Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:28 AM - Re: Wing rib profile questions (Jack)
2. 04:48 AM - Re: Wing rib profile questions (jarheadpilot82)
3. 05:03 AM - Re: Wing rib profile questions (j_dunavin)
4. 05:15 AM - Re: Wing rib profile questions (Bill Church)
5. 05:44 AM - Re: Wing rib question (Gene Rambo)
6. 07:18 AM - Re: Wing rib question (Michael Perez)
7. 07:31 AM - Re: Undercamber (Woodflier@aol.com)
8. 07:33 AM - Re: Wing rib question (Don Emch)
9. 07:33 AM - RE : Under camber (Woodflier@aol.com)
10. 08:11 AM - Re: Douwe Blumberg (bender)
11. 08:29 AM - Re: Wing rib question (Bill Church)
12. 10:21 AM - Re: Wing rib question (K5YAC)
13. 11:29 AM - Re: Wing rib question (TOM STINEMETZE)
14. 11:41 AM - Re: Wing rib question (Bill Church)
15. 11:54 AM - Re: Wing rib question (K5YAC)
16. 01:19 PM - Re: Re: Wing rib question (Jim Markle)
17. 03:00 PM - Re: Wing rib question (K5YAC)
18. 04:50 PM - Corvair engines for sale-ABE (Pocono John)
19. 05:05 PM - Re: Re: Wing rib question (Ryan Mueller)
20. 07:02 PM - Re: Re: Wing rib question (Steve Emo)
21. 08:10 PM - Re: RE : Under camber (Clif Dawson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Wing rib profile questions |
I labored over this same issue for weeks. I lofted the measurements, traced
existing ribs from other builders and compared with the full-size prints.
The differences were very small. In the end, I averaged the lofted drawing
and full size print. If I remember correctly the difference was most
pronounced in the top front of the airfoil. It's one of those times in the
process you just need to make your decision and get going.
Jack
DSM
N1929T
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of j_dunavin
Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 8:43 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing rib profile questions
I'm ready to make my wing rib jig and would like to use the 1:1 print that
we ordered with the plans. I would like to take a razor, cut it out, and
then trace around it for the jig. However I got to looking at the plans and
then I started taking measurements on the 1:1 drawing, and it does not seem
to match.
Should i not worry about it?
Should i draw the rib on my jig, as per the plans?
Thanks
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| Subject: | Re: Wing rib profile questions |
Is the difference consist at every measurement? If so, then your rib plan needs
to be proportionally resized. You can go to any Kinko's/Fedex Office, and they
can do it. Simply ask them to reprint your plan at 102%, 105%, 107% or whatever
it needs to be.
Or do like Jack says, live with the small difference, and build on.
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
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| Subject: | Re: Wing rib profile questions |
No, Jack is right. Most of the difference is in the front of the wing, and it is
small differences.
I think that I will draw out the wing in Auto Cad, and then place the two side
by side and see what gives.
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| Subject: | Re: Wing rib profile questions |
If you're comfortable with a pencil and ruler and a square, it only takes about
an hour to loft the rib plan onto a nice flat piece of wood (I used MDF, but
good quality plywood will work as well).
If you're not so handy at drafting, before deciding to just "live with the small
difference", the most important dimension to check on your full size rib plot
is the spar-to-spar dimension.
If using the full-size plot, why would you want to cut out the rib profile with
a razor? Just leave it as is, and use spray adhesive to glue the whole plot to
the board, then add positioning blocks on top of the paper, as needed. If you
cut the plan into a narrow strip of paper, you are more likely to end up with
distortions in the rib profile, since a long narrow strip of paper is less stable
than a wider strip.
Bill C.
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| Subject: | Wing rib question |
I have to take issue with the comment that an airfoil with undercamber is "
a pain to cover." It may be=2C only if it is overthought=2C not that this
ever happens on this list! I have heard of guys worrying about gluing to t
he bottom of each rib=2C etc. The truth is=2C just cover the wing normally
. When the fabric is shrunk=2C there is only a very little gap off of the
bottom capstrip. the ribstitching pulls it right down with no problem what
soever. End of problem. Genedo not archive
Date: Sun=2C 13 Nov 2011 17:48:32 -0800
From: n11dmx@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing rib question
John=2C
Just finished my r wing.=2C all my ribs are done.
I made matching 2 x 4 blocks with the curve =2Csoaked the ACS cap strips in
water over night and then clamped them in the "molds" for 24 hrs worked
fine.
Also took out the under camber (a pain to cover.)
I made an outline of the rib on a flat table and used small blocks on both
sides of the cap strip here and there.
Put the outside blocks on the line =2C butspace the inside block about 1/8
ich off the inside line. Take apart these spring loaded clothespins and you
have nice little wedges this will accomadate small variations in cap strip
thickness.
