Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 10:04 AM - Re: center section storage lid hinge-to-front spar (taildrags)
2. 12:24 PM - Got in some flying last evening. (tools)
3. 12:36 PM - Re: Got in some flying last evening. (Jack Phillips)
4. 12:59 PM - Re: Sun and Fun (Dick N)
5. 01:58 PM - Re: Re: Bendix magneto starting issues (Jim Ash)
6. 02:11 PM - Re: Bendix magneto starting issues (jarheadpilot82)
7. 03:04 PM - Re: Re: Bendix magneto starting issues (Jim Ash)
8. 04:22 PM - Re: Bendix magneto starting issues (jarheadpilot82)
9. 04:34 PM - Re: Got in some flying last evening. (jarheadpilot82)
10. 04:40 PM - Re: Re: Got in some flying last evening. (brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com)
11. 04:40 PM - Re: Re: Got in some flying last evening. (brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com)
12. 04:59 PM - center section storage lid hinge-to-front spar (Lawrence Williams)
13. 05:47 PM - Re: Re: Banjos (was: Bendix magneto starting issues) (Jack Phillips)
14. 06:15 PM - SunNFun plans (Ben Charvet)
15. 06:15 PM - Re: Bendix magneto starting issues (Bill Church)
16. 07:49 PM - Re: Bendix magneto starting issues (dgaldrich)
17. 08:40 PM - Re: Re: Bendix magneto starting issues (Jim Ash)
18. 09:03 PM - Re: Re: Bendix magneto starting issues (Jim Ash)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: center section storage lid hinge-to-front spar |
Very nice work, and good details. Wish Scout had such a wing storage compartment.
Maybe someday I'll do a retrofit.
By the way, my old "coffee grinder" pencil sharpener is one of the most used 'tools'
in my shop, and it really helps when laying out lines on wood. Nothing
like a sharp pencil to lay down clean lines. However, I have my sharpener oriented
such that gravity carries the shavings and dust to the bottom. I don't
rely on centrifugal force to throw the particles horizontally like you do with
yours ;o)
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368159#368159
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| Subject: | Got in some flying last evening. |
While the setting sun generally was screwing up the photo op, this one turned out
pretty cool. My son is in the back, I'm in the front.
Having a hard time finding nice steady cross winds, so here he is setting her down
on one wheel for practice during calm conditions.
Tools
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368165#368165
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| Subject: | Got in some flying last evening. |
Very cool!
Nice to see you enjoying Dick's old Pietenpol. I'm sure it is still a bit
chilly in Minnesota for aviating.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tools
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 3:24 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Got in some flying last evening.
While the setting sun generally was screwing up the photo op, this one
turned out pretty cool. My son is in the back, I'm in the front.
Having a hard time finding nice steady cross winds, so here he is setting
her down on one wheel for practice during calm conditions.
Tools
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368165#368165
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Stop by the Wood workshop, several of us are going to build stuff for a
Pietenpol at the show. I just got to Fla and will relax a bit and be ready
to go.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: "j_dunavin" <j_dunavin@hotmail.com>
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 12:35 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Sun and Fun
>
> I'm going to be down here in Lakeland for a work contract, but will be at
> the show. Is there anyone coming down here, that I may be able to get
> together with. I would like to take some pictures, ask questions, and
> maybe get a ride.
> Thanks guys!
> J_Dunavin@hotmail.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368067#368067
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Bendix magneto starting issues |
Dave -
I'm basically with you on all the theory. I think your initial graph threw me for
a loop, which is what got me going. All the stuff I've seen shows current diving
at points-open time, which makes the graph look roughly like a rounded-back
sawtooth. The field collapse is what gets this little beastie going.
My only unknown really just comes down to the value chosen for the condenser. If
the reactance of the cap is the same as for the coil, it becomes a tank. An
ideal tank is an LC loop, which in theory will cycle forever. But in the real
world, there's going to be some R components to dampen it, the most significant
in this circuit being the load from the secondary, which is kinda the goal anyhow.
I'm guessing ESR and other parasitics are there, but I doubt they're significant
compared to that.
The 2pi sqrt(L*C) is actually the time constant for the circuit (technically, the
2pi is outside the radical - I normally try to stick with the omega notation
to keep my life simpler when doing the math, then use omega = 2pi f when I care
about applying it to real-world frequencies). Invert it to get the frequency,
but you've got the idea. My RLC filter theory is rusty (my RC theory isn't
- I use that one a lot more often doing digital stuff. I generally try to avoid
magnetics when I can - Too much mass, too much space, too much copper), but
the natural frequency for a band-pass (or notch) is going to be the same as for
a tank of the same frequency; they're the same formula. The difference is that
the components in a tank are matched to store the same amount of energy, so
it just keeps bouncing between the two. If they're not matched, it won't be
a true tank, but every system like this has to have some natural frequency and
it will ring about it (overdampened), so I'm not quite with you on the 'cannot
resonate' statement. My guess is that the sudden current drop-off on the graph
is going to show some ringing about zero.
