Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Mon 09/19/11


Total Messages Posted: 39



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 03:51 AM - Southwest Ohio Regional Fly-in Sept. 25 (DaveG601XL)
     2. 04:27 AM - Re: Re: Shock Cord (helspersew@aol.com)
     3. 04:32 AM - Re: Control horns (helspersew@aol.com)
     4. 04:58 AM - Re: Re: Modified Seine Knot (Amsafetc)
     5. 05:41 AM - Re: Re: Modified Seine Knot (Charles Campbell)
     6. 05:42 AM - Re: Control horns (Scott Knowlton)
     7. 06:59 AM - Suspension Travel - FlyBaby style gear (steve@wotelectronics.com)
     8. 07:08 AM - Re: Re: Modified Seine Knot (helspersew@aol.com)
     9. 07:54 AM - Rib Stitching Videos (jeff wilson)
    10. 08:00 AM - Re: Suspension Travel - FlyBaby style gear (jeff wilson)
    11. 08:04 AM - Re: Suspension Travel - FlyBaby style gear (Charles Campbell)
    12. 08:48 AM - Re: Re: Modified Seine Knot (Jim Boyer)
    13. 09:19 AM - Re: Suspension Travel - FlyBaby style gear (Bill Church)
    14. 09:35 AM - Re: Re: Suspension Travel - FlyBaby style gear (Jack Phillips)
    15. 09:43 AM - Re: Re: Suspension Travel - FlyBaby style gear (steve@wotelectronics.com)
    16. 11:13 AM - Re: Control horns (kevinpurtee)
    17. 11:17 AM - Re: Southwest Ohio Regional Fly-in Sept. 25 (kevinpurtee)
    18. 11:27 AM - 2 Year Anniversary (kevinpurtee)
    19. 11:29 AM - Re: 2 Year Anniversary (kevinpurtee)
    20. 11:36 AM - Re: Re: Modified Seine Knot (Doug Dever)
    21. 12:14 PM - Re: 2 Year Anniversary (Jim Boyer)
    22. 12:28 PM - Re: Modified Seine Knot (Jim Boyer)
    23. 12:40 PM - Re: CG Question (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG FORSCOM)
    24. 12:49 PM - Re: 2 Year Anniversary (Bill Church)
    25. 01:12 PM - Re: Re: 2 Year Anniversary (gboothe5@comcast.net)
    26. 01:19 PM - Re: 2 Year Anniversary (kevinpurtee)
    27. 01:21 PM - Re: 2 Year Anniversary (kevinpurtee)
    28. 01:26 PM - Flitzer (Dave Abramson)
    29. 01:39 PM - Re: Re: 2 Year Anniversary (gboothe5@comcast.net)
    30. 01:42 PM - Re: Flitzer (kevinpurtee)
    31. 01:46 PM - Re: Flitzer (bender)
    32. 01:58 PM - Re: CG Question (dgaldrich)
    33. 02:40 PM - Re: 2 Year Anniversary (K5YAC)
    34. 03:10 PM - Tbh (Amsafetc)
    35. 03:58 PM - Re: Southwest Ohio Regional Fly-in Sept. 25 (shad bell)
    36. 04:24 PM - Re: Southwest Ohio Regional Fly-in Sept. 25 (Matthew VanDervort)
    37. 04:30 PM - Re: Southwest Ohio Regional Fly-in Sept. 25 (Matthew VanDervort)
    38. 04:57 PM - Re: Re: 2 Year Anniversary (Dan Yocum)
    39. 09:36 PM - Retractable sliding step (KM Heide CPO/FAAOP)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 03:51:06 AM PST US
    Subject: Southwest Ohio Regional Fly-in Sept. 25
    From: "DaveG601XL" <david.m.gallagher@ge.com>
    Grass roots fly-in and a nice grass strip just east of Cincinnati this coming Sunday, Sept 25. Free lunch! http://www.eaa174.org/#SWORFI -------- David Gallagher 601 XL/Jabiru 3300 First flight 7/24/08, Upgraded 3/19/10 Flew it to Oshkosh '09 &amp; '10 180+ hours and climbing! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352635#352635


