryear, TN. >>> * >>> >>> >>> * >> >> >> -- >> Ben Charvet, PharmD >> Staff Pharmacist >> Parrish Medical center >> > > > >


    Message 17


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    Time: 08:05:07 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Gasoline questions
    From: "Jerry Dotson" <jdotson@centurylink.net>
    My brother has a Skyranger with 240 hours on the Rotax 912ULS running 93 octane with 10% ethanol with no problems to date. We can't find any gas without ethanol in it. The only difference we can tell between the non-ethanol and the 10% ethanol is it takes a little more per hour but not much more. He has been running the 10% ethanol since 2007. -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 wing, tailfeathers done, fuselage rolling using Lycoming O-235 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343773#343773


    Message 18


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    Time: 08:06:08 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Gasoline questions
    From: "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld@lacity.org>
    I didn't think you would catch on to my secret. Yes, the chickens have wings and wings create lift. That's why my plane climbs so well. Want to know another secret? If you remove the inspection plates from the bottom of the wings and then fly upside down, All the lift will fall out. Not good! Secrets are out. -------- Scott Liefeld Flying N11MS since March 1972 Steel Tube C-85-12 Wire Wheels Brodhead in 1996 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343774#343774


    Message 19


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    Time: 08:14:47 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Lead on Skark plugs.
    From: "Jerry Dotson" <jdotson@centurylink.net>
    Barry at that low of a power setting(1900 to 2050 RPM) you can lean your engine until it starts getting rough and push the mixture back in just far enough to smooth it up and really help with that problem. You can't hurt an engine at that low power. Just have to remember before landing to go back full rich in case of needing a go round. I spotted fish in a 150 Super Cub at just enough power to keep it airborne for hours at a time. It would gunk up like that if you didn't lean the heck out of it. -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 wing, tailfeathers done, fuselage rolling using Lycoming O-235 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343777#343777


    Message 20


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    Time: 09:17:33 AM PST US
    From: Jim Markle <jim_markle@mindspring.com>
    Subject: Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance
    After completely re-designing a homebuilt how could anyone have time left to design a prop???? :-) -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Mueller Sent: Jun 22, 2011 9:39 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance I don't believe it. Why aren't you going to to design your own propeller? ;-) do not archive On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 9:31 AM, Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net> wrote: For those of us whom use these propellers, how do they compare in price to other appropriately sized propellers? I am very interested in using one when the time comes. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution


    Message 21


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    Time: 09:41:31 AM PST US
    Subject: Corvair College #20
    From: "coxwelljon" <coxwelljon@frontiernet.net>
    This is a little late but I thought I would post anyway for those Corvair guys or those considering the Corvair engine. Early in the month I loaded my engine parts and drove some 650 miles to Corvair College #20 in hopes that I could assemble and run my engine. This was wishful thinking but the experience of attending was well worth it. I am reconverting an engine that came with a project and it was supposed to be ready to fly and actually had been run for 5 hrs static. I got wind of some things that had not been done so I decided to disassemble my engine and make some changes. I also saw the location of Corvair College #20 and decided it was happening about as close as I would find to my location, at least for the foreseeable future. My engine did not have a nitrided crank or forged pistons which was the main reason for me deciding to disassemble it. I want to add a pitch here. I found the name of Advanced Heat Treat Corp. on Mark Langford's website as a place that does nitriding. This is not the firm that William Wynn recommends but I decided to use them as they are a company with some 30 years of experience in the treatment of metals. They also had a competitive price. I sent them my crankshaft and picked it up at one of their facilities on my way to the CC#20. I cannot say enough good things about the way I was treated. They went out of their way to accomodate my situation and I was only getting one crank done by a facility that is set up to do production work for manufacturing. I even got a handwritten thank you for my business after I returned home. They would certainly be my choice again for magnafluxing and nitriding. Now some about the College. There were about 60 people there and I would say that there were 20 engines in various stages from disassembly to final running. I think 12 to 15 engines ran on the test stand. There were also flying examples of corvair powered aircraft there to look at and talk with the builders. The following are some of my thoughts. 1. The college did not include "lecture" sessions with handouts or diagrams but was very much a hands on workshop. That said I was glad I had my engine parts there to work on and I was not just an onlooker. One can get a lot out of watching, but the real value for me was actually working with the tools and getting a feel for what I was doing. 2. You will see a lot of different solution to the same problems so the opportunity to circulate around and talk to other builders is invaluable. One may have made up their mind on a particular part to buy or not to buy and the give and take with other builders is a big advantage. 3. There were 3 experts there and their time obviously got divided up among the various projects. At times is was necessary to be a little forward to get their attention, but doing so resulted in how to sessions that benefited the whole group. If you attend and see a group gathered go see what is going on. It likely will be something you will also need to do or have done. 4. There was a real sense of sharing of tools, parts, and expertise. My table mate was continually into my tool box and I was borrowing special tools from other tables. When I needed to start a particular phase the guy from the table next to me was there to show me the process as he had already done his. Parts that I had were used on other engines to get them on the test stand, and my table mate borrowed a whole starter assembly from another engine to get his on the test stand. 5. Some lasting friendship were created. I received 2 emails as soon as I got home from people I met inquiring about my return trip and with promised information. I got there the day before everything started and 5 of us who did not know each other went out to dinner together to get acquainted. 6. Food was good and no one went away hungry. 7. I enjoyed getting to know William Wynne, and Roy Szarafinski of Roy's Garageon on a more personal level which gave me a greater appreciation for their knowledge and mechanical skills. I now see them as being far more approachable for questions. Many people there had attended previous colleges, this was my first. If you are assembling a corvair engine or plan to consider one for your project then attending at least one Corvair College should be on your list. If anyone has particular question about my experience at this College, email me and I will be happy to respond. -------- Jon Coxwell GN-1 Builder Recycle and preserve the planet Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343783#343783


    Message 22


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    Time: 10:33:09 AM PST US
    From: Jeff Wilson <jlwilsonnn@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance
    I believe that was in response to scimitar props in general. A true scimitar prop does a lot of flexing and were used mainly on racers ba ck in the day. Modern scimitars are a semi- scimitars and more lasting. But I 'm not sure if they are more lasting than say your standard Sensenich. I have an email from cloud cars explaining this and I'll look it up and post it later today. Jeff Wilson N899WT St. Louis, MO Sent from my iPhone On Jun 22, 2011, at 8:28 AM, Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > I seem to remember a post a while back about these props having a "short l ife span". I don't remember any details other then the person was looking in to buying a new prop and said one draw back tothe Cloudcarse props was a sho rt life span. Anyone have details on this? > > Michael Perez > Karetaker Aero > www.karetakeraero.com > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= >


    Message 23


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    Time: 11:15:21 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance
    From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com>
    Could someone explain to me the definition of "rather short life span"? Coming back into airplane flying that involves a propeller (it has been over 20 years since I consistently flew an aircraft with a propeller, and that one was metal), I have no real frame of reference. This discussion of the Scimitar prop has got me to thinkin' (a dangerous thing, to be sure). With a wooden prop, what are the indications that you are approaching the end of the prop's life span? I can imagine that there are preflight indications. Do indicators manifest themselves in flight? I certainly would hate to find out what it looks like AFTER the prop has exceeded its life span! What about metal or composite props? Does anyone fly composite or metal props on a Pietenpol? Thanks in advance for the information. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343791#343791


    Message 24


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    Time: 11:18:58 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Corvair College #20
    From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com>
    Jon, Thanks for the really in depth description. Would it be advisable for someone without a Corvair to attend and just watch? Is an extra set of hands welcome if all I wanted to do was help someone with their project and learn a little at the same time? Thanks again. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343792#343792


    Message 25


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    Time: 11:21:31 AM PST US
    From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG FORSCOM" <steven.d.dortch@us.army.mil>
    Subject: Re: Gasoline questions
    NW Oklahoma all the stations have signs that say 100% Gasoline No ethanol. San Antonio, Texas you can't find ethanol free gas. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Dotson <jdotson@centurylink.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Gasoline questions > > My brother has a Skyranger with 240 hours on the Rotax 912ULS running 93 octane with 10% ethanol with no problems to date. We can't find any gas > without ethanol in it. The only difference we can tell between the > non-ethanol and the 10% ethanol is it takes a little more per hour > but not much more. He has been running the 10% ethanol since 2007. > > -------- > Jerry Dotson > 59 Daniel Johnson Rd > Baker, FL 32531 > > Started building NX510JD July, 2009 > wing, tailfeathers done, fuselage rolling > using Lycoming O-235 > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343773#343773 > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 26


