---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 08/26/11: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:42 AM - Re: Rib - about to cut wood - spar perpendicular to chord line? (Don Emch) 2. 05:02 AM - Re: Keri-Ann's plans (Greg Cardinal) 3. 07:09 AM - Re: Cabanes (Spruce vs. ?????) (K5YAC) 4. 07:11 AM - Re: Wooden Lift Struts (K5YAC) 5. 07:28 AM - Re: Re: Cabanes (Spruce vs. ?????) (Gboothe5) 6. 08:30 AM - Re: Rib - about to cut wood - spar perpendicular to chord line? (Mild Bill) 7. 09:09 AM - Re: Rib - about to cut wood - spar perpendicular to chord line? (Mild Bill) 8. 09:13 AM - Re: Rib - about to cut wood - spar perpendicular to chord line? (Don Emch) 9. 11:14 AM - Re: Rib - about to cut wood - spar perpendicular to chord line? (Mild Bill) 10. 02:32 PM - Re: Re: Rib - about to cut wood - spar perpendicular to chord line? (mark lee) 11. 03:20 PM - Tail Brace Wire Size (John Kuhfahl) 12. 03:58 PM - Re: Tail Brace Wire Size (Jerry Dotson) 13. 04:08 PM - Re: Re: Tail Brace Wire Size (Gboothe5) 14. 04:24 PM - Re: Re: Rib - about to cut wood - spar perpendicular to chord line? (Dan Yocum) 15. 06:38 PM - Re: Tail Brace Wire Size (Ben Charvet) 16. 07:43 PM - Re: Rib - about to cut wood - spar perpendicular to chord line? (Pieti Lowell) 17. 08:09 PM - first flight (Donald Lane) 18. 08:31 PM - Re: first flight (Billy McCaskill) 19. 09:56 PM - Re: Re: first flight (Gboothe5) 20. 10:40 PM - Re: first flight (Greg Cardinal) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:42:36 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib - about to cut wood - spar perpendicular to chord line? From: "Don Emch" In response to Mild Bill, it is important that the front and rear cabanes are NOT the same length. If they are the airplane will seem to fly nose high all the time. MaximumBob, the best thing you can do at this point in the project is to buy a set of plans from the Pietenpol family and start building the airframe according to them. Trust me, you won't be disappointed. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350613#350613 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:02:43 AM PST US From: "Greg Cardinal" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Keri-Ann's plans NX18235 was built using Keri-Ann's plans for the gapless 3-piece wing and the gapless ailerons. They are good plans and I am happy with the mods. Greg Cardinal Minneapolis ----- Original Message ----- From: "j_dunavin" Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 12:18 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Keri-Ann's plans > > has anyone modified their piet to these plans? > http://sites.google.com/site/pietenpolplanpackages/pietenpol-plan-packages/suppemental-plan-packages > I'm interested in the gapless three piece wing, and the gapless ailerons. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350601#350601 > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:48 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cabanes (Spruce vs. ?????) From: "K5YAC" Thanks for posting this Gary. I commented to Jim a few days ago that good or bad, the wooden lift strut thread should keep us entertained for the rest of the week. Well, it has certainly done that, and the discussion has also convinced me that we are on the right track. I had not really considered wooden lift struts until just a few days ago when Jim mentioned the idea. Initially I thought it sounded great as I started to think about how certain woods would LOOK. A few days into that and the thought struck me... which woods will WORK? Jim had the right idea all along based upon what he has seen and learned over the years, but the thought being new to me required me to ask a few questions. The conversation with everyone here and offline has shed a lot of light on the subject. Thanks all! -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350629#350629 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:11:20 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts From: "K5YAC" Anyone searching for information on wooden lift struts should also read this thread... http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350629#350629 -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350630#350630 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:28:03 AM PST US From: "Gboothe5" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cabanes (Spruce vs. ?????) You are welcome! NOTE: this is before Clif promoted re-bar and Kevlar...:-) (you see how rumors get started?) Gary Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of K5YAC Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 7:07 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cabanes (Spruce vs. ?????) Thanks for posting this Gary. I commented to Jim a few days ago that good or bad, the wooden lift strut thread should keep us entertained for the rest of the week. Well, it has certainly done that, and the discussion has also convinced me that we are on the right track. I had not really considered wooden lift struts until just a few days ago when Jim mentioned the idea. Initially I thought it sounded great as I started to think about how certain woods would LOOK. A few days into that and the thought struck me... which woods will WORK? Jim had the right idea all along based upon what he has seen and learned over the years, but the thought being new to me required me to ask a few questions. The conversation with everyone here and offline has shed a lot of light on the subject. Thanks all! -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350629#350629 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:30:04 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib - about to cut wood - spar perpendicular to chord line? From: "Mild Bill" In the post I linked to in my first reply, yocum137 stated that the Riblett 612 will be set to the correct incidence if one sets the spars down on the lower capstrips and keeps the cabane struts equal length. If that is true, then the airplane won't seem to fly nose high. If that is false, then exactly what disasters will befall the builder who obtains the desired incidence by extending the attachment fittings on the front spar by an inch or two? -------- Bill