Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:53 AM - Dangerous Dave's Piet (Douwe Blumberg)
2. 05:55 AM - Re: Re: Wing Tip Bows (skipgadd@earthlink.net)
3. 06:07 AM - Re: aileron deflection (899PM)
4. 06:13 AM - Re: Re: Wing Tip Bows (Michael Perez)
5. 06:28 AM - Re: another step forward (TOM STINEMETZE)
6. 06:47 AM - considering a piet build (nightmare)
7. 06:58 AM - Re: considering a piet build (Jack Phillips)
8. 07:37 AM - Wing Hinge Strap (Kringle)
9. 07:46 AM - Re: Wing Hinge Strap (kevinpurtee)
10. 07:48 AM - Re: Wing Tip Bows (K5YAC)
11. 07:53 AM - Re: Wing Hinge Strap (Jack Phillips)
12. 07:58 AM - Re: Wing Hinge Strap (K5YAC)
13. 08:14 AM - Re: Wing Hinge Strap (Michael Perez)
14. 08:20 AM - Re: considering a piet build (Michael Perez)
15. 08:44 AM - Re: Wing Hinge Strap (K5YAC)
16. 08:51 AM - Re: considering a piet build (John Hofmann)
17. 08:54 AM - Re: Wing Tip Bows (pineymb)
18. 09:46 AM - Re: Need some help....off topic... (C N Campbell)
19. 10:22 AM - Re: Dangerous Dave's Piet (Jerry Dotson)
20. 10:49 AM - Re: Wing Hinge Strap (Catdesigns)
21. 10:55 AM - Re: Need some help....off topic... (K5YAC)
22. 11:47 AM - Re: Wing Hinge Strap (K5YAC)
23. 11:50 AM - Re: Wing Tip Bows (Bill Church)
24. 11:51 AM - more pictures (Bob edson)
25. 12:06 PM - Re: Wing Hinge Strap (Kringle)
26. 12:19 PM - Re: Wing Hinge Strap (kevinpurtee)
27. 01:04 PM - Re: considering a piet build (nightmare)
28. 01:21 PM - Re: Re: considering a piet build (gboothe5@comcast.net)
29. 01:53 PM - Re: Re: considering a piet build (Ben Charvet)
30. 02:00 PM - Re: Re: considering a piet build (Jack Phillips)
31. 02:11 PM - Re: considering a piet build (kevinpurtee)
32. 02:21 PM - Re: considering a piet build (K5YAC)
33. 02:55 PM - For Our New Friends - Who Builds and Flies (kevinpurtee)
34. 03:30 PM - Re: For Our New Friends - Who Builds and Flies (Kringle)
35. 03:39 PM - Re: For Our New Friends - Who Builds and Flies (kevinpurtee)
36. 03:41 PM - Re: Cowling Bumps (curtdm(at)gmail.com)
37. 03:56 PM - Re: Cowling Bumps (kevinpurtee)
38. 04:13 PM - Re: considering a piet build (nightmare)
39. 04:22 PM - FW: Re: Cowling Bumps (Gary Boothe)
40. 04:57 PM - Re: Wing Hinge Strap (shad bell)
41. 05:17 PM - Re: aileron deflection (Mild Bill)
42. 05:35 PM - Re: considering a piet build (Jerry Dotson)
43. 05:41 PM - Re: For Our New Friends - Who Builds and Flies (Greg Cardinal)
44. 06:01 PM - Re: Re: considering a piet build (AMsafetyC@aol.com)
45. 07:52 PM - OT The other end of the performance envelope. 787 (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB)
46. 11:40 PM - Re: Re: considering a piet build (Dick N)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Dangerous Dave's Piet |
Someone asked about the status of Dangerous Dave's "quick-build" Piet.
I emailed him a few months ago since we haven't heard much after the first
flight, and he didn't say a lot. Sounds like it hasn't flown much, that
he's been very busy and the plane has moved airports. I too got the
impression that he was disappointed with it's performance, but I think it
was a pretty high runway.
That's about all I Know. Dave, if you're still following the list, we'd
sure be interested in a flight report.
Douwe
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Tip Bows |
You are right Gary, had to look in the archives to recall what I said, Aug
8 2009. I agree with you, it is a good idea to measure corner to corner
both ways frequently while assembling the wing, so the wing is as close as
possible to square before you do the actual trammeling with turnbuckles.
Skip
> [Original Message]
> From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net>
> To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 4/15/2012 1:47:41 PM
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Tip Bows
>
>
> Additional thought, John...I think it was Skip Gadd who talked about
> trammeling at least 3 times, during each phase of the construct. Seems
like
> it would be a mistake to trammel the first time after the leading and
> trailing edges are on.
>
> Gary from Cool
> NX308MB
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| Subject: | Re: aileron deflection |
Using .040" thick piano hinges for my ailerons and dimpling for 10-32 flatheads(to
set flush), I get 20.6 degrees of down travel before the hinge plates close
tight on each other.
--------
PAPA MIKE
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Tip Bows |
That's cool to see. My wing tips look a lot like this one.
Michael Perez
Pietenpol HINT Videos
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
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| Subject: | Re: another step forward |
Beautiful Bob! Your panel looks great and your veneer job puts mine to shame.
Also, I love that checkerboard pattern on the control stick knob. I can imagine
how long it took to get that to come out right.
