---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 09/27/11: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:36 AM - Re: Wooden Lift Struts (Update) (jacktextor) 2. 04:01 AM - Re: Re: Here I am...another new guy (Jack Phillips) 3. 04:54 AM - Re: Here I am...another new guy (Jerry Dotson) 4. 05:36 AM - Re: Mystery Engine - McCulloch? (Jerry Dotson) 5. 06:07 AM - Re: Re: Here I am...another new guy (helspersew@aol.com) 6. 06:15 AM - Re: Here I am...another new guy (TOM STINEMETZE) 7. 08:47 AM - Re: Here I am...another new guy (Michael Perez) 8. 10:19 AM - Re: Here I am...another new guy (Pocono John) 9. 10:20 AM - Re: Here I am...another new guy (K5YAC) 10. 10:28 AM - Re: Here I am...another new guy (Pocono John) 11. 12:04 PM - Re: Here I am...another new guy (dgaldrich) 12. 12:15 PM - Re: Here I am...another new guy (K5YAC) 13. 12:41 PM - Re: Re: Here I am...another new guy (Ben Charvet) 14. 03:06 PM - Miter Joints on ribs (Kyle85) 15. 03:13 PM - Re: Miter Joints on ribs (Doug Dever) 16. 04:15 PM - Re: Miter Joints on ribs (Kyle85) 17. 07:55 PM - Re: Miter Joints on ribs (K5YAC) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:36:04 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts (Update) From: "jacktextor" Mark, very nice work! Thanks for sharing the operation. Jack DSM -------- Jack Textor Des Moines, IA www.textors.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353316#353316 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:01:27 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Here I am...another new guy Hi John, The long fuselage plans are in the supplemental plans package from the Pietenpol family, so you should have it, along with the "short" fuselage in the Improved (1933) Air Camper plans. The shortest fuselage is in the 1932 Flying and Glider Manual plans. The one-piece wing is slightly lighter, but is more difficult to handle, even if you have the room for it in your shop, which it sounds like you do not. The one-piece wing is 29' long and requires a space of at least 12' x 32' to be able to safely turn it over and move around it. Even with enough space, it is troublesome to move it and handle it (you'll be surprised how often it must be flipped over during the covering and painting process). The three piece wing also offers more flexibility in use of the centersection for baggage storage or fuel. The straight axle wooden gear is considerably stronger and more rugged than the split axle gear, with one important exception: The axle itself is under quite a bit of stress and needs to be made of fairly heavy wall tubing, which along with the weight of the wire wheels, makes this gear considerably heavier than the split axle design. To minimize the stress on the axle, keep the wheels as close to the undercarriage as possible. The use of brakes adds complexity to this undercarriage design and also tends to increase stress in the axle due to extending the wheels further from the bungees which are resisting the wheel loads. As for being rough on the plane, either gear as designed provide plenty of shock absorption. If I were to build mine over, I would use the split axle gear with wire wheels, but would use die springs instead of bungees. The bungees are just a pain in the butt to change, and need to be replaced about every 2 - 3 years. One other suggestion - when you send your first order to Aircraft Spruce, buy their "Bargain Bag of Spruce" for $37.50 (Yikes - when I was building mine, it was $15). There are a lot of pieces of my airplane that were made from pieces of spruce I got from their bargain bag. You'll be surprised how much of it you will use. The best suggestion I have is for you to plan now to go to Brodhead next July to see all the Pietenpols there. No two are alike, and every one of their builders had to answer the same questions you are now asking yourself. It's interesting to see how many different solutions to the same problem you can find. Good luck, Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pocono John Sent: Monday, September 26, 2011 9:35 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Here I am...another new guy Thank you everyone for the warm welcome and your ideas. I take constructive criticism well, so feel free to speak your mind. As far as tools, I wanted to research and see what is out there and learn the language. I'll definitely hold off buying until I need it, but at least the research is done and I have a model number in mind. The funny thing is now when I'm out with my wife, I park so we have to go through the tool department. My garage has 22' X 19' of working space I can use. It has two doors, 7' high. Here are my responses to some of your questions/comments: JACK I do have the plan's (plus supplements, the booklet...everything I could order). I want the long fuselage. Are the plans I have for long? How can I tell? I prefer a one piece wing. If I can put the wing together in warm weather, then bring it and the fuselage to a final assembly location, that should work. Are there things I should consider besides the space saving convenience of three wing sections? I prefer the straight axle wooden gear (looks nice), but wondering if it's rough on the plane. Split axle appears to provide more cushion. Not sure what I'll do. GARY You're sure good at utilizing your garage space. I'm impressed! MARK Thanks. I plan to cut in the garage and since we're getting into cold weather, I'll assemble each rib in the house and since there's no rush, I'll use one of the techniques from websites I've seen to clamp gussets. I probably am thinking too much, but I want to have the layout established. Thanks for the Craigs list idea. Thanks for the photos of your work bench.. DAVE Flew at Bar Harbor? CLE Chief? KEN We have so many digital cameras here, and all junk. I sure miss the days of 35mm. I'm going to try to find something that takes good photos. I tried a camera tonight; took some test photos of what's left of my old hobby room. BILL Yes, I'm starting from scratch with tools. I'm amazed at how many things I've built with just some basics: Circular and jig saw and my trusty variable speed/reversible drill. You wrote "As far as the workbench goes, I'm not sure what you're talking about - you plan to use a 4' x 8' floor as your workbench, with a 2 foot deep cutout on one side, and mount your tools on the workbench?"