Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:33 AM - Re: Miter Joints on ribs (flea)
2. 12:53 AM - Re: for West coast Pieters only (flea)
3. 04:19 AM - Re: Re: Aerolite glue (piperj3cubflyer)
4. 07:02 AM - 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol (Larry V)
5. 07:15 AM - KTA Aluminum Control Horn (Michael Perez)
6. 07:21 AM - Re: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol (Michael Perez)
7. 07:30 AM - Re: Re: Aerolite glue (Jim Ash)
8. 07:36 AM - Re: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol (Larry V)
9. 07:43 AM - Re: Re: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol (Michael Perez)
10. 09:29 AM - Re: Re: Aerolite glue ()
11. 10:25 AM - Re: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol (Chris)
12. 11:21 AM - Re: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol (Dick N)
13. 01:23 PM - Re: Aerolite glue (dgaldrich)
14. 02:11 PM - Re: Re: Aerolite glue (Jim Ash)
15. 03:49 PM - Re: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol (Larry V)
16. 06:11 PM - Re: Re: Aerolite glue (Graham Hansen)
17. 06:35 PM - my experiance with Aerolite glue (shad bell)
18. 06:52 PM - GN-1 short vid (TriScout)
19. 08:15 PM - Another Video - Brodhead 2011 (jarheadpilot82)
20. 11:13 PM - Re: my experiance with Aerolite glue (johnwoods@westnet.com.au)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Miter Joints on ribs |
K5YAC wrote:
> Ohh, now look at that. Strange how we look at things differently. All of my
verticals were butted to the ribs while the diagonals were fitted in between
the verticals... opposite of yours. I guess there is no right or wrong way structurally,
but that just looks more difficult to me, although it is essentially
the same.
>
>
All of my verticals are butted up against the capstrips as well. I found it to
be much easier and faster that way. I have a baggy of gussets cut out and ready
to go, though I must be honest all of my gussets are the same size with the
exception of the nose. I can have a rib lad out and glued up in around 30 minutes
using my jig, a sharp mechanical pencil, and a bandsaw. All verticals are
square (as much as they can be) and all of the diagonals will have two angles
at each end marked out with the sharp pencil, then it's just a matter of a few
seconds in the saw for each piece.
Jim
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| Subject: | Re: for West coast Pieters only |
Chuck Campbell wrote:
> Jake, No!, yours is not the smallest. I saw a picture on the British Piet
> site where a fellow built a Piet in a one-car garage. I'm using a two-car
> garage and that's pretty tight -- don't know how he did it. C
>
> ---
Mine is in half a one car garage. along with a canoe, two kayaks, lawn mower, washer,
dryer, two large bookcases, a 3' wide storage shelf, four bicycles, and
car parts.
I have so little space that currently have ribs leaned up against the wall between
the clock and TV in the house. . .wife loves my hobbies.
Also on the west coast for what it's worth.
Do not archive
Jim.
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| Subject: | Re: Aerolite glue |
I live north of Chickasha, Ok KCHK about 10 miles.
On Oct 1, 2011, at 11:03 PM, "K5YAC" <hangar10@cox.net> wrote:
>
> Where are you located Jeff? Just curious... wondering if N6EJ will be leaving
our area. :(
>
> --------
> Mark Chouinard
> Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353749#353749
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol |
Hi
In the Pietenpol plans it calls for 3/16 in bolts . I cannot seem to find these
bolts. Does anyone no where these can be purchased.
Thanks Larry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353771#353771
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| Subject: | KTA Aluminum Control Horn |
I dug these pictures out of my picture/video archive of my building process
of NX992WD.- I had designed and fabricated a one piece aluminum control
horn a few years ago. I was not looking forward to the welding involved wit
h the steel fittings as shown on the plans, so I wondered about one piece a
luminum horns.- This prototype was made from 6061-T6. I beveled the edges
some for weight savings and aerodynamics. I guess one could go as far as d
rilling/cutting out lightning holes as well...
-
Anyhoo, I was reminded that a flat horn will not be as aero. as the steel o
nes made in a airfoil shape.- If I remember, the weight difference betwee
n this one and a fabricated steel one was minimal. (It must have been...oth
erwise I may have continued with making aluminum ones.)- Plus, I was not
entirely sure about vibration effects, loading, twist, etc. so I abandoned
the idea all together.
Michael Perez
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
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| Subject: | Re: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol |
Larry, 3/16" bolts are-AN3 bolt size. (also known as #10.)- Any aircraf
t supply place will sell AN3 bolts in various grip lengths.
