---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 08/05/11: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:03 AM - Re: Fuel Tank (helspersew@aol.com) 2. 08:35 AM - What it was like at Brodhead this year.... (Jim Markle) 3. 09:06 AM - Re: alternative construction materials (Wayne Bressler) 4. 09:15 AM - Re: What it was like at Brodhead this year.... (Gary Boothe) 5. 09:36 AM - Re: alternative construction materials (Billy McCaskill) 6. 10:56 AM - Widen fuselage by 2 inches (FlyBoy57) 7. 11:45 AM - Re: Widen fuselage by 2 inches (Jack Phillips) 8. 12:52 PM - Re: Widen fuselage by 2 inches (Charles Campbell) 9. 01:21 PM - Re: Widen fuselage by 2 inches (airlion) 10. 01:29 PM - Re: Widen fuselage by 2 inches (airlion) 11. 04:15 PM - Re: What it was like at Brodhead this year.... (IT Girl) 12. 05:20 PM - Re: Widen fuselage by 2 inches (Graham Hansen) 13. 05:46 PM - Re: What it was like at Brodhead this year.... (K5YAC) 14. 06:09 PM - Re: What it was like at Brodhead this year.... (Jerry Dotson) 15. 06:19 PM - Re: Widen fuselage by 2 inches (FlyBoy57) 16. 06:26 PM - Re: 1911 pusher, and piet (Baldeagle) 17. 06:41 PM - DVD copies of videos and rib stitching.... (Jim Markle) 18. 06:41 PM - Re: Wil Graff (Baldeagle) 19. 07:51 PM - Re: brake cables (skellytown flyer) 20. 07:53 PM - Re: Fuel Tank (carson) 21. 11:07 PM - Re: Widen fuselage by 2 inches (AMsafetyC@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:03:15 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuel Tank From: helspersew@aol.com Hi Carson, I used .050 for the tank. That thickness is good, but I have had some weld breakage problems because of my lousy design. The edges next to the welds s hould be stiffened by putting a "trough" with a roller along side the weld edge. Better to look and follow Bingelis books and look at existing fuel ta nks out there. If mine gives me any more problems I will start completely o ver again. My front engine cowl is .030, 3003 alloy. This is soft enough to form bump- outs around bolt heads, and installing louvers and such. The sections that formed the "pit" areas I used .030 , 2024 alloy for stiffness. Dan Helsper Puryear, TN -----Original Message----- From: carson Sent: Thu, Aug 4, 2011 7:10 pm Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel Tank Hi Guys ust about to order some aluminum for my wing tank I have been through the rchives and see most people are using 5052 is there a reason to use 5052 ra ther han 6061? lso thickness 0.040 or 0.050 seem to be the thickness used has anyone found his to be to thin? nd while I am at it what grade and thickness have people used for there coc kpit oaming ? hanks arson ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348650#348650 -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:30 AM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: Pietenpol-List: What it was like at Brodhead this year.... Heaven of course! Here's a bit more video I just added. And some REALLY exciting video of the ground as I walked around with the darn camera recording....oops. http://youtu.be/_c1OG7WcWdY Jim in Pryor (well, LA right now...but on my way back to Pryor) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:06:25 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: alternative construction materials From: Wayne Bressler Tom, I would recommend hiring an engineer to do the necessary calculations on any significant modifications such as you're proposing. I don't know if anybody has done it before, buy I'm certain it could be done . I have to echo Jack's question of, "why?". The Pietenpol has proven itself time and again. The only reason to modify i s builder's preference. I think you will find, with little effort, that the large majority of modified homebuilts are never completed. Every change af fects something else, and these changes snowball into a giant mess, overwhel ming the builder, and completely diminishing any value in the airframe. If you want to build a flying airplane, stick to the plans. You'll be happi er in the end, and will have something that you can eventually sell for a fa ir price in good conscience. Then again, it's your airplane. Do whatever you'd like. :) Wayne Bressler Taildraggers, Inc. www.taildraggersinc.com On Aug 2, 2011, at 8:02 AM, "Jack Phillips" wrote: > All I can say is =9CWhy?=9D > > If you want a steel tube airplane, build one. If you want an aluminum air plane, build one. > > If you want a Pietenpol, build it as close to the plans as possible and yo u will have a good flying airplane. > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-li st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of letchik.ivan@gmail.com > Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 11:01 AM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: alternative construction materials > > > I was wondering if anyone has built a Pietenpol Air Camper or Sky Scout wi th materials other than wood or less wood? I know that the Pietenpol was de signed to make use of wood in its construction. There is also a supplementa l plan drawn by Bernard Pietenpol which uses metal tubing to construct the f uselage. > > Has anyone built a Pietenpol using more metal than the original plans call ed for? For example using light metal tubing for the tail and stabilizer se ction, or perhaps aircraft grade aluminum for the wing ribs or spar, or mayb e sheet aluminum on the leading edge of the wing or in place of plywood on t he fuselage, or any other combination. Would the aircraft weigh more if