Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:09 AM - Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done! (Kringle)
2. 04:43 AM - Re: Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done! (Greg Cardinal)
3. 05:07 AM - Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. (Michael Perez)
4. 05:10 AM - Re: Off topic frivolity and edification request (Michael Perez)
5. 05:25 AM - Re: Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done! (Jim Markle)
6. 05:55 AM - Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. (tools)
7. 06:04 AM - Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. (Bryan Reed)
8. 06:06 AM - Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. (helspersew@aol.com)
9. 06:07 AM - Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. (Bryan Reed)
10. 06:25 AM - Re: Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done! (Gboothe5)
11. 06:31 AM - Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. (C N Campbell)
12. 06:40 AM - Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. (Gboothe5)
13. 07:11 AM - Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. (John Hofmann)
14. 07:12 AM - Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. (Jack Phillips)
15. 07:18 AM - Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. (tools)
16. 07:26 AM - Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. (tools)
17. 07:55 AM - Re: What Really Happened to Air France 447 (tools)
18. 08:15 AM - Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done! (namrednos)
19. 08:18 AM - Re: Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. (Jack Phillips)
20. 08:24 AM - Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. (Michael Perez)
21. 08:37 AM - Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. (tools)
22. 09:07 AM - Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. (Jack Phillips)
23. 09:37 AM - Re: Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done! (Hans Van Der Voort)
24. 09:44 AM - Pietenpol Tail Aerodynamics (Michael Perez)
25. 10:00 AM - Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. (Piet2112)
26. 10:27 AM - Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done! (Catdesigns)
27. 10:53 AM - Re: Pietenpol Tail Aerodynamics (C N Campbell)
28. 11:07 AM - Re: Pietenpol Tail Aerodynamics (Gerry Holland)
29. 11:18 AM - Re: Pietenpol Tail Aerodynamics (Michael Perez)
30. 11:23 AM - Re: Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done! (gcardinal@comcast.net)
31. 12:08 PM - Re: Pietenpol Tail Aerodynamics (Bill Church)
32. 12:19 PM - Re: Pietenpol Tail Aerodynamics (gboothe5@comcast.net)
33. 01:56 PM - Re: Pietenpol Tail Aerodynamics (Lloyd Smith)
34. 02:01 PM - Re: Pietenpol Tail Aerodynamics (Lloyd Smith)
35. 02:24 PM - CG shift answer. (tools)
36. 02:36 PM - Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done! (Kringle)
37. 03:17 PM - Re: Off topic frivolity and edification request (V Groah)
38. 03:56 PM - Re: Pietenpol Tail Aerodynamics (airlion)
39. 08:54 PM - Re: Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done! (Darrel Jones)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done! |
During the holidays i will be building some work tables. I will probably just
use a standard 2x4 for the legs. I would like to install casters but don't like
the plates or pin type as either wouldn't work well on the end of the 2x4.
I understand the pins will wear the wood quickly and the plates are too large
and i don't like screwing into the end grain of a 2x4. If i can't do casters
i would at least like to find a cap for the ends of the 2x4's that would prevent
the wood from splintering when the bench is drug along the floor. Any suggestions?
--------
Do Not Archive
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360503#360503
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done! |
Simply cut a bevel on each of the four corners of each 2X4. No more
splintering.
Greg Cardinal
Minneapolis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kringle" <Mrkringles@msn.com>
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 5:06 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done!
>
> During the holidays i will be building some work tables. I will probably
> just use a standard 2x4 for the legs. I would like to install casters but
> don't like the plates or pin type as either wouldn't work well on the end
> of the 2x4. I understand the pins will wear the wood quickly and the
> plates are too large and i don't like screwing into the end grain of a
> 2x4. If i can't do casters i would at least like to find a cap for the
> ends of the 2x4's that would prevent the wood from splintering when the
> bench is drug along the floor. Any suggestions?
>
> --------
> Do Not Archive
> John
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360503#360503
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. |
I will be working my first W&B in the (maybe) near future so this post is timely
for me. I only have one comment. Since the horizontal stabilizer/elevators have
little to no air foil shape and that shape is the same on bot top and bottom,
there will not be a pressure difference. At these locations, it should not
matter on what side the gap seal tape is applied.
If the tail was shaped like the wing, then any tape on the top would want to pull
up off of the surface...the low pressure top of the wing relative to the higher
pressure underneath.
Michael Perez
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Off topic frivolity and edification request |
Well, Ken, I hate to see you go. Too bad you are bailing out of the Pietenp
ol community, but I understand your position.--
Michael Perez
=0AKaretaker Aero
=0Awww.karetakeraero.com
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done! |
Wow, this one goes in my "Cool stuff I've learned" file!
Thank you Greg.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Greg Cardinal <gcardinal@comcast.net>
>Sent: Dec 9, 2011 7:42 AM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done!
>
>
>Simply cut a bevel on each of the four corners of each 2X4. No more
>splintering.
>
>Greg Cardinal
>Minneapolis
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Kringle" <Mrkringles@msn.com>
>To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 5:06 AM
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done!
>
>
>>
>> During the holidays i will be building some work tables. I will probably
>> just use a standard 2x4 for the legs. I would like to install casters but
>> don't like the plates or pin type as either wouldn't work well on the end
>> of the 2x4. I understand the pins will wear the wood quickly and the
>> plates are too large and i don't like screwing into the end grain of a
>> 2x4. If i can't do casters i would at least like to find a cap for the
>> ends of the 2x4's that would prevent the wood from splintering when the
>> bench is drug along the floor. Any suggestions?
