Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:47 AM - Re: Don flying his Chief up instead of Piet (Don Emch)
2. 06:22 AM - Insurance (amsafetyc@aol.com)
3. 06:32 AM - Re: Turnbuckles (amsafetyc@aol.com)
4. 07:18 AM - Re: Insurance (Perry Rhoads)
5. 07:40 AM - Re: Turnbuckles (Greg Cardinal)
6. 08:03 AM - Re: Turnbuckles (Charles Campbell)
7. 08:38 AM - Re: Insurance (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG FORSCOM)
8. 12:13 PM - Re: Insurance (Doug Dever)
9. 02:52 PM - Re: Insurance (aerocarjake)
10. 02:54 PM - Re: Insurance (aerocarjake)
11. 03:08 PM - Re: Insurance (Bill Church)
12. 03:24 PM - Re: high altitude Piet (Ken Bickers)
13. 03:58 PM - Re: Turnbuckles (jim)
14. 03:59 PM - Re: Turnbuckles (jim)
15. 04:00 PM - Re: Turnbuckles (jim)
16. 06:14 PM - Re: High altitude piet (Ken Bickers)
17. 06:18 PM - Re: Insurance (Charles Campbell)
18. 07:15 PM - Re: Re: High altitude piet (mark lee)
19. 07:32 PM - Re: Re: High altitude piet (Ken Bickers)
20. 07:35 PM - Re: Insurance (Don Emch)
21. 07:52 PM - Re: Insurance (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG FORSCOM)
22. 08:32 PM - Re: Re: High altitude piet (mark lee)
23. 09:24 PM - Re: Insurance (K5YAC)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Don flying his Chief up instead of Piet |
Ha! My wife Gretchen, of all people, told me it just wouldn't be right. She said
if I'm "flyin' to Brodhead it better be in the Piet". (umm...not that us
Piet guys let our wives tell us what to do...) Don't know what I was thinking!
Douwe, looks like we get to stay friends!!
Don Emch
NX899DE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=344847#344847
Message 2
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Since moving into the hangar I contacted my Allstate insurance agent to find
out about coverage for my almost an airplane. I wasn certain if it woul be
considered an airplane or content. They were going to contact home office
and get back to me,still waiting.....
So the question in my mind is at what point does it become an airplane? Like
everyone else I too am highly protective of my thousands of hours of work
and up to date accomplishments and would like to bind appropriate coverage
for all non act of God perils.
Anyone have any suggestions or is that a carrier and or EAA question?
I would doubt the leesor would have any coverage beyond structure to protect
its assets.
So how would I protect mine. Allstate says if its content it could be
covered under my homeowners policy but that would be more content and pay
only for base materials since its not an airplane yet
When it becomes an airplane it would have a policy similar to an auto or
motor vehicle policy.
As a project its neither an airplane nor a pile of lumber.
I am interested to learn the legal aspects of it and anyone elses experience
in this area.
Not wanting to admit it but I am perplexed and concerned about other
remnants in my row
Please advise
John
Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless
Message 3
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Jim
You may want to order them from B & B you can speak to them and the will
help with your application selection. They are if not already preping for
Oshkosh so call soon. Great folks to work with helpful and priced much
better than others
John
Happy independance day celebrating by building my Piet no better way to
honor those that bought and paid for our freedom
Please archive
Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless
-----Original message-----
From: jim <quinnj@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Mon, Jul 4, 2011 00:50:13 GMT+00:00
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles
I'm looking to order the turnbuckles for the aileron and tail brace wires.
Got very confused looking at the AC catalog offerings. Help! What do I need
to order?
Thanks,
Jim
Message 4
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John,
Your homeowners insurance excludes aircraft and aircraft parts. You need
to contact the EAA insurance program.They have coverage available for
projects in progress. I believe a few other companies also offer this
coverage.
Perry Rhoads
Piet N12939
----- Original Message -----
From: amsafetyc@aol.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 8:19 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Insurance
Since moving into the hangar I contacted my Allstate insurance agent
to find out about coverage for my almost an airplane. I wasn certain if
it woul be considered an airplane or content. They were going to
contact home office and get back to me,still waiting.....
So the question in my mind is at what point does it become an
airplane? Like everyone else I too am highly protective of my thousands
of hours of work and up to date accomplishments and would like to bind
appropriate coverage for all non act of God perils.
Anyone have any suggestions or is that a carrier and or EAA question?
I would doubt the leesor would have any coverage beyond structure to
protect its assets.