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    Time: 11:25:58 AM PST US
    From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG FORSCOM" <steven.d.dortch@us.army.mil>
    Subject: Re: Gasoline questions
    Not only kills performance, the stench of burned feathers is awful. It ain't funy to mak fun of us suthern ainglish spekers. BLU skis Steve D ----- Original Message ----- From: Kip and Beth Gardner <kipandbeth@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Gasoline questions > > Plug Fowling? You have chickens in your cylinders? That would be a real performance killer :). > > Sorry, couldn't help it. > > Do not archive. > > Kip Gardner > > On Jun 22, 2011, at 9:51 AM, Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG FORSCOM wrote: > > > > > My airport coffee discussions lead me to believe that plug fowling is more of a problem on the early engines that were OK with 80 Octane than on engines that require the higher octane. > > > > While I will probably be able to fly my old Bonanza on anything with the octane of hair oil, There is concern that suddenly stopping the use of 100 LL with no replacement could ground 20 % of our fleet. That affects everyone who flies. We don't need a divot like that in our pilot population. > > > > Blue Skies, > > Steve D > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Ben Charvet < > > Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 7:18 > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Gasoline questions > > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > > > > >> I've heard lots of stories of sticking valves in small continentals > >> like > >> the A-65 when using 100LL. I've been told its because they don't > >> run > >> hot enough to prevent the lead from depositing on the shaft of the > >> valve, causing it to bind in the guide. An old A&P that was > >> expaining it > >> to me called it 100*L*otsa *L*ead. I live in Florida, and rarely > >> see > >> my oil temps above 140. Another thing to consider is the > >> difference in > >> specific gravity between 100LL and auto gas. This effectively > >> changes > >> the float level, which changes your mixture. When I rebuilt my > >> carb, I > >> used non-ethanol auto gas to set the float level > >> On 6/21/2011 8:58 PM, helspersew@aol.com wrote: > >> > >> Ben Charvet > >> Expected 103 Heat index today. Probably 2000' density altitude at > >> 35 msl > >> Titusville, Fl > >>> Ok, I guess I don't get it. > >>> In the last day or so there have been several posts detailing > >>> anecdotal experiences with the use of different gasolines, > >> comparing > >>> 100LL, unleaded auto fuel etc. Some of the posts blamed the lead > >> for > >>> fouling of plugs, and also sticking of valves, and the > >> implication was > >>> that the lead was a "bad" thing. When I went to A&P school, oh > >> those > >>> many years ago, I can recall that the reason for the lead was > >> that > >>> there was some advantage to scavenging of exhaust gasses. Seeing > >> that > >>> the addition of lead to gasoline was the norm for many decades, I > >> can > >>> only assume that the lead was added for a reason, creating some > >>> advantage in engine performance. The old 100 octane aviation > >> gasoline > >>> had much more lead than the modern 100LL. The "wizards of smart" > >> that > >>> were responsible for such things must have had a good reason for > >>> leaving some lead in the 100LL. How can the little bit of lead > >> that is > >>> now used be responsible for plug and valve problems, but for all > >> those > >>> previous decades it was just fine and dandy? > >>> Anyone with an opinion, informed or not, please chime-in so I can > >> be > >>> enlightened (or entertained at least) :O) > >>> Dan Helsper > >>> Puryear, TN. > >>> * > >>> > >>> > >>> * > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Ben Charvet, PharmD > >> Staff Pharmacist > >> Parrish Medical center > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 27


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    Time: 01:09:46 PM PST US
    From: "Dick N" <horzpool@goldengate.net>
    Subject: Osh - Brodhead
    Is anybody going up to OSH after Brodhead. It would be nice to a group fly thing like 2 years ago. I am going up on Sun am. if weather is good. Dick N.