>>
>> --------
>> Do Not Archive
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360503#360503
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. |
Well, while it's flat, it's still a "wing". The differential shape comes when
the elevators are deflected, or even when aligned (or "flat") the lift comes from
it's own little angle of attack.
Airplanes are nose heavy. If the tail wasn't there, the nose would drop. The
fact it "holds" the nose up (even in level flight) means that there is lower pressure
on the bottom, higher on the top, to create that force.
Stick your hand out the window of your car while driving. Angle it this way and
that, you'll feel the force on the top or bottom respectively.
The horiz stab/elevators only produce lift the other way when nose down pitch in
excess of what gravity can provide, is needed.
In the flare, you are at your slowest, but still need to keep the nose from dropping
(or even need to bring it up at the last second to establish the correct
touch down attitude), so more deflection is needed to provide more lift to compensate
for the slower airspeed. It will either stall or simply run out of enough
deflection to do that. Hopefully you've touched down by then.
The rudder acts the same way, but provides lift on one side nearly the same as
it does the other, so taping one side over the other is pointless.
Still doesn't mean I'm right about the tape on the elevator...!
Tools
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360513#360513
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. |
Michael,
Even a symmetrical wing will generate lift. It is the angle of attack that will
cause the airflow over the top of the wing to travel farther and thus create
a lower pressure area. By designing a wing with additional distance naturally
it creates more lift but will also produce more induced drag. Many sailplanes
and most aerobatic planes have symmetrical wings. Most high performance aircraft
will also have nearly symmetrical wings to limit induced drag. The swept
wing design also further reduces induced drag.
A stable aircraft is nose heavy thus in level flight the elevator must cause
the lift to occur from the top of the horizontal stab, pushing down and therefor
lifting the heavier nose of the plane. To accomplish this we will apply up
elevator. The longer air travel and thus low pressure zone is at the bottom of
the horizontal stabilizer and elevator. It is this necessary induced tail drag
of stable aircraft that led to the V-tail Bonanza design. Having flown the
V-tail I can tell you that is has an uncomfortable loosey goosey feel from the
tail with that design. Pilot discomfort with that feeling during flight is what
led them to return to the normal tail configuration.
See ya,
Bryan
--------
Working Piet N5289B
While I may not always be right, I apologize well.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360515#360515
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. |
I haven't seen too many (none that I can recall) elevator gap seals at Brod
head. Is this really necessary? Just wondering.
Dan Helsper
Puryear, TN
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:07 am
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap
seal.
I will be working my first W&B in the (maybe) near future so this post is t
imely for me. I only have one comment. Since the horizontal stabilizer/elev
ators have little to no air foil shape and that shape is the same on bot to
p and bottom, there will not be a pressure difference. At these locations,
it should not matter on what side the gap seal tape is applied.
If the tail was shaped like the wing, then any tape on the top would want t
o pull up off of the surface...the low pressure top of the wing relative to
the higher pressure underneath.
Michael Perez
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
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Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. |
Sorry Tool,-Is that really what people call you? : )
I see you beat me to it with a more eloquent explanation.
Cheers,
Bryan
--------
Working Piet N5289B
While I may not always be right, I apologize well.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360516#360516
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done! |
Mr. Kringles,
Greg is absolutely right about preventing the splintering, but you also said that
you wanted castors. I'm not sure I that I share your concern about the plate
types pulling out. You could certainly pre-drill and use an extra long screw,
or go to the work of inserting wood dowels that the screws would pass thru....
....but, why not place a 2x4 flat on to the two bottoms of the end legs (you can
gusset for strength), then fasten your plate castors to the flat 2x4. Just a
thought, too: consider buying castors with brakes (maybe you already did). The
flattened 2x4's could be the beginning of a shelf support...
No matter what, be sure to send us a picture of your moveable workbench when you're
done! Is this for a Christmas present?
Gary from Cool
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Markle
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 5:23 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done!
Wow, this one goes in my "Cool stuff I've learned" file!
Thank you Greg.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Greg Cardinal <gcardinal@comcast.net>
>Sent: Dec 9, 2011 7:42 AM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done!
>
>
>Simply cut a bevel on each of the four corners of each 2X4. No more
>splintering.
>
>Greg Cardinal
>Minneapolis
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Kringle" <Mrkringles@msn.com>
>To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 5:06 AM
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done!
>
>
>>
>> During the holidays i will be building some work tables. I will probably
>> just use a standard 2x4 for the legs. I would like to install casters but
>> don't like the plates or pin type as either wouldn't work well on the end
>> of the 2x4. I understand the pins will wear the wood quickly and the
>> plates are too large and i don't like screwing into the end grain of a
>> 2x4. If i can't do casters i would at least like to find a cap for the
>> ends of the 2x4's that would prevent the wood from splintering when the
>> bench is drug along the floor. Any suggestions?
>>
>> --------
>> Do Not Archive
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360503#360503
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. |
How about using full-length piano hinge on the elevators. That would
give a gap seal at the top -- don't have a suggestion for the bottom. C
----- Original Message -----
From: helspersew@aol.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: CG shift common sense check.
Elevator/stab gap seal.
I haven't seen too many (none that I can recall) elevator gap seals at
Brodhead. Is this really necessary? Just wondering.
Dan Helsper
Puryear, TN
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
To: pietenpol-list <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:07 am
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: CG shift common sense check.
Elevator/stab gap seal.
I will be working my first W&B in the (maybe) near future so
this post is timely for me. I only have one comment. Since the
horizontal stabilizer/elevators have little to no air foil shape and
that shape is the same on bot top and bottom, there will not be a
pressure difference. At these locations, it should not matter on what
side the gap seal tape is applied.