So how would I protect mine. Allstate says if its content it could be
covered under my homeowners policy but that would be more content and
pay only for base materials since its not an airplane yet
When it becomes an airplane it would have a policy similar to an auto
or motor vehicle policy.
As a project its neither an airplane nor a pile of lumber.
I am interested to learn the legal aspects of it and anyone elses
experience in this area.
Not wanting to admit it but I am perplexed and concerned about other
remnants in my row
Please advise
John
Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless
=B7>~?=ED=B2,=DE=03g(-S=D3M=D3Gq=A2z=C1=AE
Message 5
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Start by selecting the cable you will use, then select the appropriate
components. It helps to draw it out on paper.
Attached are a couple of pdf's to get you going.
Greg Cardinal
Pursuing liberty and happiness this afternoon by going flying.....
----- Original Message -----
From: jim
To: Piet list
Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 7:38 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles
I'm looking to order the turnbuckles for the aileron and tail brace
wires. Got very confused looking at the AC catalog offerings. Help! What
do I need to order?
Thanks,
Jim
Message 6
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Yes! I bought my turnbuckles from B & B for $7.50 each -- about 1/4th
what AS charges. In case you don't have it, their address is: B & B
Aircraft Supplies, PO Box 37, 202 South Center, Gardner, KS 66030, phone
(913) 884-5930, fax (913) 884-6533. Hope that helps. Don't know if
they have turnbuckles right now, but you can certainly not go wrong by
checking. Good Fortune (I don't believe in Luck). Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: amsafetyc@aol.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles
Jim
You may want to order them from B & B you can speak to them and the
will help with your application selection. They are if not already
preping for Oshkosh so call soon. Great folks to work with helpful and
priced much better than others
John
Happy independance day celebrating by building my Piet no better way
to honor those that bought and paid for our freedom
Please archive
Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless
-----Original message-----
From: jim <quinnj@sbcglobal.net>
To: Piet list <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Mon, Jul 4, 2011 00:50:13 GMT+00:00
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles
I'm looking to order the turnbuckles for the aileron and tail brace
wires. Got very confused looking at the AC catalog offerings. Help! What
do I need to order?
Thanks,
Jim
~=B2=03
Message 7
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Just for reference. I have a 1948 V tail bonanza. It is currently being hangered/stored
in a flight school hanger. They requested that I have insurance. I was
able to get it insured for hull and all for $1000 per year. That is whether
or not it is flying or in the hanger. (it was only $50 less for non flying insurance.)
That is about as cheap as my auto insurance for my 4 cars. Having said that If
I rolled my old plane up in a ball it is worth about $20,000 in today's depressed
market. At one point it was worth just under $60,000.
"Vintage" airplanes have recovered even less than the regular airplane market.
Blue Skies,
Steve
PS Today a group of Cessna pilots will do a "low level" fly around Enid, OK. Clyde
Cessna was an Overland car salesman in Enid and built his first plane here.
He learned to fly and tested his plane NW of here at the Great Salt Planes.
Taking off and crashing 12 times before having a successful flight on his 13th
try. He was going to fly this plane at it's first public exhibition in Enid on
4 July 100 years ago. But he did not have the plane ready as fast as he thought
he would (sound familiar? )
The flight of Cessnas will include a 140, 150, 152, 172, 177, 182 and a 337.
----- Original Message -----
From: "amsafetyc@aol.com" <amsafetyc@aol.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Insurance
> Since moving into the hangar I contacted my Allstate insurance
> agent to find
> out about coverage for my almost an airplane. I wasn certain if it
> woul be
> considered an airplane or content. They were going to contact home
> office
> and get back to me,still waiting.....
>
> So the question in my mind is at what point does it become an
> airplane? Like
> everyone else I too am highly protective of my thousands of hours
> of work
> and up to date accomplishments and would like to bind appropriate
> coverage
> for all non act of God perils.
>
> Anyone have any suggestions or is that a carrier and or EAA question?
>
> I would doubt the leesor would have any coverage beyond structure
> to protect
> its assets.
>
> So how would I protect mine. Allstate says if its content it could
> be
> covered under my homeowners policy but that would be more content
> and pay
> only for base materials since its not an airplane yet
>
> When it becomes an airplane it would have a policy similar to an
> auto or
> motor vehicle policy.
>
> As a project its neither an airplane nor a pile of lumber.
>
> I am interested to learn the legal aspects of it and anyone elses
> experience
> in this area.