The how-much part was my misunderstanding. I was led to believe it rang significantly
(on a 30-40kHz natural frequency), and the current swings were enough to
get the plug to fire more than once in rapid succession before enough energy
was bled out of the system the secondary couldn't reach ionization energy any
more. With that not being true, then I don't have a clue what the criteria are
to drive ideal condenser selection.
So what time is it? Sometimes watch works are cool.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
>From: dgaldrich <dgaldrich@embarqmail.com>
>Sent: Mar 9, 2012 9:47 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bendix magneto starting issues
>
>
>Jim:
>
>Think about this from a theory point of view. When the points CLOSE, the C is
out of the picture -- it's shorted out -- so you have an RL circuit. As the
field builds up, the current goes from 0 toward a steady state that is determined
solely by the R in the circuit. That R is a function of the ballast resistor
and the internal resistance of the coil. The RL time constant determines
the shape of the first part of the curve I drew.
>
>Side note: Notice that the faster the engine runs, the earlier on that curve
the points open. That means less energy stored in the coil to produce a spark.
As a conventional system speeds up, the spark actually becomes weaker. Not
so with magnetos. The faster the magneto turns (up to a point) the more energy
is available. The faster a wire moves through a magnetic field, the more induced
voltage. The slower the movement, the less voltage. That's why magnetos
can sometimes be hard to start and why impulse couplings were developed. The
impulse coupling accelerates the magnets through the windings in a ratchet
kind of motion.
>
>Now the points open. You have a series RLC circuit with a DC supply voltage.
That is a circuit that cannot resonate and is what is called a band pass filter.
Only frequencies in a range around the square root of 2*Pi*L*C if memory
serves, will get through. DC will not.
>
>The graph I drew is actually incorrect. The current in the low voltage/primary
winding actually drops to zero almost immediately. The energy stored in the
magnetic field of both coil windings has only one way to dissipate and that's
through the high voltage/secondary side via the spark plug which has much less
effective resistance than the primary side.
>
>What you may have read about is some of the solid state systems may have a resonant
circuit used to charge a capacitor in a system commonly known as a CDI for
Capacitor Discharge Ignition. There is no such thing as a DC transformer so
in order to get a higher than 14 v supply, the system either uses a resonant
circuit or chops dc in very short on/off pulses. These look like AC to a transformer
and by proper selection of windings, you can get almost any AC voltage
you want. Rectify it and - voila - high(er) voltage DC. That's the principle
the 110 v adapters you plug in your cigarette lighter work on.
>
>This is probably one of those cases of "ask me what time it is and I'll tell
you how to build a watch".
>
>Hope this helps.
>
>Dave
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368085#368085
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Bendix magneto starting issues |
Gentleman,
As a Liberal Arts major who graduated 35 years ago, and a guy who has only flown
airplanes (and not worked on them) since then, all I can say is-
My head hurts.
You guys are waaaaay ahead of me. But it is interesting to read your discussion.
--------
Do Not Archive
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368175#368175
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| Subject: | Re: Bendix magneto starting issues |
For the record - It's not my thing to try and dazzle people into thinking I'm the
smartest guy in the room. I'm not, and nobody likes an elitist or a blow-hard.
I work with one, and everybody scatters like cockroaches in the light (including
me) when he wanders by.
I screw with electronics (mostly digital) for fun. It has been a passion for years.
Although I'd like to do it for a living, we chose to live in an area that's
a black-hole for high-tech jobs (the mountains in northern NH). So I work full-time
in business software to keep us in chips and beer, and play with electronics
as an avocation. That also means there's nobody around (except said elitist
above, and I've avoided letting on to him that I know electronics) with
which to carry on a decent technical discussion, so I find exchanges like this
refreshing.
Also, when discussions or inquiries like this come up, I will comment if I feel
I can confidently and reliably contribute. It is my opinion that information
should be free and shared openly when needed (My fantasy job is actually to teach
high-school math). It becomes a burr uder my saddle when somebody else has
me convinced of some technical inaccuracy and I pass it on to others as fact.
I would like to think that everybody's good at something. My bucket list includes
(amongst a hundred other things) playing the banjo and painting a landscape.
I'm in awe of musicians that can plow through a difficult piece effortlessly.
I don't have the eye-hand coordination for such things, so even if I manage
to get as far as trying one of them, I suspect I'll suck at it.