con structed in the way I just described? Could a more powerful engine overcome the added weight of having used heavier construction materials? I know the L4 / J3 Piper Cub is built with all metal structural components covered wit h cloth skin and is powered by a 65 hp Continental engine, so I am wondering if similar construction technique could be used on a Pietenpol? > > Tom > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:15:12 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: What it was like at Brodhead this year.... Nice, Jim! Interesting things happen on the insect level.... Gary do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Jim Markle Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 8:32 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: What it was like at Brodhead this year.... Heaven of course! Here's a bit more video I just added. And some REALLY exciting video of the ground as I walked around with the darn camera recording....oops. http://youtu.be/_c1OG7WcWdY Jim in Pryor (well, LA right now...but on my way back to Pryor) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:36:04 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: alternative construction materials From: "Billy McCaskill" If you are intent on using these alternative construction materials to build an airplane, perhaps you should consider an alternative airplane design to the Pietenpol. The Piet was designed to be built using materials that were readily available and with a minimum of effort, and with a skill set that almost everyone could master easily. The Piet still fits within those design parameters, and there's no need to go changing the material list or construction methods to produce a high quality airplane with great flying qualities. Adding weight and complexity to an airplane rarely adds to the performance of an existing, proven design. Go to the Brodhead Piet fly-in some year and check out what shows up at the field... you won't find a lot of aluminum spars, ribs or leading edges on the planes there. You won't find a lot of extra metal that adds a lot of extra weight that requires larger engines with more horsepower. The idea is to keep it simple, keep it light, keep to the plans as much as possible and wind up with a great little airplane that you'll be very happy with. -------- Billy McCaskill Urbana, IL tail section almost done, starting on ribs soon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348679#348679 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:56:49 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Widen fuselage by 2 inches From: "FlyBoy57" I looked at a project today and I like the workmanship. The fuselage is built and covered. My only concern is that the builder widened the fuselage by 2 inches. Anyone have any thoughts on what this means for me down the line? What other modifications and changes do I have to consider because of the wider fuselage? Thanks a bunch. Blue skies and warm tailwinds, Donato Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348683#348683 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:45:41 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Widen fuselage by 2 inches Donato, A wider fuselage is not the end of the world. It just means the plane will be heavier (and more expensive) than normal. You will also need to take the extra width into account when mounting the cabane struts to the centersection. You might want to make the turtledeck and cowlings a bit taller to keep the fuselage proportions the same. Mine is 1" wider than plans and as I've stated before, if I had it to do over again, I would make it to plans. But if everything else looks good on the project I would not reject it for its Wide Body aspects. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FlyBoy57 Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 1:53 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Widen fuselage by 2 inches I looked at a project today and I like the workmanship. The fuselage is built and covered. My only concern is that the builder widened the fuselage by 2 inches. Anyone have any thoughts on what this means for me down the line? What other modifications and changes do I have to consider because of the wider fuselage? Thanks a bunch. Blue skies and warm tailwinds, Donato Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348683#348683 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:52:09 PM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Widen fuselage by 2 inches I can't really see anything wrong with widening the fuse by 2 inches as long as he widened the wing center section the same amount. The cabane attachment metal pieces need to line up -- vertically. C ----- Original Message ----- From: "FlyBoy57" Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 1:53 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Widen fuselage by 2 inches > > I looked at a project today and I like the workmanship. The fuselage is > built and covered. My only concern is that the builder widened the > fuselage by 2 inches. Anyone have any thoughts on what this means for me > down the line? What other modifications and changes do I have to consider > because of the wider fuselage? Thanks a bunch. > > Blue skies and warm tailwinds, > Donato > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348683#348683 > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:21:26 PM PST US From: airlion Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Widen fuselage by 2 