Michael Perez
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Aerolite glue |
On a related note:
A year and a half ago at Sun 'n Fun, there was a Piet wing in the woodworking workshop
that was coming apart at the glue joints. The gussets would just pop off
with a little light pressure. I remember taking a close look at it with Skip.
One of the speculations was that the wood surface wasn't prepped properly.
Was there ever a determination made as to what happened there and why?
I suspect most everybody here knows the old adage about opinions, so you can take
the following as you will. Either that year or this one, somebody at SNF (I
think it was Vic Boyce) gave a session on why one system (T-88, IIRC) was good
and all the others were crap. I wanted to attend, but missed it. I'm not sure
I hold to the above opinion, but in all fairness I can't say I've really played
with a large enough assortment of them to be able to have come up with a qualified
opinion of my own.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: dgaldrich <dgaldrich@embarqmail.com>
>Sent: Oct 1, 2011 10:08 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aerolite glue
>
>
>A quick Google search showed a general consensus that, if applied properly, Aerolite
produces excellent results. The only static I found was from Down Under,
where their version of the FAA found that it tends to deteriorate when exposed
to high temps and humidity. Another reference said that Dehavilland Mosquito's
from WWII were built using it.
>
>If the rest of the construction of the Piet shows appropriate workmanship, then
the builder probably used it according to the instructions. Assuming it has
been hangared for most of its life, the Aerolite shouldn't be a deal breaker.
>
>As a left handed vote of confidence, I'd let my wife ride in Greg's Piet. Wait
a minute..... :-D
>
>Dave Aldrich
>
>do not archive
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353742#353742
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol |
Michael
Thank you for your reply on the bolts
Larry V
Read this topic online here:
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| Subject: | Re: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol |
You are welcome.
Michael Perez
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
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| Subject: | Re: Aerolite glue |
I have the same problem with my Emeraude. All the joints were glued and then nailed
on with tacks now they can be pried off with little effort and there is no
delamination of the wood such as I get when I glue something with T-88. Unfortunately
I do not know what they glued they used. It was originally built in
1985.
As another question, If I am making a laminated spar or longeron is it normal to
make the grains go different directions? If you look at the end grain one is
vertical IIII and one is horizontal ---- I hope I explained that okay. Just wondering
if I should replace it or just split it reglue and leave it as it was.
Rodney Hall
---- Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> On a related note:
>
> A year and a half ago at Sun 'n Fun, there was a Piet wing in the woodworking
workshop that was coming apart at the glue joints. The gussets would just pop
off with a little light pressure. I remember taking a close look at it with Skip.
One of the speculations was that the wood surface wasn't prepped properly.
Was there ever a determination made as to what happened there and why?
>
> I suspect most everybody here knows the old adage about opinions, so you can
take the following as you will. Either that year or this one, somebody at SNF
(I think it was Vic Boyce) gave a session on why one system (T-88, IIRC) was good
and all the others were crap. I wanted to attend, but missed it. I'm not sure
I hold to the above opinion, but in all fairness I can't say I've really played
with a large enough assortment of them to be able to have come up with a
qualified opinion of my own.
>
> Jim Ash
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: dgaldrich <dgaldrich@embarqmail.com>
> >Sent: Oct 1, 2011 10:08 PM
> >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aerolite glue
> >
> >
> >A quick Google search showed a general consensus that, if applied properly,
Aerolite produces excellent results. The only static I found was from Down Under,
where their version of the FAA found that it tends to deteriorate when exposed
to high temps and humidity. Another reference said that Dehavilland Mosquito's
from WWII were built using it.
> >
> >If the rest of the construction of the Piet shows appropriate workmanship, then
the builder probably used it according to the instructions. Assuming it has
been hangared for most of its life, the Aerolite shouldn't be a deal breaker.
> >
> >As a left handed vote of confidence, I'd let my wife ride in Greg's Piet. Wait
a minute..... :-D
> >
> >Dave Aldrich
> >
> >do not archive
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Read this topic online here:
> >
> >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353742#353742
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol |
Larry
Ron Wanttaja's Fly Baby website has a bunch of good references that you
should print out and hang in your shop.
http://www.wanttaja.com/shopsheets/index.html
The one that answers your question is the Bolt Basic sheet. But don't stop
here look at the rest of them and you will see a wealth of information
condensed onto one page.
Chris
Sacramento, Ca
Westcoastpiet.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry V
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 7:00 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol
--> <larryvangerven@hotmail.com>
Hi
In the Pietenpol plans it calls for 3/16 in bolts . I cannot seem to find
these bolts. Does anyone no where these can be purchased.