    Message 28


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    Time: 01:15:43 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Osh - Brodhead
    From: "K5YAC" <hangar10@cox.net>
    My family and I are going up, but we'll have to wave to you from Hwy 151. :-( -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343804#343804


    Message 29


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    Time: 01:29:11 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Osh - Brodhead
    From: dog67@aol.com
    I am, but my Piet is still under construction, so it'll be in the yellow pl astic plane. But will still be drooling over the "real" planes Cheers Jon Apfelbaum (Glastar N767JA) -----Original Message----- From: Dick N <horzpool@goldengate.net> Sent: Wed, Jun 22, 2011 10:10 am Subject: Pietenpol-List: Osh - Brodhead Is anybody going up to OSH after Brodhead. It would be nice to a group fly thing like 2 years ago. I am going up on Sun am. if weather is good. Dick N.


    Message 30


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    Time: 02:58:31 PM PST US
    From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Osh - Brodhead
    Me too. And I think Matt Paxton will bring his new ship there after Brodhead. Randy Bush was talking about going as well, if we could get a group going. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick N Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 4:07 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Osh - Brodhead Is anybody going up to OSH after Brodhead. It would be nice to a group fly thing like 2 years ago. I am going up on Sun am. if weather is good. Dick N.


    Message 31


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    Time: 03:25:31 PM PST US
    From: jeff wilson <jlwilsonnn@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Cloud Car Scimitars
    >From March of 2010 - In reply to the comments about our propellers' lifespan..... Before everyone goes into a panic, I'd like to clear up a possible misunder standing!!!! The Scimitars that we cut are NOT "true functioning" Scimitars. They are a "profile Scimitar" (basically like a club profile). All propeller blades will flex. A true functioning Scimitar is designed to flex a lot more than a conventio nal propeller, and along more of the blade span. On a true functioning Scim itar the lams are vertical instead of horizontal, so as to amplify the wood s flexing characteristics. This is not so with our Scimitars. Our lams are a conventional horizontal sandwich or stack, just like Senseni ch and others. The airfoil is cut the same also. There is a slight flexing at the tip, whi ch is common in all propellers, especially those with a blade sweep. I'm no t sure how someone came up with 500 hours.....all woods have different char acteristics and there is no way this could be applied in a concrete way. If any of you guys have knowledge of bow making/archery, especially long bows ...this might help to explain the different characteristics of wood elastic ity. You won't find us on the internet, we don't have a website, or advertise an y more. All of our business is by referral and word of mouth. If you have any questions or concerns, please contact me. Jay Anderson CLOUDCARS cloudcars(at)verizon.net 325-356-2810


    Message 32


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    Time: 04:07:14 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance
    From: helspersew@aol.com
    HEY! What's wrong with that? Dan Helsper Puryear, TN. do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com> Sent: Wed, Jun 22, 2011 9:41 am Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance I don't believe it. Why aren't you going to to design your own propeller? ;-) do not archive On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 9:31 AM, Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net> w rote: For those of us whom use these propellers, how do they compare in price to other appropriately sized propellers? I am very interested in using one whe n the time comes. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List p://forums.matronics.com blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -========================


    Message 33


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    Time: 05:05:51 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Osh - Brodhead
    From: "kevinpurtee" <kevin.purtee@us.army.mil>
    I'll go with you, Dick (Good Lord willin' and the creek don't rise). My stock gas tank gives me short legs so I refuel at Watertown to handle any potential delays arriving at OSH. We can work the logistics and timing of that at C37. do not archive -------- Kevin &quot;Axel&quot; Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343831#343831


    Message 34


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    Time: 07:40:17 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Cloudcars Prop Performance
    From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com>
    The main issue with short life span....is overthinking. There is no issue On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 1:12 PM, jarheadpilot82 <jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com>wrote: > jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com> > > Could someone explain to me the definition of "rather short life span"? > Coming back into airplane flying that involves a propeller (it has been over > 20 years since I consistently flew an aircraft with a propeller, and that > one was metal), I have no real frame of reference. This discussion of the > Scimitar prop has got me to thinkin' (a dangerous thing, to be sure). > > With a wooden prop, what are the indications that you are approaching the > end of the prop's life span? I can imagine that there are preflight > indications. Do indicators manifest themselves in flight? I certainly would > hate to find out what it looks like AFTER the prop has exceeded its life > span! What about metal or composite props? Does anyone fly composite or > metal props on a Pietenpol? > > Thanks in advance for the information. > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343791#343791 > >


