---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 08/23/11: 47 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:40 AM - Re: Re: Idea about front cockpit side door (Jack) 2. 05:35 AM - Re: Trial Wing Fit (womenfly2) 3. 06:23 AM - Re: Re: Fuselage pass through sealing (TOM STINEMETZE) 4. 08:32 AM - Wooden Lift Struts (K5YAC) 5. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: Idea about front cockpit side door (Charles Campbell) 6. 08:55 AM - Re: Wooden Lift Struts (gboothe5@comcast.net) 7. 09:09 AM - Re: Wooden Lift Struts (K5YAC) 8. 09:31 AM - Re: Idea about front cockpit side door (jarheadpilot82) 9. 10:10 AM - Re: Re: Idea about front cockpit side door (Jack) 10. 11:29 AM - Re: Fuselage pass through sealing (dgaldrich) 11. 11:39 AM - Re: Fuselage pass through sealing (TOM STINEMETZE) 12. 11:57 AM - Re: Re: Fuselage pass through sealing (Michael Groah) 13. 01:48 PM - Re: questions from a new guy... (Bill Church) 14. 02:02 PM - Re: Re: Wooden Lift Struts (Gboothe5) 15. 02:08 PM - Venting fuel tanks (Don Rucker) 16. 02:19 PM - Re: Venting fuel tanks (TOM STINEMETZE) 17. 02:34 PM - Re: Wooden Lift Struts (kevinpurtee) 18. 02:43 PM - Re: Wooden Lift Struts (K5YAC) 19. 02:53 PM - Re: Re: Wooden Lift Struts (Ryan Mueller) 20. 02:54 PM - Re: Re: Idea about front cockpit side door (Charles Campbell) 21. 03:10 PM - Re: Venting fuel tanks (Hans Van Der Voort) 22. 03:24 PM - Re: Venting fuel tanks (Gboothe5) 23. 03:29 PM - Spruce vs. ????? (mike79wall) 24. 03:33 PM - Re: Venting fuel tanks (Don Rucker) 25. 04:06 PM - Re: Venting fuel tanks (kevinpurtee) 26. 04:11 PM - Re: Venting fuel tanks (kevinpurtee) 27. 04:11 PM - Re: questions from a new guy... (IT Girl) 28. 04:15 PM - Re: Spruce vs. ????? (kevinpurtee) 29. 04:16 PM - Re: Wooden Lift Struts (kevinpurtee) 30. 04:28 PM - Re: Re: questions from a new guy... (amsafetyc@aol.com) 31. 04:40 PM - Re: Spruce vs. ????? () 32. 05:17 PM - Upper Engine Mounts (Jack) 33. 05:24 PM - Re: Spruce vs. ????? (Bill Church) 34. 05:28 PM - Re: Wooden Lift Struts (cjborsuk) 35. 05:46 PM - Re: Spruce vs. ????? (bender) 36. 05:59 PM - Re: Upper Engine Mounts (Bill Church) 37. 06:19 PM - Re: Re: Wooden Lift Struts (Jack) 38. 06:29 PM - Re: Upper Engine Mounts (kevinpurtee) 39. 06:33 PM - Re: questions from a new guy... (kevinpurtee) 40. 06:45 PM - Re: Idea about front cockpit side door (giacummo) 41. 07:44 PM - Re: Re: questions from a new guy... (amsafetyc@aol.com) 42. 08:33 PM - Re: questions from a new guy... (IT Girl) 43. 08:34 PM - Re: Wooden Lift Struts (Clif Dawson) 44. 09:09 PM - spruce alternatives (Clif Dawson) 45. 09:38 PM - Re: Wooden Lift Struts (K5YAC) 46. 11:19 PM - Re: Florida sales tax (kaliya) 47. 11:40 PM - Re: Re: Venting fuel tanks (Peter W Johnson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:40:36 AM PST US From: "Jack" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Idea about front cockpit side door Great progress Mario! Jack DSM Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of giacummo Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 7:25 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Idea about front cockpit side door How different it look. -------- Mario Giacummo http://vgmk1.blogspot.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350180#350180 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:08 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Trial Wing Fit From: "womenfly2" Nice job on the 3-piece wing. -------- Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350298#350298 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:01 AM PST US From: "TOM STINEMETZE" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage pass through sealing Dan: That sounds like it would work great. The durability of leather but a look to match the rest of the paint scheme. I like it! Tom >>> 8/22/2011 6:56 PM >>> Glue a patch of leather on to the fabric, and then cover it with another patch of ceconite. Really works slick and will never look ratty. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:32:58 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wooden Lift Struts From: "K5YAC" As mentioned in an earlier post, Jim Markle and I are gathering the materials necessary to construct our lift struts out of wood. I've done a little research on the matter and have found that several people have done this with good results... the latest being Axel Purtee, but others such as Douwe Blumberg, Wil Graf, Keri Ann Price, Paul Poulin and Allan Weise have also chosen this method. Before I push my shopping cart full of high dollar wood to the checkout lane... any thoughts on this approach? -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350315#350315 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:54:46 AM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Idea about front cockpit side door I have a drawing that I wanted to present to the group, but my scanner/printer is not working properly. So I will have to try to describe the step in words rather than the picture. I'll try not to use 1000 words. :>) Under each seat sticking out of the fuselage is a retractable (telescoping) step. Each step consists of the following. The lelft side of the step is fastened to the lower. left longeron. Five inches into the fuselage is a 1X 1 X 5 block, parallel with the longeron, which supports the inner end of the step. The outside of the step consists of a piece of 3/4 dia tubing, .035 wall thickness, 6-1/8 inch long. The tubing is held to the longeron and 5-inch block with metal straps. Inside the outer tubing is a piece of 5/8 dia .035 wall tubing 11-3/8 inches long (plus a little to run an AN3 bolt with nut which acts as a stop.) On the left end of the smaller tube is welded a round plate 1-3/4 inch dia. (which acts as a stop to keep your foot from sliding off in the extended mode and a asstop at the fabric line in the retracted mode.) Thus in the extended mode you would have about a 5-1/2 inch step; in the retracted mode the round disk would be flat against the fabric of the fuselage. Hope that is clear -- I can't send a picture. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "jarheadpilot82" Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 9:52 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Idea about front cockpit side door > > > Just one more option for a step. I saw this on a Grega, and I don't know > if that is an acceptable option for a step, or it creates stress on the > gear like a weld bar would. > > Not the look that I want, even if it is an acceptable option, but I > thought I would post it anyway. Your thoughts? > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry Hand > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350196#350196 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/grega_step_132.png > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:55:36 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wooden Lift Struts From: gboothe5@comcast.net Mark, As you know, I'm not flying yet, but mine are laminated hickory. By ripping the boards and turning the grain pattern, you only need to find boards with close, straight grain. At home, I have a very thoughtful response from Cliff Dawson, about the strength of wood, that totally assuaged all my concerns. Gary From Cool ------Original Message------ From: K5YAC Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wooden Lift Struts Sent: Aug 23, 2011 8:30 AM As mentioned in an earlier post, Jim Markle and I are gathering the materials necessary to construct our lift struts out of wood. I've done a little research on the matter and have found that several people have done this with good results... the latest being Axel Purtee, but others such as Douwe Blumberg, Wil Graf, Keri Ann Price, Paul Poulin and Allan Weise have also chosen this method. Before I push my shopping cart full of high dollar wood to the checkout lane... any thoughts on this approach? -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350315#350315 Sent on the Sprint Now Network from my BlackBerry ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:09:24 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts From: "K5YAC" Thanks Gary... if you or Clif wouldn't mind, could you forward that information to me so I can read his notes too? I've already e-mailed Clif directly with a few more details on our proposed construction... perhaps he will see this and share those thoughts. gboothe5(at)comcast.net wrote: > Mark, > > As you know, I'm not flying yet, but mine are laminated hickory. By ripping the boards and turning the grain pattern, you only need to find boards with close, straight grain. At home, I have a very thoughtful response from Cliff Dawson, about the strength of wood, that totally assuaged all my concerns. > > Gary From Cool > --- -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350325#350325 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:31:22 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Idea about front cockpit side door From: "jarheadpilot82" Chuck, I like your idea, however, I am neither a graphic arts specialist nor an engineer as well. But I was thinking 2 additions- 1. Could you put a short L-shaped notch on the inside end of the larger diameter pipe, so you could pull the inner pipe with the AN Bolt screwed into it into the notch and turn it slightly to lock the step in place as it is in the extended position. 2. Could you somehow attach a small spring to the end of the pipe to give it a little tension in order to keep it retracted in flight. That way it would not possibly keep vibrating out into the open position. There is enough drag already without adding a pipe sticking out, even if it is small. Just my $.02, but I definitely like your idea. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350326#350326 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:10:37 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Idea about front cockpit side door From: Jack Chuck take a picture of the drawing... Jack Textor Sent from my iPhone On Aug 23, 2011, at 10:52 AM, "Charles Campbell" wrote: > > I have a drawing that I wanted to present to the group, but my scanner/printer is not working properly. So I will have to try to describe the step in words rather than the picture. I'll try not to use 1000 words. :>) > > Under each seat sticking out of the fuselage is a retractable (telescoping) step. Each step consists of the following. The lelft side of the step is fastened to the lower. left longeron. Five inches into the fuselage is a 1X 1 X 5 block, parallel with the longeron, which supports the inner end of the step. The outside of the step consists of a piece of 3/4 dia tubing, .035 wall thickness, 6-1/8 inch long. The tubing is held to the longeron and 5-inch block with metal straps. Inside the outer tubing is a piece of 5/8 dia .035 wall tubing 11-3/8 inches long (plus a little to run an AN3 bolt with nut which acts as a stop.) On the left end of the smaller tube is welded a round plate 1-3/4 inch dia. (which acts as a stop to keep your foot from sliding off in the extended mode and a asstop at the fabric line in the retracted mode.) Thus in the extended mode you would have about a 5-1/2 inch step; in the retracted mode the round disk would be flat against the fabric of the fuselage. Hope that is clear -- I can't send a picture. Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- From: "jarheadpilot82" > To: > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 9:52 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Idea about front cockpit side door > > >> >> Just one more option for a step. I saw this on a Grega, and I don't know if that is an acceptable option for a step, or it creates stress on the gear like a weld bar would. >> >> Not the look that I want, even if it is an acceptable option, but I thought I would post it anyway. Your thoughts? >> >> -------- >> Semper Fi, >> >> Terry Hand >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350196#350196 >> >> >> >> >> Attachments: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/grega_step_132.png >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:29:57 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage pass through sealing From: "dgaldrich" Don't know if anyone mentioned it but after you've rigged the control cables and BEFORE you cover, measure the exact spot where they would go through with reference to some fuselage landmarks. That way, you can use the soldering iron technique and make the minimum hole size and help "control" chafe. No 6 inch teardrop patches covering TLAR mistakes. Dave Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350337#350337 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:39:54 AM PST US From: "TOM STINEMETZE" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage pass through sealing Right! That avoids the "measure twice - swear once" syndrom. Stinemetze do not archive >>> "dgaldrich" 8/23/2011 1:27 PM >>> Don't know if anyone mentioned it but after you've rigged the control cables and BEFORE you cover, measure the exact spot where they would go through with reference to some fuselage landmarks. That way, you can use the soldering iron technique and make the minimum hole size and help "control" chafe. No 6 inch teardrop patches covering TLAR mistakes. Dave ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:57:24 AM PST US From: Michael Groah Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage pass through sealing We made poster board templates that alined with the longerons and had a mea surement from the tail post.- This way we could just lay the template bac k on the side after cover and mark for the holes.- Very simple.=0A=0AMike Groah=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: TOM STINEMETZ E =0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, Au gust 23, 2011 11:37 AM=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage pass through sealing=0A=0A=0ARight!- That avoids the "measure twice - swear once" syn drom.=0A-=0AStinemetze=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A>>> "dgaldrich" 8/23/2011 1:27 PM >>>=0ADon't know if anyone mentioned it but after you've rigged the control cables and BEFORE you cover, measure t he exact spot where they would go through with reference to some fuselage l andmarks.- That way, you can use the soldering iron technique and make th e minimum hole size and help "control" chafe.- No 6 inch teardrop patches == ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:48:54 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: questions from a new guy... From: "Bill Church" Uhhh... WHAT exactly is the point of this thread? BC do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350349#350349 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:02:43 PM PST US From: "Gboothe5" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts I won't be home 'till Thursday...I'll send it then. Gary Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of K5YAC Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 9:07 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts Thanks Gary... if you or Clif wouldn't mind, could you forward that information to me so I can read his notes too? I've already e-mailed Clif directly with a few more details on our proposed construction... perhaps he will see this and share those thoughts. gboothe5(at)comcast.net wrote: > Mark, > > As you know, I'm not flying yet, but mine are laminated hickory. By ripping the boards and turning the grain pattern, you only need to find boards with close, straight grain. At home, I have a very thoughtful response from Cliff Dawson, about the strength of wood, that totally assuaged all my concerns. > > Gary From Cool > --- -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350325#350325 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:08:57 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Venting fuel tanks From: Don Rucker All, We have started planning our fuel system and have a few questions about venting. At this point all we have done is mock up the tanks with foam board. Here is a basic description of the fuel system as planned: We are welding up a 7-gallon aluminum header tank that will feed