If the tail was shaped like the wing, then any tape on the top
would want to pull up off of the surface...the low pressure top of the
wing relative to the higher pressure underneath.
Michael Perez
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
_blank>www.aeroelectric.com
/" target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com
=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
p://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 12
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| Subject: | CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. |
I have certainly heard that ailerons would improve with gap seals (or
continuous hinges), but I don't recall anyone saying that they wished they
had more elevator.
Gary from Cool
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of C N Campbell
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 6:29 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap
seal.
How about using full-length piano hinge on the elevators. That would give a
gap seal at the top -- don't have a suggestion for the bottom. C
----- Original Message -----
From: helspersew@aol.com
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap
seal.
I haven't seen too many (none that I can recall) elevator gap seals at
Brodhead. Is this really necessary? Just wondering.
Dan Helsper
Puryear, TN
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:07 am
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap
seal.
I will be working my first W&B in the (maybe) near future so this post is
timely for me. I only have one comment. Since the horizontal
stabilizer/elevators have little to no air foil shape and that shape is the
same on bot top and bottom, there will not be a pressure difference. At
these locations, it should not matter on what side the gap seal tape is
applied.
If the tail was shaped like the wing, then any tape on the top would want to
pull up off of the surface...the low pressure top of the wing relative to
the higher pressure underneath.
Michael Perez
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com <http://www.karetakeraero.com/>
_blank>www.aeroelectric.com
/" target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com
=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com
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" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
p://forums.matronics.com
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href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref
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Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. |
I have gap seals on 502R's elevator. I have not flown one without the
seal so can't comment on difference.
do not archive
John Hofmann
Vice-President, Information Technology
The Rees Group, Inc.
2424 American Lane
Madison, WI 53704
Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150
Fax: 608.443.2474
Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com
On Dec 9, 2011, at 8:38 AM, Gboothe5 wrote:
> I have certainly heard that ailerons would improve with gap seals (or
continuous hinges), but I don=92t recall anyone saying that they wished
they had more elevator.
>
> Gary from Cool
>
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of C N
Campbell
> Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 6:29 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: CG shift common sense check.
Elevator/stab gap seal.
>
> How about using full-length piano hinge on the elevators. That would
give a gap seal at the top -- don't have a suggestion for the bottom. C
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: helspersew@aol.com
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 9:04 AM
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: CG shift common sense check.
Elevator/stab gap seal.
>
> I haven't seen too many (none that I can recall) elevator gap seals at
Brodhead. Is this really necessary? Just wondering.
>
> Dan Helsper
> Puryear, TN
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
> To: pietenpol-list <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:07 am
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: CG shift common sense check.
Elevator/stab gap seal.
>
> I will be working my first W&B in the (maybe) near future so this post
is timely for me. I only have one comment. Since the horizontal
stabilizer/elevators have little to no air foil shape and that shape is
the same on bot top and bottom, there will not be a pressure difference.
At these locations, it should not matter on what side the gap seal tape
is applied.
>
> If the tail was shaped like the wing, then any tape on the top would
want to pull up off of the surface...the low pressure top of the wing
relative to the higher pressure underneath.
>
> Michael Perez
> Karetaker Aero
> www.karetakeraero.com
>
>
> _blank>www.aeroelectric.com
> /" target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com
> =_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com
> blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> p://forums.matronics.com
> blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
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| Subject: | CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. |
I put gap seals (duct tape) on mine a couple of years ago. They fell off
(well, one did so I removed the other) on the way to Brodhead this summer.
There was a noticeable effect, but not much. What I noticed is that with
the elevator gaps sealed, I could lift the tail sooner on takeoff. It also
affected my trim somewhat. I have a spring-type trim system, and with the
gaps sealed, I ran out of nose up trim and still needed to hold a slight bit
of back pressure when I had a load in the baggage compartment (I have a nose
baggage compartment on my Pietenpol, since my fuel tank is in the
centersection). When the seals were removed, my trim spring was strong
enough to give me all the back pressure I needed, even with a load up front.
In regards to the recent discussion about the function of tails, the
horizontal tail provides downforce to hold the typical nose heavy airplane
level. in the case of most Pietenpols (and every one that I have flown), if
you look at the horizontal tail in flight, you will see a slight bit of down
elevator, indicating that the tail is actually providing a bit of lift.
This is likely a function of the Pietenpol's airfoil, and of the fact that
many Pietenpols (mine included) are flown with the CG near the aft edge of
the envelope. Adding gap seals apparently increases that tail lift force,
requiring more back pressure (or less forward pressure) to hold the plane in
level flight.
Here are a couple of pictures showing Pietenpols in level flight, showing
the slight down elevator:
Here is my Pietenpol in flight. You can see a slight down elevator (not
much, since I have my wife and a full load of baggage).
And here is Mike Cuy's, on the way to Brodhead, back in 2005:
Here is Greg Cardinal's
And here is another one (don't know who owns this one):
All show a similar amount of down elevator.
So in answer to which side the tape should go on, I put mine on the bottom,
not for aerodynamic reasons, but because a strip of grey duct tape is ugly.
To each his own.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
helspersew@aol.com
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap
seal.
I haven't seen too many (none that I can recall) elevator gap seals at
Brodhead. Is this really necessary? Just wondering.
Dan Helsper
Puryear, TN
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:07 am
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap
seal.
I will be working my first W&B in the (maybe) near future so this post is
timely for me. I only have one comment. Since the horizontal
stabilizer/elevators have little to no air foil shape and that shape is the
same on bot top and bottom, there will not be a pressure difference. At
these locations, it should not matter on what side the gap seal tape is
applied.