    Message 35


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    Time: 07:47:29 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Osh - Brodhead
    From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir@aol.com>
    You guys are making me want to just burn all my vacation time and go to OSH too! Hmmmm... decisions...decisions! Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343841#343841


    Message 36


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    Time: 07:53:55 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Osh - Brodhead
    From: "K5YAC" <hangar10@cox.net>
    Don Emch wrote: > You guys are making me want to just burn all my vacation time and go to OSH too! Hmmmm... decisions...decisions! > > Don Emch > NX899DE I'm burning most of mine... let's all go! -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343844#343844


    Message 37


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    Time: 07:54:08 PM PST US
    From: "Clif Dawson" <cdawson5854@shaw.ca>
    Subject: Re: Gasoline questions
    Are we talkin' a larger version of this puppy?? http://www.markfelling.com/id385.htm Clif do not archive > I didn't think you would catch on to my secret. Yes, the chickens have > wings and wings create lift. That's why my plane climbs so well. > Secrets are out. > Scott Liefeld


    Message 38


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    Time: 08:08:04 PM PST US
    Subject: engine mounted
    From: "bender" <jfaith@solairusaviation.com>
    i've watched Dan's flying video 50 times i'm sure....i'm jealous so i set my engine in place today after painting the intake and making a wedge for the carb out of aluminum instead of cutting the intake itself.... makes it look closer to done jeff in stormy louisville Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343850#343850 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/carb_135.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/engine_181.jpg


    Message 39


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    Time: 08:50:05 PM PST US
    From: "Dick N" <horzpool@goldengate.net>
    Subject: Re: Osh - Brodhead
    Hey Kevin Great to hear you are on board. We will be able to make an event out of this yet. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "kevinpurtee" <kevin.purtee@us.army.mil> Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 7:03 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Osh - Brodhead > <kevin.purtee@us.army.mil> > > I'll go with you, Dick (Good Lord willin' and the creek don't rise). > > My stock gas tank gives me short legs so I refuel at Watertown to handle > any potential delays arriving at OSH. We can work the logistics and > timing of that at C37. > > do not archive > > -------- > Kevin &quot;Axel&quot; Purtee > NX899KP > Austin/Georgetown, TX > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343831#343831 > > >


    Message 40


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    Time: 09:01:08 PM PST US
    From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags@hotmail.com>
    Subject: clipped wing Stinson takeoff (off topic, but educational)
    It's a 108-3=2C with an 6A4-165-B3 Franklin in it. Go to http://tinyurl.com/3hx847q A short=2C but instructional=2C video concerning planning your takeoff. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" Flying Squirrel N2069Z "Rocket" Medford=2C OR (soon to be Eagle Point=2C Oregon) website at http://www.flysquirrel.net


    Message 41


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    Time: 09:23:17 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Corvair College #20
    From: "coxwelljon" <coxwelljon@frontiernet.net>
    There were 60 people in attendance and only 20 engines. Many were only lookers. If you wanted to team up with someone I am sure your help would be welcomed. Get there early and look for someone who is disassembling an engine or has lots of parts. They will be the ones that need the most help. Just ask if you can help for the experience. If you could do that I think the experience would be more beneficial. I am a hands on person and I retain more if I can actually do some work. One thing I failed to mention was that discussion of politics and religion were off limits. I thought that was a real breath of fresh air. -------- Jon Coxwell GN-1 Builder Recycle and preserve the planet Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343858#343858


    Message 42


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    Time: 10:23:12 PM PST US
    From: "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal@comcast.net>
    Subject: Brodhead fuel status?
    What is the status of fuel availability at Brodhead this year? Greg C.


    Message 43


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    Time: 10:23:32 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: engine mounted
    From: "aerocarjake" <flight.jake@gmail.com>
    Beautiful......! -------- Jake Schultz - curator, Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343861#343861




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