    Message 2


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    Time: 04:27:54 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Shock Cord
    From: helspersew@aol.com
    Speaking of shock cord, I am up in Poplar Grove this weekend replacing mine . I need to add somes sort of "dams" onto the top of the axle, in order to keep the bungees from working their way too close to the wood legs and gett ing pinched. I was down to 50% worn through on one side, only after about 10 hours of operation! Yikes! Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. : Pietenpol-List: Re: Shock Cord m> While on the subject of bungee chord, I have a mate who is ordering a pile of it o im going to buy mine now. Im building the straight axle and am wondering what pprox length the chords need to be? Thank you in advance. Scotty -------- amworth, Australia uilding a Corvair Powered Pietenpol Air Camper www.scottyspietenpol.com Rudder, Vert stab, Elevators, Hor Stab and Ribs built...About to start uselage...Corvair engine at Roy's Garage waiting to be modified. ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352502#352502 -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -========================


    Message 3


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    Time: 04:32:38 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Control horns
    From: helspersew@aol.com
    Hi Scott, I actually cut small pieces, fit, and welded those little windows closed. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. I fabricated the elevator and rudder control horns over the past couple of days to the plans. Fun work and a good test of my newly acquired gas welding sk ills. I have a question for those of you who built them to the plans. After zinc chromating them it occurred to me that there will be a large area of unprot ected metal inside the horn since the forward end that attaches to the wooden spa r of the control surface is open ("butterflied" if you will to attach to the spa r). What can be done to protect this bare metal? I thought of spraying linsee d oil or fluid film into the opening and sloshing it around. I'm not keen on see ing corrosion on these horns which are so visible on the completed aircraft (no t to mention they are a requirement for controlled flight!). Regards to all Pietenpol builders and fliers out there. Scott Knowlton Burlington Ontario


    Message 4


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    Time: 04:58:54 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Modified Seine Knot
    From: Amsafetc <amsafetyc@aol.com>
    Yes Sent from my iPhone On Sep 18, 2011, at 4:43 PM, "dwilson" <marwilson@charter.net> wrote: > > During Oshkosh there is a wing jig available that is used to teach rib stitching. Would there be any interest in having such a jig available to learn how to tie these knots during Broadhead? > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352601#352601 > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 5


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    Time: 05:41:10 AM PST US
    From: "Charles Campbell" <cncampbell@windstream.net>
    Subject: Re: Modified Seine Knot
    I learned how to tie the knot from the Ray Stitts video. Covered the wing on a PA20/22 using his knot. I have forgotten how now, but still have the video and will re-educate myself when it comes time to ribstitch the Piet. Get yourself a video. C ----- Original Message ----- From: "dwilson" <marwilson@charter.net> Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2011 4:43 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Modified Seine Knot > > During Oshkosh there is a wing jig available that is used to teach rib > stitching. Would there be any interest in having such a jig available to > learn how to tie these knots during Broadhead? > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352601#352601 > > >


    Message 6


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    Time: 05:42:46 AM PST US
    From: "Scott Knowlton " <flyingscott_k@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Control horns
    Wow! Now there's some fine welding. I don't know if I'd have the dexterity or fine skills to do that yet but what a great idea. Thanks Dan Scott -----Original Message----- From: helspersew@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Control horns Hi Scott, I actually cut small pieces, fit, and welded those little windows closed. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. I fabricated the elevator and rudder control horns over the past couple of days to the plans. Fun work and a good test of my newly acquired gas welding skills. I have a question for those of you who built them to the plans. After zinc chromating them it occurred to me that there will be a large area of unprotected metal inside the horn since the forward end that attaches to the wooden spar of the control surface is open ("butterflied" if you will to attach to the spar). What can be done to protect this bare metal? I thought of spraying linseed oil or fluid film into the opening and sloshing it around. I'm not keen on seeing corrosion on these horns which are so visible on the completed aircraft (not to mention they are a requirement for controlled flight!). Regards to all Pietenpol builders and fliers out there. Scott Knowlton Burlington Ontario ========== -List Email Forum - enpol-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ========== p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - _blank>http://forums.matronics.com ========== p; - List Contribution Web Site - p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ==========