If the tail was shaped like the wing, then any tape on the top would want to
pull up off of the surface...the low pressure top of the wing relative to
the higher pressure underneath.
Michael Perez
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com <http://www.karetakeraero.com/>
_blank>www.aeroelectric.com
/" target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com
=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com
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" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
p://forums.matronics.com
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Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. |
Hey Bryan,
Yep, people call me Tools. It was my callsign during the glory days (Navy pilot).
You can call me that, Mike, many call me Dan (presumably because my last
name is Danford, though my dad never got that, he's Gary...) and there's some
we won't mention here! I've always had nicknames as there was always a number
of Mikes in the class.
Sealing the gap will help if you need more elevator authority, as it makes it more
efficient and helps generate more lift, just like the ailerons.
I was just wondering if folks found not enough (or a feeling like they wish they
had more) elevator authority after making a CG shift like I'm going to. I really
don't think it is going to be a problem, but also thought asking couldn't
hurt.
Dan, I didn't see many sealed elevator gaps either, though I did a few, this one
being one of them (it's been to Brodhead a number of years). Dick may have
sealed the gap in his other Piet as well.
I'm going to seal the gap, was just looking to see if my thinking on where tape
should be (if you're using tape), was correct and I believe it is.
You only need to seal one side, as the purpose is to prevent air from going through
the gap, it isn't a parasitic drag thing.
Tools
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360526#360526
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| Subject: | Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. |
Oh, by the way, and just for fun. I weighed the plane "empty" (not FAA empty weight,
just without a pilot or pax) and did a balance computation.
It came in at like 14". Someone told me the range for this plane is 12 to 20".
If that's so, it looks like it would be safe to fly from the front only. I'm
not going to do that, but just wouldn't have guessed that to be the case.
Someone else mentioned 15 to 20, and that was in agreement of the standard percentage
range nearly all airplanes seem to conform with. So I'm not really convinced
about the "safeness" of flying solo from the front.
I am going to learn to fly from the front, but only so I can teach my son. I have
a friend around here who's a taildragger CFI I'll get to ride in the back
while I give it a go. Should be fun!
Tools
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360528#360528
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| Subject: | Re: What Really Happened to Air France 447 |
Wow, very interesting and near and dear to my heart. First, I flew a B767-300ER
out of Rio within days both before and after that disaster.
Second, I just got qualified (since the finding of the black boxes) in a A330 and
never heard ANY of this.
First, you almost NEVER really hand fly a A330. Even with the auto pilot off,
you are in less than "fly by wire". The flight control automation STILL won't
give you direct control of the flight surfaces. Even in some forms of alternate
law, the plane shouldn't stall.
We definitely don't practice hand flying. Period. We do some of this and that
through initial training, but not during recurrent training. And we certainly
don't do ANYTHING that would prepare you for this sort of ordeal.
There is no problem with "who is in control" as alluded to because there were two
first officers.
The A330 is CRAZY complex. I do believe this would be VERY much less likely with
a Boeing, because of synchronous controls and such. Not that the 330 is a
bad plane, it's not. It's UNBELIEVABLY impressive. While there is a stall warning,
there is no "warning" that the plane is in other than normal law. Well,
nothing like a GPWS warning, stall warning or something like that. It's rather
difficult to tell what phase the flight controls are in, oddly enough. It
isn't considered a big deal because practically NO CARRIER has had a plane operate
in other than normal law.
A result of extreme reliability I suppose.
I have to say, I was a bit worried about going to fly the 330 because my hand flying
skills would deteriorate. However, I bought my Piet the same time I started
training and I definitely feel better because of it. There is a lot to be
learned from this mishap for ALL pilots.
I think the article (if accurate, and nothing really stands out to the contrary,
though some of their conclusions aren't quite right, nothing that would lead
anyone astray though) is very useful for even us low and slow guys.
I had a student once lose his airspeed indicator. I was leading 3 other solo students
in a 4 plane formation flight. Dash two, told me after takeoff his airspeed
indicator wasn't working. It was clear and a million (as it has to be
for a flight like that with students). He sounded good, made the right call to
let me know, even though I don't need to, it isn't a big deal. It was about
then as i was acknowledging him I noticed he was a little more shaken about it
than I wold have thought, as his gear was still down!
The point is, you might be amazed at how even small distractions affect you more
than you might realize. In most phases of life, things aren't so critical that
it would manifest itself at all, but definitely less so with flying.
Tools
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| Subject: | Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done! |
I built my tables in 8ft sections. Each table uses 1 piece of plywood which can
be cut at Lowes or any box store with a panel saw. I glued and screwed a 12"
long 2x4 under each leg and then mounted a plate style caster.
Do Not Archive
Scott
--------
Scott
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360532#360532
Attachments:
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| Subject: | Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap |
seal.
Do you have brakes in the front?
Not sure why you would want to fly from the front, unless for instruction.
Visibility is better from the rear.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tools
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 10:25 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap
seal.
Oh, by the way, and just for fun. I weighed the plane "empty" (not FAA
empty weight, just without a pilot or pax) and did a balance computation.
It came in at like 14". Someone told me the range for this plane is 12 to
20". If that's so, it looks like it would be safe to fly from the front
only. I'm not going to do that, but just wouldn't have guessed that to be
the case.
Someone else mentioned 15 to 20, and that was in agreement of the standard
percentage range nearly all airplanes seem to conform with. So I'm not
really convinced about the "safeness" of flying solo from the front.