>
> Not wanting to admit it but I am perplexed and concerned about
> other
> remnants in my row
>
> Please advise
>
> John
>
> Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless
>
Message 8
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We never carried hull on any airplane we've owned. My dad didn't either.
When you put an airplane on floats your rates go sky high. About 6% of hul
l value or more. 50yrs of flying and 1 accident with substantial damage (v
ery substantial) I think we're ahead of the game=2C but that's just my opi
nion. Most are not comfortable with it. Don't carry collision on my cars
either. But=2C they're not worth much--lol
Doug Dever
In beautiful Stow Ohio
Message 9
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Once I bought my engine (Rotec radial) I wanted to have coverage.- so my project
is covered by Avemco for about $350 a year. It's worth a dollar a day to me.
I am covered for $35,000 which may sound insane for a Pietenpol but the engine
is about $18,000 of that and I've paid to have all my welding done professinly.
I do not want to come home to a burned down condo but at least if I do my
three years of work and $$ would be covered....... IMHO
--------
Jake Schultz - curator,
Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=344908#344908
Message 10
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That should say professionally....! [Embarassed]
--------
Jake Schultz - curator,
Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=344909#344909
Message 11
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Does anyone get aircraft insurance just for the hull of it?
heh, heh... heh.
BC
do NOT archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=344910#344910
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: high altitude Piet |
Douwe,
There are a number of Piets flying here in Colorado. Altitude and
density altitude are concerns no matter the airplane. At the moment,
the density altitude at our home field (KLMO) is 8200. Except in
winter, you probably would be flying a one-place airplane. In our
Pacer, we probably spend more time fiddling with the red knob than the
black one. Mixture control is crucial. Of course, in winter, you'd
have to consider the weight of the snowmobile suit you'd probably be
wearing.
The other concern would be the route to get your Piet into the South
Park basin. The mountains ringing it are pretty high. I suppose you
could follow the Arkansas River into and out of the area (for example,
on annual pilgrimages to Brodhead) but sections of that are awfully
rugged with few places to put an airplane safely down in a pinch.
Otherwise you might need to fly north through Wyoming to get access to
the rest of country. There, the fuel stops are pretty widely spaced.
Still, you couldn't ask for a prettier or more majestic place to fly.
Cheers, Ken
On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 6:26 PM, mark lee <mlmarkelee7@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's a long way to anything lower from there.If you can deal with the
> altitude it's a great area.
>
> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 3:28 PM, Douwe Blumberg <douweblumberg@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> Hey all,
>>
>>
>>
>> Not sure if itll ever happen, but a move to the high country of Colorado
>> MIGHT take place one year in the future. The closest airports are Buena
>> Vista at 7900 feet and Salida at 7400 feet elevation. (8000ft and 7000ft
>> long respectively!)
>>
>>
>>
>> My piet has standard wings, but a new C-90 turning a Cloud Car prop. The
>> approaches to both these fields open as theyre in the middle of the same
>> valley.
>>
>>
>>
>> Do you think Id be okay?
>>
>>
>>
>> I remember Mountain Piet was based out of Buena Vista, and with his
>> reduced Subaru, he did fine while it flew, though it was turbocharged.
>>
>>
>>
>> Im sure I could find lower fields, but they start getting farther and
>> farther away, which makes things less enjoyable and convenient.
>>
>>
>>
>> Douwe
>>
>> " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>
>
Message 13
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Chuck, Thanks a ton. Will definitely call them!!!
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: Charles Campbell
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles
Yes! I bought my turnbuckles from B & B for $7.50 each -- about 1/4th
what AS charges. In case you don't have it, their address is: B & B
Aircraft Supplies, PO Box 37, 202 South Center, Gardner, KS 66030, phone
(913) 884-5930, fax (913) 884-6533. Hope that helps. Don't know if
they have turnbuckles right now, but you can certainly not go wrong by
checking. Good Fortune (I don't believe in Luck). Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: amsafetyc@aol.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles
Jim
You may want to order them from B & B you can speak to them and the
will help with your application selection. They are if not already
preping for Oshkosh so call soon. Great folks to work with helpful and
priced much better than others
John
Happy independance day celebrating by building my Piet no better way
to honor those that bought and paid for our freedom
Please archive
Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless
-----Original message-----
From: jim <quinnj@sbcglobal.net>
To: Piet list <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Mon, Jul 4, 2011 00:50:13 GMT+00:00
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles
I'm looking to order the turnbuckles for the aileron and tail
brace wires. Got very confused looking at the AC catalog offerings.
Help! What do I need to order?
