---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/18/11: 41 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:20 AM - Re: cool video (dgaldrich) 2. 04:37 AM - Re: Sheet metal for cowlings and combings. (helspersew@aol.com) 3. 04:38 AM - Wire Wheel Bearings (Jack) 4. 04:51 AM - Re: Re: so i have been using poplar (helspersew@aol.com) 5. 04:55 AM - Re: Sheet metal for cowlings and combings. (Scott Knowlton) 6. 04:55 AM - Re: Wire Wheel Bearings (Gene Rambo) 7. 05:06 AM - Re: Another "New To List" Guy (helspersew@aol.com) 8. 05:15 AM - Re: Wire Wheel Bearings (helspersew@aol.com) 9. 05:48 AM - Re: Wire Wheel Bearings (Jack Phillips) 10. 06:35 AM - Re: Wire Wheel Bearings (Jack) 11. 06:59 AM - Re: Wire Wheel Bearings (Jack Phillips) 12. 07:27 AM - Re: Wire Wheel Bearings (John Hofmann) 13. 07:29 AM - Re: Re: Wire Wheel Bearings (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG FORSCOM) 14. 07:50 AM - Re: so i have been using poplar (bender) 15. 08:13 AM - Re: Wire Wheel Bearings (Jerry Dotson) 16. 08:35 AM - Re: Wire Wheel Bearings (tools) 17. 09:09 AM - Re: Another "New To List" Guy (DaveG601XL) 18. 09:36 AM - Re: Another "New To List" Guy (DaveG601XL) 19. 09:48 AM - Re: Re: Wire Wheel Bearings (Michael Perez) 20. 10:11 AM - Re: Wire Wheel Bearings (Jack) 21. 10:24 AM - Re: Copperstate (AircamperN11MS) 22. 10:31 AM - Re: Wire Wheel Bearings (Gboothe5) 23. 10:40 AM - Re: Another "New To List" Guy (Bryan Reed) 24. 10:47 AM - Re: Wire Wheel Bearings (AircamperN11MS) 25. 10:55 AM - Wire Wheels (Gboothe5) 26. 11:56 AM - Re: Re: Another "New To List" Guy (Jack Phillips) 27. 12:00 PM - Re: Wire Wheel Bearings (Jack Phillips) 28. 12:51 PM - Re: Re: Another "New To List" Guy (Bryan Reed) 29. 01:03 PM - Re: Wire Wheel Bearings (Jack) 30. 01:09 PM - Re: Push Pull Elevator? (Chris Rusch) 31. 01:09 PM - Re: Sheet metal for cowlings and combings. (Jim Ash) 32. 01:11 PM - Re: cool video (Chris Rusch) 33. 01:36 PM - Re: Wire Wheel Bearings (Jack Phillips) 34. 01:44 PM - Re: Wire Wheel Bearings (Bill Church) 35. 02:04 PM - Re: Re: Another "New To List" Guy (Jack Phillips) 36. 02:23 PM - Re: Wire Wheel Bearings (Jack) 37. 02:54 PM - Re: Another "New To List" Guy (Bill Church) 38. 03:17 PM - Re: Re: Another "New To List" Guy (Gboothe5) 39. 04:07 PM - Re: Wire Wheels (Jeff Wilson) 40. 07:16 PM - Re: Wire Wheel Bearings (Clif Dawson) 41. 07:57 PM - Re: Another "New To List" Guy (kevinpurtee) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:20:45 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: cool video From: "dgaldrich" Hi Douwe Congratulations are in order for your getting the commission on this important project. Any idea when it will be completed and shown to the public? I get to NYC on a regular basis and would LOVE to see it. The video looks spectacular. If you do miniatures, sign me up too. Maybe Dick and I can get consecutively numbered ones. :D I'm serious and I'm pretty sure Dick is too. Dave Aldrich Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355367#355367 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:37:43 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sheet metal for cowlings and combings. From: helspersew@aol.com I used .032" 3003 for the nose cowl. The way I did it, there were small bum p-outs to avoid contact with the engine mount bolt heads, louvers under the engine, and also some very small compound bends around the nose piece. 300 3 is soft enough for those things. 2024 .025 was used for the combing to ta ke the passenger abuse. Dan Helsper Puryear, TN mail.com> Gents, I had a small incident with my Stinson yesterday when a wind gust bl ew the passenger door open and against the boot cowl causing a small hole. I decided to order a full sheet of material so that after fabricating the pat ch I will have sufficient mterial remaining for the cowlings of my piet. What material are most using for cowlings? 2024, 6061 or 7075? 032 or 040 ? Thanks! Scott Knowlton Burlington Ontario ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:38:35 AM PST US From: "Jack" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings Group, my wire wheels have a 1 5/8=94 opening and have been fitted with 1 =BD=94 ID bronze bushings. Will this setup alone work with the 1 =BD=94 axle? I would rather utilize some type of a roller bearing but have not found any with such a small wall thickness. It seems to me with just bushings the friction could be a problem. Thanks, Jack DSM ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:51:43 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: so i have been using poplar From: helspersew@aol.com Marvin, The DAR came to look at my plane to issue a temporary airworthiness certifi cate, but was really only concerned about completing the government paperwo rk, and to see if I had everything labeled properly. For me, he was more of a nuisance than a help. I asked him twice to not lean on my combing, but h e proceeded to bend it anyway. During your build it might be helpful for so me knowledgeable friends to advise you along the way. The DAR doesn't have the authority to tell you that your airplane is "unsafe". Dan Helsper Puryear, TN -----Original Message----- From: Marvin Haught Sent: Mon, Oct 17, 2011 3:09 pm Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: so i have been using poplar .net> Well, I'm not an authority, but according to this document ttp://www.eaa206.org/tech_pdf/Certify_Homebuilt_Airplane.pdf - an airworthiness inspection IS required for a homebuilt aircraft. nd I do know that every airplane I know of that has flown in our hapter had an airworthiness inspection by either a DAR or an FAA nspector. My understanding is that the airworthiness inspection is equired prior to flying off the test period. M. Haught On 10/17/2011 2:32 PM, bender wrote: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "bender" I'm an IA and i'm using poplar... there is no "airworthy" inspecton...thats why you fly a test period to pro ve t will work you're using an approved wood species ...and it's an experimental plane remember in the F&G manual Mr Pietenpol says the ship could be lighter hroughout and he built on the side of ruggedness an IA is not the FAA or a DAR... i've met a few that had their own ideas of right and wrong many of the A&P friends i have look at the piet after working on corporate ets and think i'm crazy... jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355307#355307 - .Marvin Haught Jr. aught& Associates, Inc untsville, AR 72740 -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:55:38 AM PST US From: "Scott Knowlton " Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sheet metal for cowlings and combings. Thanks to everyone for their inputs. I suppose my biggest challenge will be stowing the coil of material safely in my shop for the next year or two until I need it! Scott -----Original Message----- From: helspersew@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sheet metal for cowlings and combings. I used .032" 3003 for the nose cowl. The way I did it, there were small bump-outs to avoid contact with the engine mount bolt heads, louvers under the engine, and also some very small compound bends around the nose piece. 3003 is soft enough for those things. 2024 .025 was used for the combing to take the passenger abuse. Dan Helsper Puryear, TN Gents, I had a small incident with my Stinson yesterday when a wind gust blew the passenger door open and against the boot cowl causing a small hole. I decided to order a full sheet of material so that after fabricating the patch I will have sufficient mterial remaining for the cowlings of my piet. What material are most using for cowlings?  2024, 6061 or 7075?  032 or 040?   Thanks! Scott Knowlton Burlington Ontario ========== -List Email Forum - enpol-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ========== p;   - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - _blank>http://forums.matronics.com ========== p; - List Contribution Web Site - p;                  -Matt Dralle, List Admin. target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:55:51 AM PST US From: Gene Rambo Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings no problem at all with bronze bushings. Many=2C many aircraft have them. Roller bearings without a heat treated axle can wear into the axle. do not archive From: jack@textors.