    Message 7


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    Time: 06:59:55 AM PST US
    From: steve@wotelectronics.com
    Subject: Suspension Travel - FlyBaby style gear
    A friend is looking at a Piet with a FlyBaby style gear, which has no suspension travel. My first inclination is that I don't like this, but I can't really say why...just because it is different I suppose. It seems to be working fine for the FlyBaby guys, so maybe it is OK. This plane has 800 tires that will provide some cushion when the tire pressure is right. What are everyone's thoughts on having no suspension travel other than tires? Are there any reasons this is bad? Thanks! Steve Ruse Norman, OK


    Message 8


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    Time: 07:08:16 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Modified Seine Knot
    From: helspersew@aol.com
    Maybe I'm slow, but it took me a couple hours to catch on to that knot, but as it turns out rib stitching was very enjoyable and therapeutic. Only pro blem I had was when I stood on the string and ripped the fabric a couple of times. oops. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Charles Campbell <cncampbell@windstream.net> Sent: Mon, Sep 19, 2011 7:41 am Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Modified Seine Knot ream.net> I learned how to tie the knot from the Ray Stitts video. Covered the wing n a PA20/22 using his knot. I have forgotten how now, but still have the ideo and will re-educate myself when it comes time to ribstitch the Piet. et yourself a video. C ----- Original Message ----- rom: "dwilson" <marwilson@charter.net> o: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> ent: Sunday, September 18, 2011 4:43 PM ubject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Modified Seine Knot During Oshkosh there is a wing jig available that is used to teach rib stitching. Would there be any interest in having such a jig available to learn how to tie these knots during Broadhead? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352601#352601 -======================== -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -========================


    Message 9


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    Time: 07:54:03 AM PST US
    From: jeff wilson <jlwilsonnn@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Rib Stitching Videos
    The Superflite Knot http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rneWclUSONw - The Modified Siene Knot http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3nnDg-6CBs - -The Staggerwing Knot http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OsIBk_RWQY - The Staggerwing Knot Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fw3rrsuma3c&feature=related - Taping with the Stewart Systems http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgXd2-FXtrM&feature=related - Taping part 2 with Stewart http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XdBFsEjuus&feature=related - - - Aero-TV: Flight Tip of the Week - Rib Stitching Antique Restorations http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYTSYaP5zS8&feature=related - Aircraft Manufacturing 1910 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYTSYaP5zS8&feature=related


    Message 10


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    Time: 08:00:26 AM PST US
    From: jeff wilson <jlwilsonnn@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Suspension Travel - FlyBaby style gear
    I have 3 friends with Flybabys wieghing between 650 and 750 and they are al l happy with the suspension. They all have the big fat tires with about 10 lbs pressure. --- On Mon, 9/19/11, steve@wotelectronics.com <steve@wotelectronics.com> wr ote: From: steve@wotelectronics.com <steve@wotelectronics.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Suspension Travel - FlyBaby style gear A friend is looking at a Piet with a FlyBaby style gear, which has no suspe nsion travel.- My first inclination is that I don't like this, but I can' t really say why...just because it is different I suppose.- It seems to b e working fine for the FlyBaby guys, so maybe it is OK.- This plane has 8 00 tires that will provide some cushion when the tire pressure is right. What are everyone's thoughts on having no suspension travel other than tire s?- Are there any reasons this is bad? Thanks! Steve Ruse Norman, OK le, List Admin.


    Message 11


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    Time: 08:04:04 AM PST US
    From: "Charles Campbell" <cncampbell@windstream.net>
    Subject: Re: Suspension Travel - FlyBaby style gear
    Depends on how smoothly you can land and how smooth the landing surface is. Jack Phillips says he had a cub and covered the bungees with tape and never noticed that the tape had moved, indicating that the bungees had never moved. I'm going to put a "no suspension travel" wooden gear on my Piet similar to the one for sale (green and white) recently shown on the list. C ----- Original Message ----- From: <steve@wotelectronics.com> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 9:57 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Suspension Travel - FlyBaby style gear > > A friend is looking at a Piet with a FlyBaby style gear, which has no > suspension travel. My first inclination is that I don't like this, but I > can't really say why...just because it is different I suppose. It seems > to be working fine for the FlyBaby guys, so maybe it is OK. This plane > has 800 tires that will provide some cushion when the tire pressure is > right. > > What are everyone's thoughts on having no suspension travel other than > tires? Are there any reasons this is bad? > > Thanks! > > Steve Ruse > Norman, OK > > >


    Message 12


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    Time: 08:48:15 AM PST US
    From: Jim Boyer <boyerjrb@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Modified Seine Knot
    Yes Dan, Jim B.


