Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:20 AM - Re: CG Question (Jack Phillips)
2. 04:36 AM - Re: Control horns (Jack Phillips)
3. 04:52 AM - Re: CG Question (Jim Courtney)
4. 05:56 AM - Re: CG Question (Jim Boyer)
5. 06:54 AM - way to go Chris!! (Douwe Blumberg)
6. 08:00 AM - Re: way to go Chris!! (Chris Rusch)
7. 09:22 AM - Re: CG Question (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG FORSCOM)
8. 09:52 AM - Re: CG Question (Wayne Bressler)
9. 03:21 PM - Re: Control horns (Scott Knowlton)
10. 05:08 PM - Re: Control horns (kevinpurtee)
11. 06:07 PM - Re: Re: Control horns (Amsafetc)
Message 1
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Larry,
First, congrats on making such a nice looking Pietenpol!
I think you'll probably be OK, but your CG is slightly aft of mine. Mine
has the CG at 19.63" aft of the leading edge with me, full fuel and no
passenger. Adding a 170 lb passenger moves it to 19.68" aft of LE. My wing
is 3.75" aft of vertical.
Did you include water in the radiator when doing your weight and balance?
That will help.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry
Morlock
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 10:12 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: CG Question
I have a question on CG limits. I have just completed the weight and
balance calculations on my Pietenpol (Model A engine, one piece wing, see
attached). My CG is within the limit of no more than 20 inches behind the
wing leading edge - just barely. Is there any value to moving the wing back
another inch so it has some margin ahead of the 20 inch limit?
Here's the numbers I calculated:
Empty weight with oil and water - 710 lbs
CG with 200 lb pilot and 10 gallons of fuel - 19.9 in behind LE
CG with 170 lb passenger - 20.1 in behind LE
The cabanes are already 2.5 inches back from vertical. Theoretically, I am
OK with the wing as it is, but would it be better to have it more toward the
center of the allowable CG range?
Appreciate any thoughts.
Larry Morlock
Message 2
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Scott,
Good question. I put LPS Corrosion prevention spray in mine, spraying it
around inside as well as I could after priming with epoxy primer (which I
also sprayed inside as well as possible).
This brings up a good point to add to your annual condition inspection - to
grab and twist each horn to determine if they are rusted through internally.
It would be a pain in the butt to replace them once the airplane is flying,
but better to find it at inspection than in flight.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott
Knowlton
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 10:37 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Control horns
<flyingscott_k@hotmail.com>
I fabricated the elevator and rudder control horns over the past couple of
days to the plans. Fun work and a good test of my newly acquired gas
welding skills. I have a question for those of you who built them to the
plans. After zinc chromating them it occurred to me that there will be a
large area of unprotected metal inside the horn since the forward end that
attaches to the wooden spar of the control surface is open ("butterflied" if
you will to attach to the spar). What can be done to protect this bare
metal? I thought of spraying linseed oil or fluid film into the opening
and sloshing it around. I'm not keen on seeing corrosion on these horns
which are so visible on the completed aircraft (not to mention they are a
requirement for controlled flight!).
Regards to all Pietenpol builders and fliers out there.
Scott Knowlton
Burlington Ontario
Message 3
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I haven't built mine yet (but I have plans from Don)...From the Air Force L
oadmaster standpoint, I can tell you that an airplane is more 'touchy' at s
low speed with a CG toward the aft limits than one-closer to the normal l
imits of the design...A stall can be more violent and it would be easier fo
r the airplane to flip over on its back or-flatten our to a spin-(Altho
ugh, I have never had a C-130 do that...LOL)...A more forward CG (within li
mits)-will-allow an airplane to glide with more stability without power
....Control pressures might feel a little heavier with the CG further away
from the aft-limits but that shouldn't be any concern with this most-ex
cellent aeroplane design....I'm sure actual builders and fliers of our belo
ved Air Camper can add good counsel with details to your quest for informat
ion.=0A-=0AHappy building!=0A-=0AJim Courtney=0A=0AFrom: Larry Morlock
<l.morlock@att.net>=0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Thursday, Se
ptember 15, 2011 9:11 PM=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: CG Question=0A=0A=0A
=0AI have a question on CG limits.- I have just =0Acompleted the weight a
nd balance calculations on my Pietenpol (Model A engine, =0Aone piece wing,
see attached).- My CG is within the limit of-no more =0Athan 20 inches
behind the-wing leading edge - just barely.- =0AIs-there any-value
to moving the wing back another inch so it has some =0Amargin ahead of the
20 inch limit? =0A=0AHere's the numbers I calculated: =0A=0AEmpty weight w
ith oil and water - 710 =0Albs =0ACG with 200 lb pilot and-10-gallons o
f =0Afuel - 19.9 in behind LE =0ACG-with 170 lb passenger - 20.1 in behin
d =0ALE =0A=0AThe cabanes are already 2.5 inches back from =0Avertical.-
Theoretically, I am OK with the wing as it is, but would it be =0Abetter to
have it more toward the center of the allowable CG range? =0A- =0AApprec
iate any thoughts. =0A- =0A--- Larry Morlock
Message 4
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Hi Larry,
What a nice looking Piet. It is very pretty with the colors you have chosen. I
really like it.
