---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 03/23/12: 32 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:15 AM - Re: Re: question for the radio geeks (Jack Phillips) 2. 05:44 AM - Andrews' a-65 (Douwe Blumberg) 3. 06:02 AM - Re: Engine Accessories, Manuals Needed (Dave Nielsen) 4. 06:23 AM - Re: Andrews' a-65 (Kip and Beth Gardner) 5. 06:33 AM - New source for spoked wheels (helspersew@aol.com) 6. 06:55 AM - simple VHF antenna solution (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP]) 7. 07:04 AM - Re: Andrews' a-65 (Amsafetyc) 8. 07:07 AM - Re: simple VHF antenna solution (Amsafetyc) 9. 07:38 AM - Re: Andrews' a-65 (Gary Boothe) 10. 07:49 AM - Re: Carb Rebuild? (AircamperN11MS) 11. 07:54 AM - Re: question for the radio geeks (K5YAC) 12. 08:12 AM - Re: simple VHF antenna solution (K5YAC) 13. 08:23 AM - Re: Re: question for the radio geeks sarcastic rant (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 14. 08:57 AM - one man's method to get tv signals and the Tony Bingelis books (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP]) 15. 09:21 AM - Re: question for the radio geeks sarcastic rant (K5YAC) 16. 09:24 AM - Re: one man's method to get tv signals and the Tony Bingelis boo (K5YAC) 17. 09:26 AM - Re: Re: question for the radio geeks sarcastic rant (brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com) 18. 09:30 AM - Plans for a simple antenna that should work. (tools) 19. 10:45 AM - Question for Mark Roberts about fuselage (John Fay) 20. 11:22 AM - Re: Plans for a simple antenna that should work. (K5YAC) 21. 11:55 AM - AAE antenna for $75 on ebay (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP]) 22. 12:03 PM - one word can really change the meaning....or one left out! (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP]) 23. 12:32 PM - Re: AAE antenna for $75 on ebay (K5YAC) 24. 01:13 PM - Stearman install of flexible AAE antenna (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP]) 25. 01:28 PM - Re: Andrews' a-65 (Peter W Johnson) 26. 01:38 PM - Re: Andrews' a-65 (Dan Yocum) 27. 02:38 PM - Re: Stearman install of flexible AAE antenna (K5YAC) 28. 03:11 PM - Re: Plans for a simple antenna that should work. (tools) 29. 03:32 PM - Re: SNF (Dick N) 30. 04:05 PM - Re: SNF (Ben Charvet) 31. 06:59 PM - Re: Re: question for the radio geeks (Ray Krause) 32. 08:36 PM - Re: question for the radio geeks (K5YAC) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:15:46 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: question for the radio geeks Just to further muddy the waters on what for me is a murky subject to begin with, I have a 1/2 wave dipole in the leading edge of my Pietenpol, which seems to provide minimally acceptable performance. I can usually pick up an AWOS about 8 - 10 miles out, which is plenty at Pietenpol speeds. But it doesn't seem to transmit very well and sometimes I have trouble hearing a tower's transmissions. I find that when I can barely hear a transmission, if I bank the airplane it usually comes in clearer. As I understand it, one reason that vertical antennas work well for aircraft is that the FAA's antennas are vertical as well, meaning the signal they propogate is vertically polarized. A dipole mounted horizontally like mine is horizontally polarized, greatly reducing its efficiency for picking up vertically polarized signals. Fortunately, I rarely use the radio, reserving it for the rare occasion when I go into a controlled field. Then it comes in handy, so I don't have to try to remember those light gun signals. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of K5YAC Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 6:00 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: question for the radio geeks I'm not trying to argue either... simply attempting to clear up a few of the inaccuracies. Again you say... more power in! Yes, it might mean more power out, but how much is being reflected? My point is that is you have a tunable circuit (most antennas are), why not fix it? Adding power is generally expensive (more importantly, heavier and bulkier)... and in this application it is not at all necessary to take that approach. tools wrote: > I agree, a ground plane does need to be tuned just like the driven element, but in practice, for what we're doing, we probably don't need to bring in an engineer to get it to work for us. No, a ground plane does not NEED to be tuned... my statement was that it would be ideal because it would be more efficient, but in a small airplane it is difficult to accomplish as conditions aren't ideal. As for needing an engineer... no, I don't suppose an engineer is required to get it to work well enough for you, but when someone asks a question, I think it's only fair to provide accurate answers in order to put them on the right path and protect their equipment. Seems that if Douwe wanted to just wing-it he wouldn't have asked. Perhaps I get buried in the details, but we have honestly only scratched the surface on this topic. We can keep it simple, and we generally have... the answer to the original question was that the ground plane needed to be oriented at the base of the driven element (at the feed point)... simple, right? But, as the discussion went on it seemed that there might be some interest in knowing WHY it should be there, and then other factors (and inaccuracies) arose. I think you are missing the point, which is that it is smarter, cheaper and more effective to tune the circuit instead of just throwing the gear in and saying yeah, the signal is crap, but it works good enough. To a radio guy that is like saying, yeah, she's only running on 3 cylinders, but I'm still getting 60% power. Anyhow, I'll pipe down on the matter for now. If anyone wants the straight skinny on efficient antenna design, shoot me a note. One more thing... 