Thanks Larry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353771#353771
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol |
Larry
Try Aircraft Spruce An -3 Bolts Call them at 877-477-7823 or Wicks Aircraft
Supply at 800-221-9425
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry V" <larryvangerven@hotmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 9:00 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol
> <larryvangerven@hotmail.com>
>
> Hi
> In the Pietenpol plans it calls for 3/16 in bolts . I cannot seem to find
> these bolts. Does anyone no where these can be purchased.
> Thanks Larry
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353771#353771
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Aerolite glue |
I was one of the guys at Sun n Fun working on that wing and have a couple of observations.
1. The speculation (unproven but highly likely) was that the glue was a variation
of Weldwood's Plastic Resin, a one part water mix that has a note in AC 43-13
which seems to mandate FAA approval before being used for certified repairs.
AS&S has dropped it from their catalog. It did have a pretty decent record
of performance when used correctly in a number of older, certified aircraft
so it wasn't a true rolling disaster.
2. Some of the gussets in the tail feathers were impossible to pry off without
tearing the underlying wood. That is the sign of a correctly adhering glue joint.
The glue was the same color as the stuff used on the ribs so a reasonable
assumption is that they are the same and were applied differently -- temperature,
mix ratio, clamping pressure, open time, who knows.
3. The Aerolite referenced is also a urea-formeldehyde product but it uses an
acid activator.
Please note that these are observations based on no practical experience using
the stuff so that should be factored in. I will say that if I hadn't made such
a long term investment in the brewing industry, I would have no qualms about
hopping a ride in Greg's Piet. The level of workmanship he put in the rest of
it merits confidence in his proper use of Aerolite.
Dave Aldrich
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353815#353815
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| Subject: | Re: Aerolite glue |
On this note, a year ago I went to a session of the Sportair workshop "What's involved
in kit building" just to see what they had to say. One of the discussions
was regarding documentation and inspection procedures. I specifically asked
about providing glue samples, and the guy pretty much said nobody did that any
more. His reasoning was similar to your points; there's no guarantee the real
glue joints will perform like the samples, due to varying conditions. I still
don't think it's a bad idea and would probably help grease the skids that you've
been careful with your build when inspection time comes.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: dgaldrich <dgaldrich@embarqmail.com>
>Sent: Oct 2, 2011 4:20 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aerolite glue
>
>
>I was one of the guys at Sun n Fun working on that wing and have a couple of observations.
>
>1. The speculation (unproven but highly likely) was that the glue was a variation
of Weldwood's Plastic Resin, a one part water mix that has a note in AC 43-13
which seems to mandate FAA approval before being used for certified repairs.
AS&S has dropped it from their catalog. It did have a pretty decent record
of performance when used correctly in a number of older, certified aircraft
so it wasn't a true rolling disaster.
>
>2. Some of the gussets in the tail feathers were impossible to pry off without
tearing the underlying wood. That is the sign of a correctly adhering glue
joint. The glue was the same color as the stuff used on the ribs so a reasonable
assumption is that they are the same and were applied differently -- temperature,
mix ratio, clamping pressure, open time, who knows.
>
>3. The Aerolite referenced is also a urea-formeldehyde product but it uses an
acid activator.
>
>Please note that these are observations based on no practical experience using
the stuff so that should be factored in. I will say that if I hadn't made such
a long term investment in the brewing industry, I would have no qualms about
hopping a ride in Greg's Piet. The level of workmanship he put in the rest
of it merits confidence in his proper use of Aerolite.
>
>Dave Aldrich
>
>do not archive
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353815#353815
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol |
Chris and Dick thank you for your reply
Larry
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| Subject: | Re: Aerolite glue |
I began construction of my Pietenpol during the winter of 1959 using
Aerolite almost exclusively. The only other glue I used was Weldwood Plastic
Resin on some wing ribs. This glue was a good product back then and, if it
is still available, may not be so today. I date back to the time when casein
glue was the approved glue for aircraft use, and just about anything used
since is superior to casein glue,.including Weldwood PR and Aerolite. I have
seen DH Tiger Moth wings that were more-or-less held together by the fabric
after the casein glue joints in the ribs had failed!