Dave Millikan Starduster Too N11DM and Pete NX1QZ
--- On Mon=2C 11/14/11=2C John Theron <johnnysdrop@googlemail.com> wrote:
From: John Theron <johnnysdrop@googlemail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing rib question
Has anyone had cause to pre bend the lower wing rib section forward of the
front spar or have pre bent it anyway?
John
ollow target=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com
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| Subject: | Re: Wing rib question |
My ribs are the Riblett 612 type. I did not soak or pre-bend my bottom rib
cap strips. However, this airfoil has a more gentle curve underneath.
-
I chose to soak my top cap strip and then place it in a pre-bend jig and th
en finally place it in the rib build jig. I see no issue going from the soa
ker right to the build jig. (Skipping the pre-bend.)
-
Not sure, but I seem to remember talk about the full size rib plan having a
slight flat spot somewhere on the top as compared to the speced-out pictur
e on the plans. Or something to that effect.
Michael Perez
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
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I agree with
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| Subject: | Re: Wing rib question |
Gene... can't agree with you more. Just like any other wing. The rib stitching
will pull it in. Totally a non issue. The undercamber is a key to its low
speed characteristics. Same reason the Aeroncas and many others have a very slight
undercamber.
Don Emch
NX899DE
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| Subject: | RE : Under camber |
I agree with John. Without the under camber, it's a different airfoil.
Might have better characteristics - might have worse but it's different. I
didn't find covering the undercamber difficult if you follow the instructions
in the PolyFiber manual. And, the under camber is a conversation piece.
Matt Paxton
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| Subject: | Re: Douwe Blumberg |
Wow....
Douwe... i'm impressed... beautiful work..
i looked at your website...i had no idea such a great artist lived so near
jeff
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| Subject: | Re: Wing rib question |
Gotta say that changing something as critical as the airfoil, just because one
thinks it will be "a pain to cover" sounds like a drastic course of action to
take, with unknown consequences. Sure hope that anyone considering such a move
would do all of the necessary homework to anticipate all of the repercussions
that would result.
On another note, Michael, you say that the Riblett 612 has a gentler curve underneath
than the Pietenpol FC-10 airfoil. I agree that the undercamber is less
severe, but I believe that there is MORE curvature towards the nose of the rib
(see attached comparison of the two airfoils). Whether this requires pre-bending
is another question. Sounds as though some builders have felt it necessary
and some have not.
Personally, I built the Pietenpol FC-10 ribs, and did not need to pre-bend the
lower capstrips.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357827#357827
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/fc10_vs_ga30ua612_150.pdf
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| Subject: | Re: Wing rib question |
FWIW... I pre-soaked/bent my top and bottom capstrip. Not sure if it was necessary
for the bottoms, but it was a matter of cutting a simple form from a scrap
2x6 and clamping a batch in place every few days when I was building ribs.
Had to do it for the top caps anyway, so I doubt that it added much to my overall
effort. I will say that I didn't have to fight any of the caps on my jig,
and the ribs came out as near to identical as I can tell. If I were to do it
over, I would do it the same.
As for ease of covering... in the early stages of planning I was considering a
cylindrical wing. No bends, no curves, no corners, no sharp edges and I could
just roll them out of the way when I wasn't working on them... the ideal covering
job. But, it got very complicated on the drawing board because I kept confusing
the LE and TE. Not sure how it might have flown, but hey, at least the
covering would have been easy.
--------
Mark Chouinard
Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage
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| Subject: | Re: Wing rib question |
I built a simple pre-soaking rig out of a 2' piece of 2" galvanized pipe
with a cap on one end only. I drilled a hole on the top end and hung the
pipe over my kerosene shop heater. Worked like magic and I did not bother
with prebending - just went right into the jig after wiping off the excess
moisture. I was worried that the water soaked joints might not glue up
correctly so I made some test pieces just to check. The tests did not
seem any different between the soaked pieces and the dry ones. I did
discover one problem later on though. I made a couple of extra ribs about
3-years later using the same pipe. The spruce came out of the pipe just
as plyable but stained a dark grey. Not unattractive but they are sure
going to stand out from the rest. Oh yeah, I only soaked the top piece as
the bottom went in the jig dry without any difficulty.
P.S. Congratulations Shad!
Tom Stinemetze
N328X
>>> "K5YAC" <hangar10@cox.net> 11/14/2011 12:18 PM >>>
FWIW... I pre-soaked/bent my top and bottom capstrip. Not sure if it was
necessary for the bottoms, but it was a matter of cutting a simple form
from a scrap 2x6 and clamping a batch in place every few days when I was
building ribs. Had to do it for the top caps anyway, so I doubt that it
added much to my overall effort. I will say that I didn't have to fight
any of the caps on my jig, and the ribs came out as near to identical as I
can tell. If I were to do it over, I would do it the same.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Wing rib question |
Here's a picture of Mark sitting in his mock-up:
BC
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357850#357850
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/cylinder_128.jpg
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| Subject: | Re: Wing rib question |
It almost worked.