Thanks,
Jim
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
~=B2=03
Message 14
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Greg,
Thanks a lot, the drawings were extremely helpful!!!!
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: Greg Cardinal
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles
Start by selecting the cable you will use, then select the appropriate
components. It helps to draw it out on paper.
Attached are a couple of pdf's to get you going.
Greg Cardinal
Pursuing liberty and happiness this afternoon by going flying.....
----- Original Message -----
From: jim
To: Piet list
Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 7:38 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles
I'm looking to order the turnbuckles for the aileron and tail brace
wires. Got very confused looking at the AC catalog offerings. Help! What
do I need to order?
Thanks,
Jim
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 15
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Thanks John, you and two others suggested B7B. I'll definately call
them.
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: amsafetyc@aol.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles
Jim
You may want to order them from B & B you can speak to them and the
will help with your application selection. They are if not already
preping for Oshkosh so call soon. Great folks to work with helpful and
priced much better than others
John
Happy independance day celebrating by building my Piet no better way
to honor those that bought and paid for our freedom
Please archive
Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless
-----Original message-----
From: jim <quinnj@sbcglobal.net>
To: Piet list <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Mon, Jul 4, 2011 00:50:13 GMT+00:00
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles
I'm looking to order the turnbuckles for the aileron and tail brace
wires. Got very confused looking at the AC catalog offerings. Help! What
do I need to order?
Thanks,
Jim
~=B2=03
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: High altitude piet |
Mark,
When we lived in Indiana, I didn't give a second thought to density
altitude and terrain. Now I do. My thinking has evolved as a result
of living in Colorado.
One, building light. This has become my mantra. To be sure, some
things were too late to change. I built the fuselage before we moved
to CO. So I have birch plywood instead of mahogany on the fuselage.
Now, however, I've become a subscriber to the old saw that, if you are
thinking about adding something to your airplane, throw it up in the
air. If it comes back down, it is too heavy. I even went with 1"
routed spars, which by my calculations end up lighter than 3/4"
unrouted spars. This is because the 1" routed spars are essentially
the same weight as the 3/4" spar, but with the latter you have to add
1/8" plywood plates wherever fittings are going to be attached.
Two, I am extending my wings by 1 1/2 feet, so my wingspan will be 30'
6", rather than 29'. At first glance not much, but by increasing the
span by almost 9% the added span helps offset the thinner air we have
here.
Third, I've opted for a center section flop rather than a cutout. My
reading on the subject suggests that a cutout reduces lift by a
non-trivial amount, as the cutout interrupts the wing span almost like
a wing tip does.
Fourth, I'm opting for a Corvair. Others (e.g. Dangerous Dave) have
opted for the O-235. Added horsepower makes sense. But the O-235 is
heavier than the Corvair. And the Corvair, properly built, should
generate close to 100 hp (sea level), which is still in the range of
75 or 80 hp here, depending on density altitude.
With these things in mind, I don't think there is any reason why I
can't have loads of fun with my Piet, including taking it into the
back country from time to time. Getting over the passes will always
be a challenge. From the north, the lowest pass into South Pass is at
Leadville -- and that isn't low. Just a few miles away, for us, is
Rollins Pass. For that one, you need to climb to about 12,500. If
conditions are nice, that should be doable, though I think having
emergency supplies, a cell phone, and a credit card on board would
still be advisable.
Cheers, Ken
On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 6:18 PM, mark lee <mlmarkelee7@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes I like that area.I am considering moving there.I like the milder winters
> and lower elevation.Of course Silverton is a bit lower than Leadville but
> those long winters get old after awhile.There hasn't been a runway in
> Silverton for many years anyway.I've hit thermals and turbulence that might
> break a piet there.So at times like mid afternoon at summers peak are to be
> avoided.Yes it's cold I've had my water bottle freeze at 14500 in July.So I
> know you aren't kidding very much about the snowmobile suit.I was thinking
> of a big corvair that could sneak over the ranges early in the morning
> before it gets hot and rough.With the right engine set up with lean control,
> gauges,prop,back flow fuel lines etc it seems possible.Do you see any big
> holes in my thinking? This is the time to find any that are there.I don't
> want a high performance fast plane,Only to be able to go high now and then.A
> friend in Ouray has a Bell 47-G and he does it--very carefully.
>
Message 17
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I agree. I've owned 3 airplanes plus the Piet now under construction
and I've never carried hull insurance either. I think liability
insurance is mandatory, but not hull.