    Message 13


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    Time: 09:19:54 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Suspension Travel - FlyBaby style gear
    From: "Bill Church" <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
    A couple of useless comments that I probably should just keep to myself, but for some reason, I don't seem to be able to: 1. @ Steve: 800 tires should provide quite a cushion. Most aircraft only have 2 or 3, so the extra 797 tires should help spread the load - as you said, provided the tire pressure is right. " This plane has 800 tires that will provide some cushion when the tire pressure is right." 2. @ Jeff: You have some big friends. Funny that they would all have Flybabys. " I have 3 friends with Flybabys wieghing between 650 and 750..." BC do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352667#352667


    Message 14


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    Time: 09:35:59 AM PST US
    From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: Suspension Travel - FlyBaby style gear
    My, my. Isn't Bill in a feisty mood today? Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 12:17 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Suspension Travel - FlyBaby style gear A couple of useless comments that I probably should just keep to myself, but for some reason, I don't seem to be able to: 1. @ Steve: 800 tires should provide quite a cushion. Most aircraft only have 2 or 3, so the extra 797 tires should help spread the load - as you said, provided the tire pressure is right. " This plane has 800 tires that will provide some cushion when the tire pressure is right." 2. @ Jeff: You have some big friends. Funny that they would all have Flybabys. " I have 3 friends with Flybabys wieghing between 650 and 750..." BC do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352667#352667


    Message 15


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    Time: 09:43:49 AM PST US
    From: steve@wotelectronics.com
    Subject: Re: Suspension Travel - FlyBaby style gear
    Bill, Thanks for your comments. These are exactly why I subscribe to this list. :D I'll try to send pics of the Piet with 800 wheels as soon as I can find some. Steve On Mon, 19 Sep 2011 09:17:22 -0700, Bill Church wrote: > <billspiet@sympatico.ca> > > A couple of useless comments that I probably should just keep to > myself, but for some reason, I don't seem to be able to: > > 1. @ Steve: 800 tires should provide quite a cushion. Most aircraft > only have 2 or 3, so the extra 797 tires should help spread the load > - > as you said, provided the tire pressure is right. > " This plane has 800 tires that will provide some cushion when the > tire pressure is right." > > > 2. @ Jeff: You have some big friends. Funny that they would all have > Flybabys. > " I have 3 friends with Flybabys wieghing between 650 and 750..." > > BC > > do not archive > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352667#352667 > >


    Message 16


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    Time: 11:13:54 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Control horns
    From: "kevinpurtee" <kevin.purtee@us.army.mil>
    Yes, John, really. It was quiet funny. Of course, given his chronic intake of cigarette smoke for the past 40 years, at the rate of approximately one pack per day, the 3 second surprise from applying heat to that control horn is the least of his worries. He's in spectacular shape, BTW. In better condition than the vast majority of participants on this list. Works hard, plays hard and has a ball. He's in his late 50s or early 60s at this point. Point is: weld before you paint. A simple point, easy mistake, and easy to avoid. You know what us safety pro's say: safety sucks, press your luck. do not archive -------- Kevin &quot;Axel&quot; Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352673#352673


    Message 17


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    Time: 11:17:02 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Southwest Ohio Regional Fly-in Sept. 25
    From: "kevinpurtee" <kevin.purtee@us.army.mil>
    And for those of you in south/central Texas: Under the Wire fly-in at Louise, TX. Mostly Stearmans but I think they'll let us in. We'll be there Saturday. do not archive -------- Kevin &quot;Axel&quot; Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352674#352674


