---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 10/02/11: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:33 AM - Re: Miter Joints on ribs (flea) 2. 12:53 AM - Re: for West coast Pieters only (flea) 3. 04:19 AM - Re: Re: Aerolite glue (piperj3cubflyer) 4. 07:02 AM - 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol (Larry V) 5. 07:15 AM - KTA Aluminum Control Horn (Michael Perez) 6. 07:21 AM - Re: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol (Michael Perez) 7. 07:30 AM - Re: Re: Aerolite glue (Jim Ash) 8. 07:36 AM - Re: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol (Larry V) 9. 07:43 AM - Re: Re: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol (Michael Perez) 10. 09:29 AM - Re: Re: Aerolite glue () 11. 10:25 AM - Re: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol (Chris) 12. 11:21 AM - Re: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol (Dick N) 13. 01:23 PM - Re: Aerolite glue (dgaldrich) 14. 02:11 PM - Re: Re: Aerolite glue (Jim Ash) 15. 03:49 PM - Re: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol (Larry V) 16. 06:11 PM - Re: Re: Aerolite glue (Graham Hansen) 17. 06:35 PM - my experiance with Aerolite glue (shad bell) 18. 06:52 PM - GN-1 short vid (TriScout) 19. 08:15 PM - Another Video - Brodhead 2011 (jarheadpilot82) 20. 11:13 PM - Re: my experiance with Aerolite glue (johnwoods@westnet.com.au) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:33:23 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Miter Joints on ribs From: "flea" K5YAC wrote: > Ohh, now look at that. Strange how we look at things differently. All of my verticals were butted to the ribs while the diagonals were fitted in between the verticals... opposite of yours. I guess there is no right or wrong way structurally, but that just looks more difficult to me, although it is essentially the same. > > All of my verticals are butted up against the capstrips as well. I found it to be much easier and faster that way. I have a baggy of gussets cut out and ready to go, though I must be honest all of my gussets are the same size with the exception of the nose. I can have a rib lad out and glued up in around 30 minutes using my jig, a sharp mechanical pencil, and a bandsaw. All verticals are square (as much as they can be) and all of the diagonals will have two angles at each end marked out with the sharp pencil, then it's just a matter of a few seconds in the saw for each piece. Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353757#353757 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:53:02 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: for West coast Pieters only From: "flea" Chuck Campbell wrote: > Jake, No!, yours is not the smallest. I saw a picture on the British Piet > site where a fellow built a Piet in a one-car garage. I'm using a two-car > garage and that's pretty tight -- don't know how he did it. C > > --- Mine is in half a one car garage. along with a canoe, two kayaks, lawn mower, washer, dryer, two large bookcases, a 3' wide storage shelf, four bicycles, and car parts. I have so little space that currently have ribs leaned up against the wall between the clock and TV in the house. . .wife loves my hobbies. Also on the west coast for what it's worth. Do not archive Jim. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353758#353758 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:19:44 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aerolite glue From: piperj3cubflyer I live north of Chickasha, Ok KCHK about 10 miles. On Oct 1, 2011, at 11:03 PM, "K5YAC" wrote: > > Where are you located Jeff? Just curious... wondering if N6EJ will be leaving our area. :( > > -------- > Mark Chouinard > Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353749#353749 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:49 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol From: "Larry V" Hi In the Pietenpol plans it calls for 3/16 in bolts . I cannot seem to find these bolts. Does anyone no where these can be purchased. Thanks Larry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353771#353771 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:15:46 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Pietenpol-List: KTA Aluminum Control Horn I dug these pictures out of my picture/video archive of my building process of NX992WD.- I had designed and fabricated a one piece aluminum control horn a few years ago. I was not looking forward to the welding involved wit h the steel fittings as shown on the plans, so I wondered about one piece a luminum horns.- This prototype was made from 6061-T6. I beveled the edges some for weight savings and aerodynamics. I guess one could go as far as d rilling/cutting out lightning holes as well... - Anyhoo, I was reminded that a flat horn will not be as aero. as the steel o nes made in a airfoil shape.- If I remember, the weight difference betwee n this one and a fabricated steel one was minimal. (It must have been...oth erwise I may have continued with making aluminum ones.)- Plus, I was not entirely sure about vibration effects, loading, twist, etc. so I abandoned the idea all together. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:21:20 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol Larry, 3/16" bolts are-AN3 bolt size. (also known as #10.)- Any aircraf t supply place will sell AN3 bolts in various grip lengths. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:30:11 AM PST US From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aerolite glue On a related note: A year and a half ago at Sun 'n Fun, there was a Piet wing in the woodworking workshop that was coming apart at the glue joints. The gussets would just pop off with a little light pressure. I remember taking a close look at it with Skip. One of the speculations was that the wood surface wasn't prepped properly. Was there ever a determination made as to what happened there and why? I suspect most everybody here knows the old adage about opinions, so you can take the following as you will. Either that year or this one, somebody at SNF (I think it was Vic Boyce) gave a session on why one system (T-88, IIRC) was good and all the others were crap. I wanted to attend, but missed it. I'm not sure I hold to the above opinion, but in all fairness I can't say I've really played with a large enough assortment of them to be able to have come up with a qualified opinion of my own. Jim Ash -----Original Message----- >From: dgaldrich >Sent: Oct 1, 2011 10:08 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aerolite glue > > >A quick Google search showed a general consensus that, if applied properly, Aerolite produces excellent results. The only static I found was from Down Under, where their version of the FAA found that it tends to deteriorate when exposed to high temps and humidity. Another reference said that Dehavilland Mosquito's from WWII were built using it. > >If the rest of the construction of the Piet shows appropriate workmanship, then the builder probably used it according to the instructions. Assuming it has been hangared for most of its life, the Aerolite shouldn't be a deal breaker. > >As a left handed vote of confidence, I'd let my wife ride in Greg's Piet. Wait a minute..... :-D > >Dave Aldrich > >do not archive > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353742#353742 > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:05 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol From: "Larry V" Michael Thank you for your reply on the bolts Larry V Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353776#353776 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:43:11 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol You are welcome. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:29:10 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aerolite glue I have the same problem with my Emeraude. All the joints were glued and then nailed on with tacks now they can be pried off with little effort and there is no delamination of the wood such as I get when I glue something with T-88. Unfortunately I do not know what they glued they used. It was originally built in 1985. As another question, If I am making a laminated spar or longeron is it normal to make the grains go different directions? If you look at the end grain one is vertical IIII and one is horizontal ---- I hope I explained that okay. Just wondering if I should replace it or just split it reglue and leave it as it was. Rodney Hall ---- Jim Ash wrote: > > On a related note: > > A year and a half ago at Sun 'n Fun, there was a Piet wing in the woodworking workshop that was coming apart at the glue joints. The gussets would just pop off with a little light pressure. I remember taking a close look at it with Skip. One of the speculations was that the wood surface wasn't prepped properly. Was there ever a determination made as to what happened there and why? > > I suspect most everybody here knows the old adage about opinions, so you can take the following as you will. Either that year or this one, somebody at SNF (I think it was Vic Boyce) gave a session on why one system (T-88, IIRC) was good and all the others were crap. I wanted to attend, but missed it. I'm not sure I hold to the above opinion, but in all fairness I can't say I've really played with a large enough assortment of them to be able to have come up with a qualified opinion of my own. > > Jim Ash > > > -----Original Message----- > >From: dgaldrich > >Sent: Oct 1, 2011 10:08 PM > >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aerolite glue > > > > > >A quick Google search showed a general consensus that, if applied properly, Aerolite produces excellent results. The only static I found was from Down Under, where their version of the FAA found that it tends to deteriorate when exposed to high temps and humidity. Another reference said that Dehavilland Mosquito's from WWII were built using it. > > > >If the rest of the construction of the Piet shows appropriate workmanship, then the builder probably used it according to the instructions. Assuming it has been hangared for most of its life, the Aerolite shouldn't be a deal breaker. > > > >As a left handed vote of confidence, I'd let my wife ride in Greg's Piet. Wait a minute..... :-D > > > >Dave Aldrich > > > >do not archive > > > > > > > > > >Read this topic online here: > > > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353742#353742 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:16 AM PST US From: "Chris" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol Larry Ron Wanttaja's Fly Baby website has a bunch of good references that you should print out and hang in your shop. http://www.wanttaja.com/shopsheets/index.html The one that answers your question is the Bolt Basic sheet. But don't stop here look at the rest of them and you will see a wealth of information condensed onto one page. Chris Sacramento, Ca Westcoastpiet.