Stinemetze
do not archive
>>> "Bob edson" <robertse@centurytel.net> 4/14/2012 4:13 PM >>>
We started putting it back together today. Piet is on it's feet. Pictures not the
best but you can see what it will look like. The wings are painted like the
stabilizer. Thats my son in the picture. Bob
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| Subject: | considering a piet build |
how does it fly ( climb, handle, stall , ground hanle) compared to a cub. previously
owned a 1940 c85 cub. thinking of building one and teaching my two boys
( now 8 and 12 years) how to fly in it.
also; love the wood struts, and gear, do builders just cover in spar varnish or
fiberglass or just epoxy resin?
Read this topic online here:
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| Subject: | considering a piet build |
Nightmare?
First, what is your real name and where do you live? We kind of like to
know names so we can put them with faces when we meet at Brodhead.
Second, a Pietenpol flies more like a Cub than anything else I've ever flown
- that's why I built one. I used to own a 1946 J-3 with a Continental 65
and chose to build a Pietenpol because I couldn't afford to buy a Cub at
today's prices.
I will say having flown both types, the Cub style "Improved" Pietenpol gear
is easier to land than the straight axle wire wheel variety. If I were
building one with an eye towards teaching kids to fly in it, I would build
the Cub-Style gear.
As for the wood struts, I have laminated spruce landing gear struts on mine
and simply coated them with 4 coats of epoxy varnish, and they've held up
very well in nearly 8 years of flying. For wooden lift struts and cabane
struts I expect epoxy varnish would do even better (the landing gear takes
more abuse from tall grass, rocks, etc.).
Good Luck!
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nightmare
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 9:47 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: considering a piet build
<pauldonahuepilot@yahoo.com>
how does it fly ( climb, handle, stall , ground hanle) compared to a cub.
previously owned a 1940 c85 cub. thinking of building one and teaching my
two boys ( now 8 and 12 years) how to fly in it.
also; love the wood struts, and gear, do builders just cover in spar
varnish or fiberglass or just epoxy resin?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370934#370934
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| Subject: | Wing Hinge Strap |
Since the center section wing straps go on the inside of the wing straps I am assuming
the plywood on the wing must be cut out for clearance? Looks like I missed
this on the plans :(
John
--------
John
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Hinge Strap |
I built a one piece wing, John, so I don't know, but if you're assumption is right
that's why you have a dremel tool.
do not archive
--------
Kevin "Axel" Purtee
NX899KP
Austin/San Marcos, TX
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Tip Bows |
I'll be darn... the plans don't show it that way! The only braces I have are the
ones shown in the plans (in red), but the plans also show a spruce wing tip
bow, where I made mine from white pine. Perhaps I should look at adding the
compression strut and additional braces that the 66 model have.
--------
Mark Chouinard
Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage
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| Subject: | Wing Hinge Strap |
One of those little areas in the plans that simply can't be built as drawn.
Vi Kapler put those in just to see if you were paying attention.
The straps are .090" thick, or nearly the same as a piece of 3/32" plywood.
You'll have to figure out how to arrange the doublers so the straps can
overlap each other. I chose to just put the plywood doublers on the wing
spars and omit them on the centersection spars, allowing the wing straps to
just slip over the centersection straps as shown in the photo below:
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kringle
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 10:36 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing Hinge Strap
Since the center section wing straps go on the inside of the wing straps I
am assuming the plywood on the wing must be cut out for clearance? Looks
like I missed this on the plans :(
John
--------
John
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Hinge Strap |
You are right John, but it isn't really pointed out in the plans.
--------
Mark Chouinard
Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Hinge Strap |
If it is not too late John, you can add another piece of plywood under your CS
straps to make room for the wing strap.
Michael Perez
Pietenpol HINT Videos
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
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| Subject: | Re: considering a piet build |
Nightmare, welcome.
I can't answer any flying characteristic questions as my plane is still being built.
However, on the wood...a varnish or some sort of wood protectant is needed.
I use spar varnish on mine.
Personally, I am fine with call signs.
Michael Perez
Pietenpol HINT Videos
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Hinge Strap |
Or you can just remove your wing straps and Dremel/file/sand the material you need
removed for clearance.
--------
Mark Chouinard
Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage
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Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: considering a piet build |
As an owner of both I have to concur with what Jack stated. The Piet is
very similar to the Cub in lot of ways. A few observations below:
The Piet is a bit faster. My Cub is slow and 502rocket is pretty quick.
I cruise easily at 75-77 and my Cub cruises at about 72.
The sight lines are similar. Backseat solo gives the same lack of
visibility that at Cub gives, especially on the ground. It is easier to
lean your head out of the Piet to see around.
Major flight numbers are about the same for both. Climb and final speeds
the same. The Piet does have a much worse glide ratio than a Cub. Just
plan accordingly.
Stall is sharper than a Cub. Nothing bad but it drops quickly and is
easily picked up with proper technique. Te be fair I have vortex
generators on the Cub so it does not really stall at all. It just kind
of mushes and nods its head.
The Cub is much easier to load/unload and is more capable of giving the
fat guy a ride. It does have seven more feet of wing and is more
tolerant of CG and gross weight issues.
The Cub has brakes for both occupants, a must for instruction. I have
not seen a Piet that had brakes in the front but I bet it has been done
with weight penalties and seldom use.
The Cub rides turbulence better. When in bumps in a Cub one seems to
instinctively be able to predict the airplane's response. In the
Pietenpol it is "wahoo" we are along for the ride. I just pull the
shoulder strap a little tighter. My daughter loves it because "it is
like being in a roller coaster."
Cub has a door that closes and some semblance of cabin heat, however,
nothing is quite like the feeling of open cockpit.
That is about all I can think of for now.
-john-
John Hofmann
Vice-President, Information Technology
The Rees Group, Inc.