    Message 18


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    Time: 11:27:34 AM PST US
    Subject: 2 Year Anniversary
    From: "kevinpurtee" <kevin.purtee@us.army.mil>
    Flew FBG 2 years ago today. We're up to 250 hours. Given that I've been out of town or separated from the plane for the better part of a year, I'm real pleased with that number. I'm replacing the landing gear tires. They're worn out:). do not archive -------- Kevin &quot;Axel&quot; Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352675#352675


    Message 19


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    Time: 11:29:23 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: 2 Year Anniversary
    From: "kevinpurtee" <kevin.purtee@us.army.mil>
    Oh, and I'm celebrating tonight by building flitzer ribs. Life is good! do not archive -------- Kevin &quot;Axel&quot; Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352676#352676


    Message 20


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    Time: 11:36:45 AM PST US
    From: Doug Dever <helio400@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Modified Seine Knot
    Dan,- Don't feel bad.- My dad and I recovered-a half-dozen or so. - Every time we had to get out the Airframe hanbook.- Go figure.=0A=0A =0AFrom: "helspersew@aol.com" <helspersew@aol.com>=0ATo: pietenpol-list@mat ronics.com=0ASent: Monday, September 19, 2011 10:05 AM=0ASubject: Re: Piete npol-List: Re: Modified Seine Knot=0A=0A=0AMaybe I'm slow, but it took me a couple hours to catch on to that knot, but as it turns out rib stitching w as very enjoyable and therapeutic. Only problem I had was when I stood on t he string and ripped the fabric a couple of times. oops.=0A=0ADan Helsper =0APoplar Grove, IL.--- do not archive=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A-----Original Me ssage-----=0AFrom: Charles Campbell <cncampbell@windstream.net>=0ATo: piete npol-list <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>=0ASent: Mon, Sep 19, 2011 7:41 am =0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Modified Seine Knot=0A=0A=0A--> Pietenp ol-List message posted by: "Charles Campbell" <cncampbell@windstream.net> I learned how to tie the knot from the Ray Stitts video. Covered the wing on a PA20/22 using his knot. I have forgotten how now, but stil l have the video and will re-educate myself when it comes time to ribs titch the Piet. Get yourself a video. C----- Original Message - ---- From: "dwilson" <marwilson@charter.net>To: <pietenpol-list@mat ronics.com>Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2011 4:43 PMSubject: Pietenpol -List: Re: Modified Seine Knot> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "dwilson" <marwilson@charter.net>>> During Oshkosh there is a win g jig available that is used to teach rib > stitching. Would there be any interest in having such a jig available to > learn how to tie thes e knots during Broadhead?>>>>> Read this topic online here: >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352601#352601 >> >>>>>>>>> " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listp://fo =============


    Message 21


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    Time: 12:14:00 PM PST US
    From: Jim Boyer <boyerjrb@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: 2 Year Anniversary
    Congratulations Kevin on 250 hours on FBG. I know you were in Arizona for quite awhile so you really did fly her alot when you were home. So how many hours estimated on her before Brodhead next July? cheers, Jim B.


    Message 22


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    Time: 12:28:54 PM PST US
    From: Jim Boyer <boyerjrb@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Modified Seine Knot
    So what was the problem causing the battery to lose charge? Is Ryan still in Sebastopol? I thought he was moving up to Seattle. Cheers, Jim B.