inches I widened my fuse 2 in. and it sure is a lot more comfy. The changes have already been done so just put it together and fly. Gardiner ----- Original Message ---- From: FlyBoy57 Sent: Fri, August 5, 2011 1:53:18 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Widen fuselage by 2 inches I looked at a project today and I like the workmanship. The fuselage is built and covered. My only concern is that the builder widened the fuselage by 2 inches. Anyone have any thoughts on what this means for me down the line? What other modifications and changes do I have to consider because of the wider fuselage? Thanks a bunch. Blue skies and warm tailwinds, Donato Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348683#348683 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:29:27 PM PST US From: airlion Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Widen fuselage by 2 inches I ALSO MADE MY CENTER SECTION 36 INCHES which gave me 20 gallons overhead for my corvair. Weight is 757lbs. Gardiner ----- Original Message ---- From: Charles Campbell Sent: Fri, August 5, 2011 3:49:14 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Widen fuselage by 2 inches I can't really see anything wrong with widening the fuse by 2 inches as long as he widened the wing center section the same amount. The cabane attachment metal pieces need to line up -- vertically. C ----- Original Message ----- From: "FlyBoy57" Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 1:53 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Widen fuselage by 2 inches > > I looked at a project today and I like the workmanship. The fuselage is > built and covered. My only concern is that the builder widened the > fuselage by 2 inches. Anyone have any thoughts on what this means for me > down the line? What other modifications and changes do I have to consider > because of the wider fuselage? Thanks a bunch. > > Blue skies and warm tailwinds, > Donato > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348683#348683 > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:15:45 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: What it was like at Brodhead this year.... From: "IT Girl" Awesome. Thanks for sharing Jim -------- Shelley Tumino IT Girl wife of "Axel" NX899KP DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348695#348695 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:20:32 PM PST US From: "Graham Hansen" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Widen fuselage by 2 inches Donato, Do not reject that project because of the 2 inch wider fuselage! My Piet has been flying for over forty years with its fuselage widened by that amount and did not turn out to be particularly heavy at 630 lb empty.(with a C85-8 and a wooden propeller). I have flown a couple of standard-width Pietenpols which were a bit "cosy" with extra clothing we need most of the year here in central Alberta, Canada. I widened the center section by two inches to match the fuselage, but changed little else. A friend built his Piet using my jigs and his a/c has been flying since 1975. Its present owner is somewhat "heavy set" and appreciates the extra cockpit width. In my opinion, two additional inches is optimal and I would not widen it more than that. If I were to build another Pietenpol, it would have the same fuselage width as old CF-AUN (which I had planned to fly this evening until thunderstorms showed up). Graham Hansen ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:46:10 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: What it was like at Brodhead this year.... From: "K5YAC" You had to get me on tape saying, "wimmins be thinkin too much", right? LOL! That Burgundy Hatz at 15:30 is from Collinsville, OK. Thanks for sharing the vid. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348703#348703 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:49 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: What it was like at Brodhead this year.... From: "Jerry Dotson" Very good Jim come on down to humid, muggy Florida and help me cover. You can do the rib stitching. Just getting my feet wet on the control surfaces now. Seeing all those Piets flying lights a fire to get her done. -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 wing, tailfeathers done, fuselage rolling using Lycoming O-235 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348708#348708 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:19:51 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Widen fuselage by 2 inches From: "FlyBoy57" Thank you everyone for your responses. I really like this project and it will move me light years ahead in the build process. I am going back Monday to "make a deal" I hope. The workmanship looks great, this guy is an A&P/IA and restores classic airplanes. He was working on rebuilding the wooded wings on a Beech Stagger Wing when I visited him today. Thanks again. Blue skies & warm tailwinds, Donato Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348709#348709 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:26:09 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: 1911 pusher, and piet From: "Baldeagle" The Curtiss made it home to Virginia on Tuesday, we have about 100 hours on it now. Since last November it's been from its home in New Market, VA, to Norfolk, VA, to New York City, then to Oshkosh and back, with many stops along the way. Here's a shot of it at 4,000 feet over SW Pennsylvania on Tuesday morning: Unfortunately I only had a cell phone camera in the Taylorcraft, but a neat shot anyway. Also, a note about the engine, don't be confused by measuring an engine by horsepower, the C-125 actually puts out about the same foot-pounds of torque as the original Curtiss engine, which was a 402 cubic inch V-8. So the thrust, and performance of the airplane, are very close to the original. Remember, a Curtiss Jenny weighs 1,920 lbs. gross and is powered by a 90 hp OX-5 (504 cubic inches), a C-90 probably wouldn't even get a Jenny off the ground. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348712#348712 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:41:55 PM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: Pietenpol-List: DVD copies of videos and rib stitching.... wow, rib stitching? I would LOVE to! I'll possibly be in Clearwater FL in a few weeks so the idea got me all excited....but the 450 mile drive to Baker might be a bit much.....darn it. I love looking at those videos and it's a real pleasure sharing them. Even though my camcorder doesn't have much in the way of stabilizing/movement control. Oh well. And if anyone is interested in having a bit over an hour of videos I took this year, send me an S.A.S.E and I'll send you a DVD. I have a bunch of spare DVD's and would be more than glad to share them. Here's hoping the temp drops below 110 this weekend...I'm in the mood to do some varnishing! Jim in....LAX.... -----Original Message----- >From: Jerry Dotson >Sent: Aug 5, 2011 6:07 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: What it was like at Brodhead this year.... > > >Very good Jim come on down to humid, muggy Florida and help me cover. You can do the rib stitching. Just getting my feet wet on the control surfaces now. Seeing all those Piets flying lights a fire to get her done. > >-------- >Jerry Dotson >59 Daniel Johnson Rd >Baker, FL 32531 > >Started building NX510JD July, 2009 >wing, tailfeathers done, fuselage rolling >using Lycoming O-235 > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348708#348708 > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:41:55 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wil Graff From: "Baldeagle" The new home for Will's Piet: http://www.eaglesmereairmuseum.org/ Will and Frank Pavliga and I flew a lot of miles together - Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348716#348716 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:19 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: brake cables From: "skellytown flyer" it's probably overkill but I had to replace a Harley clutch cable once on the road. I got a generic cable from a shop in Denver and it was really heavy duty- nice outer housing and good smooth operation. if the lengths could be found at a motorcycle shop you need it might be an option-could likely find that type part searching online Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348722#348722 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:36 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuel Tank From: "carson" Thanks for the replies I ended up getting a sheet of 5052 locally .063 as that was the thinnest they had a little thicker but hopefully a bit easier to weld. I cant seem to find anything in the Bingelis book about welding aluminum fuel tanks. I will spend the weekend reading from cover to cover to find it Carson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348723#348723 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:07:43 PM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Widen fuselage by 2 inches I widened mine the same amount and with the exception of other dimensions changing as a result of it, The widening really had no impact on the longerons and the greater bend required to join the longerons at the junction of the tail post. The bad news is mine is not flying yet so I have no idea as to the impact, if any ,on its in flight handling. I will be able to wear a coat during the late fall and early winter so I am hoping to have gained some in usability along with easier entrance and exit. Along with not needing to be naked with the application of copious amounts of grease to slide comfortably into the cockpit and exit it all in the same day. without a shoe horn or other mechanical assist device. So if you are not a person challenged by lack of mass and girth the extra 2 inches has its advantages. I got it and I built it in, so I got that going for me and that's good thing. John Do not archive as this contains statements having no relevant fact or scientific proof or basis that can be remotely considered creadability within any reasonable professional certainty of a sound mind. No where in this explanation was there a shred of anything that could be considered a rational thought, for which, we are all now dumber for having read it. May God have mercy on your soul. In a message dated 8/5/2011 1:57:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, donato_m@hotmail.com writes: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "FlyBoy57" I looked at a project today and I like the workmanship. The fuselage is built and covered. My only concern is that the builder widened the fuselage by 2 inches. Anyone have any thoughts on what this means for me down the line? What other modifications and changes do I have to consider because of the wider fuselage? Thanks a bunch. Blue skies and warm tailwinds, Donato Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348683#348683 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.