a C-0200. The header tank will be replenished from a 12-gallon center section tank. There will be a fuel shut off valve between the header tank and the gascolator with the valve stem extended to reach the pilot. There will be a shut off valve in-line, within pilot reach, between the center section tank and the header tank. During an engine out landing, onto an unfriendly field, forrest, etc, I want to be able to shut off both tanks as close to the tanks as possible to protect against fuel flowing from a broken line. For now I am thinking just a simple stick type float gauge on the header tank. The gauge should not begin to move until the center section is empty. With the possible exception of Broadhead I doubt legs will be flown longer than the center section will provide for. For those of you flying with this type gauge a question: does the pressure from the slipstream prevent them from falling correctly? Would you use this type of gauge again? (Yes, I know time and power settings are the only reliable way to calculate fuel remaining but a gauge is still nice) I have noticed a number of Piets with vented caps, a number with vents positioned here and there, and number that appear to have both. I want to vent each tank separately to allow the header tank to continue to work if the center section fuel valve is closed for whatever reason. So, where and how to vent are the questions. Thoughts? Thanks, Don www.firstwings.net (the website is a year out of date. We will update it soon) ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:16 PM PST US From: "TOM STINEMETZE" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Venting fuel tanks Don: Chuck Gantzer from Wichita has a similar system that he described to me early on. He stated that the fuel from the center section tank would overfill the header tank and leak out the vent which just happened to be directly in front of him. Not a good situation. He was using a sliding fuel guage with some type of cork float and the fuel would come out around the guage wire. I would suggest that if you pursue this type of system, the header tank should seal tightly and have a separate vent line that would be up near the height of the vent line for the center section tank. My $ 0.02. Tom Stinemetze >>> Don Rucker 8/23/2011 4:06 PM >>> I have noticed a number of Piets with vented caps, a number with vents positioned here and there, and number that appear to have both. I want to vent each tank separately to allow the header tank to continue to work if the center section fuel valve is closed for whatever reason. So, where and how to vent are the questions. Thoughts? ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:34:42 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts From: "kevinpurtee" You and Markle are going to die, Mark. However, it probably won't be in your Piets, and it probably won't be because of your wood struts, and it probably won't be for a very long time. Just sayin'. do not archive, for goodness sake -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350355#350355 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:43:40 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts From: "K5YAC" I knew it... this is exactly the kind of response I expected. I'm going to go hang out with Recine. kevinpurtee wrote: > You and Markle are going to die, Mark. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350356#350356 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:16 PM PST US From: Ryan Mueller Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts Yes...choose the greater of the two evils ;-) Ryan Do not archive Sent from my iPhone On Aug 23, 2011, at 2:45 PM, K5YAC wrote: > > I knew it... this is exactly the kind of response I expected. I'm going to go hang out with Recine. > > > kevinpurtee wrote: >> You and Markle are going to die, Mark. > > > -------- > Mark Chouinard > Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350356#350356 > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:54:26 PM PST US From: "Charles Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Idea about front cockpit side door Terry, it was not my idea! I got a bunch of prints of different things somewhere and this print was among them. I suspect that it was originally part of the GN-1 plans. I'm not sure of that but someone drew up the idea. Jack Trexor suggested that I take a picture of the print which I will try. If it works out I will post it. Your suggestions sound great to me. ----- Original Message ----- From: "jarheadpilot82" Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 12:28 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Idea about front cockpit side door > > > Chuck, > > I like your idea, however, I am neither a graphic arts specialist nor an > engineer as well. But I was thinking 2 additions- > > 1. Could you put a short L-shaped notch on the inside end of the larger > diameter pipe, so you could pull the inner pipe with the AN Bolt screwed > into it into the notch and turn it slightly to lock the step in place as > it is in the extended position. > > 2. Could you somehow attach a small spring to the end of the pipe to give > it a little tension in order to keep it retracted in flight. That way it > would not possibly keep vibrating out into the open position. There is > enough drag already without adding a pipe sticking out, even if it is > small. > > Just my $.02, but I