I am going to learn to fly from the front, but only so I can teach my son.
I have a friend around here who's a taildragger CFI I'll get to ride in the
back while I give it a go. Should be fun!
Tools
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360528#360528
Message 20
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| Subject: | CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. |
Now that I have heard it again, I vaguely remember talk about tail lift/pre
ssure forces. I find it odd that our tail with it's relatively flat profile
does anything more then come along for the ride. I don't understand how th
e tail, being symmetrical, can have any lifting force at all...top or botto
m. I would think the forces are equal and null each other out. (thinking pu
rely having the elevators level with horizontal.)=C2- But, it is what it
is and it works...can't argue that.
Michael Perez
=0AKaretaker Aero
=0Awww.karetakeraero.com
--- On Fri, 12/9/11, Jack Phillips <pietflyr@bellsouth.net> wrote:
From: Jack Phillips <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap
seal.
=0A=0A=0A =0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AI put gap
seals (duct tape) on mine a=0Acouple of years ago.=C2- They fell off (wel
l, one did so I removed the other)=0Aon the way to Brodhead this summer.=C2
- There was a noticeable effect, but=0Anot much.=C2- What I noticed is
that with the elevator gaps sealed, I could=0Alift the tail sooner on takeo
ff.=C2- It also affected my trim somewhat.=C2-=0AI have a spring-type t
rim system, and with the gaps sealed, I ran out of nose=0Aup trim and still
needed to hold a slight bit of back pressure when I had a=0Aload in the ba
ggage compartment (I have a nose baggage compartment on my=0APietenpol, sin
ce my fuel tank is in the centersection).=C2- When the seals=0Awere remov
ed, my trim spring was strong enough to give me all the back pressure=0AI n
eeded, even with a load up front. =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0AIn regards to the rec
ent discussion about=0Athe function of tails, the horizontal tail provides
downforce to hold the=0Atypical nose heavy airplane level. in the case of m
ost Pietenpols (and every=0Aone that I have flown), if you look at the hori
zontal tail in flight, you will=0Asee a slight bit of down elevator, indica
ting that the tail is actually=0Aproviding a bit of lift.=C2- This is lik
ely a function of the Pietenpol=99s=0Aairfoil, and of the fact that m
any Pietenpols (mine included) are flown with=0Athe CG near the aft edge of
the envelope.=C2- Adding gap seals apparently=0Aincreases that tail lift
force, requiring more back pressure (or less forward=0Apressure) to hold t
he plane in level flight. =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0AHere are a couple of pictures
showing=0APietenpols in level flight, showing the slight down elevator:
=0A=0A =C2- =0A=0A=C2- =0A=0AHere is my Pietenpol in flight.=C2- You
=0Acan see a slight down elevator (not much, since I have my wife and a ful
l load=0Aof baggage). =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0AAnd here is Mike Cuy=99s, o
n the way=0Ato Brodhead, back in 2005: =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0A =0A=0A =C2-
=0A=0AHere is Greg Cardinal=99s =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0A =0A=0A =C2-
=0A=0AAnd here is another one (don=99t know=0Awho owns this one): =0A
=0A =C2- =0A=0A =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0AAll show a similar amount of down ele
vator. =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0ASo in answer to which side the tape should=0Ago
on, I put mine on the bottom, not for aerodynamic reasons, but because a=0A
strip of grey duct tape is ugly. =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0ATo each his own
=0A=0A =C2- =0A=0AJack Phillips =0A=0ANX899JP =0A=0ASmith Mountain La
ke, Virginia =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AFrom:=0Aowner-piet
enpol-list-server@matronics.com=0A[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matro
nics.com] On Behalf Of helspersew@aol.com
=0ASent: Friday, December 09, 2011=0A9:04 AM
=0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: CG=0Ashift common sense check. Elevator/sta
b gap seal. =0A=0A=0A=0A =C2- =0A=0A=0A=0AI haven't seen too many (none t
hat I can=0Arecall) elevator gap seals at Brodhead. Is this really necessar
y? Just=0Awondering. =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=C2- =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ADan Helsper
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0APuryear, TN
=0A
=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A-----Original=0AMessage-----
=0AFrom: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
=0ATo: pietenpol-list <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
=0ASent: Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:07 am
=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab
gap=0Aseal. =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A =0A I will be working my first W&B in the
(maybe)=0A near future so this post is timely for me. I only have one com
ment. Since the=0A horizontal stabilizer/elevators have little to no air f
oil shape and that=0A shape is the same on bot top and bottom, there will
not be a pressure=0A difference. At these locations, it should not matter
on what side the gap=0A seal tape is applied.
=0A
=0A If the tail was shaped like the wing, then any tape on the top would w
ant to=0A pull up off of the surface...the low pressure top of the wing re
lative to the=0A higher pressure underneath.
=0A
=0A Michael Perez
=0A Karetaker Aero
=0A www.karetakeraero.com =0A =0A =C2- =0A =0A =0A =0A=0A=0A =C2-
=C2-_blank>www.aeroelectric.com/" target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com
=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.comblank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution"
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listp://forum
s.matronics.comblank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =C2- =0A=0A=0A
=0A =C2- =C2-www.buildersbooks.comhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pi
etenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contributio
n =C2- =0A=0A=0A=0A
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| Subject: | Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. |
Nope, no brakes in the front, and I only want to fly there for instruction. Just
amazed that balance wise it would be safe.
Mine has the same down elevator in level flight. However, even with down elevator,
there's still higher pressure on the top, there has to be. All stable airplanes
are nose heavy. CG range merely determines the safe range of nose heavy.