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug Dever
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 3:10 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Insurance
We never carried hull on any airplane we've owned. My dad didn't
either. When you put an airplane on floats your rates go sky high.
About 6% of hull value or more. 50yrs of flying and 1 accident with
substantial damage (very substantial) I think we're ahead of the game,
but that's just my opinion. Most are not comfortable with it. Don't
carry collision on my cars either. But, they're not worth much--lol
Doug Dever
In beautiful Stow Ohio
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: High altitude piet |
If the math works for lengthening the wing it sounds great.Now keep in mind
that I'm an old hang glider pilot used to much lighter wing loading and
lower stall speeds.At a higher altitude field, the air can get downright
squirrely close to the ground.Not only that but ground effect and wind
lamination always seems to be worse. Throw in some thermal induced
turbulence or even a healthy thermal breaking free and ouch.So what is a
lengthened wing going to do to the roll rate and control-ability? When I try
to visualize the wing structure and strength my mind goes tink and the
lights go out.I can see what you are after and that much makes a lot of
sense to me.I'm just not smart enough to be able to understand all the
structural and handling effects that might happen.Would the control surfaces
and braces need to be moved out a bit?I wonder if it has been done before on
a piets wing?
On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 6:08 PM, Ken Bickers <bickers.ken@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> When we lived in Indiana, I didn't give a second thought to density
> altitude and terrain. Now I do. My thinking has evolved as a result
> of living in Colorado.
>
> One, building light. This has become my mantra. To be sure, some
> things were too late to change. I built the fuselage before we moved
> to CO. So I have birch plywood instead of mahogany on the fuselage.
> Now, however, I've become a subscriber to the old saw that, if you are
> thinking about adding something to your airplane, throw it up in the
> air. If it comes back down, it is too heavy. I even went with 1"
> routed spars, which by my calculations end up lighter than 3/4"
> unrouted spars. This is because the 1" routed spars are essentially
> the same weight as the 3/4" spar, but with the latter you have to add
> 1/8" plywood plates wherever fittings are going to be attached.
>
> Two, I am extending my wings by 1 1/2 feet, so my wingspan will be 30'
> 6", rather than 29'. At first glance not much, but by increasing the
> span by almost 9% the added span helps offset the thinner air we have
> here.
>
> Third, I've opted for a center section flop rather than a cutout. My
> reading on the subject suggests that a cutout reduces lift by a
> non-trivial amount, as the cutout interrupts the wing span almost like
> a wing tip does.
>
> Fourth, I'm opting for a Corvair. Others (e.g. Dangerous Dave) have
> opted for the O-235. Added horsepower makes sense. But the O-235 is
> heavier than the Corvair. And the Corvair, properly built, should
> generate close to 100 hp (sea level), which is still in the range of
> 75 or 80 hp here, depending on density altitude.
>
> With these things in mind, I don't think there is any reason why I
> can't have loads of fun with my Piet, including taking it into the
> back country from time to time. Getting over the passes will always
> be a challenge. From the north, the lowest pass into South Pass is at
> Leadville -- and that isn't low. Just a few miles away, for us, is
> Rollins Pass. For that one, you need to climb to about 12,500. If
> conditions are nice, that should be doable, though I think having
> emergency supplies, a cell phone, and a credit card on board would
> still be advisable.
>
> Cheers, Ken
>
> On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 6:18 PM, mark lee <mlmarkelee7@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Yes I like that area.I am considering moving there.I like the milder
> winters
> > and lower elevation.Of course Silverton is a bit lower than Leadville but
> > those long winters get old after awhile.There hasn't been a runway in
> > Silverton for many years anyway.I've hit thermals and turbulence that
> might
> > break a piet there.So at times like mid afternoon at summers peak are to
> be
> > avoided.Yes it's cold I've had my water bottle freeze at 14500 in July.So
> I
> > know you aren't kidding very much about the snowmobile suit.I was
> thinking
> > of a big corvair that could sneak over the ranges early in the morning
> > before it gets hot and rough.With the right engine set up with lean
> control,
> > gauges,prop,back flow fuel lines etc it seems possible.Do you see any big
> > holes in my thinking? This is the time to find any that are there.I don't
> > want a high performance fast plane,Only to be able to go high now and
> then.A
> > friend in Ouray has a Bell 47-G and he does it--very carefully.