10 elements on 160? Really? I'd like to see that. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369171#369171 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:45 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Andrews' a-65 First off, thanks all for the radio head help. I think we're narrowing down on a solution. I sure like the idea of a fin location because it gets it away from most of the hunks of metal (except for the brace wires) but not sure how to do a ground plane back there. Second choice is behind my cockpit but I have an aluminum baggage compartment there and am afraid between that and the control cables (and the cables from my shoulder harness) there will be too much interference. Still thinking. Andrew, your symptoms remind me of a time I ran an engine and it did the same thing. Turned out my fuel supply to the carb was bad and it would only run the bowl down then quit. Then while I tinkered, the bowl would slowly refill and it would run again. then quit. Douwe ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:30 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine Accessories, Manuals Needed From: Dave Nielsen Go to You tube. Search for antique magnetos. You will find lots of do it yo urself instructions along with several places to buy antique magneto parts. Dave Do not archive Dave Nielsen sentuchows@aol.com -----Original Message----- From: Ralph Sent: Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:27 pm Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine Accessories, Manuals Needed A couple years ago I found Eisemann mag parts from the California company w ith the full page ad in Trade-a-plane. All parts seemed to be available. Try an antique tractor magazine for a magneto repair man and you can probab ly find points, condenser, etc. for the Case magnetos. Case mags have a re ally hot spark for tractor use and I=99ve been told the airplane mags are the same thing. Ralph in SD -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:37 AM PST US From: Kip and Beth Gardner Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Andrews' a-65 How thin can a ground plane be? Does mass make a difference, or just size, dimensions and orientation? Maybe you could work it into the horizontal stab somehow? I'm supremely ignorant on this subject, so I'm free to throw out goofy ideas :) Kip Gardner On Mar 23, 2012, at 8:54 AM, Douwe Blumberg wrote: > First off, thanks all for the radio head help. I think we=92re > narrowing down on a solution. I sure like the idea of a fin > location because it gets it away from most of the hunks of metal > (except for the brace wires) but not sure how to do a ground plane > back there. Second choice is behind my cockpit but I have an > aluminum baggage compartment there and am afraid between that and > the control cables (and the cables from my shoulder harness) there > will be too much interference. Still thinking=85 > > Andrew, your symptoms remind me of a time I ran an engine and it did > the same thing. Turned out my fuel supply to the carb was bad and > it would only run the bowl down then quit. Then while I tinkered, > the bowl would slowly refill and it would run again=85 then quit. > > Douwe > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:33:24 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: New source for spoked wheels From: helspersew@aol.com I was reading a magazine last night and ran across this ad. Dan Helsper Puryear, TN ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:55:21 AM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: simple VHF antenna solution [cid:image004.jpg@01CD08DA.E53C00E0] I know nothing about aircraft ante nnas besides that this one works really well and it fits nicely inside my fuselage arched and secured in an upside down U-shape behind my rear seat area with nylon tye wraps. I bought a coax cable with two female connectors-one connects to the antenna, the other to my Icom handheld radio. Mike C. http://www.advancedaircraft.com/ [cid:image003.png@01CD08DA.E430F980] ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:35 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Andrews' a-65 From: Amsafetyc I have thrown out the suggestion at least 3 times and although there are sev eral opinions being voiced I don't see anyone willing to present a seminar a nd build workshop session at Brodhead that would help all us non radio heads on the best way to get the best reception on our hand helds. With so many b uilds under way an uncovered Airframe appears to be the best time to plan and install the suggested equip ment for best radio performance. I