If there's down elevator at normal cruising speed, that means the horiz stab is
out of rig. You want the elevator lined up with the stab for normal cruise speed
for less drag.
At our speeds and such, it really isn't a big deal...
I agree, the tape on the bottom is just nicer looking. Dick had yellow tape that
matches the paint, so that helps! I'm just having a hard time keeping it on.
Tools
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| Subject: | CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. |
Michael,
Didn't you ever fly a balsa glider as a kid? Those have sheet balsa wings
with no airfoil and they work just fine, at the correct angle of attack. Or
didn't you ever ride in a car with the window down and "fly" your hand in
the slipstream? You could generate either positive or negative lift, just
by changing the angle of attack.
Airfoils just work more efficiently than flat plates. By the way, unless
answering questions on an FAA exam, NEVER try to explain lift as a result of
"the Bernoulli Effect". If the Bernoulli Effect was responsible for
creating lift, no Pitts Special (except the early models with the M-6
airfoil), or Decathlon or Extra 300 could fly at all, since they have
symmetrical airfoils. Airfoils (including flat plates) work by deflecting
the air downward, pure and simple.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 11:22 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap
seal.
Now that I have heard it again, I vaguely remember talk about tail
lift/pressure forces. I find it odd that our tail with it's relatively flat
profile does anything more then come along for the ride. I don't understand
how the tail, being symmetrical, can have any lifting force at all...top or
bottom. I would think the forces are equal and null each other out.
(thinking purely having the elevators level with horizontal.) But, it is
what it is and it works...can't argue that.
Michael Perez
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
--- On Fri, 12/9/11, Jack Phillips <pietflyr@bellsouth.net> wrote:
From: Jack Phillips <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap
seal.
I put gap seals (duct tape) on mine a couple of years ago. They fell off
(well, one did so I removed the other) on the way to Brodhead this summer.
There was a noticeable effect, but not much. What I noticed is that with
the elevator gaps sealed, I could lift the tail sooner on takeoff. It also
affected my trim somewhat. I have a spring-type trim system, and with the
gaps sealed, I ran out of nose up trim and still needed to hold a slight bit
of back pressure when I had a load in the baggage compartment (I have a nose
baggage compartment on my Pietenpol, since my fuel tank is in the
centersection). When the seals were removed, my trim spring was strong
enough to give me all the back pressure I needed, even with a load up front.
In regards to the recent discussion about the function of tails, the
horizontal tail provides downforce to hold the typical nose heavy airplane
level. in the case of most Pietenpols (and every one that I have flown), if
you look at the horizontal tail in flight, you will see a slight bit of down
elevator, indicating that the tail is actually providing a bit of lift.
This is likely a function of the Pietenpol's airfoil, and of the fact that
many Pietenpols (mine included) are flown with the CG near the aft edge of
the envelope. Adding gap seals apparently increases that tail lift force,
requiring more back pressure (or less forward pressure) to hold the plane in
level flight.
Here are a couple of pictures showing Pietenpols in level flight, showing
the slight down elevator:
Here is my Pietenpol in flight. You can see a slight down elevator (not
much, since I have my wife and a full load of baggage).
And here is Mike Cuy's, on the way to Brodhead, back in 2005:
Here is Greg Cardinal's
And here is another one (don't know who owns this one):
All show a similar amount of down elevator.
So in answer to which side the tape should go on, I put mine on the bottom,
not for aerodynamic reasons, but because a strip of grey duct tape is ugly.
To each his own.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
helspersew@aol.com
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap
seal.
I haven't seen too many (none that I can recall) elevator gap seals at
Brodhead. Is this really necessary? Just wondering.
Dan Helsper
Puryear, TN
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:07 am
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap
seal.
I will be working my first W&B in the (maybe) near future so this post is
timely for me. I only have one comment. Since the horizontal
stabilizer/elevators have little to no air foil shape and that shape is the
same on bot top and bottom, there will not be a pressure difference. At
these locations, it should not matter on what side the gap seal tape is
applied.
If the tail was shaped like the wing, then any tape on the top would want to
pull up off of the surface...the low pressure top of the wing relative to
the higher pressure underneath.
Michael Perez
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com <http://www.karetakeraero.com/>
_blank>www.aeroelectric.com
/" target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com
=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
p://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
www.buildersbooks.com
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
http://forums.matronics.com
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| Subject: | Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done! |
Early in my Piet project I made one large 4 X 16 feet table on casters.
It has been extended by 2 more feet for my next project.
With casters it easy to roll around with or without project on top.
Of course your workspace might limit the size of your table.
I do recommend plate mounted casters I beleive got them cheap at harbour fr
eight
No need to screw in to the end grain if you do it my way, see pic.
Hans
NX15KV
-----Original Message-----
From: Kringle <Mrkringles@msn.com>
Sent: Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:09 am
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done!
During the holidays i will be building some work tables. I will probably j
ust
se a standard 2x4 for the legs. I would like to install casters but don't
like
he plates or pin type as either wouldn't work well on the end of the 2x4.
I
nderstand the pins will wear the wood quickly and the plates are too large
and
don't like screwing into the end grain of a 2x4. If i can't do casters i
ould at least like to find a cap for the ends of the 2x4's that would preve
nt
he wood from splintering when the bench is drug along the floor. Any
uggestions?
--------
o Not Archive
ohn
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360503#360503
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Message 24
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| Subject: | Pietenpol Tail Aerodynamics |
I have seen on the web, (although I could not find a picture just now to post)
of planes (STOL type) with a large upside-down looking airfoil shape on the horizontal
stabilizer. Perhaps this idea can help with the tail heavy woes of the
Pietenpol that I hear about.