For various reasons I did not finish myPietenpol until 1970, and have been
flying it ever since. Initially it was covered with Grade A cotton fabric
and had a hand-rubbed butyrate dope finish. Since cotton has a limited life,
I recovered it in 1985 using polyester fabric and butyrate dope, and had a
chance to check the glue joints. There was no problem with the Weldwood PR
glue joints anywhere, but a few Aerolite joints at the wing trailing edge
had failed for some reason. Elsewhere they were sound. I re-glued the failed
joints using epoxy adhesive because I figured re-gluing them with Aerolite
would not be a good idea. (The trailing edge-to-rib gussets are too small,
in my opinion, and I followed the plans. If I were to do another one, I
would icrease their size by using a triangular shape and I would use T-88
everywhere.)
BTW, I used Yellow Cedar for the trailing edge because it has a high
resistance to rot. However, it doesn't glue too well!
My airplane has been hangared for perhaps 95% of its life and has a little
over 840 hours on it. Never damaged (Touch wood!) and after 26 years the
polyester fabric is stll good. I really would like to remove it and do a
thorough inspection of the structure, but that isn't feasible for lack of
workspace, etc. I do have lots of inspection openings, however, and haven't
been able to discover any structural problems in the areas that can be
inspected. In central Alberta, Canada our climate is generally quite dry and
that favours longevity of a wooden structure. Other climates may not be so
kind.
In general, if the workmanship on an airplane is good and it has always been
hangared, I wouldn't be too concerned about the use of Aerolite in its
construction, but I would definitely install lots of inspection openings if
they are not already there.
Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN)
Message 17
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| Subject: | my experiance with Aerolite glue |
I bought an airplane project 10 years ago, not a piet-(and I am still wor
king on it!), it was built using aerolite.- The fuselage is in great shap
e, the wings were a different story.- Like your exsaple of the bad wings
at sun and fun, I was able to pop gussets off the spar-compression strut jo
ints with 2 fingers.- Found at least a dozen like that.- I scrapped the
wings and built all new ones, eaiser and lighter than un-doing all the gus
sets etc, etc.- While building my new wings (T-88 this time), I think I f
igured out why the joints were bad on the originals.- When assembling the
ribs to the spars each rib has 4 gussets on top, bot of spars. The easiest
way to assemble was to 1st prep all gussets, ribs, spars, then apply the g
lue to all the glue joint areas, and have the gussets right next to the ass
embly with the nails already started.- Next pick up the corosponding guss
et and nail it on, .- If the builder did this with aerolight glue, and pu
t
the glue on the spars, ribs, and activator on the gusets and let them sit
close to the open glue joint for an extended amount of time, the fumes from
the activator can start the glue curing before the joint is presed togeath
er.- This I am told will "crust over" the glue, and a weak joint is proba
ble.-
-
As with anything, you must follow the manufactures instructions for any glu
e, or product you use.- Aerolite, when properly applied, is great stuff,
But for ease of use I will stay with T-88.
-
Shad
Message 18
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|
..well, I flew the GN-1 last month and happened to have a little camera in my pocket,
so I captured some crude video during my maiden flight in it. It really
isn't a "maiden" flight since it's been flying since 1980, but it is first hop
w/it's 4th A65...as well as my first tailwheel flight in awhile...so it felt
maiden enough to me. I tried to play w/editing software on my Vista..seems easy
enough...what a blast. I felt like 16 again on first solo. I have 2 flts in
it, then back on the road for a couple weeks. In HKG as I write this. My wife
put it on "you-chube"..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFxpVnC4VqQ
Larry
Read this topic online here:
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| Subject: | Another Video - Brodhead 2011 |
Even though I was not able to be there this year, Brodhead 2011 looked like a good
time. I took some video and photo footage and played with it a little bit,
and put it to some appropriate music. It was fun to do, so I hope that you enjoy
seeing it.
I am looking forward to Brodhead 2012. Tools and I may be cooking up something
(figuratively, not literally) that we hope many of you be able to participate
in. Til then...
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Read this topic online here:
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Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: my experiance with Aerolite glue |
Shad wrote:
"If the builder did this with aerolight glue, and put the glue on the spars
,=C2- ibs, and activator on the gusets and let them sit close to the open
glue joint for an extended amount of time, the fumes from the activator ca
n start the glue curing before the joint is presed togeather.=C2- This I
am told will "crust over" the glue, and a weak joint is probable."
It is=C2-for this very reason that CASA Australia do not accept this type
of glue joint on aircraft.
CASA does not have any objection to "modern" adhesives, including Urea Form
aldehyde (Aerolite), Resorcinol Formaldehyde and=C2-Casien adhesives.
Casien is a milk based product which can be attacked by micro-organisms und
er the right humidity conditions over a period of time.
The "modern" Casien has a=C2-fungiside which prevents the deterioration b
y micro-organisms.
See attached AWB 02-11 for wood and adhesives.
Just for information.
JohnW
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