definitely like your idea. > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry Hand > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350326#350326 > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:10:35 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Venting fuel tanks From: Hans Van Der Voort Have the header tank vent in to the filler neck of your center section tank .. Aeronca's have it that way. If you use separate vents they must be at the same height and location. I did have them at same height but had header tank vent at leading edge of wing (high pressure) and the center tank at 30% cord,.....low pressure area. Gues what will happen at 65 Mph? Your header tank will not fill ! Some things are learned the hard way The Aeronca way is best way to do this system Hans NX15KV -----Original Message----- From: TOM STINEMETZE Sent: Tue, Aug 23, 2011 4:19 pm Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Venting fuel tanks Don: Chuck Gantzer from Wichita has a similar system that he described to me ear ly on. He stated that the fuel from the center section tank would overfill the header tank and leak out the vent which just happened to be directly i n front of him. Not a good situation. He was using a sliding fuel guage w ith some type of cork float and the fuel would come out around the guage wi re. I would suggest that if you pursue this type of system, the header tank sho uld seal tightly and have a separate vent line that would be up near the he ight of the vent line for the center section tank. My $ 0.02. Tom Stinemetze >>> Don Rucker 8/23/2011 4:06 PM >>> I have noticed a number of Piets with vented caps, a number with vents posi tioned here and there, and number that appear to have both. I want to vent each tank separately to allow the header tank to continue to work if the ce nter section fuel valve is closed for whatever reason. So, where and how to vent are the questions. Thoughts? ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:24:09 PM PST US From: "Gboothe5" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Venting fuel tanks FYI.T-crafts have wing tanks that drain into the 12 gallon nose tank, which merely has a wire float. Allowing the wing tank to over fill the nose tank will cause fuel to spew from the vent area in the nose, but there is really no reason why an alert pilot would do that.not that I ever have. :-0 In the case of the T-craft, the main tank is the nose tank, and therefore contains the fuel gauge. One could do the opposite.gauge the wing tank, but then you really don't know what's in the main tank. FAR's require that you have some sort of fuel gauge.but they don't require that you use it. The Great Axel Purtee has a wire gauge on his wing tank (that he can't really see), so the rumor is that he flies by time.what a novel idea.but, then, he's a pro. Gary From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOM STINEMETZE Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 2:17 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Venting fuel tanks Don: Chuck Gantzer from Wichita has a similar system that he described to me early on. He stated that the fuel from the center section tank would overfill the header tank and leak out the vent which just happened to be directly in front of him. Not a good situation. He was using a sliding fuel guage with some type of cork float and the fuel would come out around the guage wire. I would suggest that if you pursue this type of system, the header tank should seal tightly and have a separate vent line that would be up near the height of the vent line for the center section tank. My $ 0.02. Tom Stinemetze >>> Don Rucker 8/23/2011 4:06 PM >>> I have noticed a number of Piets with vented caps, a number with vents positioned here and there, and number that appear to have both. I want to vent each tank separately to allow the header tank to continue to work if the center section fuel valve is closed for whatever reason. So, where and how to vent are the questions. Thoughts? ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:29:46 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Spruce vs. ????? From: "mike79wall" Hello all! Just recently joined this forum, and have a few questions. They are of the "newbie" order, so take it easy on me. A friend of mine and I are beginning the process of building a Piet. We have a few questions, as we plan our build. 1) Is there an effective alternative to Sitka Spruce? Here in Nebraska, Sitka is a bit difficult to come by. 2) As I am a cabinet maker utilizing a CNC Machine, does anyone cut wing ribs out of plywood? Drawing and cutting could be a fun project for myself. Thanks for your attention, I'm sure we'll all be good friends by the end of our build. Mike Wall Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350361#350361 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:33:12 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Venting fuel tanks From: Don Rucker Tom, Thank you, what was I thinking! Yes that is exactly what would happen. I can not believe that did not occur to me. Perhaps it could still work if I extended the header vent out the top of the center section and only opened the center tank valve to manually replenish fuel burned form the header every hour or so. As you point out leaving the header sealed except for the vent (placed above the center tank) would also work but refueling would