Michael Perez
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal. |
Are all of the pictured Piets in this thread built using the improved plans for
the horizontal stabilizer? If so, it might be an illusion because of the swept
ends of the horizontal stabilizer in relation to the elevators.
Someone needs to note their stick angle with a protractor when the elevator is
held in the neutral position on the ground and compare that to it's position
during straight and level flight.
Anyone have an Angle of Attack indicator on their Piet?
Curt Merdan
Flower Mound, TX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360538#360538
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0876_718.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0875_199.jpg
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done! |
Kringle
Look at the workbench in the following links. The legs are 2x4 (kiln dried).
Each leg is 2 pieces screwed together to form an L. The bottom of each leg has
a 8-inch piece of 2x4 on the inside of the L. This is where the casters plates
are screwed into the legs with small lag bolts. The top of the 8-inch piece
serves as a support for the shelf which in turn has 2x4s around the underside
parameter. The top is two solid core doors. The top is the same height as
my table saw so it can work as an out feed table. I move this workbench all over
the place including out to the back porch when I am ripping large quantities
of wood. The wheels have stayed put just fine in the end grain. Add the casters
and you wont regret it.
http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Chris%20Tracy/images/IMG_5992.JPG
http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Chris%20Tracy/images/IMG_5024.JPG
--------
Chris
Sacramento, CA
WestCoastPiet.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360540#360540
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Tail Aerodynamics |
Upside down airfoil would make the airplane more tail heavy, wouldn't
it?
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Perez
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 12:41 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Tail Aerodynamics
I have seen on the web, (although I could not find a picture
just now to post) of planes (STOL type) with a large upside-down looking
airfoil shape on the horizontal stabilizer. Perhaps this idea can help
with the tail heavy woes of the Pietenpol that I hear about.
Michael Perez
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Tail Aerodynamics |
The Zenith 701 has a inverted stabiliser.
http://www.zenithair.com/stolch701/index1.html
Regards
Gerry
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Tail Aerodynamics |
Gets confusing doesn't it?-
Michael Perez
=0AKaretaker Aero
=0Awww.karetakeraero.com
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done! |
The term=C2-should have been=C2-"chamfer", not "bevel".
Greg C.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal@comcast.net>
Sent: Friday, December 9, 2011 6:42:27 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done!
t>
Simply cut a bevel on each of the four corners of each 2X4. No more
splintering.
Greg Cardinal
Minneapolis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kringle" <Mrkringles@msn.com>
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 5:06 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done!
>
> During the holidays i will be building some work tables. =C2-I will pro
bably
> just use a standard 2x4 for the legs. =C2-I would like to install caste
rs but
> don't like the plates or pin type as either wouldn't work well on the end
> of the 2x4. =C2-I understand the pins will wear the wood quickly and th
e
> plates are too large and i don't like screwing into the end grain of a
> 2x4. =C2-If i can't do casters i would at least like to find a cap for
the
> ends of the 2x4's that would prevent the wood from splintering when the
> bench is drug along the floor. =C2-Any suggestions?
>
> --------
> Do Not Archive
> John
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360503#360503
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===========
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2--Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
===========
MS -
===========
e -
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2--Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Tail Aerodynamics |
Here's Chris Heintz's reason for the inverted airfoil on the horizontal stab of
his 701 STOL design, and an explanation of how it works.
Obviously, if it works on that plane, it would also be a good idea for the Pietenpol...
;) (just kidding).
Aircraft design isn't all cut and dried. It can be very complicated stuff. That's
why I choose not to mess around with it. The Air Camper has a known characteristic
of flying with a slightly drooping elevator in level flight. I'm okay
with that. I'm sticking to the plans.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360558#360558
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/zenith_hstab_301.jpg
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Tail Aerodynamics |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Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Tail Aerodynamics |
You're confusing static CG with aerodynamics. Unless in motion through the
air, the horizontal/elevator will always exert the same weight in a level
attitude. And yes, the "upside down airfoil" would make the tail be
"heavy" in flight. This, as mentioned earlier, will offset the normal
relationship of CG vs. Center of Lift where the CG is forward of the Center
of Lift, there by making the airplane, in flight, think it is nose heavy.
See this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PLtqzN4gDc
On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 1:51 PM, C N Campbell <cncampbell@windstream.net>wrote:
> **
> Upside down airfoil would make the airplane more tail heavy, wouldn't it?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
> *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Friday, December 09, 2011 12:41 PM
> *Subject:* Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Tail Aerodynamics
>
> I have seen on the web, (although I could not find a picture just now
> to post) of planes (STOL type) with a large upside-down looking airfoil
> shape on the horizontal stabilizer. Perhaps this idea can help with the
> tail heavy woes of the Pietenpol that I hear about.
>
> Michael Perez
> Karetaker Aero
> www.karetakeraero.com
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c*
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
"The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety
labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?" (anon)
Boones Mill, VA
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Tail Aerodynamics |
Another brief vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyC0i_zOqkg
On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Lloyd Smith <lesmith240@gmail.com> wrote:
> You're confusing static CG with aerodynamics. Unless in motion through
> the air, the horizontal/elevator will always exert the same weight in a
> level attitude. And yes, the "upside down airfoil" would make the tail be
> "heavy" in flight. This, as mentioned earlier, will offset the normal
> relationship of CG vs. Center of Lift where the CG is forward of the Center
> of Lift, there by making the airplane, in flight, think it is nose heavy.