2424 American Lane
Madison, WI 53704
Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150
Fax: 608.443.2474
Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com
On Apr 16, 2012, at 10:18 AM, Michael Perez wrote:
> Nightmare, welcome.
>
> I can't answer any flying characteristic questions as my plane is
still being built. However, on the wood...a varnish or some sort of wood
protectant is needed. I use spar varnish on mine.
>
> Personally, I am fine with call signs.
>
> Michael Perez
> Pietenpol HINT Videos
> Karetaker Aero
> www.karetakeraero.com
>
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Tip Bows |
Another wing tip bow example with a built up last rib and capping for additional
strength. Not sure how much difference this makes when in compression but probably
can't hurt.
--------
Adrian M
Winnipeg, MB
Canada
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| Subject: | Re: Need some help....off topic... |
Jim, I rebuilt a Piper PA22 a few years back and when I got ready to fly it,
I took the spark plugs out and turned the engine over with the starter until
the oil pressure built up. I then reinstalled the plugs, put fuel in the
tanks, and started the engine normally. The engine ran fine until I sold it
a couple of years later. A little MMO in the oil also helped a lot. It
frees the rings and gives much better compression. Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle@mindspring.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 7:13 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Need some help....off topic...
> <jim_markle@mindspring.com>
>
> A pilot friend passed on about a year (or two) ago and his Champ has just
> been sitting...his daughter owns it now....it's on a grass strip about a
> mile from us.
>
> I've recommended to her that we at least pull it out of the hangar and
> start it from time to time. And she's fine with me taking it up if I
> want. (Of course I'm fine with that!). Mainly I hate to see it waste
> away...and it will if we don't do something.
>
> So do we just start propping to get it started or is there some process we
> need to follow for an aircraft that's been sitting for so long?
>
> Sorry for such an "off topic" request but....well....maybe this could lead
> to me getting some tailwheel time (yes, I know, ONLY after getting some
> tailwheel training...) but that might make me a better Piet pilot, right?
> :-)
>
> If someone has experience with such and could tell me what to watch for
> and give some pointers it would be appreciated.
>
> Offlist please.
>
> Thanks,
> Jim in Pryor (where the storms might pass us by this time....)
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Dangerous Dave's Piet |
The last time I heard from Dave was last September. He was flying his Piet a lot.
He changed the prop and got happy with it. He said he got 70 knots at 2300
rpm. He also moved his gear forward. It flies hands off at that power setting
after adding a rudder trim tab.
do not archive
--------
Jerry Dotson
59 Daniel Johnson Rd
Baker, FL 32531
Started building NX510JD July, 2009
now covering and painting
21" wheels
Lycoming O-235 C2C
Jay Anderson CloudCars prop 76 X 44
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Hinge Strap |
As it typical when building a Pietenpol, if you look closely, its on the plans.
Take note of the wood grain on the drawings then you will notice there is 3/32-inch
plywood under the straps on the wing side and a triangle piece of 3/32-inch
ply that is below (below not under) the strap on the center section side.
Center section side
http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Chris%20Tracy/images/IMG_1978.JPG
Wing Side
http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Chris%20Tracy/images/Center_Fitting_Back_Side.JPG
--------
Chris
Sacramento, CA
WestCoastPiet.com
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| Subject: | Re: Need some help....off topic... |
Jim, I know the guy who did some of the maintenance and quite possibly the last
annual on that airplane. Shot you a text.
--------
Mark Chouinard
Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Hinge Strap |
I think what John is talking about is the area in red. It looks pretty obvious,
but isn't really called out as needing clearance.
--------
Mark Chouinard
Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Tip Bows |
When I read some of the replies, mentioning how the wingtip bow is actually a compression
strut, I thought "that can't be right", since it is curved, and it
sits out on the ends of the spars (fastened with brackets and screws). But then
I took another look at the plans, and saw that it actually would act as a compression
strut. Not really an ideal design , since all of the compressive forces
are actually acting on the screws, rather than on the strut itself. While
the 1966 BHP wing shown in Dan's photo does add a little bit of weight, it does
seem to be a better design (in terms of providing a proper compression strut
at the wing tip). When the time comes, I think I'll build mine like that (or
similarly).
Bill C.
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Update with tail on and wheels on. some more pictures, Bob
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Hinge Strap |
Mark is correct but with the right tool (laminate trimmer) the job was easy. Thanks
to all for the help. I love this list!
--------
John
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Hinge Strap |
You 'da man, John!
do not archive
--------
Kevin "Axel" Purtee
NX899KP
Austin/San Marcos, TX
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| Subject: | Re: considering a piet build |
Wow , you guys are great. thanks for all the quick responses. My name is Paul Donahue
and i live in royal palm beach florida (5 miles west of west palm beach
int'l). If you don't mind , here is a couple of more questions for you.
1.Has any one built a stretch wing Piet? (i know, stick to the plans)
2. Do builders use AN hardware or is the grade 8 nuts and bolts at the hardware
store sufficient? (i believe it is same grade steel, usually courser threading
though at hardware store)
3. I saw Keri Anns webpage, beautiful bird. any nonbias opinions on the removable
wing option ? would love to have option of removing or even folding the
wings to bring home.
4. are there any piet builders / owners near me?
5. how about opinions on building out of poplar?
Thanks again; seems like a tight knit group
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370982#370982
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: considering a piet build |
Paul,
I can only answer one of those: Mine is almost all Poplar (not yet flying); but
when it does fly, it won't be the only Poplar Piet.
Oh...stay away from that non-A/C hardware stuff!
Welcome!