... but I'll still give it a good-hard run when the time comes. Ya gotta have a
dream.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
>From: jarheadpilot82 <jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com>
>Sent: Mar 11, 2012 5:09 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bendix magneto starting issues
>
>
>Gentleman,
>
>As a Liberal Arts major who graduated 35 years ago, and a guy who has only flown
airplanes (and not worked on them) since then, all I can say is-
>
>My head hurts.
>
>You guys are waaaaay ahead of me. But it is interesting to read your discussion.
>
>--------
>Do Not Archive
>
>Semper Fi,
>
>Terry Hand
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368175#368175
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Bendix magneto starting issues |
Jim,
My comments were not meant to dissuade you from such discussions. I really was
giving a little ribbing, that's all. Humor does rarely transcend email and postings
very well.
I really am in awe of guys like you who understand the workings of things, whether
it be magnetos, or tearing down engines and rebuilding them. I am even more
in awe when guys not only understand it but can talk about it in ways that guys
like me can actually understand. I wish that I had the same background.
I have been blessed to fly professionally for over thirty years, and I have flown
around the world and off of ships, and done things that I am very proud of.
But having said that, I would gladly give up half my flight hours to have some
of the knowledge and experience that you and other members of this Forum have.
Keep up the discussions as you see fit. That is the beauty of forums like this.
--------
Do Not Archive
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368182#368182
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Got in some flying last evening. |
Very nice pictures, Tools.
Very nice!
--------
Do Not Archive
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368184#368184
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Got in some flying last evening. |
----- Original Message -----
From: jarheadpilot82 [mailto:jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 05:34 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Got in some flying last evening.
Very nice pictures, Tools.
Very nice!
--------
Do Not Archive
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368184#368184
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Got in some flying last evening. |
----- Original Message -----
From: jarheadpilot82 [mailto:jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 05:34 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Got in some flying last evening.
Very nice pictures, Tools.
Very nice!
--------
Do Not Archive
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368184#368184
Message 12
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| Subject: | center section storage lid hinge-to-front spar |
Perez-
Judging by the ends of your center section spars, your dihedral angle will be about
23 degrees. Just curious about the length of your struts and how much lift
you're going to sacrifice. Should be stable as all get-out, though.
Larry (Top Curmudgeon) Williams
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Banjos (was: Bendix magneto starting issues) |
Good luck with the banjo, Jim. When I finished my Pietenpol, I bought
myself a banjo as a reward. I figured with all the time on my hands that
was to become available now that I'm no longer building an airplane, I could
learn the banjo.
Building airplanes is A LOT easier than learning the banjo.
I got where I could play at a slow to middling speed about six tunes,
including "Foggy Mountain Breakdown". That was the highwater mark in my
banjo playing.
I eventually started building another airplane so I had an excuse for why I
didn't have time to learn the banjo.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Ash
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 6:02 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bendix magneto starting issues
For the record - It's not my thing to try and dazzle people into thinking
I'm the smartest guy in the room. I'm not, and nobody likes an elitist or a
blow-hard. I work with one, and everybody scatters like cockroaches in the
light (including me) when he wanders by.
I screw with electronics (mostly digital) for fun. It has been a passion for
years. Although I'd like to do it for a living, we chose to live in an area
that's a black-hole for high-tech jobs (the mountains in northern NH). So I
work full-time in business software to keep us in chips and beer, and play
with electronics as an avocation. That also means there's nobody around
(except said elitist above, and I've avoided letting on to him that I know
electronics) with which to carry on a decent technical discussion, so I find
exchanges like this refreshing.
Also, when discussions or inquiries like this come up, I will comment if I
feel I can confidently and reliably contribute. It is my opinion that
information should be free and shared openly when needed (My fantasy job is
actually to teach high-school math). It becomes a burr uder my saddle when
somebody else has me convinced of some technical inaccuracy and I pass it on
to others as fact.
I would like to think that everybody's good at something. My bucket list
includes (amongst a hundred other things) playing the banjo and painting a
landscape. I'm in awe of musicians that can plow through a difficult piece
effortlessly. I don't have the eye-hand coordination for such things, so
even if I manage to get as far as trying one of them, I suspect I'll suck at
it.
... but I'll still give it a good-hard run when the time comes. Ya gotta
have a dream.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
>From: jarheadpilot82 <jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com>
>Sent: Mar 11, 2012 5:09 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bendix magneto starting issues
>
<jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com>
>
>Gentleman,
>
>As a Liberal Arts major who graduated 35 years ago, and a guy who has only
flown airplanes (and not worked on them) since then, all I can say is-
>
>My head hurts.