As to the CG I can only say a lot of Piets have their cabanes back about 4 inces
so it might help the pitch sensitivity to put them back another half inch.
Cheers,
Jim B.
Message 5
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| Subject: | way to go Chris!! |
Awesome work Chris, congrats!! Will make a beautiful engine!!!
Douwe
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: way to go Chris!! |
Thanks Douwe, you will like it when you see it.......
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352462#352462
Message 7
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In layman's terms, the reason a plane gets more "Twitchy" with an aft CG is the
shortened distance between the CG (moved aft) and the elevator.
Move the CG forward and the plane becomes more stable. When the CG is too far forward,
the plane becomes so stable that the required response may be too slow
or not possible. IE too far forward a CG and you can't get a good flare when
required.
Blue Skies,
Steve D
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Courtney <jbciii5656@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: CG Question
> I haven't built mine yet (but I have plans from Don)...From the Air
> Force Loadmaster standpoint, I can tell you that an airplane is
> more 'touchy' at slow speed with a CG toward the aft limits than
> onecloser to the normal limits of the design...A stall can be more
> violent and it would be easier for the airplane to flip over on its
> back orflatten our to a spin(Although, I have never had a C-130
> do that...LOL)...A more forward CG (within limits)willallow an
> airplane to glide with more stability without power....Control
> pressures might feel a little heavier with the CG further away from
> the aftlimits but that shouldn't be any concern with this
> mostexcellent aeroplane design....I'm sure actual builders and
> fliers of our beloved Air Camper can add good counsel with details
> to your quest for information.
>
> Happy building!
>
> Jim Courtney
>
> From: Larry Morlock <
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 9:11 PM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: CG Question
>
>
>
> I have a question on CG limits. I have just
> completed the weight and balance calculations on my Pietenpol (Model A engine,
> one piece wing, see attached). My CG is within the limit ofno more
> than 20 inches behind thewing leading edge - just barely.
> Isthere anyvalue to moving the wing back another inch so it has some
> margin ahead of the 20 inch limit?
>
> Here's the numbers I calculated:
>
> Empty weight with oil and water - 710
> lbs
> CG with 200 lb pilot and10gallons of
> fuel - 19.9 in behind LE
> CGwith 170 lb passenger - 20.1 in behind
> LE
>
> The cabanes are already 2.5 inches back from
> vertical. Theoretically, I am OK with the wing as it is, but would it be
> better to have it more toward the center of the allowable CG range?
>
> Appreciate any thoughts.
>
> Larry Morlock
Message 8
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I thought the reason for the increased sensitivity was due to the Center of Gravity
becoming closer to the wing's Center of Pressure.
I guess it's time to dig out my textbooks...
Wayne Bressler
Taildraggers, Inc.
www.taildraggersinc.com
On Sep 16, 2011, at 12:20 PM, "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG FORSCOM" <steven.d.dortch@us.army.mil>
wrote:
>
> In layman's terms, the reason a plane gets more "Twitchy" with an aft CG is the
shortened distance between the CG (moved aft) and the elevator.
>
> Move the CG forward and the plane becomes more stable. When the CG is too far
forward, the plane becomes so stable that the required response may be too slow
or not possible. IE too far forward a CG and you can't get a good flare when
required.