Gary from Cool
------Original Message------
From: nightmare
Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
ReplyTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: considering a piet build
Sent: Apr 16, 2012 1:02 PM
Wow , you guys are great. thanks for all the quick responses. My name is Paul Donahue
and i live in royal palm beach florida (5 miles west of west palm beach
int'l). If you don't mind , here is a couple of more questions for you.
1.Has any one built a stretch wing Piet? (i know, stick to the plans)
2. Do builders use AN hardware or is the grade 8 nuts and bolts at the hardware
store sufficient? (i believe it is same grade steel, usually courser threading
though at hardware store)
3. I saw Keri Anns webpage, beautiful bird. any nonbias opinions on the removable
wing option ? would love to have option of removing or even folding the
wings to bring home.
4. are there any piet builders / owners near me?
5. how about opinions on building out of poplar?
Thanks again; seems like a tight knit group
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370982#370982
Sent on the Sprint Now Network from my BlackBerry
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| Subject: | Re: considering a piet build |
1. I know of at least one "stretched wing" Piet that was up in the
Jacksonville area (Pat Green's)
2. You can't easily buy Grade 8 bolts in 3/16 size, and judging by my
trip to the hardware store yesterday, I'm not sure they dould be any
cheaper. In Florida you can get anything from Aircraft Spruce out of
Atlanta in 2 days.
4, I'm located in Titusville, just 150 miles north of you.
5. I built my Pietenpol out of Douglas Fir that I bought locally, and
used Okoume plywood that I bought in Palm Beach County.
This really is a good group and they were all a great help during my build.
Ben Charvet
Titusville, Fl
NX866BC, 125 hrs so far
On 4/16/2012 4:02 PM, nightmare wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "nightmare"<pauldonahuepilot@yahoo.com>
>
> Wow , you guys are great. thanks for all the quick responses. My name is Paul
Donahue and i live in royal palm beach florida (5 miles west of west palm beach
int'l). If you don't mind , here is a couple of more questions for you.
> 1.Has any one built a stretch wing Piet? (i know, stick to the plans)
> 2. Do builders use AN hardware or is the grade 8 nuts and bolts at the hardware
store sufficient? (i believe it is same grade steel, usually courser threading
though at hardware store)
> 3. I saw Keri Anns webpage, beautiful bird. any nonbias opinions on the
removable wing option ? would love to have option of removing or even folding
the wings to bring home.
> 4. are there any piet builders / owners near me?
> 5. how about opinions on building out of poplar?
>
> Thanks again; seems like a tight knit group
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370982#370982
>
>
--
Ben Charvet, PharmD
Staff Pharmacist
Parrish Medical center
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| Subject: | Re: considering a piet build |
Paul,
Bill Rewey was always talking about building a "Super Pietenpol" with a
longer wing, to approximate the wing loading of a Cub. I don't know if any
have ever been built. Mine has a 6" longer than normal wingspan, but that
was done to increase the volume in the centersection to give more fuel
capacity. I will say that making such a change has dramatic ripple effects
running through the entire airplane. The best flying Pietenpols seem to be
the ones that were built closest to the plans.
As Gary said - use aircraft hardware. It is not that much more expensive
(maybe less than Grade 8 hardware), and the fine threads will be much more
effective for getting accurate torques and for preventing loosening due to
vibration. Besides, when you are getting bounced around by turbulence, it
is reassuring to not have to wonder if your hardware is going to fail.
Opinions on folding wings for a Piet? While that is always an attractive
option for people thinking of building an airplane, I've never seen it done
in practice. With a Pietenpol, I think it would be a pain due to having to
tighten and safety wire the turnbuckles on the bracing wires between the
struts every time you wanted to go flying. Also, many Pietenpols use simple
bronze bushings on their axles, and while that is more than adequate for the
amount of taxiing done at an airport, I wouldn't take any bets on how long a
bushing would last being towed at highway speeds. Of course you could load
it on a trailer, but that too is expensive. Weight is critical with these
airplanes, and any wing folding mechanism is going to add weight that you
can ill afford to add. As Walt evans used to say on this list "Simplicate
and add Lightness". A wing folding mechanism does neither.
There are severl Pietenpol builders/flyers in Florida. I'll leave it to
them to contact you.
As Gary said, there have been several Piets built of poplar. It is a good
light wood. Not as light as spruce (Poplar is 16% heavier than sitka
spruce), but somewhat stronger (Poplar's numbers generally run about 20%
higher than spruce), so it has about the same strength to weight ratio. It
works easily (nearly as easy as spruce, and much better than Douglas Fir,
the other common choiceof non-aircraft grade woods). So all in all it is
not a bad choice, particularly if you have a lot of experience in grading
and selecting wood. Bear in mind that if you are choosing a wood other than
aircraft grade spruce just to save money, the cost of the wood in a
Pietenpol is something around 10% of the total price of the airplane, using
aircraft spruce. You will spend so much more money on other things
(primarily the engine) that the cost of wood is insignificant.
Good luck with all your choices.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nightmare
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 4:03 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: considering a piet build
<pauldonahuepilot@yahoo.com>
Wow , you guys are great. thanks for all the quick responses. My name is
Paul Donahue and i live in royal palm beach florida (5 miles west of west
palm beach int'l). If you don't mind , here is a couple of more questions
for you.
1.Has any one built a stretch wing Piet? (i know, stick to the plans)
2. Do builders use AN hardware or is the grade 8 nuts and bolts at the
hardware store sufficient? (i believe it is same grade steel, usually
courser threading though at hardware store)
3. I saw Keri Anns webpage, beautiful bird. any nonbias opinions on the
removable wing option ? would love to have option of removing or even
folding the wings to bring home.
4. are there any piet builders / owners near me?
5. how about opinions on building out of poplar?