    Message 23


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    Time: 12:40:05 PM PST US
    From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG FORSCOM" <steven.d.dortch@us.army.mil>
    Subject: Re: CG Question
    OK Wayne,I was right. But, I was not smart enough to argue my point of view. So I got me a Big Gun. Dr Dave Rogers is on the Beechcraft Bonanza list and has a good track record of teaching us Luddites about aerodynamics. He knows a little about this since he teaches aerodynamics at a small school in Annapolis, Maryland, that school has as something to do with ships. Some of their graduates fly off of very short (though paved) moving airstrips. Dave is able to take some highfalutin science talk and dumb it down enough so that even a Marine can understand or better an Army Grunt, (BTW a blade antenna, mounted properly is much more aerodynamic than a rod antenna. He has me convinced that about the only thing aerodynamically worse than a round pole is maybe a square block) Below is the original message I sent to him: Dr. Dave, in a discussion with a fellow pilot. I made the following statement: "In layman's terms, the reason a plane gets more "Twitchy" with an aft CG is the shortened distance between the CG (moved aft) and the elevator. Move the CG forward and the plane becomes more stable. When the CG is too far forward, the plane becomes so stable that the required response may be too slow or not possible. IE too far forward a CG and you can't get a good flare when required." The other pilot said: "I thought the reason for the increased sensitivity was due to the Center of Gravity becoming closer to the wing's Center of Pressure." Which is correct? Or is it like Bernoullis sucking or Coandas blowing. Luckily the end effect is the same. I think I got my idea from the Gleim Pilot handbook recently studied for an FAA test. Blue Skies, Steve D HIS ANSWER: G'day Steve, You are. On 9/16/2011 3:06 PM, Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG FORSCOM wrote: >Dr. Dave, in a discussion with a fellow pilot. I made the following statement: > >"In layman's terms, the reason a plane gets more "Twitchy" with an aft CG is the shortened >distance between the CG (moved aft) and the elevator. Move the CG forward and the plane >becomes more stable. When the CG is too far forward, the plane becomes so stable that the >required response may be too slow or not possible. IE too far forward a CG and you can't get >a good flare when required." This is a reasonable layman's description. Technically, there is a point as the CG moves aft at which the stability becomes neutral. That point is called the neutral point (stick fixed, stick free, with/without power as the case my be). If the CG is aft of the neutral point, then the aircraft is unstable. When the CG is too far forward a number of things may occur examples are: (a) there is not enough elevator power to flare the aircraft for a full stall landing; (b) the stick force is too large; (c) the stick force gradient is too large. There is a small discussion of the forward CG question on the Technical Flying website. > >The other pilot said: "I thought the reason for the increased sensitivity was due to the >Center of Gravity becoming closer to the wing's Center of Pressure." This is wrong. Technically this is associated with the balance of the aircraft and not the stability. Simply put, an aircraft must be both balanced and stable (modern tactical fighters are an exception to the stability requirement). In a conventional configuration, i.e., with a horizontal tail, it is balance that requires the horizontal tail with typically a down force on the tail. It is the stability requirement that limits the aft movement of the CG. Control requirements determine the forward CG limit. Dave Rogers E33A for sale BEFORE I COULD GLOAT HE ANSWERED ANOTHER BONANZA OWNERS COMMENT, BELOW IS HIS EDITED COMMENT: A reasonable simplified explanation. Improved: 1. Stability (tendency for the aircraft to return to the trimmed speed when displaced a small amount from the initial trimmed speed.) 2. Sensitivity to controls (the tendency for the pitch to change a lot, vs a little, with a given movement of the yoke). Other Pilot comment: 3. Moving the CG forward tends to make the aircraft more stable. If the CG is moved too far forward control issues result, e.g. stick force becomes too large. DAVE'S Answer: Moving the CG toward the elevator makes the aircraft less stable and makes it more sensitive to elevator inputs. for the same elevator force a shortened lever are would result in LESS moment to pitch the aircraft. Dave Rogers E33A for sale So I was right, but I sure did not understand why until he told me why. Blue Skies, Steve D His WEBSITE (listed Below) has Beech Bonanza centered articles under Technical Flying, but there is a lot of generic aviation information. I do not do math in public and it makes my ears bleed if I don't understand it, I prefer to just believe. Dr Rogers signature block below: David F. Rogers, PhD, ATP Professor of Aerospace Engineering (Emeritus) Annapolis, MD Rogers Aerospace Engineering & Consulting Annapolis, MD Over 50 years of experience www.nar-associates.com 410 271 1968 (c)


    Message 24


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    Time: 12:49:13 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: 2 Year Anniversary
    From: "Bill Church" <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
    Wow. That is quite a few hours of Pietenpol flying time for two years - definitely above average - but when you take into consideration the fact that you only had access to the plane for about half of the two years, that's really something. And did you read that, Gary? Kevin says he will be building ribs tonight... that's ribs, with an 's'... as in plural, as in more than one. What a show-off. Bill C. do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352689#352689