>
> Blue Skies,
> Steve D
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jim Courtney <jbciii5656@yahoo.com>
> Date: Friday, September 16, 2011 6:59
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: CG Question
> To: "pietenpol-list@matronics.com" <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
>
>
>> I haven't built mine yet (but I have plans from Don)...From the Air
>> Force Loadmaster standpoint, I can tell you that an airplane is
>> more 'touchy' at slow speed with a CG toward the aft limits than
>> one closer to the normal limits of the design...A stall can be more
>> violent and it would be easier for the airplane to flip over on its
>> back or flatten our to a spin (Although, I have never had a C-130
>> do that...LOL)...A more forward CG (within limits) will allow an
>> airplane to glide with more stability without power....Control
>> pressures might feel a little heavier with the CG further away from
>> the aft limits but that shouldn't be any concern with this
>> most excellent aeroplane design....I'm sure actual builders and
>> fliers of our beloved Air Camper can add good counsel with details
>> to your quest for information.
>>
>> Happy building!
>>
>> Jim Courtney
>>
>> From: Larry Morlock <
>> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 9:11 PM
>> Subject: Pietenpol-List: CG Question
>>
>>
>>
>> I have a question on CG limits. I have just
>> completed the weight and balance calculations on my Pietenpol (Model A engine,
>> one piece wing, see attached). My CG is within the limit of no more
>> than 20 inches behind the wing leading edge - just barely.
>> Is there any value to moving the wing back another inch so it has some
>> margin ahead of the 20 inch limit?
>>
>> Here's the numbers I calculated:
>>
>> Empty weight with oil and water - 710
>> lbs
>> CG with 200 lb pilot and 10 gallons of
>> fuel - 19.9 in behind LE
>> CG with 170 lb passenger - 20.1 in behind
>> LE
>>
>> The cabanes are already 2.5 inches back from
>> vertical. Theoretically, I am OK with the wing as it is, but would it be
>> better to have it more toward the center of the allowable CG range?
>>
>> Appreciate any thoughts.
>>
>> Larry Morlock
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Control horns |
Thanks Jack. Good advice. It is amazing the little things that don't occur to
a builder until he actually holds a completed part in his hand.
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: Jack Phillips <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Control horns
Scott,
Good question. I put LPS Corrosion prevention spray in mine, spraying it
around inside as well as I could after priming with epoxy primer (which I
also sprayed inside as well as possible).
This brings up a good point to add to your annual condition inspection - to
grab and twist each horn to determine if they are rusted through internally.
It would be a pain in the butt to replace them once the airplane is flying,
but better to find it at inspection than in flight.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott
Knowlton
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 10:37 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Control horns
<flyingscott_k@hotmail.com>
I fabricated the elevator and rudder control horns over the past couple of
days to the plans. Fun work and a good test of my newly acquired gas
welding skills. I have a question for those of you who built them to the
plans. After zinc chromating them it occurred to me that there will be a
large area of unprotected metal inside the horn since the forward end that
attaches to the wooden spar of the control surface is open ("butterflied" if
you will to attach to the spar). What can be done to protect this bare
metal? I thought of spraying linseed oil or fluid film into the opening
and sloshing it around. I'm not keen on seeing corrosion on these horns
which are so visible on the completed aircraft (not to mention they are a
requirement for controlled flight!).
Regards to all Pietenpol builders and fliers out there.
Scott Knowlton
Burlington Ontario
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Control horns |
I sprayed zinc chromate inside and sloshed it around....
followed by my welder at work welding the metal tab on the piece. He was shocked
and amazed when the internal zinc chromate caught on fire and starting spewing
noxious gas at him.
I learned about welding/painting sequence from that one.
--------
Kevin "Axel" Purtee
NX899KP
Austin/Georgetown, TX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352491#352491
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Control horns |
Really?
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 16, 2011, at 8:05 PM, "kevinpurtee" <kevin.purtee@us.army.mil> wrote:
>
> I sprayed zinc chromate inside and sloshed it around....
>
> followed by my welder at work welding the metal tab on the piece. He was shocked
and amazed when the internal zinc chromate caught on fire and starting spewing
noxious gas at him.
>
> I learned about welding/painting sequence from that one.
>
> --------
> Kevin "Axel" Purtee
> NX899KP
> Austin/Georgetown, TX
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352491#352491
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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