> >
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: High altitude piet |
Lengthening the wing is a fairly common mod on the Piets. In some
cases, more than I'm doing. The roll rate on Piets, when built
strictly to plans, is not much to write home about, even under the
best of circumstances. That is why most folks add aileron seals. I'm
lengthening the wings 9" per side. I'm moving the struts out half the
increase in span, which is 4 1/2" per side. I've run the numbers,
based on the publications that Chris Tracey has on his website. The
strength of the wing is reduced, but not by very much. That, too, was
one of my considerations in going with the 1" inch routed spar.
Relative to 3/4" spars, that more than compensates for the added 4 1/2
inches outside the struts.
As for gusts and thermals -- those I haven't got numbers on or anyway
realistically to estimate. I guess that will be one of the things
that I'll learn about once the bird is flying.
On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 8:13 PM, mark lee <mlmarkelee7@gmail.com> wrote:
> If the math works for lengthening the wing it sounds great.Now keep in mind
> that I'm an old hang glider pilot used to much lighter wing loading and
> lower stall speeds.At a higher altitude field, the air can get downright
> squirrely close to the ground.Not only that but ground effect and wind
> lamination always seems to be worse. Throw in some thermal induced
> turbulence or even a healthy thermal breaking free and ouch.So what is a
> lengthened wing going to do to the roll rate and control-ability? When I try
> to visualize the wing structure and strength my mind goes tink and the
> lights go out.I can see what you are after and that much makes a lot of
> sense to me.I'm just not smart enough to be able to understand all the
> structural and handling effects that might happen.Would the control surfaces
> and braces need to be moved out a bit?I wonder if it has been done before on
> a piets wing?
>
> On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 6:08 PM, Ken Bickers <bickers.ken@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Mark,
>>
>> When we lived in Indiana, I didn't give a second thought to density
>> altitude and terrain. Now I do. My thinking has evolved as a result
>> of living in Colorado.
>>
>> One, building light. This has become my mantra. To be sure, some
>> things were too late to change. I built the fuselage before we moved
>> to CO. So I have birch plywood instead of mahogany on the fuselage.
>> Now, however, I've become a subscriber to the old saw that, if you are
>> thinking about adding something to your airplane, throw it up in the
>> air. If it comes back down, it is too heavy. I even went with 1"
>> routed spars, which by my calculations end up lighter than 3/4"
>> unrouted spars. This is because the 1" routed spars are essentially
>> the same weight as the 3/4" spar, but with the latter you have to add
>> 1/8" plywood plates wherever fittings are going to be attached.
>>
>> Two, I am extending my wings by 1 1/2 feet, so my wingspan will be 30'
>> 6", rather than 29'. At first glance not much, but by increasing the
>> span by almost 9% the added span helps offset the thinner air we have
>> here.
>>
>> Third, I've opted for a center section flop rather than a cutout. My
>> reading on the subject suggests that a cutout reduces lift by a
>> non-trivial amount, as the cutout interrupts the wing span almost like
>> a wing tip does.
>>
>> Fourth, I'm opting for a Corvair. Others (e.g. Dangerous Dave) have
>> opted for the O-235. Added horsepower makes sense. But the O-235 is
>> heavier than the Corvair. And the Corvair, properly built, should
>> generate close to 100 hp (sea level), which is still in the range of
>> 75 or 80 hp here, depending on density altitude.
>>
>> With these things in mind, I don't think there is any reason why I
>> can't have loads of fun with my Piet, including taking it into the
>> back country from time to time. Getting over the passes will always
>> be a challenge. From the north, the lowest pass into South Pass is at
>> Leadville -- and that isn't low. Just a few miles away, for us, is
>> Rollins Pass. For that one, you need to climb to about 12,500. If
>> conditions are nice, that should be doable, though I think having
>> emergency supplies, a cell phone, and a credit card on board would
>> still be advisable.
>>
>> Cheers, Ken
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 6:18 PM, mark lee <mlmarkelee7@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Yes I like that area.I am considering moving there.I like the milder
>> > winters
>> > and lower elevation.Of course Silverton is a bit lower than Leadville
>> > but
>> > those long winters get old after awhile.There hasn't been a runway in
>> > Silverton for many years anyway.I've hit thermals and turbulence that
>> > might
>> > break a piet there.So at times like mid afternoon at summers peak are to
>> > be
>> > avoided.Yes it's cold I've had my water bottle freeze at 14500 in
>> > July.So I
>> > know you aren't kidding very much about the snowmobile suit.I was
>> > thinking
>> > of a big corvair that could sneak over the ranges early in the morning
>> > before it gets hot and rough.With the right engine set up with lean
>> > control,
>> > gauges,prop,back flow fuel lines etc it seems possible.Do you see any
>> > big
>> > holes in my thinking? This is the time to find any that are there.I
>> > don't
>> > want a high performance fast plane,Only to be able to go high now and
>> > then.A
>> > friend in Ouray has a Bell 47-G and he does it--very carefully.