Thanks again; seems like a tight knit group
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370982#370982
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| Subject: | Re: considering a piet build |
Hi Paul - Welcome. This group is a family, and like all families you'll find some
dysfunction. Spend some time here and you'll figure out whose advice you
really want. There are a lot of smart, talented people in the group. I personally
seek guidance from builders who have completed a plane and fly it a lot.
There's something about "flight proven" that you just can't beat. You'll get
a lot of advice from fellows who haven't finished their planes and who don't
have their pilot's license. They're not necessarily wrong, but they're strictly
theoretical.
Your questions:
1) Jack Phillips built a stretch wing and says he regrets it.
2) AN Hardware.
3) If you need removable/folding wings you may want to consider another design.
4) There are builders in FL.
5) Gary Boothe has built an entire airplane from poplar. His workmanship is superb.
I'm flying wooden wing struts Gary built for me. Anyway, it's up to you.
Spruce is the standard, and the spruce from Aircraft Spruce & Specialty has
been graded. In the grand scheme of things there's not that much price advantage.
My comments:
1) Get familiar with searching the list archives.
2) Get the 4 Tony Bingelis books from EAA. EAA's wood and welding books are also
good. Finally, the FAA AC 43-13...whatever is the bible.
3) Plan on attending Brodhead.
Again, welcome.
--------
Kevin "Axel" Purtee
NX899KP
Austin/San Marcos, TX
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| Subject: | Re: considering a piet build |
Just wanted to say welcome, Paul! I'm still building, so can't offer a lot of
practical advice.
As Jack said, "Good luck with your choices"... there are plenty to consider.
--------
Mark Chouinard
Wings, Center Section and Empannage and Fuse framed up - Working on Landing Gear
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| Subject: | For Our New Friends - Who Builds and Flies |
I encourage our new members to pay particular attention to people on the list who
have built their own airplanes and who fly them a lot. Please add names of
active builder/flyers to the list so they know who I'm talking about. I did
not include people I have not seen on the list.
List members who built their planes and actively fly: Mike Cuy, Jack Phillips,
Larry Williams, Don Emch, Shad & Gary Bell, Randy Bush, Ben Charvet, Greg Cardinal,
Lowell Frank, Dan Helsper, Hans van der Voort, Tim Mickel, PF Beck, Kevin
Purtee.
Cuy, Phillips, Williams, Emch, the Bells, Bush and Purtee fly several hundred mile
cross-country flights.
Please feel free to add on. I know I didn't get everyone.
--------
Kevin "Axel" Purtee
NX899KP
Austin/San Marcos, TX
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| Subject: | Re: For Our New Friends - Who Builds and Flies |
Kevin,
As a relatively new member, I am aware of these people and seek them out when I
travel to Brodhead. Many on this list, including you, have met me but just don't
remember it. Although I greatly appreciate everyones suggestions and comments,
those builders and flyers you've named carry more weight when I make my
decisions. Thanks to all for your help.
John
--------
John
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| Subject: | Re: For Our New Friends - Who Builds and Flies |
Did I like you, John? :D
Actually, every year I get better at recognizing members of our on-line Piet family.
Lest I overstate my position: there are many people on this list who have not finished
their projects but who I respect deeply as builders. I listen to them.
The corollary is that some people who have finished and fly may not be the
best source of information in some cases. But there's a special tenacity in a
builder who flies his finished airplane 600+ miles to Brodhead that might be
worth exploring.
do not archive,
and wear your name tag at Brodhead,
and remind me who you are,
and if I'm busy talking with another Piet person or flying then come find me in
the cove later.
--------
Kevin "Axel" Purtee
NX899KP
Austin/San Marcos, TX
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| Subject: | Re: Cowling Bumps |
I knew it resembled something.........
Curt Merdan
Flower Mound, TX
Do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370996#370996
Attachments:
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| Subject: | Re: Cowling Bumps |
I think your stock just went way up, Curt.
do not archive
--------
Kevin "Axel" Purtee
NX899KP
Austin/San Marcos, TX
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| Subject: | Re: considering a piet build |
thank you for all the info. i'll search previous entries and order some books to
verify this is the plane for me. thanks; Paul Donahue
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| Subject: | Re: Cowling Bumps |
I tried my own for a pattern...but it was WAY too big...
Gary Boothe
NX308MB
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
curtdm(at)gmail.com
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 3:40 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cowling Bumps
--> <curtdm@gmail.com>
I knew it resembled something.........
Curt Merdan
Flower Mound, TX
Do not archive
Read this topic online here:
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| Subject: | Wing Hinge Strap |
Another option (if not mentioned earlier) that many airplane designs do is
use 1/4 inch plates (doublers)-on the c/s spars, and 1/8 inch plates on t
he outboard wing spars.- this way the outboard -wing spar fittings fit
inside the c/s spar fittings.- The plywood spar doublers act to prevent t
he spars from splitting.- As you can see there are many ways to skin-th
is cat.
-
Shad-
-
From: Jack Phillips <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wing Hinge Strap
One of those little areas in the plans that simply can't be built as drawn.
-Vi Kapler put those in just to see if you were paying attention.
-
The straps are .090" thick, or nearly the same as a piece of 3/32" plywood.