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings Wire Wheel Bearings Group=2C my wire wheels have a 1 5/8=94 opening and have been fitted with 1 =BD=94 ID bronze bushings. Will this setup alone work with the 1 =BD=94 a xle? I would rather utilize some type of a roller bearing but have not fou nd any with such a small wall thickness. It seems to me with just bushings the friction could be a problem. Thanks=2C Jack DSM ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:06:37 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Another "New To List" Guy From: helspersew@aol.com Hi Dave, Welcome, and good for you to take over your Dad's project. But you know, yo u really need to get those wheels back from your brother Tim. If memory ser ves, those spoked wheels that are spinning on his Pober were originally int ended for, and part of your project :O) Dan Helsper Puryear, TN ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:15:56 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings From: helspersew@aol.com Jack, McMaster Carr has a full range of oil-impregnated bronze bushings. That is what I used. Dan Helsper Puryear, TN -----Original Message----- From: Gene Rambo Sent: Tue, Oct 18, 2011 6:55 am Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings no problem at all with bronze bushings. Many, many aircraft have them. Ro ller bearings without a heat treated axle can wear into the axle. do not archive From: jack@textors.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings Group, my wire wheels have a 1 5/8=9D opening and have been fitted wi th 1 =C2=BD=9D ID bronze bushings. Will this setup alone work with t he 1 =C2=BD=9D axle? I would rather utilize some type of a roller be aring but have not found any with such a small wall thickness. It seems to me with just bushings the friction could be a problem. Thanks, Jack DSM st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ttp://forums.matronics.com "_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:48:49 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings Just grease them well at each annual and you will be fine. Gene is correct (as usual) that many (most?) antiques used bronze bushings. For a more recent example, Mike Cuy uses bronze bushings on his Pietenpol. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 7:54 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings no problem at all with bronze bushings. Many, many aircraft have them. Roller bearings without a heat treated axle can wear into the axle. do not archive _____ From: jack@textors.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings Group, my wire wheels have a 1 5/8=94 opening and have been fitted with 1 =BD=94 ID bronze bushings. Will this setup alone work with the 1 =BD=94 axle? I would rather utilize some type of a roller bearing but have not found any with such a small wall thickness. It seems to me with just bushings the friction could be a problem. Thanks, Jack DSM st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:15 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings From: Jack Dan what is oil impregnated actually mean? Jack Textor Sent from my iPhone On Oct 18, 2011, at 7:13 AM, helspersew@aol.com wrote: > Jack, > > McMaster Carr has a full range of oil-impregnated bronze bushings. That is what I used. > > Dan Helsper > Puryear, TN > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gene Rambo > To: pietenpol-list > Sent: Tue, Oct 18, 2011 6:55 am > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings > > no problem at all with bronze bushings. Many, many aircraft have them. R oller bearings without a heat treated axle can wear into the axle. > > do not archive > > From: jack@textors.com > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings > Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 06:36:13 -0500 > > Group, my wire wheels have a 1 5/8=9D opening and have been fitted w ith 1 =C2=BD=9D ID bronze bushings. Will this setup alone work with t he 1 =C2=BD=9D axle? I would rather utilize some type of a roller bea ring but have not found any with such a small wall thickness. It seems to m e with just bushings the friction could be a problem. > Thanks, > Jack > DSM > > > st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > http://forums.matronics.com > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > p://forums.matronics.com > blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:37 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings Try googling it, Jack. OIL IMPREGNATED SINTERED BRONZE Anchor Bronze offers oil filled sintered bronze sleeve bearings, flanged bearings, thrust bearings, cored bars, solid bars and plates. Our sintered bronze products conform to ASTM recommended dimensions and tolerances. After forming, sintering and sizing, the bearings are vacuum impregnated with SAE 30 oil that provides lubricant which is metered from the bearing to the shaft during rotation. Standard sintered bronze bearings and wear plates will function satisfactorily in temperatures ranging from 10=BAF to 220=BAF. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 9:33 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings Dan what is oil impregnated actually mean? Jack Textor Sent from my iPhone On Oct 18, 2011, at 7:13 AM, helspersew@aol.com wrote: Jack, McMaster Carr has a full range of oil-impregnated bronze bushings. That is what I used. Dan Helsper Puryear, TN -----Original Message----- From: Gene Rambo Sent: Tue, Oct 18, 2011 6:55 am Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings no problem at all with bronze bushings. Many, many aircraft have them. Roller bearings without a heat treated axle can wear into the axle. do not archive _____ From: jack@textors.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings Group, my wire wheels have a 1 5/8=94 opening and have been fitted with 1 =BD=94 ID bronze bushings. Will this setup alone work with the 1 =BD=94 axle? I would rather utilize some type of a roller bearing but have not found any with such a small wall thickness. It seems to me with just bushings the friction could be a problem. Thanks, Jack DSM st" target="_blank"> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com ="_blank"> http://www.matronics.com/contribution " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========= >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ========= ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ========= http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribut ion ========= ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:27:27 AM PST US From: John Hofmann Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings There is a "Mama" bearing and a "Papa" bearing. They fall in love (or they have too much to drink one night and end up on the back of an old Dodge van).... do not archive John Hofmann Vice-President, Information Technology The Rees Group, Inc. 2424 American Lane Madison, WI 53704 Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 Fax: 608.443.2474 Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com On Oct 18, 2011, at 8:32 AM, Jack wrote: > Dan what is oil impregnated actually mean? > > Jack Textor > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 18, 2011, at 7:13 AM, helspersew@aol.com wrote: > >> Jack, >> >> McMaster Carr has a full range of oil-impregnated bronze bushings. That is what I used. >> >> Dan Helsper >> Puryear, TN >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Gene Rambo >> To: pietenpol-list >> Sent: Tue, Oct 18, 2011 6:55 am >> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings >> >> no problem at all with bronze bushings. Many, many aircraft have them. Roller bearings without a heat treated axle can wear into the axle. >> >> do not archive >> >> From: jack@textors.com >> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings >> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 06:36:13 -0500 >> >> Group, my wire wheels have a 1 5/8=94 opening and have been fitted with 1 =BD=94 ID bronze bushings. Will this setup alone work with the 1 =BD=94 axle? I would rather utilize some type of a roller bearing but have not found any with such a small wall thickness. It seems to me with just bushings the friction could be a problem. >> Thanks, >> Jack >> DSM >> >> >> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> http://forums.matronics.com >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> >> >> " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> p://forums.matronics.com >> blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> >> >> ======================== >> >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> ======================== >> ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> ======================== >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contributi on >> ======================== >> > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:53 AM PST US From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG FORSCOM" Subject: Re: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings Just googled Sintered and found out that it is forming an object from a powder without melting it. IN the case of brake pads they Heat form the pad and incude other minerals. I guess that this makes it porous and it will hold oil in this case. Blue Skies, Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack Phillips Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings > Try googling it, Jack. > > > > OIL IMPREGNATED SINTERED BRONZE > > Anchor Bronze offers oil filled sintered bronze sleeve bearings, > flangedbearings, thrust bearings, cored bars, solid bars and > plates. Our sintered > bronze products conform to ASTM recommended dimensions and > tolerances. After > forming, sintering and sizing, the bearings are vacuum impregnated > with SAE > 30 oil that provides lubricant which is metered from the bearing to > theshaft during rotation. Standard sintered bronze bearings and > wear plates > will function satisfactorily in temperatures ranging from 10F to > 220F. > Jack Phillips > > NX899JP > > Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia > > > > _____ > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack > Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 9:33 AM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings > > > > Dan what is oil impregnated actually mean? > > Jack Textor > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Oct 18, 2011, at 7:13 AM, helspersew@aol.com wrote: > > Jack, > > > > McMaster Carr has a full range of oil-impregnated bronze bushings. > That is > what I used. > > > > Dan Helsper > > Puryear, TN > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gene Rambo < > To: pietenpol-list < > Sent: Tue, Oct 18, 2011 6:55 am > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings > > no problem at all with bronze bushings. Many, many aircraft have them. > Roller bearings without a heat treated axle can wear into the axle. > > do not archive > > > > _____ > > > From: jack@textors.com > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings > Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 06:36:13 -0500 > > Group, my wire wheels have a 1 5/8 opening and have been fitted with 1 > ID bronze bushings. Will this setup alone work with the 1 axle? I would > rather utilize some type of a roller bearing but have not found any with > such a small wall thickness. It seems to me with just bushings the friction > could be a problem. > > Thanks, > > Jack > > DSM > > > > st" target="_blank"> > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > http://forums.matronics.com > ="_blank"> > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > p://forums.matronics.com > blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > ========= > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > ========= > ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > ========= > http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========= > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:25 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: so i have been using poplar From: "bender" i've been called crazy more than a few times...so maybe it's true i was trying to say that its not up to a DAR or the FAA to determine that your airplane is airworthy... just that you followed the rules.. like Dan said.... "more of a nuisance than a help" jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355400#355400 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:47 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wire Wheel Bearings From: "Jerry Dotson" Jack, I am using bronze bushings from.......You guessed it McMaster. I put a grease fitting in the hub to just give it a shot now and then. If wear gets to be a problem I will fly it more and drive it less! do not archive -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 now covering 21" wheels Lycoming O-235 C 2C Jay Anderson CloudCars prop 76 X 44 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355403#355403 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:01 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wire Wheel Bearings From: "tools" Personally I think the bronze bearings are the way to go, but, just in case you want to research more. Needle bearings would fit in there. I'm not sure they are rated for use in a wheel, but a bearing supplier could probably tell you. Food for thought. Tools Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355410#355410 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:38 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Another "New To List" Guy From: "DaveG601XL" Dan, I can't remember if "my" original wheels are still on his Jr. Ace, or if they were the ones crunched up on runway 36 at Oshkosh a few years back. I don't have the heart to ask and bring up the bad memories. Either way, possession is 9/10's, right? -------- David Gallagher 601 XL: flying, 200+ hours now Next project: Pietenpol/GN-1 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355415#355415 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:36:35 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Another "New To List" Guy From: "DaveG601XL" Bill, I will appreciate and listen to anyones opinion, asked for or not. Now whether I heed that advice or not is another story altogether. As far as the gear goes, that is one of the first things that perplexes me. I am based at a paved runway and the most common places I would fly to are also paved. I have only a little tailwheel time in the logbook, but what I do have is in Cubs and Champs and I was honestly thinking about possibly using Cub gear. OK, slap, slap, I probably deserve that. I am used to how their small round and fat tires work, but I have little idea of how big and thin spoked wheels act. I was a passenger in my brother's spoked Jr. Ace on pavement only once and it seemed to be more squirrelly and even less tolerant of side loads. In the battle between "looks right" and "handles right," I will err towards the latter, but it is certianly tempting that I can just slap some wheels on my current gear and go as opposed to re-doing the whole thing. Opinions here are certainly welcome. The second, out of a thousand things, that perplexes me with this project requires a little closer look at the gear attach fittings. Only the front fitting has a lift strut attachment point. Are there any Pietenpol/GN-1's out there where both lift struts attach down at the same point?? I certainly need some help with this one. -------- David Gallagher 601 XL: flying, 200+ hours now Next project: Pietenpol/GN-1 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355417#355417 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:06 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wire Wheel Bearings I went the bronze bushing route as well. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:49 AM PST US From: "Jack" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings You got me Jack! I do like Hofmann=92s answer though. Thanks to all for your input and offer to machine! Next question, yes I Googled, is there a way to tell the difference between pregnant and sterile bearings? I=92m guessing mine are sterile. Jack DSM _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Phillips Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 8:57 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings Try googling it, Jack. OIL IMPREGNATED SINTERED BRONZE Anchor Bronze offers oil filled sintered bronze sleeve bearings, flanged bearings, thrust bearings, cored bars, solid bars and plates. Our sintered bronze products conform to ASTM recommended dimensions and tolerances. After forming, sintering and sizing, the bearings are vacuum impregnated with SAE 30 oil that provides lubricant which is metered from the bearing to the shaft during rotation. Standard sintered bronze bearings and wear plates will function satisfactorily in temperatures ranging from 10=BAF to 220=BAF. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 9:33 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings Dan what is oil impregnated actually mean? Jack Textor Sent from my iPhone On Oct 18, 2011, at 7:13 AM, helspersew@aol.com wrote: Jack, McMaster Carr has a full range of oil-impregnated bronze bushings. That is what I used. Dan Helsper Puryear, TN -----Original Message----- From: Gene Rambo Sent: Tue, Oct 18, 2011 6:55 am Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings no problem at all with bronze bushings. Many, many aircraft have them. Roller bearings without a heat treated axle can wear into the axle. do not archive _____ From: jack@textors.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings Group, my wire wheels have a 1 5/8=94 opening and have been fitted with 1 =BD=94 ID bronze bushings. Will this setup alone work with the 1 =BD=94 axle? I would rather utilize some type of a roller bearing but have not found any with such a small wall thickness. It seems to me with just bushings the friction could be a problem. Thanks, Jack DSM st" target="_blank"> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com ="_blank"> http://www.matronics.com/contribution " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========= >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ========= ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ========= http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribut ion ========= http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:24:47 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Copperstate From: "AircamperN11MS" Hi Mike, I considered it but now have other plans. You should have great weather. -------- Scott Liefeld Flying N11MS since March 1972 Steel Tube C-85-12 Wire Wheels Brodhead in 1996 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355430#355430 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:31:04 AM PST US From: "Gboothe5" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings Bearings vs. bushings=85you=92re giving Bill Church an apoplexy=85 Gary from Cool From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 10:09 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings You got me Jack! I do like Hofmann=92s answer though. Thanks to all for your input and offer to machine! Next question, yes I Googled, is there a way to tell the difference between pregnant and sterile bearings? I=92m guessing mine are sterile. Jack DSM _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Phillips Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 8:57 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings Try googling it, Jack. OIL IMPREGNATED SINTERED BRONZE Anchor Bronze offers oil filled sintered bronze sleeve bearings, flanged bearings, thrust bearings, cored bars, solid bars and plates. Our sintered bronze products conform to ASTM recommended dimensions and tolerances. After forming, sintering and sizing, the bearings are vacuum impregnated with SAE 30 oil that provides lubricant which is metered from the bearing to the shaft during rotation. Standard sintered bronze bearings and wear plates will function satisfactorily in temperatures ranging from 10=BAF to 220=BAF. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 9:33 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings Dan what is oil impregnated actually mean? Jack Textor Sent from my iPhone On Oct 18, 2011, at 7:13 AM, helspersew@aol.com wrote: Jack, McMaster Carr has a full range of oil-impregnated bronze bushings. That is what I used. Dan Helsper Puryear, TN -----Original Message----- From: Gene Rambo Sent: Tue, Oct 18, 2011 6:55 am Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings no problem at all with bronze bushings. Many, many aircraft have them. Roller bearings without a heat treated axle can wear into the axle. do not archive _____ From: jack@textors.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings Group, my wire wheels have a 1 5/8=94 opening and have been fitted with 1 =BD=94 ID bronze bushings. Will this setup alone work with the 1 =BD=94 axle? I would rather utilize some type of a roller bearing but have not found any with such a small wall thickness. It seems to me with just bushings the friction could be a problem. Thanks, Jack DSM st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========= >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ========= ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ========= http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribut ion ========= http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:30 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Another "New To List" Guy From: "Bryan Reed" David, I have had those same concerns. That is the main reason I was only looking for the 16" to 18" spokes. I will be landing on concrete or pavement here most of the time. On grass there is a lot of slip so loads do not transfer as forcefully to wheel side load. A warm day here in monsoon season and you can regularly encounter a lot of X-wind. In the old 172 it was not uncommon to actually be pushed sideways across the runway. I am concerned the taller the wheel the greater the chance of the spokes buckling. Is this a concern at all? Has this ever been a problem on the 21" spoke wheels? Of course this is pending the physical limits for crosswind on the Piet. That would also be helpful info from you veteran Piet flyers. Thanks for any input, Bryan -------- While I may not always be right, I apologize well. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355434#355434 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:47:42 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wire Wheel Bearings From: "AircamperN11MS" I've got brass bushings in mine. They work great. Just don't fit them too tight and keep them greased well. -------- Scott Liefeld Flying N11MS since March 1972 Steel Tube C-85-12 Wire Wheels Brodhead in 1996 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355436#355436 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:55:31 AM PST US From: "Gboothe5" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheels Bryan, Some will say, "Yes"; some will say, "No." Mine are 21" Harley Sportster wheels...very heavy duty (note: 'heavy', weighing about 21 lbs!). I inserted a solid 1" axle and use bearings designed for motorcycles, for which the wheels were modified (www.paughco.com). Gary from Cool -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan Reed Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 10:38 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Another "New To List" Guy David, I have had those same concerns. That is the main reason I was only looking for the 16" to 18" spokes. I will be landing on concrete or pavement here most of the time. On grass there is a lot of slip so loads do not transfer as forcefully to wheel side load. A warm day here in monsoon season and you can regularly encounter a lot of X-wind. In the old 172 it was not uncommon to actually be pushed sideways across the runway. I am concerned the taller the wheel the greater the chance of the spokes buckling. Is this a concern at all? Has this ever been a problem on the 21" spoke wheels? Of course this is pending the physical limits for crosswind on the Piet. That would also be helpful info from you veteran Piet flyers. Thanks for any input, Bryan -------- While I may not always be right, I apologize well. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355434#355434 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:56:39 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Another "New To List" Guy Bryan, I've got about 260 hours on my 21" wheels. More than half of that time was operating off paved runways, with one (forced) landing on a road where I hit hard enough to break the axle. No damage to the wheel, other than a few scratches as the brakeline drug it along the road. I didn't even have to tweak the spokes to true it up after the accident. I've flown it a few times in more of a crosswind than I liked, the stiffest being a little over 20 knots direct crosswind on a paved runway. Landing was fine. Taking off was another matter. I kept the tail down to keep tailwheel steering as long as possible, because at slow speeds the rudder would not be strong enough to keep it from weather-vaning. However, in the 3-point attitude as it got light the wind was strong enough to literally push the tires sideways across the runway, with the tires screeching in protest. I let it push me near the edge and then got the tail up and just weather-vaned it into the wind and took off across the runway (more like 45=B0 to the runway). Again, no problems for the wheels. Wire wheels are just about the strongest wheel you can make. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia (a paved runway) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan Reed Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 1:38 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Another "New To List" Guy David, I have had those same concerns. That is the main reason I was only looking for the 16" to 18" spokes. I will be landing on concrete or pavement here most of the time. On grass there is a lot of slip so loads do not transfer as forcefully to wheel side load. A warm day here in monsoon season and you can regularly encounter a lot of X-wind. In the old 172 it was not uncommon to actually be pushed sideways across the runway. I am concerned the taller the wheel the greater the chance of the spokes buckling. Is this a concern at all? Has this ever been a problem on the 21" spoke wheels? Of course this is pending the physical limits for crosswind on the Piet. That would also be helpful info from you veteran Piet flyers. Thanks for any input, Bryan -------- While I may not always be right, I apologize well. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355434#355434 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 12:00:52 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings Oil Impregnated bearings (also called Oilite Bearings, after the brand name of one of the first companies to make them) have a distinct oily feel to them. If you set them on a clean paper towel and leave them for an hour you should see a bit of oil on the paper towel. Also, since they are made from sintered powdered bronze, if you look at them under a microscope they are not perfectly smooth like plain bronze would be after machining. They look (and are) slightly porous. Or, to beat John Hofmann to it, the impregnated ones are a little larger and crave ice cream. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 1:09 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings You got me Jack! I do like Hofmann=92s answer though. Thanks to all for your input and offer to machine! Next question, yes I Googled, is there a way to tell the difference between pregnant and sterile bearings? I=92m guessing mine are sterile. Jack DSM _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Phillips Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 8:57 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings Try googling it, Jack. OIL IMPREGNATED SINTERED BRONZE Anchor Bronze offers oil filled sintered bronze sleeve bearings, flanged bearings, thrust bearings, cored bars, solid bars and plates. Our sintered bronze products conform to ASTM recommended dimensions and tolerances. After forming, sintering and sizing, the bearings are vacuum impregnated with SAE 30 oil that provides lubricant which is metered from the bearing to the shaft during rotation. Standard sintered bronze bearings and wear plates will function satisfactorily in temperatures ranging from 10=BAF to 220=BAF. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 9:33 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings Dan what is oil impregnated actually mean? Jack Textor Sent from my iPhone On Oct 18, 2011, at 7:13 AM, helspersew@aol.com wrote: Jack, McMaster Carr has a full range of oil-impregnated bronze bushings. That is what I used. Dan Helsper Puryear, TN -----Original Message----- From: Gene Rambo Sent: Tue, Oct 18, 2011 6:55 am Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings no problem at all with bronze bushings. Many, many aircraft have them. Roller bearings without a heat treated axle can wear into the axle. do not archive _____ From: jack@textors.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings Group, my wire wheels have a 1 5/8=94 opening and have been fitted with 1 =BD=94 ID bronze bushings. Will this setup alone work with the 1 =BD=94 axle? I would rather utilize some type of a roller bearing but have not found any with such a small wall thickness. It seems to me with just bushings the friction could be a problem. Thanks, Jack DSM st" target="_blank"> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com ="_blank"> http://www.matronics.com/contribution " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========= >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ========= ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ========= http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribut ion ========= http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 12:51:11 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Another "New To List" Guy From: Bryan Reed Thanks Jack, I was not in a hurry to give up the cool look that the tall spokes added .. I am also pleased at the crosswind capabilities. I was hoping the reduced surface area of the sides offset the light weight Piet. Now if only my plans would arrive I could just get on with the building and quit asking stupid questions. I received the booklet with a re-publish of the 1931 plans as a dedication to Bernard Pietenpol last Friday. I am hoping the rest is soon to follow. Bryan On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Jack Phillips wro te: > ** ** > > ****Bryan****,**** > > ** ** > > I've got about 260 hours on my 21" wheels. More than half of that time w as > operating off paved runways, with one (forced) landing on a road where I hit > hard enough to break the axle. No damage to the wheel, other than a few > scratches as the brakeline drug it along the road. I didn't even have to > tweak the spokes to true it up after the accident.**** > > ** ** > > I've flown it a few times in more of a crosswind than I liked, the stiffe st > being a little over 20 knots direct crosswind on a paved runway. Landing > was fine. Taking off was another matter. I kept the tail down to keep > tailwheel steering as long as possible, because at slow speeds the rudder > would not be strong enough to keep it from weather-vaning. However, in t he > 3-point attitude as it got light the wind was strong enough to literally > push the tires sideways across the runway, with the tires screeching in > protest. I let it push me near the edge and then got the tail up and jus t > weather-vaned it into the wind and took off across the runway (more like 45=B0 > to the runway). Again, no problems for the wheels. Wire wheels are just > about the strongest wheel you can make.**** > > ** ** > > Jack Phillips**** > > NX899JP**** > > Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia (a paved runway)**** > > ** ** > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan Reed > Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 1:38 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Another "New To List" Guy > > ** ** > > > ** ** > > David,**** > > ** ** > > I have had those same concerns. That is the main reason I was only > looking for the 16" to 18" spokes. I will be landing on concrete or pavem ent > here most of the time. On grass there is a lot of slip so loads do not > transfer as forcefully to wheel side load. A warm day here in monsoon sea son > and you can regularly encounter a lot of X-wind. In the old 172 it was no t > uncommon to actually be pushed sideways across the runway. I am concerned > the taller the wheel the greater the chance of the spokes buckling. **** > > **** > > Is this a concern at all? Has this ever been a problem on the 21" spoke > wheels? **** > > Of course this is pending the physical limits for crosswind on the Piet .. > That would also be helpful info from you veteran Piet flyers.**** > > ** ** > > Thanks for any input,**** > > ** ** > > ****Bryan******** > > ** ** > > --------**** > > While I may not always be right, I apologize well.