>
> See this video:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PLtqzN4gDc
>
> On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 1:51 PM, C N Campbell <cncampbell@windstream.net>wrote:
>
>> **
>> Upside down airfoil would make the airplane more tail heavy, wouldn't it?
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
>> *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>> *Sent:* Friday, December 09, 2011 12:41 PM
>> *Subject:* Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Tail Aerodynamics
>>
>> I have seen on the web, (although I could not find a picture just now
>> to post) of planes (STOL type) with a large upside-down looking airfoil
>> shape on the horizontal stabilizer. Perhaps this idea can help with the
>> tail heavy woes of the Pietenpol that I hear about.
>>
>> Michael Perez
>> Karetaker Aero
>> www.karetakeraero.com
>>
>> **
>>
>>
--
"The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety
labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?" (anon)
Boones Mill, VA
Message 35
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| Subject: | CG shift answer. |
Well, threw my son in the back and we took it out for a flight. Observations...
First, flying from the front sucks! I have no clue how he did it. Just not very
ergonomic.
Second, no obvious difference in handling. However, we were flying a lot faster,
like 5 to 10 mph faster. I'm wondering if the shift brought the elevators
in line with the stab and reduced drag enough to cause that.
Also, while awful cold (for us, somewhere in the 50's), it really seemed to climb
a lot better as well. I'm definitely interested in whether a drag reduction
is the reason for all of this.
If so, I'm thinking really comprehensive trimming of these things might be a really
good idea.
Tools
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360568#360568
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done! |
Thanks folks. I got the info I needed. I don't care what others say about you,
i like this list!
--------
Do Not Archive
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360569#360569
Message 37
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| Subject: | Off topic frivolity and edification request |
Both my grandparents had dairies. every cow was given a magnet to carry in
the stomach to puck up bits of bailing wire that may stray. The magnet wo
uld hold the wire in place to keep it from poking the stomach wall. the st
omach acid would dissolve the wire in place and render it not hazardous. V
ic
do not archive.
From: gboothe5@comcast.net
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Off topic frivolity and edification request
John=2C
Just as point of clarification (my apologies to the List for the subject ma
tter)=2C by my recollection from my dead rancher grandfather=2C it is not u
nheard of for a cow to swallow some unwanted=2C ferris object=2C causing im
aginable stomach issues. A long glove=2C a magnet and the south end of the
cow complete the story=85.
Gary from Cool
Do not archive
DO NOT ARCHIVE
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Amsafetyc
Sent: Thursday=2C December 08=2C 2011 7:00 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Off topic frivolity and edification request
=85.. perplexed ( having not grown up on a farm ) =85 I never knew cows wer
e magnetic or is there some sort of animal magnetism=85
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Tail Aerodynamics |
All this talk about tail aerodynamics can get very confusing. I have never
worried about it because my tail always goes where I point my nose. I do have a
gap seal and the plane flew beautifully. Cheers, Gardiner
________________________________
From: Lloyd Smith <lesmith240@gmail.com>
Sent: Fri, December 9, 2011 4:59:08 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Tail Aerodynamics
Another brief vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyC0i_zOqkg
On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Lloyd Smith <lesmith240@gmail.com> wrote:
You're confusing static CG with aerodynamics. Unless in motion through the air,
the horizontal/elevator will always exert the same weight in a level attitude.
And yes, the "upside down airfoil" would make the tail be "heavy" in flight.
This, as mentioned earlier, will offset the normal relationship of CG vs. Center
of Lift where the CG is forward of the Center of Lift, there by making the
airplane, in flight, think it is nose heavy.
>
>See this video:
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PLtqzN4gDc
>
>
>On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 1:51 PM, C N Campbell <cncampbell@windstream.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Upside down airfoil would make the airplane more tail heavy, wouldn't it?
>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: Michael Perez
>>>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>>>Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 12:41 PM
>>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Tail Aerodynamics
>>>
>>>
>>>I have seen on the web, (although I could not find a picture just now
>>>to post) of planes (STOL type) with a large upside-down looking airfoil
>>>shape on the horizontal stabilizer. Perhaps this idea can help with
the
>>>tail heavy woes of the Pietenpol that I hear about.
>>>
>>>Michael Perez
>>>Karetaker Aero
>>>www.karetakeraero.com
>>>
>>>
--
"The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be capital
punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of
everything and let the problem solve itself?" (anon)
Boones Mill, VA
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Work table thoughts, and rib jig done! |
John,
A good work table is to use 4x4s on each leg, build a box of 2x6 top and
bottom with a couple cross pieces at two foot intervals and then put
3/4" plywood on the top for a work surface the and bottom for a shelf.
Definitely put it on casters. The 4x4 legs make it easy. I have one I
use around the hangar and it is sturdy enough to hold an engine and all
my tools when not cluttered with junk. You can also lay out ribs and
tailfeathers on the top and keep the beer cooler on the bottom shelf.
Also, make it high enough that you aren't bending over for hours at a
time. Shouldn't cost nearly $100.
Darrel
On 12/9/2011 3:06 AM, Kringle wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kringle"<Mrkringles@msn.com>
>
> During the holidays i will be building some work tables. I will probably just
use a standard 2x4 for the legs. I would like to install casters but don't
like the plates or pin type as either wouldn't work well on the end of the 2x4.
I understand the pins will wear the wood quickly and the plates are too large
and i don't like screwing into the end grain of a 2x4. If i can't do casters
i would at least like to find a cap for the ends of the 2x4's that would prevent
the wood from splintering when the bench is drug along the floor. Any suggestions?
>
> --------
> Do Not Archive
> John
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360503#360503
>
>
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