take awhile. Thanks again for your reply, Don ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:06:06 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Venting fuel tanks From: "kevinpurtee" @Gary - I have a small mirror (shaped amazingly like Hello Kitty) on a lanyard in the cockpit so I can check the gage in flight. I have done so, but not very often. Typically, I use the mirror to make sure I actually reinstalled the gas cap or to check the fuel level when doing lots of little short hops, like giving rides. -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350364#350364 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/kitty_112.jpg ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:11:14 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Venting fuel tanks From: "kevinpurtee" @Gary again - off topic a little: my day job machine gives me continuously updated fuel burn, amount on board and endurance. We were out last week trying to get some stuff done and I pressed the fuel a little more then I normally would. I landed with the regulatory minimum, but just barely, and I (should have) had adequate fuel in both tanks according to the machine. Right as I was touching down the fuel PSI warning light for the aft tank went on. Oops! The moral? Even those fancy gages that you can read from the cockpit lie:). do not archive -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350366#350366 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:11:56 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: questions from a new guy... From: "IT Girl" The point is that John is in a hotel room, unaccompanied, and he is bored and wishes to be entertained. -------- Shelley Tumino IT Girl wife of "Axel" NX899KP DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350367#350367 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:15:12 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce vs. ????? From: "kevinpurtee" Hi Mike and welcome. Take a look at the archive feature on this list. Also, Dan Yocum recently gave instructions on how to use Google to be very precise in searching the archives. Take a look through the last dozen posts or so and you'll find his post. Again, welcome, and start planning to attend Brodhead in 2012. -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350368#350368 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 04:16:11 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts From: "kevinpurtee" Thank you, Ryan! do not arhcive -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350369#350369 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 04:28:24 PM PST US From: "amsafetyc@aol.com" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: questions from a new guy... Not sure which John nut so am I. Its a lovely day in Portland Oregon. Arrived this morning and checking into the hotel soon enough this evening. So I guess I qualify on that score too John Do not archive Sam I am! Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: IT Girl Sent: Tue, Aug 23, 2011 23:12:15 GMT+00:00 Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: questions from a new guy... The point is that John is in a hotel room, unaccompanied, and he is bored and wishes to be entertained. -------- Shelley Tumino IT Girl wife of "Axel" NX899KP DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350367#350367 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 04:40:59 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce vs. ????? Generally Douglas fir can be used for Spruce. It won't be as light but is a little stronger. Often Douglas fir can be found locally but be sure you know what to look for as far as quality. Study the material on rings per inch and runout, grain etc. I found some for my project that was really good but I had to search through 3 piles of 2X4s to find it. Rodney Hall ---- mike79wall wrote: > > Hello all! > > Just recently joined this forum, and have a few questions. They are of the "newbie" order, so take it easy on me. A friend of mine and I are beginning the process of building a Piet. We have a few questions, as we plan our build. > > 1) Is there an effective alternative to Sitka Spruce? Here in Nebraska, Sitka is a bit difficult to come by. > > 2) As I am a cabinet maker utilizing a CNC Machine, does anyone cut wing ribs out of plywood? Drawing and cutting could be a fun project for myself. > > Thanks for your attention, I'm sure we'll all be good friends by the end of our build. > > Mike Wall > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350361#350361 > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 05:17:40 PM PST US From: "Jack" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Upper Engine Mounts For those Engineers and flying Piet owners I would appreciate some advice. I made my upper engine mounts per plans with the exception they are .090 4130. The plans call for 14 gauge steel (.080 I believe). I read an article last night by Mr. Pietenpol where he stated one change he would suggest for those installing C-65's (mine is a C-85) would be to lengthen the mounts 3 inches. I've attached a drawing showing the change. I'm planning to make the modification unless those in the know think I'm nuts. Thanks, Jack DSM ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:28 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce vs. ????? From: "Bill Church" Hi Mike, Welcome to the