**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > Read this topic online here:**** > > ** ** > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355434#355434**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:03:20 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings From: Jack Looks like mine are sterile or virgin. Thanks Jack! Do not archive Jack Textor Sent from my iPhone On Oct 18, 2011, at 1:57 PM, "Jack Phillips" wrote: > Oil Impregnated bearings (also called Oilite Bearings, after the brand nam e of one of the first companies to make them) have a distinct oily feel to t hem. If you set them on a clean paper towel and leave them for an hour you s hould see a bit of oil on the paper towel. Also, since they are made from s intered powdered bronze, if you look at them under a microscope they are not perfectly smooth like plain bronze would be after machining. They look (an d are) slightly porous. > > Or, to beat John Hofmann to it, the impregnated ones are a little larger a nd crave ice cream. > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-li st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack > Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 1:09 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings > > You got me Jack! I do like Hofmann=99s answer though. Thanks to al l for your input and offer to machine! Next question, yes I Googled, is the re a way to tell the difference between pregnant and sterile bearings? I =99m guessing mine are sterile. > Jack > DSM > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-li st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Phillips > Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 8:57 AM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings > > Try googling it, Jack. > > OIL IMPREGNATED SINTERED BRONZE > > Anchor Bronze offers oil filled sintered bronze sleeve bearings, flanged b earings, thrust bearings, cored bars, solid bars and plates. Our sintered br onze products conform to ASTM recommended dimensions and tolerances. After f orming, sintering and sizing, the bearings are vacuum impregnated with SAE 3 0 oil that provides lubricant which is metered from the bearing to the shaft during rotation. Standard sintered bronze bearings and wear plates will fun ction satisfactorily in temperatures ranging from 10=C2=BAF to 220=C2=BAF. > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-li st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack > Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 9:33 AM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings > > Dan what is oil impregnated actually mean? > > Jack Textor > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 18, 2011, at 7:13 AM, helspersew@aol.com wrote: > >> Jack, >> >> McMaster Carr has a full range of oil-impregnated bronze bushings. That i s what I used. >> >> Dan Helsper >> Puryear, TN >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Gene Rambo >> To: pietenpol-list >> Sent: Tue, Oct 18, 2011 6:55 am >> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings >> >> no problem at all with bronze bushings. Many, many aircraft have them. R oller bearings without a heat treated axle can wear into the axle. >> >> do not archive >> >> From: jack@textors.com >> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings >> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 06:36:13 -0500 >> >> Group, my wire wheels have a 1 5/8=9D opening and have been fitted w ith 1 =C2=BD=9D ID bronze bushings. Will this setup alone work with t he 1 =C2=BD=9D axle? I would rather utilize some type of a roller bea ring but have not found any with such a small wall thickness. It seems to m e with just bushings the friction could be a problem. >> Thanks, >> Jack >> DSM >> >> >> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> http://forums.matronics.com >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> >> >> " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> p://forums.matronics.com >> blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> >> >> ========================= ========= >> >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> ========================= ========= >> ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========================= ========= >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribut ion >> ========================= ========= >> > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > > http://forums.matronics.com > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 01:09:16 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Push Pull Elevator? From: "Chris Rusch" Thanks for all the replies! Barry, i am looking forward to seeing your pictures, thanks. I just applied to the UK piet club, they said i can download there revisions once im a member. They have the lower rudder horn revision as shown above. Does anyone have the elevator loads in lbs? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355456#355456 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 01:09:47 PM PST US From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sheet metal for cowlings and combings. What he said. Although 3003 should not be used for structural parts, it's easier to shape than 2024. If you're not going to be putting any shape into the metal but just bending it and riveting it, I'd probably be inclined to go with the 2024. If you want to actually form your nose bowl, go with the 3003, and make sure you get it in the -H14 (half-hard) hardness. Full soft would be too soft for your needs, and full hard is more difficult to shape, to the point you might as well have used 2024. Jim Ash -----Original Message----- From: helspersew@aol.com Sent: Oct 18, 2011 7:35 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sheet metal for cowlings and combings. I used .032" 3003 for the nose cowl. The way I did it, there were small bump-outs to avoid contact with the engine mount bolt heads, louvers under the engine, and also some very small compound bends around the nose piece. 3003 is soft enough for those things. 2024 .025 was used for the combing to take the passenger abuse. Dan Helsper Puryear, TN Gents, I had a small incident with my Stinson yesterday when a wind gust blew the passenger door open and against the boot cowl causing a small hole. I decided to order a full sheet of material so that after fabricating the patch I will have sufficient mterial remaining for the cowlings of my piet. What material are most using for cowlings? 2024, 6061 or 7075? 032 or 040? Thanks! Scott Knowlton Burlington Ontario ========== -List Email Forum - enpol-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ========== p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - _blank>http://forums.matronics.com ========== p; - List Contribution Web Site - p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:32 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: cool video From: "Chris Rusch" Great Job Douwe! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355457#355457 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 01:36:10 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings What kind of ice cream are they demanding? _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 4:00 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings Looks like mine are sterile or virgin. Thanks Jack! Do not archive Jack Textor Sent from my iPhone On Oct 18, 2011, at 1:57 PM, "Jack Phillips" wrote: Oil Impregnated bearings (also called Oilite Bearings, after the brand name of one of the first companies to make them) have a distinct oily feel to them. If you set them on a clean paper towel and leave them for an hour you should see a bit of oil on the paper towel. Also, since they are made from sintered powdered bronze, if you look at them under a microscope they are not perfectly smooth like plain bronze would be after machining. They look (and are) slightly porous. Or, to beat John Hofmann to it, the impregnated ones are a little larger and crave ice cream. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 1:09 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings You got me Jack! I do like Hofmann=92s answer though. Thanks to all for your input and offer to machine! Next question, yes I Googled, is there a way to tell the difference between pregnant and sterile bearings? I=92m guessing mine are sterile. Jack DSM _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Phillips Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 8:57 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings Try googling it, Jack. OIL IMPREGNATED SINTERED BRONZE Anchor Bronze offers oil filled sintered bronze sleeve bearings, flanged bearings, thrust bearings, cored bars, solid bars and plates. Our sintered bronze products conform to ASTM recommended dimensions and tolerances. After forming, sintering and sizing, the bearings are vacuum impregnated with SAE 30 oil that provides lubricant which is metered from the bearing to the shaft during rotation. Standard sintered bronze bearings and wear plates will function satisfactorily in temperatures ranging from 10=BAF to 220=BAF. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 9:33 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings Dan what is oil impregnated actually mean? Jack Textor Sent from my iPhone On Oct 18, 2011, at 7:13 AM, helspersew@aol.com wrote: Jack, McMaster Carr has a full range of oil-impregnated bronze bushings. That is what I used. Dan Helsper Puryear, TN -----Original Message----- From: Gene Rambo < generambo@msn.com> pietenpol-list@matronics.com> Sent: Tue, Oct 18, 2011 6:55 am Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings no problem at all with bronze bushings. Many, many aircraft have them. Roller bearings without a heat treated axle can wear into the axle. do not archive _____ From: jack@textors.com pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings Group, my wire wheels have a 1 5/8=94 opening and have been fitted with 1 =BD=94 ID bronze bushings. Will this setup alone work with the 1 =BD=94 axle? I would rather utilize some type of a roller bearing but have not found any with such a small wall thickness. It seems to me with just bushings the friction could be a problem. Thanks, Jack DSM st" target="_blank"> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com ="_blank"> http://www.matronics.com/contribution " target=_blank> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List p://forums.matronics.com blank> http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========= > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ========= ums.matronics.com"> http://forums.matronics.com ========= http://www.matronics.com/contribution"> http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========= http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 01:44:34 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wire Wheel Bearings From: "Bill Church" I just Googled "apoplexy" ... Gary wrote: > Bearings vs. bushingsyoure giving Bill Church an apoplexy > > Gary from Cool > do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355461#355461 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:32 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Another "New To List" Guy The GN-1 that crashed last week had V-struts: Not that the struts had anything to do with the accident. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DaveG601XL Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 12:31 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Another "New To List" Guy Bill, I will appreciate and listen to anyones opinion, asked for or not. Now whether I heed that advice or not is another story altogether. As far as the gear goes, that is one of the first things that perplexes me. I am based at a paved runway and the most common places I would fly to are also paved. I have only a little tailwheel time in the logbook, but what I do have is in Cubs and Champs and I was honestly thinking about possibly using Cub gear. OK, slap, slap, I probably deserve that. I am used to how their small round and fat tires work, but I have little idea of how big and thin spoked wheels act. I was a passenger in my brother's spoked Jr. Ace on pavement only once and it seemed to be more squirrelly and even less tolerant of side loads. In the battle between "looks right" and "handles right," I will err towards the latter, but it is certianly tempting that I can just slap some wheels on my current gear and go as opposed to re-doing the whole thing. Opinion! s here are certainly welcome. The second, out of a thousand things, that perplexes me with this project requires a little closer look at the gear attach fittings. Only the front fitting has a lift strut attachment point. Are there any Pietenpol/GN-1's out there where both lift struts attach down at the same point?? I certainly need some help with this one. -------- David Gallagher 601 XL: flying, 200+ hours now Next project: Pietenpol/GN-1 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355417#355417 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 02:23:28 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings From: Jack None yet, will let u know when I impregnate them... Do not archive Jack Textor Sent from my iPhone On Oct 18, 2011, at 3:32 PM, "Jack Phillips" wrote: > What kind of ice cream are they demanding? > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-li st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack > Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 4:00 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings > > Looks like mine are sterile or virgin. Thanks Jack! > Do not archive > > Jack Textor > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 18, 2011, at 1:57 PM, "Jack Phillips" wrot e: > >> Oil Impregnated bearings (also called Oilite Bearings, after the brand na me of one of the first companies to make them) have a distinct oily feel to t hem. If you set them on a clean paper towel and leave them for an hour you s hould see a bit of oil on the paper towel. Also, since they are made from s intered powdered bronze, if you look at them under a microscope they are not perfectly smooth like plain bronze would be after machining. They look (an d are) slightly porous. >> >> Or, to beat John Hofmann to it, the impregnated ones are a little larger a nd crave ice cream. >> >> Jack Phillips >> NX899JP >> Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia >> >> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-l ist-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack >> Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 1:09 PM >> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings >> >> You got me Jack! I do like Hofmann=99s answer though. Thanks to a ll for your input and offer to machine! Next question, yes I Googled, is th ere a way to tell the difference between pregnant and sterile bearings? I =99m guessing mine are sterile. >> Jack >> DSM >> >> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-l ist-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Phillips >> Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 8:57 AM >> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings >> >> Try googling it, Jack. >> >> OIL IMPREGNATED SINTERED BRONZE >> >> Anchor Bronze offers oil filled sintered bronze sleeve bearings, flanged b earings, thrust bearings, cored bars, solid bars and plates. Our sintered br onze products conform to ASTM recommended dimensions and tolerances. After f orming, sintering and sizing, the bearings are vacuum impregnated with SAE 3 0 oil that provides lubricant which is metered from the bearing to the shaft during rotation. Standard sintered bronze bearings and wear plates will fun ction satisfactorily in temperatures ranging from 10=C2=BAF to 220=C2=BAF. >> >> Jack Phillips >> NX899JP >> Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia >> >> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-l ist-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack >> Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 9:33 AM >> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings >> >> Dan what is oil impregnated actually mean? >> >> Jack Textor >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Oct 18, 2011, at 7:13 AM, helspersew@aol.com wrote: >> >>> Jack, >>> >>> McMaster Carr has a full range of oil-impregnated bronze bushings. That i s what I used. >>> >>> Dan Helsper >>> Puryear, TN >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Gene Rambo >>> To: pietenpol-list >>> Sent: Tue, Oct 18, 2011 6:55 am >>> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings >>> >>> no problem at all with bronze bushings. Many, many aircraft have them. Roller bearings without a heat treated axle can wear into the axle. >>> >>> do not archive >>> >>> From: jack@textors.com >>> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings >>> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 06:36:13 -0500 >>> >>> Group, my wire wheels have a 1 5/8=9D opening and have been fitted with 1 =C2=BD=9D ID bronze bushings. Will this setup alone work with the 1 =C2=BD=9D axle? I would rather utilize some type of a roller b earing but have not found any with such a small wall thickness. It seems to me with just bushings the friction could be a problem. >>> Thanks, >>> Jack >>> DSM >>> >>> >>> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >>> http://forums.matronics.com >>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>> >>> >>> >>> " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >>> p://forums.matronics.com >>> blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>> >>> >>> >>> ======================== >>> >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >>> ======================== >>> ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >>> ======================== >>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribu tion >>> ======================== >>> >> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> >> http://forums.matronics.com >> >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> http://forums.matronics.com >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 02:54:11 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Another "New To List" Guy From: "Bill Church" Hey Dave, Don't get me wrong. There's nothing wrong with the split axle landing gear. What I (personally) take issue with is when actual J-3 Cub gear is used on an Aircamper. When the lift struts are not in line with the gear attachment points, it looks wrong, and from an engineering standpoint, it doesn't make sense for the stresses to not follow a continuous path. Because of this discontinuity, I believe the GN-1 gear has a bunch of added structure on the underside of the belly. Back in the day, when John Grega drew up the plans for the GN-1, used Cub parts (including landing gear) were fairly plentiful and inexpensive. Today it is a different story, so most builders end up building the landing gear from scratch. My point here is that if you have to build the gear from scratch, why not build gear that is actually designed for the aircraft it will be installed on, rather than duplicating landing gear that was designed for a different airplane. Now, in your case, you have a unique set of landing gear - straight axle, Jenny-style, but not quite the Pietenpol design. I guess it is a cross between the Pietenpol and Grega designs. I hadn't noticed that the rear attach brackets don't have attachment points for the lift struts, but on second glance, I guess they don't. There have been Air Campers and/or Aircampers built with V struts (like a Cub), but in order to do so, one would need to some analysis to determine the loading, and compensate for the different load paths. I think it would be far easier to either modify or remake the rear attach brackets to incorporate the lift strut attach points. As for tall, skinny wheels or fat wheels, that is a matter of personal preference. If you feel more comfortable with fat tires, then use them. However, most Piets built today will operate (at least part of the time) off of paved strips, and probably about half are built with skinny wheels and half with fat. Both types of wheels work well using the split gear. One thing... if you use fat tires, don't make them too small... Oh there I go again with my opinions. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355470#355470 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 03:17:15 PM PST US From: "Gboothe5" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Another "New To List" Guy .and what kind of engine was that? Not that the engine had anything to do with it.or maybe it did.[shut up, Gary] Gary from Cool From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Phillips Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 2:00 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Another "New To List" Guy The GN-1 that crashed last week had V-struts: Not that the struts had anything to do with the accident. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DaveG601XL Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 12:31 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Another "New To List" Guy Bill, I will appreciate and listen to anyones opinion, asked for or not. Now whether I heed that advice or not is another story altogether. As far as the gear goes, that is one of the first things that perplexes me. I am based at a paved runway and the most common places I would fly to are also paved. I have only a little tailwheel time in the logbook, but what I do have is in Cubs and Champs and I was honestly thinking about possibly using Cub gear. OK, slap, slap, I probably deserve that. I am used to how their small round and fat tires work, but I have little idea of how big and thin spoked wheels act. I was a passenger in my brother's spoked Jr. Ace on pavement only once and it seemed to be more squirrelly and even less tolerant of side loads. In the battle between "looks right" and "handles right," I will err towards the latter, but it is certianly tempting that I can just slap some wheels on my current gear and go as opposed to re-doing the whole thing. Opinion! s here are certainly welcome. The second, out of a thousand things, that perplexes me with this project requires a little closer look at the gear attach fittings. Only the front fitting has a lift strut attachment point. Are there any Pietenpol/GN-1's out there where both lift struts attach down at the same point?? I certainly need some help with this one. -------- David Gallagher 601 XL: flying, 200+ hours now Next project: Pietenpol/GN-1 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355417#355417 ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 04:07:24 PM PST US From: Jeff Wilson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheels I think what most use, and I am using, is the 19 inch motorcycle rim. With tire mounted it measures 24 inches diameter. I'm using the home made hub that is available in the archives (no time to search right now) and it is wider than the normal cycle hubs. Then have it laced at any decent motorcycle shop. Then of course use pregnant bushings to roll em on. Jeff Wilson N899WT (someday) St. Louis, MO Sent from my iPhone On Oct 18, 2011, at 12:51 PM, "Gboothe5" wrote: > > Bryan, > > Some will say, "Yes"; some will say, "No." Mine are 21" Harley Sportster > wheels...very heavy duty (note: 'heavy', weighing about 21 lbs!). I inserted > a solid 1" axle and use bearings designed for motorcycles, for which the > wheels were modified (www.paughco.com). > > Gary from Cool > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan Reed > Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 10:38 AM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Another "New To List" Guy > > > David, > > I have had those same concerns. That is the main reason I was only looking > for the 16" to 18" spokes. I will be landing on concrete or pavement here > most of the time. On grass there is a lot of slip so loads do not transfer > as forcefully to wheel side load. A warm day here in monsoon season and you > can regularly encounter a lot of X-wind. In the old 172 it was not uncommon > to actually be pushed sideways across the runway. I am concerned the taller > the wheel the greater the chance of the spokes buckling. > > Is this a concern at all? Has this ever been a problem on the 21" spoke > wheels? > Of course this is pending the physical limits for crosswind on the Piet. > That would also be helpful info from you veteran Piet flyers. > > Thanks for any input, > > Bryan > > -------- > While I may not always be right, I apologize well. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355434#355434 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 07:16:55 PM PST US From: "Clif Dawson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wire Wheel Bearings Smear them with enough icecream and maybe you won't have too..... So, anyway, I couldn't find wire wheels around here for love or money. Then I realized that since I plan on covering the things what's inside don't matter! All I can say is thank God I actually bought that combo lathe/mill on sale for $1000 even though it cut seriously into the ole budget. It somehow magicaly made a pair of hub extensions and two sets of flanged bronze bushings. Many other things too! Clif None yet, will let u know when I impregnate them... Do not archive Jack Textor ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 07:57:53 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Another "New To List" Guy From: "kevinpurtee" Bryan - I'll 2nd Jack's comments on the wire wheels on concrete. Like Jack, I've got over two DOZEN hours in FBG with several HUNDRED landings on concrete. I've managed landings where the winds were strong enough to require someone to hold the airplane while I got out, during refuel, and when I got back in. Those winds were never straight down the runway, of course. The only issue I've had was with broken spokes. Seems I over-tightened them. We've apparently solved the problem by loosening them. I dragged a wingtip one time and the wheels didn't complain. I had the left gear come loose and dangle during a landing. The airplane ended up on top of the wheel. Again, the wheel showed no signs of distress. Drive on, my friend. Enjoy your pretty, tall, spoked wheels. -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355486#355486 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.