- You'll have to figure out how to arrange the doublers so the straps can
overlap each other.- I chose to just put the plywood doublers on the win
g spars and omit them on the centersection spars, allowing the wing straps
to just slip over the centersection straps as shown in the photo below:
-
-
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
-
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kringle
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 10:36 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing Hinge Strap
-
-
Since the center section wing straps go on the inside of the wing straps I
am assuming the plywood on the wing must be cut out for clearance?- Looks
like I missed this on the plans- :(
-
John
-
--------
John
-
-
-
-
Read this topic online here:
-
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370941#370941
-
-
-
-
Attachments:
-
http://forums.matronics.com//files/ws1_700.jpg
-
-
-
-
-
-
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| Subject: | Re: aileron deflection |
Bill Church wrote:
> Ralph,
>
> The plans don't list deflections for any of the control surfaces, but in the
UK, the LAA has documented the recommended travels, and shows typical aileron
deflection to be 15 Up and 20 Down (that translates to about 3" up and 3 1/2"
down.
> http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/engineering/TADs/047%20PIETENPOL%20AIRCAMPER.pdf
>
> Bill C.
If there is going to be any aileron differential at all, wouldn't a sane person
want more Up than Down?
--------
Bill Frank
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| Subject: | Re: considering a piet build |
Welcome to the group Paul. I live about 50 miles east of Pensacola,Fl. I extended
the wingspan on my 1 piece wing. It is 32' 6". The reason I did is my runway
is only 1300 feet long and hope to shorten the take off run some and maybe climb
a little bit better. I have not flown it yet but hope to have it ready in
a couple of months. As to the AN bolts and washers they are cheaper at Aircraft
Spruce than my local Lowes.
--------
Jerry Dotson
59 Daniel Johnson Rd
Baker, FL 32531
Started building NX510JD July, 2009
now covering and painting
21" wheels
Lycoming O-235 C2C
Jay Anderson CloudCars prop 76 X 44
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| Subject: | Re: For Our New Friends - Who Builds and Flies |
Add Dick Navratil and Bob Poore. Lots of good, relevant experience.
Greg Cardinal
----- Original Message -----
From: "kevinpurtee" <kevin.purtee@us.army.mil>
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 4:54 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: For Our New Friends - Who Builds and Flies
> <kevin.purtee@us.army.mil>
>
> I encourage our new members to pay particular attention to people on the
> list who have built their own airplanes and who fly them a lot. Please
> add names of active builder/flyers to the list so they know who I'm
> talking about. I did not include people I have not seen on the list.
>
> List members who built their planes and actively fly: Mike Cuy, Jack
> Phillips, Larry Williams, Don Emch, Shad & Gary Bell, Randy Bush, Ben
> Charvet, Greg Cardinal, Lowell Frank, Dan Helsper, Hans van der Voort, Tim
> Mickel, PF Beck, Kevin Purtee.
>
> Cuy, Phillips, Williams, Emch, the Bells, Bush and Purtee fly several
> hundred mile cross-country flights.
>
> Please feel free to add on. I know I didn't get everyone.
>
> --------
> Kevin "Axel" Purtee
> NX899KP
> Austin/San Marcos, TX
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370992#370992
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: considering a piet build |
Welcome Paul,
I am building with poplar also. I like working with it is got great
properties and is nice to work with. All my ribs are spruce and most everything
else is poplar with the exception of the landing gear, cabanes and wing
struts which are laminated ash and black walnut with metal embedded at strategic
locations.
welcome to the group , some really good people here many the best you'll
ever encounter and others of dubious distinction whom you'll meet in Brodhead
also.
Of all the advice you have received none of will amount to nothing if you
cant piick up a quote and deliver the next line with out hesitation from
the Great Waldo Pepper. I suggest you get a copy and learn it, its in
integral part of the vocabulary and John Hoffman will tell you in all honest that
all the problems in life can be solved by the phrases, and dialogue
contained. So if ya wanna really experience the build you got to learn the
language
Son........Son.......... I'd be obliged if you'd prop me son!
John
Safe in the morning and dangerous through out the day
Do not archive, maybe one day if and when we meet I'll fill ya in on the
rest!
Do not archive
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| Subject: | OT The other end of the performance envelope. 787 |
>From the Beech list. Thot y'all might like the other perspective:
>From a friend of my friend the retired AA Captain
Pete.
_____
Hi All,
I just completed the first pilot training class on the 787 at United
Airlines, an airplane which is destined to replace the 767 and live for many
years after I retire. Here's what I've learned in 787 training so far. By
the way, last night we passed our MV (maneuvers validation) check ride, with
emergency after emergency, and the FAA observing. Tonight was our LOE
(line-oriented evaluation), again with FAA - this time 2 FAA observers. It's
0200 and I just got back to the hotel and poured a well-earned glass of wine
to celebrate. I now have a type rating in the 787. Phew. I'm pretty
confident this will be the last one for me.
I've summarized some of the major differences and unique features of the 787
versus more traditional "old school" airplanes like the 777 (not kidding) -
from the pilot's viewpoint. Our "Differences" course takes 11 days to gain
an FAA type rating, which is a "common" type rating with the 777. The course
has been like drinking from a fire hose, but has finally come together. Some
of our pilots attended Boeing's 5-day differences course, and deemed it
unacceptable. The FAA approved the Boeing 5-day course, but our guys decided
it lacked too much information. FAA is observing our checkrides now, and
taking our course as well, to certify the training. We're just the guinea
pigs.
A computer nerd would describe the 787 as 17 computer servers packaged in a
kevlar frame. The central brains is the Common Core System (CCS). Two Common
Computing Resources (CCRs) coordinate the communications of all the computer
systems, isolating faults and covering failed systems with working systems.
When battery power is first applied to the airplane in the morning, it takes
about 50 seconds for the L CCR to boot up. After this, a few displays light
up and you can start the APU. If there is a major loss of cockpit displays,
this may require a CCR reboot, which would take about a minute. Here are a
few of the major features and differences from the 777.