forum. When it comes to choosing wood for their Piets, a lot of builders seem to spend an inordinate amount of time trying to save a few bucks. If Sitka is ordered pre-cut from Aircraft Spruce, that wood will likely only account for 10% (or less) of the total materials cost for the finished project. If you manage to find a local source of a suitable alternate wood, and select and grade it, and rip it yourself, you could reduce that percentage to 3 or 4%... for a total savings of $600 or $700 (or, in other terms, maybe 10 tanks of AV Gas). Not that $600 is an amount to sneeze at - it's just that the cost of Sitka (or Douglas Fir, or Poplar, or Hemlock or whatever) is not one of the most expensive components of the plane. Actually, shipping of all of your supplies will likely account for more than the cost of the wood - maybe THAT is where to look for savings. If aircraft builders only built with locally available wood species, only those on the extreme west coast would build with Sitka. Wood can be shipped almost anywhere. Now, having said all that, I purchased my wood (Sitka) locally, from a specialty wood supplier, in rough plank form, and ripped all of my wood on my table saw. But then, I enjoy woodworking, so I didn't mind the extra work required to do all that sawing. As for your question about the ribs, it probably has been done at some point over the past 80 years that people have been building Pietenpols, but it won't be cheaper, and it won't be stronger, and it won't likely be lighter than the plans-built truss ribs. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350379#350379 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 05:28:55 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts From: "cjborsuk" Mark, I am glad you asked the question. The picture below is the solid spruce I would like to use for my struts. Any thoughts from all the good people?? Chuck in Raleigh NC N899CB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350380#350380 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/spruce_struts_873.jpg ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 05:46:47 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce vs. ????? From: "bender" i'm a big fan of poplar... but i've used other wood too... fir spars and white pine in a place or too i think stick built ribs are fun.. and pretty easy.... it takes me about a half hour to make one jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350383#350383 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 05:59:23 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Upper Engine Mounts From: "Bill Church" Hey Jack, I believe that Mr Pietenpol already extended those upper mounts. The original mounts for the Ford Model A are shorter than the drawings you attached (from the supplemental plans). And if you look at the plan sheet for the Continental mount, you'll see basically the same detail, but with a note that says .090 (sound familiar?). I'd say you're okay to use the plans without modification. By the way, nobody THINKS you're nuts ... :) Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350384#350384 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 06:19:27 PM PST US From: "Jack" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts Chuck, First I'm not an Engineer, A&P, IA or an authority on wood stress properties. I built a laminated spar because those that did know about these properties told me it was stronger than a solid spar. Again, not an authority, I was concerned about hidden flaws in the wood and the laminated spar helped with that concern. Jack DSM -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cjborsuk Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 7:27 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts Mark, I am glad you asked the question. The picture below is the solid spruce I would like to use for my struts. Any thoughts from all the good people?? Chuck in Raleigh NC N899CB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350380#350380 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/spruce_struts_873.jpg ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 06:29:55 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Upper Engine Mounts From: "kevinpurtee" (i think he's nu.....) Oh! Sorry! Hello, Jack! do not archive -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350388#350388 ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:20 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: questions from a new guy... From: "kevinpurtee" Rest assured, John Recine, she was talking about you. do not archive -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350389#350389 ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:27 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Idea about front cockpit side door From: "giacummo" Is somebody/someone (how you say that? one/body.. I always forgot it) realy interested in this "other" solution?. I was looking just for the Piet plans and in particular the point the engine supports are fixed. In this 4 point there is a lot of forces playing when the airlen take down, and there are simple bolts joins; the iron pieces could be bigger or smaller.. I do not know, but there are lot's of holes where the longerons end.. and it work fine!!!!! I think the moment that this point play there major work is when the airplane touch down... the engine want to go dow still, so there is a great traction force applied to the upper joins.. I am ok?... now thinking in the longeron suggestes door, i think the forces are slower than that's of the engine mount point. Am I wrong?.. I am just playing with dynamic and statcis forces... Let's burn some more neurons... ;0) good night -------- Mario Giacummo http://vgmk1.blogspot.