>> >
>>
>> ==========
>> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>> ==========
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> le, List Admin.
>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 20
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At the beginning of this year I started a new job as a loss control consultant
for an insurance agency. I handle safety and compliance for our larger commercial
accounts. I'm pretty far from the agent side, but our agents do write policies
for aircraft. In fact they write my airplanes. They write any airplane
all the way back to 1903. There is no required level of insurance to carry,
not even liability. Unless a specific locale might require it. Non-movement
hull insurance can be purchased for a "not finished" homebuilt. The premium
really isn't too bad and you either purchase an "agreed value" or you can purchase
an amount that is equivalent to your receipts as long as a total loss would
not exceed a set amount. Insurance can get complicated but there are some
good policies out there and for a small investment it's not a bad idea. In addition
to having liability coverage, I know when I head out into storm country
in a couple of weeks and leave it out at night under trees, it's nice to know
I have that non-movement hull coverage that is pretty reasonably priced. "In
movement" hull coverage, however, is pretty pricey for homebuilts and can be
hard to justify.
Don Emch
NX899DE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=344925#344925
Message 21
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I usually have no insurance on my plane either, unless I am looking to fly young
eagles. However, in this case I insured it so that if for some reason there
was an accident the people kindly storing my plane would be covered.
Blue Skies,
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: Charles Campbell <cncampbell@windstream.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Insurance
> I agree. I've owned 3 airplanes plus the Piet now under
> construction and I've never carried hull insurance either. I think
> liability insurance is mandatory, but not hull.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Doug Dever
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 3:10 PM
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Insurance
>
>
> We never carried hull on any airplane we've owned. My dad didn't
> either. When you put an airplane on floats your rates go sky high.
> About 6% of hull value or more. 50yrs of flying and 1 accident
> with substantial damage (very substantial) I think we're ahead of
> the game, but that's just my opinion. Most are not comfortable
> with it. Don't carry collision on my cars either. But, they're
> not worth much--lol
>
> Doug Dever
> In beautiful Stow Ohio
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: High altitude piet |
Sounds like you are really on it.With any luck in the future I'll be able to
sell this house in Moorpark Ca and be right behind you.I've been reading up
on the corvair stuff.The 3100 sounds like the ticket.Not cheap but a lot is
going to be asked of it at times.That Mountain Piet out of Salida just sort
of fell off the map.I haven't heard anything in a long time other than it
suffered a fuel problem.He had towed sail planes at that altitude! After
over 30 years in Silverton I think I'm done with it other than
visits.Durango used to be nice and has Animas Airpark but its to big now. I
want an easier going life and a good shop to build a plane etc.The corvair
stuff written by Mark Langsford is really interesting if you haven't already
read it.He has done some neat engine work and even uses some normal pump
gas.How to get around pre-detonation and vapor lock is what drew my eye.He
has a KR2.He broke a corvair crank and really hit the books figuring out
why.
On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 7:29 PM, Ken Bickers <bickers.ken@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Lengthening the wing is a fairly common mod on the Piets. In some
> cases, more than I'm doing. The roll rate on Piets, when built
> strictly to plans, is not much to write home about, even under the
> best of circumstances. That is why most folks add aileron seals. I'm
> lengthening the wings 9" per side. I'm moving the struts out half the
> increase in span, which is 4 1/2" per side. I've run the numbers,
> based on the publications that Chris Tracey has on his website. The
> strength of the wing is reduced, but not by very much. That, too, was
> one of my considerations in going with the 1" inch routed spar.
> Relative to 3/4" spars, that more than compensates for the added 4 1/2
> inches outside the struts.
>
> As for gusts and thermals -- those I haven't got numbers on or anyway
> realistically to estimate. I guess that will be one of the things
> that I'll learn about once the bird is flying.