Electrics - Though a smaller plane, the 787 has 4 times the electric
generating power of the 777 - 1.4 gigawatts. Generators produce 235 VAC for
the big power users. Other systems use the traditional 115 VAC and 28 VDC.
There are 17 scattered Remote Power Distribution Units which power about 900
loads throughout the plane. The big power distribution system is in the aft
belly, along with a Power Electronics Cooling System (PECS). This is a
liquid cooling system for the large motor power distribution system. There's
also an Integrated Cooling System (ICS), which provides refrigerated air for
the galley carts and cabin air, and a Miscellaneous Equipment Cooling System
for Inflight Entertainment Equipment.
If 3 of the 4 engine generators fail, the APU starts itself. The APU drives
two generators, and can be operated up to the airplane's max altitude of
43,000 feet. If you lose all 4 engine generators, the RAT (ram air turbine)
drops out (like a windmill), powering essential buses. (It also provides
hydraulic power to flight controls if needed).
If you lose all 4 engine generators and the two APU generators (a really bad
day), you are down to Standby Power. The RAT will drop out and provide
power, but even if it fails, you still have the autopilot and captain's
flight director and instruments, FMC, 2 IRSs, VHF radios, etc. If you're
down to batteries only, with no RAT, you'd better get it on the ground, as
battery time is limited. Brakes and antiskid are electric - 28V - so you
don't lose brakes or antiskid even when you're down to just standby power.
Normal flight controls are hydraulic with a couple exceptions. Engine driven
and electric hydraulic pumps operate at 5000 psi (versus normal 3000 psi) to
allow for smaller tubing sizes and actuators, thus saving weight. If you
lose all 3 hydraulic systems (another bad day), you still have two spoiler
panels on each wing which are electrically powered all the time, as is the
stabilizer trim. You can still fly the airplane (no flaps, though). If
you're having an even worse day and you lose all hydraulics and all
generators, flight control power is still coming from separate Permanent
Magnet Generators (PMGs) which produce power even if both engines quit and
are windmilling. If the PMGs fail, too, your flight controls will be powered
by the 28 V standby bus.
If you lose all 3 pitot/static systems or air data computers, the airplane
reverts to angle of attack speed (converts AOA to IAS), and this is
displayed on the normal PFDs (primary flight displays) airspeed indicator
tapes. GPS altitude is substituted for air data altitude and displayed on
the PFD altimeter tapes. Very convenient.
If you lose both Attitude and Heading Reference Units (AHRUs), it reverts to
the standby instrument built-in attitude & heading gyro, but displays this
on both pilot's PFDs for convenience.
If you lose both Inertial Reference Units, it will substitute GPS position,
and nothing is lost.
If someone turns one or both IRSs off in flight (I hate it when they do
that), you can realign them - as long as one of the GPSs is working!
There is no pneumatic system. The only engine bleed is used for that
engine's anti-ice. Wing anti-ice is electric. Each of two air conditioning
packs control two CACs, which are electric cabin air compressors. The four
CACs share two air inlets on the belly. Each pack controller controls two
CACs, but if a pack controller fails, the remaining pack controller takes
over control of all 4 CACs.
There are no circuit breakers in the cockpit. To check on them, or if you
get a message that one has opened (more likely), you select the CBIC
(circuit breaker indication and control) display on one of the MFDs (multi
function displays). There you can reset the virtual C/B if it is an
"electronic" circuit breaker. You can't reset a popped "thermal" circuit
breaker.
If you have an APU fire on the ground or inflight, the fire extinguishing
bottle is automatically discharged. If there is a cargo fire, the first two
of seven bottles will automatically discharge also.
There's a Nitrogen Generation System which provides automatic full-time
flammability protection by displacing fuel vapors in the fuel tanks with
nitrogen (Remember TWA 800?).
Like the 767 and 777, the 787 also has full CPDLC capability
(controller-to-pilot datalink communications). In addition, its full FANS
capability includes ADS-B in & out. The controller can uplink speed,
heading, and altitude changes to the airplane. These show up on a second
line right under the speed, heading and altitude displays on the mode
control panel. If you pilot wants to use them, he can press a XFR button
next to each window. The controller can even uplink a conditional clearance,
like - After passing point XYZ, climb to FL390. If you accept this, it will
do it automatically.
Fuel system - like the 777, the 787 has a fuel dump system which
automatically dumps down to your maximum landing weight, if that is what you
want. In addition, it has a Fuel Balance switch which automatically balances
your L & R main tanks for you. No more opening crossfeed valves and turning
off fuel pumps in flight. No more forgetting to turn them back on, either.
Flight Controls - An "Autodrag" function operates when the airplane is high
on approach and landing flaps have been selected. It extends the ailerons
and two most outboard spoilers, while maintaining airspeed, to assist in
glidepath capture from above, if you are high on the glideslope. The feature
removes itself below 500 feet.
Cruise flaps is an automated function when level at cruise. It symmetrically
moves the flaps, ailerons, flaperons, and spoilers based on weight, airspeed
and altitude to optimize cruise performance by varying the wing camber, thus
reducing drag.
Gust suppression - Vertical gust suppression enhances ride quality when in
vertical gusts and turbulence. It uses symmetric deflection of flaperons and
elevators to smooth the bumps. This should result in fewer whitecaps in
passengers' coffee and cocktails. Lateral gust suppression improves the ride
when on approach by making yaw commands in response to lateral gusts and
turbulence.
Instrument Approaches - The airplane is actually approved for autoland based
not only on ILS but on GLS approaches - GPS with Ground based augmentation
system, which corrects the GPS signals. GLS minimums are the same as CAT I
ILSs - 200' and 1/2 mile visibility. Our airline is not yet approved for GLS
autolandings yet, though we will be doing GLS approaches.
