---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 04/07/12: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:45 AM - Re: Wouldn't it be better if. . . (Ben Charvet) 2. 06:36 AM - Re: Wouldn't it be better if. . . (norm) 3. 06:36 AM - Re: Wouldn't it be better if. . . (tools) 4. 07:27 AM - Re: Wouldn't it be better if. . . (jimcarriere) 5. 07:38 AM - Re: Re: Wouldn't it be better if. . . (airlion) 6. 08:14 AM - Re: Re: Wouldn't it be better if. . . (Chris) 7. 08:30 AM - Re: Wouldn't it be better if. . . (flea) 8. 09:37 AM - Re: Wouldn't it be better if. . . (Jerry Dotson) 9. 10:09 AM - Re: Wouldn't it be better if. . . (jimcarriere) 10. 10:32 AM - fuse access (Douwe Blumberg) 11. 01:00 PM - Re: Wouldn't it be better if. . . (flea) 12. 01:40 PM - This came in the mail (Ben Charvet) 13. 01:52 PM - Re: This came in the mail (Ken Bickers) 14. 03:25 PM - Re: This came in the mail (Jack Phillips) 15. 04:32 PM - Re: This came in the mail (Ray Krause) 16. 05:12 PM - first flight (Donald Lane) 17. 06:33 PM - Re: first flight (Jack Phillips) 18. 06:45 PM - Re: This came in the mail (curtdm(at)gmail.com) 19. 10:26 PM - Re: fuse access (flea) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:45:23 AM PST US From: Ben Charvet Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wouldn't it be better if. . . Only problem I can see, is if you build the turtledeck light, the fabric might deform it when shrunk. Ben On 4/7/2012 1:09 AM, flea wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "flea" > > Ok, so I always told myself I wouldn't second guess 90 years of success. I wouldn't try re-inventing the better mousetrap or re-discovering fire. > > But here is my mousetrap. > > I have been working on my Piet for some time now, and the wood work is about 90% done. I have built and re-built it probably a dozen times now as things look wrong to me. One of these areas has been my turtle deck, you know that area with all the stringers - well mine was doo doo, so some quick work with a saw and it's gone. After seeing the plane with that turtle deck removed, I was struck with either a flash of brilliance, or an attack of cranial-rectal infusion. I need your help deciding which it is. > What I was thinking was that the turtle deck from behind the pilot's seat and extending back those first two bays could be removable or hinged to open like a lid on an old trunk. The idea is that upon completion, it would make inspection and maintenance MUCH easier than trying to go through some little inspection holes. > > Now if I understand the engineering correctly, the strength of the fuse comes from the 1X1 longerons and all of the associated trusses etc. The turtle deck is there for aerodynamic and aesthetic reasons. I am not proposing to change anything about the longerons or even the shape of the deck, just make it removable, and held on with a series of leather straps and buckles to fit in with the period of the design. > Am I way off on this? will I be adversely affecting the structural integrity of the design? That is of course the only real question, I don't want to sacrifice safety. > > I know I can do anything I want, but is this a dangerous plot destined for the headlines? > > Jim > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370192#370192 > > -- Ben Charvet, PharmD Staff Pharmacist Parrish Medical center ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:36:13 AM PST US From: norm Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wouldn't it be better if. . . That is exactly the way the Bowers Flybaby rear deck is done ,it's simply h eld in place with 2 dowels in the rear and hartwell latches in the cockpit , check out the Flybaby website.. Norm --- On Sat, 4/7/12, flea wrote: From: flea Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wouldn't it be better if. . . Ok, so I always told myself I wouldn't second guess 90 years of success. I wouldn't try re-inventing the better mousetrap or re-discovering fire. But here is my mousetrap. I have been working on my Piet for some time now, and the wood work is abou t 90% done. I have built and re-built it probably a dozen times now as thin gs look wrong to me. One of these areas has been my turtle deck, you know t hat area with all the stringers - well mine was doo doo, so some quick work with a saw and it's gone. After seeing the plane with that turtle deck rem oved, I was struck with either a flash of brilliance, or an attack of crani al-rectal infusion. I need your help deciding which it is. What I was thinking was that the turtle deck from behind the pilot's seat a nd extending back those first two bays could be removable or hinged to open like a lid on an old trunk. The idea is that upon completion, it would mak e inspection and maintenance MUCH easier than trying to go through some lit tle inspection holes. Now if I understand the engineering correctly, the strength of the fuse com es from the 1X1 longerons and all of the associated trusses etc. The turtle deck is there for aerodynamic and aesthetic reasons. I am not proposing to change anything about the longerons or even the shape of the deck, just ma ke it removable, and held on with a series of leather straps and buckles to fit in with the period of the design. Am I way off on this? will I be adversely affecting the structural integrit y- of the design? That is of course the only real question, I don't want to sacrifice safety. I know I- can do anything I want, but is this a dangerous plot destined f or the headlines? Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370192#370192 le, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:36:40 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wouldn't it be better if. . . From: "tools" The Standard J1 biplane has a similar fuse and removable turtle deck. Seems not to cause any problems. Tools Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370204#370204 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:53 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wouldn't it be better if. . . From: "jimcarriere" Something else to consider about the turtle deck is that it can help with the shoulder belt routing. This is a somewhat arcane subject that is near and dear to my heart... The short version is that the shoulder belt should attach to the aircraft behind and at approximately horizontal from your shoulders rather than behind and below (a behind-and-below attachment not only holds you in the seat but it can also compress your spine in a severe crash- but a straight behind attachment just holds you in the seat without hurting your back). The turtledeck can provide a really handy standoff for a shoulder belt guide and then the actual attachment point can be just about anywhere in the tail. The Bingelis book with the blue cover (Sportplane Builder) and AC 43.13-2b both do a good job of explaining this in pictures. ... and I know that a lot of you Piet builders out there know this because I look at your pictures of the beautiful work you've done on your airplanes :D Just some food for thought -Jim (Kitfox builder and Pietenpol aficionado) -------- Jim in NW FL Kitfox Series 7 in progress Rotec R2800 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370208#370208 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:04 AM PST US From: airlion Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wouldn't it be better if. . . where in nw florida are you Jim? I will be driving to Destin the latter part of April and would like to see your Kitfox if it is close by. Gardiner Mason. --- On Sat, 4/7/12, jimcarriere wrote: > From: jimcarriere > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wouldn't it be better if. . . > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Date: Saturday, April 7, 2012, 10:27 AM > --> Pietenpol-List message posted > by: "jimcarriere" > > Something else to consider about the turtle deck is that it > can help with the shoulder belt routing. This is a > somewhat arcane subject that is near and dear to my > heart... > > The short version is that the shoulder belt should attach to > the aircraft behind and at approximately horizontal from > your shoulders rather than behind and below (a > behind-and-below attachment not only holds you in the seat > but it can also compress your spine in a severe crash- but a > straight behind attachment just holds you in the seat > without hurting your back). The turtledeck can provide > a really handy standoff for a shoulder belt guide and then > the actual attachment point can be just about anywhere in > the tail. > > The Bingelis book with the blue cover (Sportplane Builder) > and AC 43.13-2b both do a good job of explaining this in > pictures. > > ... and I know that a lot of you Piet builders out there > know this because I look at your pictures of the beautiful > work you've done on your airplanes > :D > > > > Just some food for thought > -Jim > (Kitfox builder and Pietenpol aficionado) > > -------- > Jim in NW FL > Kitfox Series 7 in progress > Rotec R2800 > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370208#370208 > > > > > > > > Email Forum - > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:14:11 AM PST US From: "Chris" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wouldn't it be better if. . . Jim Here is a sketch Mike Cuy drew of his access door. http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Mike%20Cuy%20A-65%20Piet/images/Piet_belly_a ccess_door.jpg Chris Sacramento, Ca Westcoastpiet.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of flea Sent: Friday, April 06, 2012 11:10 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wouldn't it be better if. . . Weight is always a concern, and one I have thought about. But like I said, or meant to say anyhow, it is very open with it removed. I hadn't thought about an aluminum panel on the bottom though, that might well be a better idea. What prompted the question is that I have studied literally hundreds of pictures in every stage of construction, thank you everyone that has uploaded to west coast piet. And have never seen that in there. figured there must be a reason. Anyway, AL panel on the bottom sounds like a better idea. Thanks. Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370194#370194 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:30:17 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wouldn't it be better if. . . From: "flea" I really appreciate all the input. Now I'm going back to the removeable deck again. I like the idea of being able to peer down in there. Jim, the shoulder belt routing should not be affected by this at all. That bulkhead that has the hat box in it will still be there with the belt slots cut in it. The front bulkhead of the removeable portion would be open enough to allow the box to still be there and for the belts to run through. Think of a big C made of ply. As far as being too flimsy for the covering, that was the reason I cut off the original I built. This would have the same basic design, the primary difference is that it would be built on longerons of their own rather the plane's longerons. At any rate, if there is no structural/safety reason not to do it, then I will just build it up and see how the weight looks. From a praticality stand point, a 52 x 24 inch inspection hole is tough to beat. Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370215#370215 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:37:19 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wouldn't it be better if. . . From: "Jerry Dotson" I made an aluminum sheet frame and cover it with fabric. It is not very heavy and seems to work fine. The picture is of the inside showing the frame. -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 now covering and painting 21" wheels Lycoming O-235 C2C Jay Anderson CloudCars prop 76 X 44 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370219#370219 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/a14_109.jpg ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:09:48 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wouldn't it be better if. . . From: "jimcarriere" [quote="flea"] Jim, the shoulder belt routing should not be affected by this at all. That bulkhead that has the hat box in it will still be there with the belt slots cut in it. The front bulkhead of the removeable portion would be open enough to allow the box to still be there and for the belts to run through. Think of a big C made of ply.