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350392#350392 ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:50 PM PST US From: "amsafetyc@aol.com" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: questions from a new guy... Dinner is done now bring on the entertainment! John Do not archive Sam I am Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: "amsafetyc@aol.com" Sent: Tue, Aug 23, 2011 23:28:33 GMT+00:00 Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: questions from a new guy... Not sure which John nut so am I. Its a lovely day in Portland Oregon. Arrived this morning and checking into the hotel soon enough this evening. So I guess I qualify on that score too John Do not archive Sam I am! Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: IT Girl Sent: Tue, Aug 23, 2011 23:12:15 GMT+00:00 Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: questions from a new guy... The point is that John is in a hotel room, unaccompanied, and he is bored and wishes to be entertained. -------- Shelley Tumino IT Girl wife of "Axel" NX899KP DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350367#350367 ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:06 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: questions from a new guy... From: "IT Girl" I am pondering your engine art dilemma, and trying to come up with artwork design ideas for you.... trying to think of something that addresses your design choices and your personality.... I'll let you know what I come up with :) -------- Shelley Tumino IT Girl wife of "Axel" NX899KP DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350397#350397 ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:20 PM PST US From: "Clif Dawson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wooden Lift Struts It's a good thing you still have it because my 'pooter has disappeared the thing! How about sending it on to Mark for me. Thanks Gary. Clif - STILL workin' on brakes! > At home, I have a very thoughtful response from Cliff Dawson, about the strength of wood, that totally assuaged all my concerns. > > Gary From Cool > As mentioned in an earlier post, Jim Markle and I are gathering the > materials necessary to construct our lift struts out of wood. > Before I > push my shopping cart full of high dollar wood to the checkout lane... any > thoughts on this approach? > > -------- > Mark Chouinard > Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:27 PM PST US From: "Clif Dawson" Subject: Pietenpol-List: spruce alternatives Go here and down the page about 3/4. Two charts on wood properties. http://www.clifdawson.ca/Homepage4-10-06/Tools_and_Tips.html ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:27 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts From: "K5YAC" Yeah, please do that when you get time Gary. cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca wrote: > It's a good thing you still have it because my 'pooter has disappeared the thing! > > How about sending it on to Mark for me. > Cool Gary wrote: > > At home, I have a very thoughtful response from Cliff Dawson, about the strength of wood, that totally assuaged all my concerns. > -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350402#350402 ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 11:19:41 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Florida sales tax From: "kaliya" oh! nice web page , Relay fantastic This site use full to all around the would, use it develop both......... Camper Van For Sales (http://www.campervanforsales.com.au/) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350407#350407 ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 11:40:26 PM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: RE: Venting fuel tanks Don, I made my system in a similar way to Hans. I originally vented the header tank with the vent at center section tank height with the vent pointing forward. That created too much pressure in the header tank and would not fill from the center section. Next I pointed in the opposite direction and that syphoned the fuel out over the wing. I ended up putting the vent inside the center section tank as Hans did. That work a treat. I only had a fuel contents gauge on the center section tank. When that ran out it was time to land! Cheers Peter Wonthaggi Australia http://www.cpc-world.com From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Rucker Sent: Wednesday, 24 August 2011 8:31 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Venting fuel tanks Tom, Thank you, what was I thinking! Yes that is exactly what would happen. I can not believe that did not occur to me. Perhaps it could still work if I extended the header vent out the top of the center section and only opened the center tank valve to manually replenish fuel burned form the header every hour or so. As you point out leaving the header sealed except for the vent (placed above the center tank) would also work but refueling would take awhile. Thanks again for your reply, Don ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.