am certain there must be a best method wi th best performance information available and as many experts willing to edu cate us all rather than throwing around opinions and arguments. Having read t hem all I am now more confused than ever, not being a radio head I am thinki ng tin cans and string will do the job simpler and easier than all the Radio head opinions being tossed around. Juss sayin Do not archive rant request for clarity and enlightenment from those that ca n! John Sent from my iPhone On Mar 23, 2012, at 9:23 AM, Kip and Beth Gardner wrote: > How thin can a ground plane be? Does mass make a difference, or just size , dimensions and orientation? Maybe you could work it into the horizontal s tab somehow? > > I'm supremely ignorant on this subject, so I'm free to throw out goofy ide as :) > > Kip Gardner > > On Mar 23, 2012, at 8:54 AM, Douwe Blumberg wrote: > >> First off, thanks all for the radio head help. I think we=99re nar rowing down on a solution. I sure like the idea of a fin location because i t gets it away from most of the hunks of metal (except for the brace wires) b ut not sure how to do a ground plane back there. Second choice is behind my cockpit but I have an aluminum baggage compartment there and am afraid betw een that and the control cables (and the cables from my shoulder harness) th ere will be too much interference. Still thinking >> >> Andrew, your symptoms remind me of a time I ran an engine and it did the s ame thing. Turned out my fuel supply to the carb was bad and it would only r un the bowl down then quit. Then while I tinkered, the bowl would slowly re fill and it would run again then quit. >> >> Douwe >> >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List" style="color : blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pie tenpol-List >> blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://forums.matronics.com >> style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.matronics. com/contribution >> >> > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:23 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: simple VHF antenna solution From: Amsafetyc If mike says it works great that's all I need, especially since no one has s tepped up to teach us all about it John Do not archive Sent from my iPhone On Mar 23, 2012, at 9:54 AM, "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP ]" wrote: > I know nothing about aircraft antennas besides that thi s one works really well and it > fits nicely inside my fuselage arched and secured in an upside down U-shap e behind my rear seat area with nylon > tye wraps. I bought a coax cable with two female connectors=94one connects to the antenna, the other to my > Icom handheld radio. > > Mike C. > > http://www.advancedaircraft.com/ > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:25 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Andrews' a-65 I=99m with you, John, and stopped paying attention about 3 days ago. However, I did find this stuff: http://www.ssww.com/product/?sku=BE404X &cm_mmc=Paid+Search-_-Google-_-AdwordsProducts-_-BE404X&aid=GOG&cid= 2499 Gary Boothe NX308MB Do not archive From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Amsafetyc Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 7:04 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Andrews' a-65 I have thrown out the suggestion at least 3 times and although there are several opinions being voiced I don't see anyone willing to present a seminar and build workshop session at Brodhead that would help all us non radio heads on the best way to get the best reception on our hand helds. With so many builds under way an uncovered Airframe appears to be the best time to plan and install the suggested equipment for best radio performance. I am certain there must be a best method with best performance information available and as many experts willing to educate us all rather than throwing around opinions and arguments. Having read them all I am now more confused than ever, not being a radio head I am thinking tin cans and string will do the job simpler and easier than all the Radio head opinions being tossed around. Juss sayin Do not archive rant request for clarity and enlightenment from those that can! John Sent from my iPhone On Mar 23, 2012, at 9:23 AM, Kip and Beth Gardner wrote: How thin can a ground plane be? Does mass make a difference, or just size, dimensions and orientation? Maybe you could work it into the horizontal stab somehow? I'm supremely ignorant on this subject, so I'm free to throw out goofy ideas :) Kip Gardner On Mar 23, 2012, at 8:54 AM, Douwe Blumberg wrote: First off, thanks all for the radio head help. I think we=99re narrowing down on a solution. I sure like the idea of a fin location because it gets it away from most of the hunks of metal (except for the brace wires) but not sure how to do a ground plane back there. Second choice is behind my cockpit but I have an aluminum baggage compartment there and am afraid between that and the control cables (and the cables from my shoulder harness) there will be too much interference. Still thinking Andrew, your symptoms remind me of a time I ran an engine and it did the same thing. Turned out my fuel