    Message 25


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    Time: 01:12:27 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: 2 Year Anniversary
    From: gboothe5@comcast.net
    KP's one of those super achievers...probably turned in his homework early in pre-school! Gary Do not archive ------Original Message------ From: Bill Church Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: 2 Year Anniversary Sent: Sep 19, 2011 12:46 PM Wow. That is quite a few hours of Pietenpol flying time for two years - definitely above average - but when you take into consideration the fact that you only had access to the plane for about half of the two years, that's really something. And did you read that, Gary? Kevin says he will be building ribs tonight... that's ribs, with an 's'... as in plural, as in more than one. What a show-off. Bill C. do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352689#352689 Sent on the Sprint Now Network from my BlackBerry


    Message 26


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    Time: 01:19:55 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: 2 Year Anniversary
    From: "kevinpurtee" <kevin.purtee@us.army.mil>
    @Jim - Dunno how much we'll fly before Brodhead. Depends on the peace dividend. If there's enough peace we'll fly our butts numb and try for Brodhead again in '12. If there's not enough peace we'll see you guys in '13. :) @Bill - Helps we're in Texas. We get to fly year-round, though it does get "cold" (sweater weather for you) for a few weeks. Ya know, Gary's thinking about a Flitzer project himself. With two wings I figure it'll be 70-80 years before he can catch me on that one. do not archive -------- Kevin &quot;Axel&quot; Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352693#352693


    Message 27


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    Time: 01:21:19 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: 2 Year Anniversary
    From: "kevinpurtee" <kevin.purtee@us.army.mil>
    @Gary - I smoked a whole lotta dope in pre-school. I don't even remember it, dude! do not archive -------- Kevin &quot;Axel&quot; Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352694#352694


    Message 28


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    Time: 01:26:53 PM PST US
    From: "Dave Abramson" <davea@symbolicdisplays.com>
    Subject: Flitzer
    Hey Kevin, I was looking at a flitzer a couple years ago!!!! But, I am still building my Pietenpol.... Dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of kevinpurtee Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 11:27 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: 2 Year Anniversary <kevin.purtee@us.army.mil> Oh, and I'm celebrating tonight by building flitzer ribs. Life is good! do not archive -------- Kevin &quot;Axel&quot; Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352676#352676


    Message 29


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    Time: 01:39:58 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: 2 Year Anniversary
    From: gboothe5@comcast.net
    I learned my lesson...ribs are nothing to be asceered of... Do not archive ------Original Message------ From: Kevin Purtee Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: 2 Year Anniversary Sent: Sep 19, 2011 1:17 PM @Jim - Dunno how much we'll fly before Brodhead. Depends on the peace dividend. If there's enough peace we'll fly our butts numb and try for Brodhead again in '12. If there's not enough peace we'll see you guys in '13. :) @Bill - Helps we're in Texas. We get to fly year-round, though it does get "cold" (sweater weather for you) for a few weeks. Ya know, Gary's thinking about a Flitzer project himself. With two wings I figure it'll be 70-80 years before he can catch me on that one. do not archive -------- Kevin &quot;Axel&quot; Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352693#352693 Sent on the Sprint Now Network from my BlackBerry


    Message 30


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    Time: 01:42:03 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Flitzer
    From: "kevinpurtee" <kevin.purtee@us.army.mil>
    Cute, aren't they? I went through the Fly-Baby and the Corby Starlet before I found the Flitzer. It really caught me emotionally. I've learned that if I'm going to spend 16 years on something I'd better love it pretty intensely. I'll say this: the quicker you finish your Piet the quicker you can start on your Flitzer. I personally got distracted by a couple of other projects during the Piet and all they did was add time to, and take resources away from, the real goal: the Pietenpol. do not archive -------- Kevin &quot;Axel&quot; Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352699#352699


    Message 31


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    Time: 01:46:56 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Flitzer
    From: "bender" <jfaith@solairusaviation.com>
    they are beautiful planes.... great lines and most of all..wood i've wanted another bipe every since i sold my ragwing special. the Flitzer just looks like it should... right out of ww1.. or waldo pepper jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352701#352701