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry V Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 7:00 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol --> Hi In the Pietenpol plans it calls for 3/16 in bolts . I cannot seem to find these bolts. Does anyone no where these can be purchased. Thanks Larry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353771#353771 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:21:09 AM PST US From: "Dick N" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol Larry Try Aircraft Spruce An -3 Bolts Call them at 877-477-7823 or Wicks Aircraft Supply at 800-221-9425 Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry V" Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 9:00 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol > > > Hi > In the Pietenpol plans it calls for 3/16 in bolts . I cannot seem to find > these bolts. Does anyone no where these can be purchased. > Thanks Larry > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353771#353771 > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:23:15 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aerolite glue From: "dgaldrich" I was one of the guys at Sun n Fun working on that wing and have a couple of observations. 1. The speculation (unproven but highly likely) was that the glue was a variation of Weldwood's Plastic Resin, a one part water mix that has a note in AC 43-13 which seems to mandate FAA approval before being used for certified repairs. AS&S has dropped it from their catalog. It did have a pretty decent record of performance when used correctly in a number of older, certified aircraft so it wasn't a true rolling disaster. 2. Some of the gussets in the tail feathers were impossible to pry off without tearing the underlying wood. That is the sign of a correctly adhering glue joint. The glue was the same color as the stuff used on the ribs so a reasonable assumption is that they are the same and were applied differently -- temperature, mix ratio, clamping pressure, open time, who knows. 3. The Aerolite referenced is also a urea-formeldehyde product but it uses an acid activator. Please note that these are observations based on no practical experience using the stuff so that should be factored in. I will say that if I hadn't made such a long term investment in the brewing industry, I would have no qualms about hopping a ride in Greg's Piet. The level of workmanship he put in the rest of it merits confidence in his proper use of Aerolite. Dave Aldrich do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353815#353815 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:55 PM PST US From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aerolite glue On this note, a year ago I went to a session of the Sportair workshop "What's involved in kit building" just to see what they had to say. One of the discussions was regarding documentation and inspection procedures. I specifically asked about providing glue samples, and the guy pretty much said nobody did that any more. His reasoning was similar to your points; there's no guarantee the real glue joints will perform like the samples, due to varying conditions. I still don't think it's a bad idea and would probably help grease the skids that you've been careful with your build when inspection time comes. Jim Ash -----Original Message----- >From: dgaldrich >Sent: Oct 2, 2011 4:20 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aerolite glue > > >I was one of the guys at Sun n Fun working on that wing and have a couple of observations. > >1. The speculation (unproven but highly likely) was that the glue was a variation of Weldwood's Plastic Resin, a one part water mix that has a note in AC 43-13 which seems to mandate FAA approval before being used for certified repairs. AS&S has dropped it from their catalog. It did have a pretty decent record of performance when used correctly in a number of older, certified aircraft so it wasn't a true rolling disaster. > >2. Some of the gussets in the tail feathers were impossible to pry off without tearing the underlying wood. That is the sign of a correctly adhering glue joint. The glue was the same color as the stuff used on the ribs so a reasonable assumption is that they are the same and were applied differently -- temperature, mix ratio, clamping pressure, open time, who knows. > >3. The Aerolite referenced is also a urea-formeldehyde product but it uses an acid activator. > >Please note that these are observations based on no practical experience using the stuff so that should be factored in. I will say that if I hadn't made such a long term investment in the brewing industry, I would have no qualms about hopping a ride in Greg's Piet. The level of workmanship he put in the rest of it merits confidence in his proper use of Aerolite. > >Dave Aldrich > >do not archive > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353815#353815 > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:49:53 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol From: "Larry V" Chris and Dick thank you for your reply Larry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353825#353825 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:47 PM PST US From: "Graham Hansen" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aerolite glue I began construction of my Pietenpol during the winter of 1959 using Aerolite almost exclusively. The only other glue I used was Weldwood Plastic Resin on some wing ribs. This glue was a good product back then and, if it is still available, may not be so today. I date back to the time when casein glue was the approved glue for aircraft use, and just about anything used since is superior to casein glue,.including Weldwood PR and Aerolite. I have seen DH Tiger Moth wings that were more-or-less held together by the fabric after the casein glue joints in the ribs had failed! For various reasons I did not finish myPietenpol until 1970, and have been flying it ever since. Initially it was covered with Grade A cotton fabric and had a hand-rubbed butyrate dope finish. Since cotton has a limited life, I recovered it in 1985 using polyester fabric and butyrate dope, and had a chance to check the glue joints. There was no problem with the Weldwood PR glue joints anywhere, but