supply to the carb was bad and it would only run the bowl down then quit. Then while I tinkered, the bowl would slowly refill and it would run again then quit. Douwe href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://forums.matronics.com style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========= >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ========= cs.com ========= matronics.com/contribution ========= ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:49:18 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Carb Rebuild? From: "AircamperN11MS" Andrew, Your float is probably stuck from sitting around. It could also be a stuck float needle. You could tap on the carb with the wood end of a hammer and see if that frees up the stuck float. It sounds like it is running on the prime. If you have a primer on it, you could leave it on the unlocked position and it would also probably run a little longer. I would try taping on the carb first. Good luck, -------- Scott Liefeld Flying N11MS since March 1972 Steel Tube C-85-12 Wire Wheels Brodhead in 1996 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369222#369222 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:37 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: question for the radio geeks From: "K5YAC" You are exactly right Jack... polarization does have some effect on radio signals. It shouldn't be tremendous, and I wouldn't think that it would limit the range by 80%, but it's possible that a combination of things could be having an effect. Also true is the fact that you don't need a great deal of range when you are a slow mover, although as one that likes to tinker I'd probably have another look at it if it were me. Perhaps flying a knife-edge maneuver when using the radio would help. [Laughing] I don't mean to be critical of anyone's system, this is just one of those areas that I enjoy, and I will definitely attempt to construct a homebrew antenna system that gives me the most out of my handheld radio. Nope, I won't be using gold plated connections, Teflon dielectric or anything real fancy... just good engineering practices. Wish I had the same skill when it comes to engines, metal work, etc. Ha! -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369224#369224 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:16 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: simple VHF antenna solution From: "K5YAC" Can't argue with what works! I look at the price and say WOW WEE! I need to make a few of these to sell! I'll bet I can make an effective antenna for around $15, but that's not to suggest that buying one is a bad idea. Again, whatever works. Believe me, I'm farming out my share of work... at the moment I'm awaiting delivery of Ken's hubs... just one of those things that I didn't feel like messing with. @John... Teaching this stuff isn't too simple. For starters it requires a basic understanding of general electronics, and then to really get into the design side, things like Smith charts, reactance, resistance, impedance, etc. have to be understood. Honestly I am a little rusty on some of the more advanced theory, but I can recall enough to fabricate simple resonators and such. I'll be glad to bring my antenna analyzer to Brodhead for anyone that wants to evaluate their antenna. It would literally take just a few minutes to plug it in and give it a sweep across the band. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369225#369225 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:24 AM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: question for the radio geeks sarcastic rant Thank you all, I sure am glad we got that all cleared up (yes sarcastic remarks and rant to follow) ! It appears this has been a gigantic waste of time, as many of the prolonged discussions and debates typically are. There appears to be no resolution, nor consensuses as to a best method for those of us unable to flex our radio head muscles. Now that we without those skills are duly and truly impressed with conflicting jargon, I suppose we should move on to the next insoluble discussion. I suppose the simple but only true answer to the question is, make the call, order what you think will work and follow the directions for installation and get what you get as far as radio communications. Since it all comes down to the basic fact "You buys your ticket and takes your ride". Thank you all, I yield back the balance of my time John Do not archive my sarcastic rant ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:57:50 AM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: one man's method to get tv signals and the Tony Bingelis books A certain Pietenpol builder was having trouble (me) getting a good tv signa l on my analog-to-digital tv converter box a few years ago when they went to DTV and the fancy antennas weren't getting good reception so out of futility I just coiled up a length of safety wire around my hand, removed it and stuck one free end into the 'antenna in' jack and boy did I ever get the channels! I agree with Mark that the AAE strap/composite 'ready-to-plug-in-and-fly' a ntenna is a bit pricy for us Pietenpol builders and that a good performing home ma de