--------
Mark Chouinard
Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357851#357851
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| Subject: | Re: Wing rib question |
Should have gone with the wood fuse....
-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
>Sent: Nov 14, 2011 1:39 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing rib question
>
>
>Here's a picture of Mark sitting in his mock-up:
>
>BC
>
>do not archive
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357850#357850
>
>
>Attachments:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com//files/cylinder_128.jpg
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Wing rib question |
I did go with a wood fuse... I just "Perez'd" the longerons and braces by rounding
them to give the impression of steel tube, therefore offering the worst qualities
I possibly could... heavier AND less strength.
Just kidding Mike.
--------
Mark Chouinard
Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage
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| Subject: | Corvair engines for sale-ABE |
There's a couple of engines for sale in Allentown, PA. Send me a note if you want
the contact info. One engine is a '65 RH. The other is a RM however, he also
has 110 heads you can use to swap out with. As a matter of fact, being a big
collector of Corvair's, he has a lot of parts around.
I may be slow to respond if you write, but I will respond. Below are pictures I
took, first the RH then the RM.
The photos are in reverse order from the way I added them, so look at the file
name to verify if you're looking at the RM or RH.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357883#357883
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rm4_573.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rm3_191.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rm2_158.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rm1_106.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rh4_402.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rh3_194.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rh2_179.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rh1_144.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/corvair_shed_162.jpg
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Wing rib question |
Alter the airfoil
Now you are the test pilot
Good luck and godspeed
DO NOT ARCHIVE
On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:27 AM, Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca>wrote:
> billspiet@sympatico.ca>
>
> Gotta say that changing something as critical as the airfoil, just because
> one thinks it will be "a pain to cover" sounds like a drastic course of
> action to take, with unknown consequences. Sure hope that anyone
> considering such a move would do all of the necessary homework to
> anticipate all of the repercussions that would result.
>
> On another note, Michael, you say that the Riblett 612 has a gentler curve
> underneath than the Pietenpol FC-10 airfoil. I agree that the undercamber
> is less severe, but I believe that there is MORE curvature towards the nose
> of the rib (see attached comparison of the two airfoils). Whether this
> requires pre-bending is another question. Sounds as though some builders
> have felt it necessary and some have not.
>
> Personally, I built the Pietenpol FC-10 ribs, and did not need to pre-bend
> the lower capstrips.
>
> Bill C.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357827#357827
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/fc10_vs_ga30ua612_150.pdf
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Wing rib question |
And aero engineer to that list because you also will alter the center of pre
ssure, etc. So Don't be surprised if you also where the CG is located and w
here the new CG limits should be. May I suggest some wind tunnel tests or s
ome good CFD models, Fluent has some good code that can do this, rather salt
y in price.
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 14, 2011, at 8:02 PM, Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com> wrote:
> Alter the airfoil
> Now you are the test pilot
> Good luck and godspeed
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:27 AM, Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca> wro
te:
a>
>
> Gotta say that changing something as critical as the airfoil, just because
one thinks it will be "a pain to cover" sounds like a drastic course of act
ion to take, with unknown consequences. Sure hope that anyone considering su
ch a move would do all of the necessary homework to anticipate all of the re
percussions that would result.
>
> On another note, Michael, you say that the Riblett 612 has a gentler curve
underneath than the Pietenpol FC-10 airfoil. I agree that the undercamber i
s less severe, but I believe that there is MORE curvature towards the nose o
f the rib (see attached comparison of the two airfoils). Whether this requir
es pre-bending is another question. Sounds as though some builders have felt
it necessary and some have not.
>
> Personally, I built the Pietenpol FC-10 ribs, and did not need to pre-bend
the lower capstrips.
>
> Bill C.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357827#357827
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/fc10_vs_ga30ua612_150.pdf
>
>
>
>
> ==========
> ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
> ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
> et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> le, List Admin.
> ==========
> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: RE : Under camber |
So why does the "FC-10" airfoil have this undercamber
anyway? After all, it is a bit more difficult to build ribs
and cover the wing. Do you really think someone as
smart as BP would do this if he hadn't found it
necessary? The undercamber makes for a lot more
slow speed lift. Something to compensate for the
Fords low horsepower. He built and tested a number
of wings with other airfoils. None were satisfactory.
This one was.
Here's a little something from our esteemed Transport
Canada that you can play with.
We all assume that the Ford is forty hp but apparently
not;
http://www.amuffler.com/dyno/dyno1.htm
Clif
I agree with John. Without the under camber, it's a different airfoil.
Might have better characteristics - might have worse but it's different.
Matt Paxton
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
11/13/11
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