    Message 32


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    Time: 01:58:14 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: CG Question
    From: "dgaldrich" <dgaldrich@embarqmail.com>
    I believe that the second answer is correct for 2 reasons. 1. Let's say that the distance from the cg to the elevator is 100 inches. The recommended cg range is 12 to 20 inches. That's a maximum difference of 8% in the "lever arm" from max forward to max aft. Not likely to make a distinguishable difference. 2. If the cg moves aft of the center of lift, the aircraft becomes unstable, not unlike throwing an arrow backwards. Build a paper airplane and put paper clips on the tail and see how well it flies if you want a very simple demo. In order to achieve extremes in maneuverability, military fighters F-16 and after deliberately do just that. They then must use computer control to keep the pointy end first since human reflexes are incapable of reacting fast and accurately enough. If I recall correctly, the F-16 has two primary and one battery backup flight control computers and if they all fail, a nylon approach is recommended and probably mandatory. There's also a synapse that fires that says the center of lift on a wing is not static and that it changes with angle of attack as airspeed and g loading change.. That means that the designer must insure that the most forward center of lift must remain aft of the most aft cg. Gotta find me a Holiday Inn Select... Dave do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352702#352702


    Message 33


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    Time: 02:40:20 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: 2 Year Anniversary
    From: "K5YAC" <hangar10@cox.net>
    Way to go Kevin... that is good stuff. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352706#352706


    Message 34


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    Time: 03:10:06 PM PST US
    Subject: Tbh
    From: Amsafetc <amsafetyc@aol.com>
    Congrats on the 2 yr anniversary John Sent from my iPhone


    Message 35


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    Time: 03:58:13 PM PST US
    From: shad bell <aviatorbell@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Southwest Ohio Regional Fly-in Sept. 25
    I think I am gonna try to make this one, if the weather does not change my mind.- Who else here is going to fly in? - Shad


    Message 36


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    Time: 04:24:54 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Southwest Ohio Regional Fly-in Sept. 25
    From: Matthew VanDervort <matthew.vandervort@gmail.com>
    I plan on working on the T-Craft at barnett's 1OA3, that day, if I get eve rything going I might swing down, or if ya happen to fly over Barnett's stop in and say hello! Can't miss the bright yellow Taylorcraft 513-668-2103, I'll probly be there most of the day Sent from my iPhone On Sep 19, 2011, at 6:55 PM, shad bell <aviatorbell@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > I think I am gonna try to make this one, if the weather does not change my mind. Who else here is going to fly in? > > Shad > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= >


    Message 37


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    Time: 04:30:17 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Southwest Ohio Regional Fly-in Sept. 25
    From: Matthew VanDervort <matthew.vandervort@gmail.com>
    Disregard, I can't read a calendar, I'll be out on the 24th.... But there a re usually people out there for Sunday morning early afternoon Sent from my iPhone On Sep 19, 2011, at 6:55 PM, shad bell <aviatorbell@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > I think I am gonna try to make this one, if the weather does not change my mind. Who else here is going to fly in? > > Shad > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= >


    Message 38


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    Time: 04:57:59 PM PST US
    From: Dan Yocum <yocum137@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: 2 Year Anniversary
    Have I told you lately that you rock? You rock! Do not archive -- Dan Yocum yocum137@gmail.com "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." On Sep 19, 2011, at 1:27 PM, "kevinpurtee" <kevin.purtee@us.army.mil> wrote: > > Oh, and I'm celebrating tonight by building flitzer ribs. > > Life is good! > > do not archive > > -------- > Kevin &quot;Axel&quot; Purtee > NX899KP > Austin/Georgetown, TX > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352676#352676 > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 39


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    Time: 09:36:24 PM PST US
    From: KM Heide CPO/FAAOP <kmheidecpo@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Retractable sliding step
    Members: Here are some photos I made of my step which I created last year. The key here is light wall tubing slid inside another tube. The buttons are called step buttons found in aluminum canes or crutches. They will allow for my step to slide out and lock into the correct 6" length. Then push the button in and they slide back into the sleeve. I placed this set-up as as far back as I could under my seat. Used small pieces of ash bolted through my 1/4" thick floor! So now... flame away as I added MORE weight to the rear of the fuse! I will have the nicest easy to get into..outside control horned..looking Pietenpol "brick" in the country! However, I am keeping it to plans! KMHeide




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