[/quote] Ah, thank you- this makes plenty of sense to me. It seems that I misunderstood your initial post. (I hope I didn't come across as the pontificating guest in the group.) Cheers Jim -------- Jim in NW FL Kitfox Series 7 in progress Rotec R2800 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370223#370223 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:32:37 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: fuse access Since you really don't need to access the fuselage behind the pilot's seat very often, I think it makes more sense to simply install a very thin aluminum sheet on the bottom of those first two bays. Really only adds a few ounces over cloth, and is very adequate for the occasional inspection, and it would certainly weigh less than a hinged turtledeck. Cool idea, but sounds unnecessarily gimmicky and kinda like over thinking a relatively "non-issue" item. $.02 (and worth every penny!) Douwe ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:00:35 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wouldn't it be better if. . . From: "flea" jimcarriere wrote: > > Ah, thank you- this makes plenty of sense to me. It seems that I misunderstood your initial post. (I hope I didn't come across as the pontificating guest in the group.) > > Cheers > Jim Not at all. I am looking for input, if there is a safety (most important) reason for not doing it that I can't see, I want to know about it. Deviating from the plans in a significant way should involve engineering. I am not an engineer, so I have not deviated at all to this point. This one change has had me thinking for some time and asking for input. I really do appreciate this list and all the photos on westcoastpiet. These two sources have been of tremendous value. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370243#370243 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:40:50 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: This came in the mail From: Ben Charvet Well, it was the only all wood homebuilt there Sent from my iPhone
________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:52:18 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: This came in the mail From: Ken Bickers Congratulations!! On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 2:40 PM, Ben Charvet wrote: > Well, it was the only all wood homebuilt there > > > Sent from my iPhone > 

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________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:25:38 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: This came in the mail Outstanding, Ben! Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Charvet Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 4:40 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: This came in the mail Well, it was the only all wood homebuilt there ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:32:32 PM PST US From: "Ray Krause" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: This came in the mail Ben, >From what I have seen in all the photos, you certainly deserve this! Congratulations. Ray Krause Building Sky Scout ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Charvet" Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 1:40 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: This came in the mail > Well, it was the only all wood homebuilt there > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Sent from my iPhone > 

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________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:12:01 PM PST US From: "Donald Lane" Subject: Pietenpol-List: first flight Today I flew Pietenpol N110DL for the first time. It was flown by a friend,last year, the day before Hurricane Irene. Just two friends were there and the only picture we got was a 13 sec video. There were thousands of seagulls as witnesses, you can hear their voices in the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvrfW4WaVMQ&context=C4fc3695ADvjVQa1Pp cFOwpmtyF8YdSrDkk5TXXrih7zfjGMGLFm4 I seem to have solved the sticking exhaust valve problem, by putting a little Marvel Mystery Oil in the fuel. The engine runs great now. The airplane handles well, but I need to get smoother air to really get the feel of it. Many thanks to all on the list who have given me good advice and encouragement, especially Jack Phillips. Don Lane ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:16 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: first flight Great, Don! Glad to hear that you've finally gotten to fly your beautiful Pietenpol. Now you need to fly the time off so you can fly it to Brodhead and let everyone else see what a fine airplane you've built. Jacl Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Donald Lane Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 8:10 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: first flight Today I flew Pietenpol N110DL for the first time. It was flown by a friend,last year, the day before Hurricane Irene. Just two friends were there and the only picture we got was a 13 sec video. There were thousands of seagulls as witnesses, you can hear their voices in the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvrfW4WaVMQ &context=C4fc3695ADvjVQa1PpcFOwpmtyF8YdSrDkk5TXXrih7zfjGMGLFm4 I seem to have solved the sticking exhaust valve problem, by putting a little Marvel Mystery Oil in the fuel. The engine runs great now. The airplane handles well, but I need to get smoother air to really get the feel of it. Many thanks to all on the list who have given me good advice and encouragement, especially Jack Phillips. Don Lane ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:13 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: This came in the mail From: "curtdm(at)gmail.com" Congratulations Ben! I can't wait to see it in person. Curt Merdan Flower Mound, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370258#370258 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:26:42 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: fuse access From: "flea" I'm good at creating non-issues then over thinking them. The hinge would be difficult anyway, there is a gentle curve in the fuse. Anyway, I will put this side trip on the back burner for a while. I know have other ideas to kick around, Aluminum sheet on the bottom for one. The idea was to make inspection and access easier. A flat sheet on the bottom does that just as well and is easier. For now I will work on some other things and let this simmer for a while. Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370269#370269 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.