>
>You guys are waaaaay ahead of me. But it is interesting to read your
discussion.
>
>--------
>Do Not Archive
>
>Semper Fi,
>
>Terry Hand
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368175#368175
>
>
Message 14
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Hi all,
I've been staying in a friend's motorhome the last 2 or 3 years at
Sun-N-Fun. This year he isn't going, so I'm planning some Air-camping,
loading all the camping gear I can fit into my front cockpit and center
section and flying over. Anybody else planning to camp this year so I'm
not hanging out by myself?
--
Ben Charvet
Titusville, Fl
Really hoping his Pietenpol finally makes it to Lakeland
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Bendix magneto starting issues |
Jim,
Now THAT would take some serious hand-eye coordination.
Unless you mean doing the two activities separately. :)
Jim Ash wrote:
> My bucket list includes (amongst a hundred other things) playing the banjo and
painting a landscape.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368201#368201
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Bendix magneto starting issues |
First, I've reread my posts on this subject and I must admit that they do sound
pedantic. That was not my intent. I probably would have made a terrible teacher.
I'm also with you on the banjo.
Did some more research on the subject and it turns out we are both correct. The
basic theory as we have both described it is correct. Points open, field collapses,
spark occurs. The selection of correct values for coil and condenser
values require an analysis of the type you describe. There ARE alternating current
harmonics generated, as there are any time you open or close a DC switch.
R, L, and C are chosen to control/dampen that oscillation as fast as possible
-- 3 to 4 oscillations max --and still have a rapid, controlled field collapse/hot
spark. The field collapse that produces the spark is pretty much a single
DC only event. The oscillation really is more of an unwanted by-product
of physics than it is necessary for the function of spark production since the
circuits do not continue to oscillate past the 3 or 4 damped cycles. I found
some typical L and C numbers and the resonant frequency for the primary circuit
is something like 10 khz. Considering a 4 cylinder engine at 3000 rpm fires
at a 100 hz rate, the time spent oscillating is close to inconsequential.
That was (sort of) my point.
Dave
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368207#368207
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Bendix magneto starting issues |
That's funny - I had to read the posting again. I'll post a youtube video for you
when I get that far.
... but don't hold your breath for too long.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
>Sent: Mar 11, 2012 9:15 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bendix magneto starting issues
>
>
>Jim,
>Now THAT would take some serious hand-eye coordination.
>Unless you mean doing the two activities separately. :)
>
>Jim Ash wrote:
>
>> My bucket list includes (amongst a hundred other things) playing the banjo and
painting a landscape.
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368201#368201
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Bendix magneto starting issues |
There have been times when I'd trade the book larnin' for the flight time. But
I've got a friend flying left seat in '67's internationally for American. He commented
to me once that it had become .... a job. Ya rolls the dice, ya takes
your chances, I guess.
When I was in high school, glasses were the kiss of death for a military flying
career; military pilots were filtered like the master race. I got glasses at
age 12 (and probably needed them badly for at least a couple years prior, but
didn't know it), so that dream got cut off right from the get-go.
I was raised in coastal NJ (Ocean City). The Coast Guard had both basic training
and helicopter training in Cape May at the time, and the word was that they
would allow glasses on their pilot candidates. Once in a while they would do belly
landing and hovering exercises in the bay we used to boat. I'd considered
it for a while, but then it dawned on me that these guys didn't choose for themselves
when to fly, so frequently it was in high winds over heavy seas, plucking
knumbnuts who shouldn't have been out there in the first place from the water,
and defying Darwinism (both on the part of the boaters and the pilots).
Computers and electronics looked like more fun. I was graced with the means and
motivation to get my license, but every hour I've got logged came out of my
own pocket.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
>From: jarheadpilot82 <jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com>
>Sent: Mar 11, 2012 7:20 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bendix magneto starting issues
>
>
>Jim,
>
>My comments were not meant to dissuade you from such discussions. I really was
giving a little ribbing, that's all. Humor does rarely transcend email and postings
very well.
>
>I really am in awe of guys like you who understand the workings of things, whether
it be magnetos, or tearing down engines and rebuilding them. I am even more
in awe when guys not only understand it but can talk about it in ways that
guys like me can actually understand. I wish that I had the same background.
>
>I have been blessed to fly professionally for over thirty years, and I have flown
around the world and off of ships, and done things that I am very proud of.
But having said that, I would gladly give up half my flight hours to have some
of the knowledge and experience that you and other members of this Forum have.
>
>Keep up the discussions as you see fit. That is the beauty of forums like this.
>
>--------
>Do Not Archive
>
>Semper Fi,
>
>Terry Hand
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368182#368182
>
>
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