...what I meant was I thought that would serve as an area to place tools or mount a vise (odds and ends?). For ribs and fuselage, I'll build a table specifically for that such as the one EAA 100 designed. I may still build the Tony Bingelis 30" X 30" tool table. I guess I'll see what happens. TOM Thanks for the hobby miter box suggestion. I'm attaching a couple of photos to try this out and see if the camera is a piece of junk like my others. This is what remains of my hobby room in which I built model rockets. I can either chuck it, or use it as an area to put tools or do miscellaneous work; still thinking. YIKES! I'm looking at the preview and looks like I'm going to have to buy another camera. Oh well! OK, not going to think too much. I'll get some milled wood, some from Wicks and Spruce and compare them. Meanwhile, I'll build the rib jig (as soon as I get the garage ready). ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:54:50 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Here I am...another new guy From: "Jerry Dotson" John, You need to start building your rib jig NOW. Order some 1/4 X 1/2 spruce capstrip,some 1/16 plywood and T-88 epoxy and get started. The details will fall into place. You have a jigsaw so with a little time you can have a Piet rib to show us. What Jack P said. I built the one piece wing and have a 40 X 50 hangar. It is 32.5 feet. I just finished covering it. Without a fancy jig to hold it you will need 4 people total to turn it over safely. Dan Helsper built the fancy jig. I did not. I have turned it 3 times so far. Now the finishing (painting and sanding starts) and turning starts. I figure to turn it at least 4 more times. I am fortunate to have family and friends that can come over after work to help. -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 now covering 21" wheels Lycoming O-235 Jay Anderson CloudCars prop Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353318#353318 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/a72_210.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/a71_126.jpg ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:54 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Mystery Engine - McCulloch? From: "Jerry Dotson" Look at this one. http://www.pimaair.org/collection-detail.php?cid=319 -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 now covering 21" wheels Lycoming O-235 Jay Anderson CloudCars prop Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353319#353319 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:49 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Here I am...another new guy From: helspersew@aol.com I prefer a one piece wing. If I can put the wing together in warm weather, then ring it and the fuselage to a final assembly location, that should work. Ar e here things I should consider besides the space saving convenience of three ing sections? With the one-piece wing, you will almost always need help turning it over d uring the building process. It is difficult to paint, because there are ver y few places to grab on while turning. Also, If you ever needed to move the airplane with a truck or trailer it be a very long truck or trailer. But b eing a purist, I had no choice but to do it. Dan Helsper Puryear, TN -----Original Message----- From: Pocono John Sent: Mon, Sep 26, 2011 8:38 pm Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Here I am...another new guy ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:15:52 AM PST US From: "TOM STINEMETZE" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Here I am...another new guy John: Just curious but what part of the build requires a snow blower? Stinemetze do not archive >>> "Pocono John" 9/26/2011 8:34 PM >>> I'm attaching a couple of photos to try this out and see if the camera is a piece of junk like my others. This is what remains of my hobby room in which I built model rockets. I can either chuck it, or use it as an area to put tools or do miscellaneous work; still thinking. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:51 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Here I am...another new guy Hello John and welcome. I see that you have already received many replies to your questions and pictures as well. Rather then repeat all that, I just wanted to welcome you personally. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:19:04 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Here I am...another new guy From: "Pocono John" Thank you Michael. I'll wrap this up with a final comment. I wish I could pick out wood since there's a place two hours away where I could load up on spruce and plywood. Here is their page: http://www.condonlumber.net/index.htm Since I'm in no rush to fall out of the sky, I guess I'll have order from Wicks and/or AS. If AC 43.13 had photos of what's good and what's not, maybe I'd take a drive and check it out. Oh well! Thanks again for all the advice. I'll start a new post when I have questions (later today probably). Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353327#353327 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:20:50 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Here I am...another new guy From: "K5YAC" It does... right there in chapter 1. Pocono John wrote: > If AC 43.13 had photos of what's good and what's not, maybe I'd take a drive and check it out. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353328#353328 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:59 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Here I am...another new guy From: "Pocono John" Not sure why my book has no photos. I went all through Chapter One and nothing. Page 1-3 has descriptions of what is unacceptable, but that's it. Maybe I can search the web for images. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353329#353329 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:15 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Here I am...another new guy From: "dgaldrich" All it takes to grade wood is a decent ruler and a Mk I Calibrated Eyeball. Well over 90% of sitka spruce will meet the "slope/straightness" requirements, especially in the longer rough lengths. The ruler will tell you if the growth ring specification is met. The other issue is defects -- pitch pockets, pin knots and so on are pretty easy to see and can be worked around in the initial milling. What may NOT be obvious is issues caused by mishandling -- crushed pieces and so on. One of the members of this board got a questionable spar from AS&S that they reluctantly replaced because it had been mishandled. A careful inspection checking for abrupt changes of direction looking along the long edges will give a clue. It might be worth a 2 hour drive to save on the shipping costs, especially for the spar and longeron sized pieces that have to go by truck. I'm in Belfast, ME, 30 NM south from BHB, as the crow flies. Dave Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353335#353335 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:15:28 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Here I am...another new guy From: "K5YAC" dgaldrich wrote: > One of the members of this board got a questionable spar from AS&S that they reluctantly replaced because it had been mishandled. > > Dave They weren't THAT reluctant. Once the right people were made aware of the situation they were fairly prompt in taking care of things. Just wanted to be clear since I think it was my spar you were speaking of. It took them about 2 days to work it up the chain, review the evidence with their people and resolve the matter. Other than the spar, which could have been a big deal, I've always got good products and service from AS&S. The moral of the story... regardless of the source, inspect your materials closely and buy from an outfit that will stand behind their product. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353337#353337 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:41:51 PM PST US From: Ben Charvet Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Here I am...another new guy My Piet was built of Douglas Fir bought locally and carefully graded by me personally. 95 hours and it hasn't fallen out of the sky yet! Ben On 9/27/2011 1:16 PM, Pocono John wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Pocono John" > > Thank you Michael. I'll wrap this up with a final comment. > > I wish I could pick out wood since there's a place two hours away where I could load up on spruce and plywood. Here is their page: > > http://www.condonlumber.net/index.htm > > Since I'm in no rush to fall out of the sky, I guess I'll have order from Wicks and/or AS. If AC 43.13 had photos of what's good and what's not, maybe I'd take a drive and check it out. Oh well! > > Thanks again for all the advice. I'll start a new post when I have questions (later today probably). > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353327#353327 > > -- Ben Charvet, PharmD Staff Pharmacist Parrish Medical center ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:06:47 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Miter Joints on ribs From: "Kyle85" Hey Guys, I am new builder here and I just had a question regarding my ribs. Has Anyone NOT cut miter joints for ribs and just cut to length and glued the gussets. I really just want to make sure I am not wasting the precious time I do have. I have a three year old, a month old baby, a wife, and a full time job w/ OT. The only time I have to build is 4 AM to 6:30 AM before work. Not trying to be hasty here, I just want to build a safe airplane in a somewhat timely and efficient manner. Thanks in advance! -Kyle Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353359#353359 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:13:46 PM PST US From: Doug Dever Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Miter Joints on ribs Tony Bingelis says either way is acceptable. I'm mitering mine. It just m akes me feel better:) Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Miter Joints on ribs > From: boschkyle@hotmail.com > Date: Tue=2C 27 Sep 2011 15:04:26 -0700 > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > > Hey Guys=2C I am new builder here and I just had a question regarding my ribs. > Has Anyone NOT cut miter joints for ribs and just cut to length and glued the gussets. I really just want to make sure I am not wasting the precious time I do have. I have a three year old=2C a month old baby=2C a wife=2C a nd a full time job w/ OT. The only time I have to build is 4 AM to 6:30 AM before work. Not trying to be hasty here=2C I just want to build a safe air plane in a somewhat timely and efficient manner. Thanks in advance! > -Kyle > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353359#353359 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:15:16 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Miter Joints on ribs From: "Kyle85" Yeah I hear ya Doug, my conscience is already getting the better of me. I will probably Just continue with the miter cuts and feel better about myself too :p Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353364#353364 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/2011_09_25_08_56_37_736_998.jpg ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:28 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Miter Joints on ribs From: "K5YAC" Yep, that's the way. I found it easiest to make a nice fitting set of master parts and duplicate 32 times for each. Much more efficient than walking back and forth to the band saw and disc sander for each rib. These aren't all my parts, but you get the idea. Same goes for the gussets. Regardless of the style you choose to make, make them all and press on. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353378#353378 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.