a few Aerolite joints at the wing trailing edge had failed for some reason. Elsewhere they were sound. I re-glued the failed joints using epoxy adhesive because I figured re-gluing them with Aerolite would not be a good idea. (The trailing edge-to-rib gussets are too small, in my opinion, and I followed the plans. If I were to do another one, I would icrease their size by using a triangular shape and I would use T-88 everywhere.) BTW, I used Yellow Cedar for the trailing edge because it has a high resistance to rot. However, it doesn't glue too well! My airplane has been hangared for perhaps 95% of its life and has a little over 840 hours on it. Never damaged (Touch wood!) and after 26 years the polyester fabric is stll good. I really would like to remove it and do a thorough inspection of the structure, but that isn't feasible for lack of workspace, etc. I do have lots of inspection openings, however, and haven't been able to discover any structural problems in the areas that can be inspected. In central Alberta, Canada our climate is generally quite dry and that favours longevity of a wooden structure. Other climates may not be so kind. In general, if the workmanship on an airplane is good and it has always been hangared, I wouldn't be too concerned about the use of Aerolite in its construction, but I would definitely install lots of inspection openings if they are not already there. Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN) ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:09 PM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Pietenpol-List: my experiance with Aerolite glue I bought an airplane project 10 years ago, not a piet-(and I am still wor king on it!), it was built using aerolite.- The fuselage is in great shap e, the wings were a different story.- Like your exsaple of the bad wings at sun and fun, I was able to pop gussets off the spar-compression strut jo ints with 2 fingers.- Found at least a dozen like that.- I scrapped the wings and built all new ones, eaiser and lighter than un-doing all the gus sets etc, etc.- While building my new wings (T-88 this time), I think I f igured out why the joints were bad on the originals.- When assembling the ribs to the spars each rib has 4 gussets on top, bot of spars. The easiest way to assemble was to 1st prep all gussets, ribs, spars, then apply the g lue to all the glue joint areas, and have the gussets right next to the ass embly with the nails already started.- Next pick up the corosponding guss et and nail it on, .- If the builder did this with aerolight glue, and pu t the glue on the spars, ribs, and activator on the gusets and let them sit close to the open glue joint for an extended amount of time, the fumes from the activator can start the glue curing before the joint is presed togeath er.- This I am told will "crust over" the glue, and a weak joint is proba ble.- - As with anything, you must follow the manufactures instructions for any glu e, or product you use.- Aerolite, when properly applied, is great stuff, But for ease of use I will stay with T-88. - Shad ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:52:08 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: GN-1 short vid From: "TriScout" ..well, I flew the GN-1 last month and happened to have a little camera in my pocket, so I captured some crude video during my maiden flight in it. It really isn't a "maiden" flight since it's been flying since 1980, but it is first hop w/it's 4th A65...as well as my first tailwheel flight in awhile...so it felt maiden enough to me. I tried to play w/editing software on my Vista..seems easy enough...what a blast. I felt like 16 again on first solo. I have 2 flts in it, then back on the road for a couple weeks. In HKG as I write this. My wife put it on "you-chube".. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFxpVnC4VqQ Larry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353835#353835 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:54 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Another Video - Brodhead 2011 From: "jarheadpilot82" Even though I was not able to be there this year, Brodhead 2011 looked like a good time. I took some video and photo footage and played with it a little bit, and put it to some appropriate music. It was fun to do, so I hope that you enjoy seeing it. I am looking forward to Brodhead 2012. Tools and I may be cooking up something (figuratively, not literally) that we hope many of you be able to participate in. Til then... -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353844#353844 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:13:58 PM PST US From: johnwoods@westnet.com.au Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: my experiance with Aerolite glue Shad wrote: "If the builder did this with aerolight glue, and put the glue on the spars ,=C2- ibs, and activator on the gusets and let them sit close to the open glue joint for an extended amount of time, the fumes from the activator ca n start the glue curing before the joint is presed togeather.=C2- This I am told will "crust over" the glue, and a weak joint is probable." It is=C2-for this very reason that CASA Australia do not accept this type of glue joint on aircraft. CASA does not have any objection to "modern" adhesives, including Urea Form aldehyde (Aerolite), Resorcinol Formaldehyde and=C2-Casien adhesives. Casien is a milk based product which can be attacked by micro-organisms und er the right humidity conditions over a period of time. The "modern" Casien has a=C2-fungiside which prevents the deterioration b y micro-organisms. See attached AWB 02-11 for wood and adhesives. Just for information. JohnW ================ == ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.