Special Cat I & II HUD approaches - These allow lower than normal minimums
when the Heads Up Devices are used at certain approved airports (HUDs). The
HUDs include runway centerline guidance which helps you stay on the
centerline on takeoff when visibility is greatly reduced. It uses either ILS
or GLS for this.
Cabin - Pressurization differential pressure maximum is 9.4 psid, so the
cabin altitude is only 6000 feet when at the max cruising altitude of 43,000
feet. There is a cockpit humidifier switch, and cabin air humidification is
fully automatic. Cabin windows are larger than other airplanes, and window
shading is electronic. The passenger can select 5 levels of shading, from
clear to black. The flight attendants can control the cabin lighting
temperature - mood lighting - to aid in dealing with changing time zones
(evening light after dinner, morning light to wake up, etc.).
Much of the cockpit seems like it was designed by Apple. The Control Display
Units (CDUs) are virtual, so you can move them from one MFD to another. In
fact, you can configure the displays in 48 different ways, I think, though
we have found a few favorites we will use to keep it simple. To move the
cursor from one MFD to another, you can either use a button, or you can
"flick" your finger across the trackpad (Cursor Control Device) to fling the
cursor from one screen to the next - much like an iPad.
I'm going home this morning, and will return for a 777 simulator ride before
I go back to work. They want to make sure we've still got the old-fashioned
legacy airplane in our brain before we fly the 777 again, even though it
shares a "common type rating". We won't get the first 787 until October, and
begin operations in November or December. At that time I'll return for at
least 4 days refresher training before beginning IOE - initial operating
experience in the airplane - with passengers.
What a ride. It may be "fuel efficient", but I'm glad someone else is paying
for the gas.
Bill
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: considering a piet build |
Hi Paul
I completely agree with Jack and I built my last Piet with a center swction
a foot wider than plans to accomidate larger fuel tanks, then I built the
wings to plans. I notice the difference and have flight tested this plane
to 1300 lbs.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 3:56 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: considering a piet build
> <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
>
> Paul,
>
> Bill Rewey was always talking about building a "Super Pietenpol" with a
> longer wing, to approximate the wing loading of a Cub. I don't know if
> any
> have ever been built. Mine has a 6" longer than normal wingspan, but that
> was done to increase the volume in the centersection to give more fuel
> capacity. I will say that making such a change has dramatic ripple
> effects
> running through the entire airplane. The best flying Pietenpols seem to
> be
> the ones that were built closest to the plans.
>
> As Gary said - use aircraft hardware. It is not that much more expensive
> (maybe less than Grade 8 hardware), and the fine threads will be much more
> effective for getting accurate torques and for preventing loosening due to
> vibration. Besides, when you are getting bounced around by turbulence, it
> is reassuring to not have to wonder if your hardware is going to fail.
>
> Opinions on folding wings for a Piet? While that is always an attractive
> option for people thinking of building an airplane, I've never seen it
> done
> in practice. With a Pietenpol, I think it would be a pain due to having
> to
> tighten and safety wire the turnbuckles on the bracing wires between the
> struts every time you wanted to go flying. Also, many Pietenpols use
> simple
> bronze bushings on their axles, and while that is more than adequate for
> the
> amount of taxiing done at an airport, I wouldn't take any bets on how long
> a
> bushing would last being towed at highway speeds. Of course you could
> load
> it on a trailer, but that too is expensive. Weight is critical with these
> airplanes, and any wing folding mechanism is going to add weight that you
> can ill afford to add. As Walt evans used to say on this list "Simplicate
> and add Lightness". A wing folding mechanism does neither.
>
> There are severl Pietenpol builders/flyers in Florida. I'll leave it to
> them to contact you.
>
> As Gary said, there have been several Piets built of poplar. It is a good
> light wood. Not as light as spruce (Poplar is 16% heavier than sitka
> spruce), but somewhat stronger (Poplar's numbers generally run about 20%
> higher than spruce), so it has about the same strength to weight ratio.
> It
> works easily (nearly as easy as spruce, and much better than Douglas Fir,
> the other common choiceof non-aircraft grade woods). So all in all it is
> not a bad choice, particularly if you have a lot of experience in grading
> and selecting wood. Bear in mind that if you are choosing a wood other
> than
> aircraft grade spruce just to save money, the cost of the wood in a
> Pietenpol is something around 10% of the total price of the airplane,
> using
> aircraft spruce. You will spend so much more money on other things
> (primarily the engine) that the cost of wood is insignificant.
>
> Good luck with all your choices.
>
> Jack Phillips
> NX899JP
> Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nightmare
> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 4:03 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: considering a piet build
>
> <pauldonahuepilot@yahoo.com>
>
> Wow , you guys are great. thanks for all the quick responses. My name is
> Paul Donahue and i live in royal palm beach florida (5 miles west of west
> palm beach int'l). If you don't mind , here is a couple of more questions
> for you.
> 1.Has any one built a stretch wing Piet? (i know, stick to the plans)
> 2. Do builders use AN hardware or is the grade 8 nuts and bolts at the
> hardware store sufficient? (i believe it is same grade steel, usually
> courser threading though at hardware store)
> 3. I saw Keri Anns webpage, beautiful bird. any nonbias opinions on the
> removable wing option ? would love to have option of removing or even
> folding the wings to bring home.
> 4. are there any piet builders / owners near me?
> 5. how about opinions on building out of poplar?
>
> Thanks again; seems like a tight knit group
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370982#370982
>
>
>
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