antenna could be made much cheaper but knowing nothing about this field I c hose to just buy one and be done with it. On another note I do believe that Tony Bingelis talks about radio antenna i nstallation in one of his books and for me I need simple, easy, sketches and wording li ke Tony gives to get the point and learn. Hat's off to all of you who are so knowledgeable in the antenna area and by the way Mark, OUTSTANDING article on how you made your wood composite struts in the last EAA issue of Sport Aviation. (with accolades to our own Jim "That's my Dad" Markle.) Mike C. [cid:image001.png@01CD08EC.139246F0] ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:10 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: question for the radio geeks sarcastic rant From: "K5YAC" I'll take your yielded time... ha! You know me! A waste of time? NFL Sunday tone - Come on man... the original question was in reference to the ground plane... more specifically, where it needed to be placed. That issue was explained and a few examples were even given (Fly Baby site, other illustrations and text). As we pressed on, there were other issues that came up that required a response, or debate, or simply further conversation. Call it what you want, but a waste of time? I think some of the text offered several key (albeit basic) pieces of information, such as proper feed lines, tuning... i.e. 234/frequency(MHz), simple and effective ground plane placement, even some simple terminology. All of these things are key in explaining this science to someone who wants to gain a better understanding. Could I start from the beginning and teach this subject? Absolutely... but I'm not about to because it goes well beyond the scope of the original question and I would eventually get the ol, "what does this have to do with building a Pietenpol" question. Uh huh, you thought I forgot that, didn't ya? Ha ha! Besides, there are textbooks that do a much better job of explaining the theory with pictures and everything... heck, even YOU could understand it. I've got a library full of this stuff... let me know if you are interested. If you are confused about something, perhaps you could ask more specifically... what is it that you would like to know about building an antenna? That might generate a more focused response. But in reality, the things that were offered really are the building blocks of an efficient antenna system... just because the terms seem like "conflicting jargon", it does not mean that is actually the case. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369233#369233 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:33 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: one man's method to get tv signals and the Tony Bingelis boo From: "K5YAC" "That's my Dad"... Haaa ha! Hey, he is a great guy though, right? Thanks for the compliment. The ball of wire/foil/coat hangars... never hurts to try. [Laughing] Who is that hanging the yagi? -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369234#369234 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:26:53 AM PST US From: brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: question for the radio geeks sarcastic rant I would have to say "Not a waste of Time".......I am not an antenna or radio person so I did learned a few tidbits from the discussions. Brian SLC-UT -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of K5YAC Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 10:21 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: question for the radio geeks sarcastic rant I'll take your yielded time... ha! You know me! A waste of time? NFL Sunday tone - Come on man... the original question was in reference to the ground plane... more specifically, where it needed to be placed. That issue was explained and a few examples were even given (Fly Baby site, other illustrations and text). As we pressed on, there were other issues that came up that required a response, or debate, or simply further conversation. Call it what you want, but a waste of time? I think some of the text offered several key (albeit basic) pieces of information, such as proper feed lines, tuning... i.e. 234/frequency(MHz), simple and effective ground plane placement, even some simple terminology. All of these things are key in explaining this science to someone who wants to gain a better understanding. Could I start from the beginning and teach this subject? Absolutely... but I'm not about to because it goes well beyond the scope of the original question and I would eventually get the ol, "what does this have to do ! with building a Pietenpol" question. Uh huh, you thought I forgot that, didn't ya? Ha ha! Besides, there are textbooks that do a much better job of explaining the theory with pictures and everything... heck, even YOU could understand it. I've got a library full of this stuff... let me know if you are interested. If you are confused about something, perhaps you could ask more specifically... what is it that you would like to know about building an antenna? That might generate a more focused response. But in reality, the things that were offered really are the building blocks of an efficient antenna system... just because the terms seem like "conflicting jargon", it does not mean that is actually the case. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369233#369233 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:43 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plans for a simple antenna that should work. From: "tools" Well, the discussion wasn't intended to get whacky. From the start, this is what I had in mind. It's the "j pole" antenna I built over 20 years ago for a very similar frequency and it worked really well, in some very non favorable conditions (laying on the dash of a big metal van). I was using a handheld radio very similar to the aircraft handhelds (it was even an ICOM). I didn't know a thing about antennas when I built it, just followed the directions. I don't know if it'll work in a airplane, but I can't see why it won't. The dimensions are for about 144 mhz (which has a wavelength of 6.8 feet) and we want to make it for about 122 mhz (which has a wavelength of 8.0 feet). The entire length of the antenna should be 3/4 of a wavelength, but it's not. I think that's because of the particular 300 ohm brown flat lead TV antenna stuff used or something. So.... I'm going to make one using the theoretical measurements and one just scaled up by the percentage difference between 6.8 to 8 feet and see which one works best. It's basically a free antenna, so there's no harm in this. Takes about an hour to make at the most. Here's the article: http://www.harfordemcomm.org/files/twinlead.pdf Replace the numbers in figure 1. with these for the theoretically correct antenna: 72" overall length 1 1/2" from the end, 22 1/2" from there to the notch 1/4" notch 47 3/4" remaining. I haven't figured out the other dimensions because I'm not home and don't have a calculator and too lazy to use one online. I won't be able to get to this for a week or two at best, AND I lost my radio charger so I don't even have a radio to check it out on right now! However, 6.8 to 8 is what, about 12 to 15 percent increase? Whatever it is, just increase the measurements in the article by that. Antennas are just plain linear I think. There's not a huge difference anyway and this antenna isn't super picky. If someone has a little time and wants to play around and see if it works before I get to it, that would be great. If this does work as well as a vertical, there's no reason we can't make a zillion of them during Brodhead. Honestly, I never even "tuned" it for my ham radio. I just made it exactly like this article and used it. Always had good reports and it worked better than my magnetic mount 1/2 wave whip, which is essentially the same thing as most of us are using now. Cheers, Tools Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369236#369236 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:14 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Question for Mark Roberts about fuselage From: John Fay Mark, I'm behind on my email and just read your March 7th post, with the picture of your fuselage (with your wife sitting in the front cockpit). I notice you have added a door on the right side. Did you engineer that yourself, or did you by the plans from Kerry Price? (name-spelling?) ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:22:28 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans for a simple antenna that should work. From: "K5YAC" I can't give a definitive yea or nay on the "dashboard" J-pole design... build it, test it, tune it, test it again... who knows. The theory behind the J-pole is sound as you can adjust the J-leg to achieve proper tuning and the larger element (usually 1/2 wave) should provide better gain over the normal 1/4 wave verticals, but I don't think it's the best suited design for an airplane. They are also sensitive to surrounding metal objects, so that needs to be considered... and you will likely need a balun to provide the proper impedance... but hey, tinker away! If it doesn't work as well as you would like, just add more power! [Laughing] Let us know how it works out. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369245#369245 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:55:33 AM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: AAE antenna for $75 on ebay I've been doing a little searching on the antenna I've been using for the p ast 14 years in my Piet and it has some reviews/posts on both the J-3 Cub and Stearman owner's enthusiasts web sites. http://compare.ebay.com/like/180843784502?var=lv<yp=AllFixedPriceItem Types&var=sbar Chief Aircraft actually sells the antennas for less money than the manufact urer does here for $129 new rather than $149 from AAE. http://www.chiefaircraft.com/aircraft/antennas/advanced-aircraft-electronic s.html Mike C. Here a good deal on one: [cid:image001.png@01CD0904.E61AD610] ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:03:49 PM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: one word can really change the meaning....or one left out! I've been doing a little searching on the antenna I've been using for the p ast 14 years in my Piet and it has some good reviews/posts on both the J-3 Cub and Stearman owner's enthus iasts web sites. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:32:01 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: AAE antenna for $75 on ebay From: "K5YAC" That actually looks really neat Mike... I'm thinking it must be a folded dipole of some sort, which would explain the balun (inside the little box) in the center. You may have described this, but tell us, how do you have this mounted? Is it strung from front to rear in your turtledeck, or wrapped somehow? Dipoles don't typically offer the best omnidirectional characteristics, but hey, if it is matched well and functions well, no need to complicate matters. It does look to be simple to use and install. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369251#369251 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:13:56 PM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Stearman install of flexible AAE antenna http://www.stearman.net/?p=1035 Looks like this could very easily be done on a Piet too against one of the diagonals in the fuselage. You wouldn't even need the plywood backing they use to stiffen the antenna. The antenna itself is flexible so they coil it up into a circle to ship it but it expands flat. Mine is strung in the shape of an umbrella or upside down U behind my pilot seat inside the fuselage and below the baggage/hatbox area. Mike C. Here's a link to some photos of other Pietenpol-like fuselage installations: http://www.vintageaircraft.org/featured/2003%20-%20Vol.%2031,%20No.%2004%20-%20Radio%20and%20Antenna%20Installation.pdf ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:28:55 PM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Andrews' a-65 Hi Guys, I used an antenna with a built in ground plane and mounted it behind my seat. See http://www.cpc-world.com/new_card_images/images/IMG_0213_JPG.jpg The antenna is upside down but radio waves don't worry about than. Worked well. Peter Wonthaggi Australia http://www.cpc-world.com From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Douwe Blumberg Sent: Friday, 23 March 2012 11:54 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Andrews' a-65 First off, thanks all for the radio head help. I think we're narrowing down on a solution. I sure like the idea of a fin location because it gets it away from most of the hunks of metal (except for the brace wires) but not sure how to do a ground plane back there. Second choice is behind my cockpit but I have an aluminum baggage compartment there and am afraid between that and the control cables (and the cables from my shoulder harness) there will be too much interference. Still thinking. Andrew, your symptoms remind me of a time I ran an engine and it did the same thing. Turned out my fuel supply to the carb was bad and it would only run the bowl down then quit. Then while I tinkered, the bowl would slowly refill and it would run again. then quit. Douwe ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:22 PM PST US From: Dan Yocum Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Andrews' a-65 On 03/23/2012 03:28 PM, Peter W Johnson wrote: > Hi Guys, > > I used an antenna with a built in ground plane and mounted it behind my > seat. See http://www.cpc-world.com/new_card_images/images/IMG_0213_JPG.jpg > > The antenna is upside down but radio waves don't worry about than. That's ok though because you're upside down in Australia anyway. I'm sorry. I couldn't resist. ;-) do not archive ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:37 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stearman install of flexible AAE antenna From: "K5YAC" Interesting. I've made folded dipoles out of old twin lead feedline, like what was used on old TV antennas. Are these elements some sort of metal, or are they wire, or? I can't really tell from the photo... perhaps they are just flat metallic strips? Generally speaking, bending the antenna elements (in the case of a dipole) is poor practice because it has a negative effect on the radiation pattern and could also effect the impedance. I know, I know... too much information, but it's true. Not that it's a BAD thing, but again, to a radio guy, it certainly isn't a good thing. Hey, if it works, that's what counts. As far as the overall construction of these old low and slow airplanes, the radio system is certainly way down the list of items to fret over. Again, it's just something that some of us look at differently and would enjoy tinkering with. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369264#369264 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:11:31 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans for a simple antenna that should work. From: "tools" Here's another one worth trying. It's designed for our radios and our frequencies already. It's another one we could make a batch of at Brodhead. http://chrusion.com/BJ7/InvVeeAntenna4ULs.pdf Tools Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369265#369265 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:32:29 PM PST US From: "Dick N" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: SNF Hi Ben Skip and I saved a spot by us for you, give me a call when you get in, I should be able to get a cart to pick you up. Dick N. 612-805-1742 ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Charvet To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 9:54 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: SNF I'm watching the weather and gathering my camping gear. I'm hoping to try aircamping. Hope to find a campsite near yours. Ben Charvet Sent from my iPhone On Mar 22, 2012, at 8:25 PM, "Dick N" wrote: Hey all I am down here at Sun n Fun and have been here for a few days now. I hope to see lots of Piet people at the show. For anyone who is considering building a Piet, we will be building 2 fuselages at this show and also building wing ribs. For anyone who wants to help build stuff this is the place for it, we can also talk with people about questions. I know of one Piet at this point that is flying in, hopefully there will be more. Stop by Dick N. 