>
> On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 8:13 PM, mark lee <mlmarkelee7@gmail.com> wrote:
> > If the math works for lengthening the wing it sounds great.Now keep in
> mind
> > that I'm an old hang glider pilot used to much lighter wing loading and
> > lower stall speeds.At a higher altitude field, the air can get downright
> > squirrely close to the ground.Not only that but ground effect and wind
> > lamination always seems to be worse. Throw in some thermal induced
> > turbulence or even a healthy thermal breaking free and ouch.So what is a
> > lengthened wing going to do to the roll rate and control-ability? When I
> try
> > to visualize the wing structure and strength my mind goes tink and the
> > lights go out.I can see what you are after and that much makes a lot of
> > sense to me.I'm just not smart enough to be able to understand all the
> > structural and handling effects that might happen.Would the control
> surfaces
> > and braces need to be moved out a bit?I wonder if it has been done before
> on
> > a piets wing?
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 6:08 PM, Ken Bickers <bickers.ken@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> bickers.ken@gmail.com>
> >>
> >> Mark,
> >>
> >> When we lived in Indiana, I didn't give a second thought to density
> >> altitude and terrain. Now I do. My thinking has evolved as a result
> >> of living in Colorado.
> >>
> >> One, building light. This has become my mantra. To be sure, some
> >> things were too late to change. I built the fuselage before we moved
> >> to CO. So I have birch plywood instead of mahogany on the fuselage.
> >> Now, however, I've become a subscriber to the old saw that, if you are
> >> thinking about adding something to your airplane, throw it up in the
> >> air. If it comes back down, it is too heavy. I even went with 1"
> >> routed spars, which by my calculations end up lighter than 3/4"
> >> unrouted spars. This is because the 1" routed spars are essentially
> >> the same weight as the 3/4" spar, but with the latter you have to add
> >> 1/8" plywood plates wherever fittings are going to be attached.
> >>
> >> Two, I am extending my wings by 1 1/2 feet, so my wingspan will be 30'
> >> 6", rather than 29'. At first glance not much, but by increasing the
> >> span by almost 9% the added span helps offset the thinner air we have
> >> here.
> >>
> >> Third, I've opted for a center section flop rather than a cutout. My
> >> reading on the subject suggests that a cutout reduces lift by a
> >> non-trivial amount, as the cutout interrupts the wing span almost like
> >> a wing tip does.
> >>
> >> Fourth, I'm opting for a Corvair. Others (e.g. Dangerous Dave) have
> >> opted for the O-235. Added horsepower makes sense. But the O-235 is
> >> heavier than the Corvair. And the Corvair, properly built, should
> >> generate close to 100 hp (sea level), which is still in the range of
> >> 75 or 80 hp here, depending on density altitude.
> >>
> >> With these things in mind, I don't think there is any reason why I
> >> can't have loads of fun with my Piet, including taking it into the
> >> back country from time to time. Getting over the passes will always
> >> be a challenge. From the north, the lowest pass into South Pass is at
> >> Leadville -- and that isn't low. Just a few miles away, for us, is
> >> Rollins Pass. For that one, you need to climb to about 12,500. If
> >> conditions are nice, that should be doable, though I think having
> >> emergency supplies, a cell phone, and a credit card on board would
> >> still be advisable.
> >>
> >> Cheers, Ken
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 6:18 PM, mark lee <mlmarkelee7@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Yes I like that area.I am considering moving there.I like the milder
> >> > winters
> >> > and lower elevation.Of course Silverton is a bit lower than Leadville
> >> > but
> >> > those long winters get old after awhile.There hasn't been a runway in
> >> > Silverton for many years anyway.I've hit thermals and turbulence that
> >> > might
> >> > break a piet there.So at times like mid afternoon at summers peak are
> to
> >> > be
> >> > avoided.Yes it's cold I've had my water bottle freeze at 14500 in
> >> > July.So I
> >> > know you aren't kidding very much about the snowmobile suit.I was
> >> > thinking
> >> > of a big corvair that could sneak over the ranges early in the morning
> >> > before it gets hot and rough.With the right engine set up with lean
> >> > control,
> >> > gauges,prop,back flow fuel lines etc it seems possible.Do you see any
> >> > big
> >> > holes in my thinking? This is the time to find any that are there.I
> >> > don't
> >> > want a high performance fast plane,Only to be able to go high now and
> >> > then.A
> >> > friend in Ouray has a Bell 47-G and he does it--very carefully.
> >> >
> >>
> >> ==========
> >> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> >> ==========
> >> http://forums.matronics.com
> >> ==========
> >> le, List Admin.
> >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> >> ==========
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 23
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My homeowners policy covers materials, tools, equipment... everything. Until it
becomes an actual airplane all of these things are considered stored items that
I will be reimbursed for in the event of a loss. Gotta love USAA... if you
are eligible I would recommend them.
--------
Mark Chouinard
Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=344934#344934
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