Frank Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350637#350637 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:09:07 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib - about to cut wood - spar perpendicular to chord line? From: "Mild Bill" MaximumBob - I don't know yet one way or the other, but perhaps Rewey expected the incidence angle to be 1.5 deg and made the spar faces vertical relative to the horizon at that incidence by setting the spar faces at 88.5 deg relative to the chord line. Somebody expecting the correct incidence to be 2 deg would set the spar faces at 88 deg. Setting the spar faces at 90 deg relative to the horizon in level flight might be fairly common, but it's not required from considerations of structural strength. If you want 90 deg relative to the chord line, knock yourself out. -------- Bill Frank Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350639#350639 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:01 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib - about to cut wood - spar perpendicular to chord line? From: "Don Emch" Sorry about that Mild Bill. I didn't realize there is some built in incidence in that wing rib. I don't know much about that rib. The two things I do know is that Mr. Riblett's claims about the Pietenpol airfoil are not at all true and that there is exactly one airplane flying with that airfoil and I believe Mr. Frank is planning to make some changes in the incidence department. Just keep in mind that after all the hard work of building it you may have to go back and rework some things to get it to fly right. For a lot of folks that is fun and they like to do that sort of thing, which is great! Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350640#350640 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:14:52 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib - about to cut wood - spar perpendicular to chord line? From: "Mild Bill" Don - That's all right. I'm not absolutely sure that yocum137 was correct, which is why I asked if there would be any problems with extending the front attach fittings. I suspect not, but if there's a potential problem with structural strength it will be far better to discuss it and find out now rather than find out in flight later. (Perhaps someone can point to some threads where it's already been hashed out.) Hey, I'm Mr. Frank! :D If I remember correctly, Lowell Frank [username Pieti Lowell on this forum] cllipped the wing by 2' but I'm not sure if that's off each wing tip or only off the total span. Either way, the loss in lift due to loss in surface area should theoretically be compensated for by increasing the angle of attack for a given flight condition. Hopefully Pieti will provide us a summary of how the angle of incidence was handled originally and what changes are contemplated. -------- Bill Frank Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350651#350651 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:32:40 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib - about to cut wood - spar perpendicular to chord line? From: mark lee Bill I'm very interested in how well the Riblett 612 works for you. Are you planning on a trailing edge cut out on the center section? Are there any more things that you are doing like Keri-Ann's no gap ailerons or no gap three piece wing? I'm wondering if the piet airfoil might have some bad stall characteristics if it was used on a sail plane[amusing thought for entertainment purpose only]. I got the impression that sailplane airfoils is his main focus. Anyway I hope that you do see some meaningful performance gains. I'll be watching your posts with much interest. Do not post. On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 9:10 AM, Don Emch wrote: > > Sorry about that Mild Bill. I didn't realize there is some built in > incidence in that wing rib. I don't know much about that rib. The two > things I do know is that Mr. Riblett's claims about the Pietenpol airfoil > are not at all true and that there is exactly one airplane flying with that > airfoil and I believe Mr. Frank is planning to make some changes in the > incidence department. Just keep in mind that after all the hard work of > building it you may have to go back and rework some things to get it to fly > right. For a lot of folks that is fun and they like to do that sort of > thing, which is great! > > Don Emch > NX899DE > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350640#350640 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:20:32 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tail Brace Wire Size From: John Kuhfahl What size tail brace wires are you using? I've seen 1/16th an 1/8th inch. Thanks John -- John Kuhfahl, Lt Col USAF (Ret), President, KUHLCOUPER LLC ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:58:52 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Tail Brace Wire Size From: "Jerry Dotson" I used 1/8" mainly because I had an ample supply of it. I think most use 3/32". I used 1/8" throughout the airplane. Mine will probably cruise 73 rather than 75! -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 wing, tailfeathers done, fuselage rolling using Lycoming O-235 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350680#350680 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:08:26 PM PST US From: "Gboothe5" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Tail Brace Wire Size I used 3/32"...I'm shooting for a fast Piet.... Gary -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Dotson Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 3:56 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Tail Brace Wire Size I used 1/8" mainly because I had an ample supply of it. I think most use 3/32". I used 1/8" throughout the airplane. Mine will probably cruise 73 rather than 75! -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 wing, tailfeathers done, fuselage rolling using Lycoming O-235 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350680#350680 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:24:34 PM PST US From: Dan Yocum Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib - about to cut wood - spar perpendicular to chord line? On 08/26/2011 01:12 PM, Mild Bill wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mild Bill" > > Don - > > That's all right. I'm not absolutely sure that yocum137 was correct, which is why I asked if there would be any problems with extending the front attach fittings. I suspect not, but if there's a potential problem with structural strength it will be far better to discuss it and find out now rather than find out in flight later. (Perhaps someone can point to some threads where it's already been hashed out.) > Hey, I only got a minor in Math (but I still can't do simple arithmetic). Anyway, look at the Riblett plan. If you set the spars on top of the bottom cap strip, and measure down from the chord line, you will see that the front spar is lower than the rear spar by 1" 3/32. There's 29" between the front and rear spars center on center. Run the math. SOH: sine theta = opposite / hypotenuse. Angle theta comes out to be 1 degree, which is what Lowell suggests. So, that's why you should make the cabanes the same length - the 1 degree AoI is already built in to the Riblett GA30-612 rib. Cheers! Dan > Hey, I'm Mr. Frank! :D > > If I remember correctly, Lowell Frank [username Pieti Lowell on this forum] cllipped the wing by 2' but I'm not sure if that's off each wing tip or only off the total span. Either way, the loss in lift due to loss in surface area should theoretically be compensated for by increasing the angle of attack for a given flight condition. Hopefully Pieti will provide us a summary of how the angle of incidence was handled originally and what changes are contemplated. > > -------- > Bill Frank > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350651#350651 > > -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:38:48 PM PST US From: Ben Charvet Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tail Brace Wire Size I used 3/32, I think that is what the plans call for. Probably saved a small insignificant amount of weight that I compensated for by adding a Maule tailwheel.... Ben On 8/26/2011 6:18 PM, John Kuhfahl wrote: > What size tail brace wires are you using? I've seen 1/16th an 1/8th > inch. Thanks John > > -- > John Kuhfahl, Lt Col USAF (Ret), > President, KUHLCOUPER LLC > * > > > * -- Ben Charvet, PharmD Staff Pharmacist Parrish Medical center ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:09 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib - about to cut wood - spar perpendicular to chord line? From: "Pieti Lowell" My 612 was clipped 24"total and the center section is a lifting 24"area, with a cross-flow radiator lowered allowing 10" between the bottom of the wing and the top of the radiator. Those of you using engines other than a Ford or water cooling power plants will have additional area working to your advantage. I first left the cabanes as Pietenpol had on the drawings, front 1" longer than the rear, But Riblett suggested 1 Degree of incident, not being so bright I am changing the rear cabanes in 1/2"adjustments upward to get the flight characteristics that suite me with the clipped wing, With the standard length wing you will not go wrong with Mr Ribletts suggestion. Even though he said that the Piet's wing had an abrupt stall. He did say that the Piet wing had a high speed problem. Try going 110 MPH with a 145 Werner, it is not easy without a flutter of fabric just ahead of the trailing edge. The 612 high speed flutter is not at the same speed, could be a much higher speed, of which I won't be looking for. Over 115 MPH' Pieti Lowell Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350702#350702 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:10 PM PST US From: "Donald Lane" Subject: Pietenpol-List: first flight Pietenpol N110DL made her first flight yesterday 8/25/11, at Bayboro NC, piloted by Barry Triplett. He found the airplane to handle well and said it flies like a Cub. One quick flight this morning and then we had to take off the wings again and move her to safer ground before Irene gets here. Got everything secured just before the rain started. Don Lane ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:09 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: first flight From: "Billy McCaskill" Congrats on your maiden flight, Don! I'm sure that you can't wait for the storm to blow over so that you can bolt the wings back on and put lots of enjoyable hours on her! -------- Billy McCaskill Urbana, IL tail section almost done, starting on ribs soon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350707#350707 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:20 PM PST US From: "Gboothe5" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: first flight Congratulations, Don! She looks like a beauty. Best wishes in the coming days... Gary Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Billy McCaskill Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 8:29 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: first flight Congrats on your maiden flight, Don! I'm sure that you can't wait for the storm to blow over so that you can bolt the wings back on and put lots of enjoyable hours on her! -------- Billy McCaskill Urbana, IL tail section almost done, starting on ribs soon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350707#350707 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:06 PM PST US From: "Greg Cardinal" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: first flight Fantastic! No brakes and a tailskid, classic color scheme, a streamer of oil running down the cowling and look at the grass hanging on the landing gear bracing cables. I think Bernard would smile approvingly. Very lovely, congratulations! Greg Cardinal Minneapolis ----- Original Message ----- From: Donald Lane To: pietenpol Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 10:07 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: first flight Pietenpol N110DL made her first flight yesterday 8/25/11, at Bayboro NC, piloted by Barry Triplett. He found the airplane to handle well and said it flies like a Cub. One quick flight this morning and then we had to take off the wings again and move her to safer ground before Irene gets here. Got everything secured just before the rain started. 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