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 04:05:48 PM PST US From: Ben Charvet Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: SNF Thanks, will do. Ben On 3/23/2012 6:31 PM, Dick N wrote: > Hi Ben > Skip and I saved a spot by us for you, give me a call when you get in, > I should be able to get a cart to pick you up. > Dick N. > 612-805-1742 > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Ben Charvet > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > *Sent:* Thursday, March 22, 2012 9:54 PM > *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: SNF > > I'm watching the weather and gathering my camping gear. I'm hoping > to try aircamping. Hope to find a campsite near yours. > Ben Charvet > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 22, 2012, at 8:25 PM, "Dick N" > wrote: > >> Hey all >> I am down here at Sun n Fun and have been here for a few days >> now. I hope to see lots of Piet people at the show. For anyone >> who is considering building a Piet, we will be building 2 >> fuselages at this show and also building wing ribs. >> For anyone who wants to help build stuff this is the place for >> it, we can also talk with people about questions. I know of >> one Piet at this point that is flying in, hopefully there will be >> more. >> Stop by >> Dick N. >> * >> >> >> * > * > > 3D============================================ > href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"'>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > 3D============================================ > href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com > 3D============================================ > href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > 3D============================================ > > * > > * > > > * -- Ben Charvet, PharmD Staff Pharmacist Parrish Medical center ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:36 PM PST US From: "Ray Krause" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: question for the radio geeks Mark, Other than Mike's recommendation; when you design one, would you please sketch it out and show us how best to mount it in our Piets? The "broom stick" antenna sounds about my speed (seeing as how my Sky Scout has lots of broom sticks in the fuselage!). Maybe you smart guys can help the rest of us out with a simple sketch that would work with most hand held radios. How and where to place it, etc.? One grateful guy, Ray Krause Sky Scout in progress ----- Original Message ----- From: "K5YAC" Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 7:54 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: question for the radio geeks > > You are exactly right Jack... polarization does have some effect on radio > signals. It shouldn't be tremendous, and I wouldn't think that it would > limit the range by 80%, but it's possible that a combination of things > could be having an effect. Also true is the fact that you don't need a > great deal of range when you are a slow mover, although as one that likes > to tinker I'd probably have another look at it if it were me. Perhaps > flying a knife-edge maneuver when using the radio would help. [Laughing] > > I don't mean to be critical of anyone's system, this is just one of those > areas that I enjoy, and I will definitely attempt to construct a homebrew > antenna system that gives me the most out of my handheld radio. Nope, I > won't be using gold plated connections, Teflon dielectric or anything real > fancy... just good engineering practices. Wish I had the same skill when > it comes to engines, metal work, etc. Ha! > > -------- > Mark Chouinard > Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369224#369224 > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:06 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: question for the radio geeks From: "K5YAC" Sure... I'll share my install when I get to that part. I can't guarantee that it will be anything amazing... in fact, it will likely be a copy of something that others have had success with... but it will be tuned and efficient. Will it do a better job than others antennas? Since we aren't contesting with these things that will be debatable, but I will strive for a simple, no-frills setup and share what I find. Don't everyone get all riled up if I come back with bandwidth plots and SWR readings! [Laughing] -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369272#369272 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.