---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 04/17/12: 48 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:50 AM - Re: Re: considering a piet build (Jack) 2. 04:23 AM - Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 46 Msgs - 04/16/12 (Sutton, Mark) 3. 06:20 AM - Re: Re: considering a piet build (airlion) 4. 06:21 AM - Re: considering a piet build (jarheadpilot82) 5. 06:28 AM - Re: Cost of inspections (ldmill) 6. 06:31 AM - 787 differences training (Lawrence Williams) 7. 06:45 AM - Re: 787 differences training (helspersew@aol.com) 8. 06:49 AM - Inspection rings (giacummo) 9. 07:06 AM - Re: Inspection rings (Doug Dever) 10. 08:01 AM - Re: Inspection rings (Mario Giacummo) 11. 09:26 AM - Re: Re: considering a piet build (Dick N) 12. 09:49 AM - Re: considering a piet build (nightmare) 13. 11:09 AM - Re: Inspection rings (helspersew@aol.com) 14. 11:16 AM - Re: 787 differences training (aerocarjake) 15. 11:20 AM - Re: considering a piet build (Catdesigns) 16. 11:24 AM - Re: 787 differences training (tools) 17. 11:24 AM - Re: Inspection rings (giacummo) 18. 11:32 AM - Re: Re: Inspection rings (John Hofmann) 19. 11:32 AM - Re: Re: 787 differences training (Gerry Holland) 20. 11:36 AM - Re: OT The other end of the performance envelope. 787 (tools) 21. 11:37 AM - Re: Re: 787 differences training (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 22. 11:40 AM - Re: considering a piet build (Jerry Dotson) 23. 11:49 AM - Re: Re: 787 differences training (John Hofmann) 24. 11:49 AM - Re: Inspection rings (giacummo) 25. 11:49 AM - Temperature Gauges W/O Electrical System (DaveG601XL) 26. 11:52 AM - Re: 787 differences training (Ryan Mueller) 27. 11:57 AM - Re: Temperature Gauges W/O Electrical System (Gerry Holland) 28. 12:04 PM - Re: Temperature Gauges W/O Electrical System (Dave Nielsen) 29. 12:18 PM - Re: Temperature Gauges W/O Electrical System (Gerry Holland) 30. 12:20 PM - Re: Temperature Gauges W/O Electrical System (tools) 31. 12:38 PM - Stitch question... (Jim Markle) 32. 12:44 PM - Thank you....: Need some help....off topic... (Jim Markle) 33. 01:34 PM - never mind.... Stitch question... (Jim Markle) 34. 02:13 PM - Re: Stitch question... (dgaldrich) 35. 02:57 PM - to post or not to post....that is the question (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP]) 36. 03:56 PM - Re: Temperature Gauges W/O Electrical System (Dave Nielsen) 37. 04:31 PM - Re: Re: 787 differences training (Doug Dever) 38. 04:56 PM - Re: Temperature Gauges W/O Electrical System (pineymb) 39. 05:09 PM - Re: Temperature Gauges W/O Electrical System (Ben Charvet) 40. 05:36 PM - spins (airlion) 41. 07:28 PM - Re: to post or not to post....that is the question (Kyle85) 42. 07:35 PM - Horizontal stab end pieces (Kyle85) 43. 07:47 PM - Re: Horizontal stab end pieces (gboothe5@comcast.net) 44. 07:47 PM - Re: Horizontal stab end pieces (Chris) 45. 08:12 PM - Re: Horizontal stab end pieces (kevinpurtee) 46. 08:52 PM - considering a piet build (Oscar Zuniga) 47. 09:19 PM - Re: Horizontal stab end pieces (dgaldrich) 48. 10:21 PM - Re: spins (dgaldrich) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:50:25 AM PST US From: "Jack" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: considering a piet build Welcome Paul, if you want to be included in our Piet listing, fill out the attached Excel sheet and return directly to me. I will then send you the current list of about 100 builders and flyers. Jack Textor DSM NX1929T do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nightmare Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 6:13 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: considering a piet build thank you for all the info. i'll search previous entries and order some books to verify this is the plane for me. thanks; Paul Donahue Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370998#370998 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:23:03 AM PST US From: "Sutton, Mark" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 46 Msgs - 04/16/12 Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone ----- Reply message ----- From: "Pietenpol-List Digest Server" Subject: Pietenpol-List Digest: 46 Msgs - 04/16/12 * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete Pietenpol-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the Pietenpol-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 12-04-16&Archive=Pietenpol Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 12-04-16&Archive=Pietenpol =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 04/16/12: 46 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:53 AM - Dangerous Dave's Piet (Douwe Blumberg) 2. 05:55 AM - Re: Re: Wing Tip Bows (skipgadd@earthlink.net) 3. 06:07 AM - Re: aileron deflection (899PM) 4. 06:13 AM - Re: Re: Wing Tip Bows (Michael Perez) 5. 06:28 AM - Re: another step forward (TOM STINEMETZE) 6. 06:47 AM - considering a piet build (nightmare) 7. 06:58 AM - Re: considering a piet build (Jack Phillips) 8. 07:37 AM - Wing Hinge Strap (Kringle) 9. 07:46 AM - Re: Wing Hinge Strap (kevinpurtee) 10. 07:48 AM - Re: Wing Tip Bows (K5YAC) 11. 07:53 AM - Re: Wing Hinge Strap (Jack Phillips) 12. 07:58 AM - Re: Wing Hinge Strap (K5YAC) 13. 08:14 AM - Re: Wing Hinge Strap (Michael Perez) 14. 08:20 AM - Re: considering a piet build (Michael Perez) 15. 08:44 AM - Re: Wing Hinge Strap (K5YAC) 16. 08:51 AM - Re: considering a piet build (John Hofmann) 17. 08:54 AM - Re: Wing Tip Bows (pineymb) 18. 09:46 AM - Re: Need some help....off topic... (C N Campbell) 19. 10:22 AM - Re: Dangerous Dave's Piet (Jerry Dotson) 20. 10:49 AM - Re: Wing Hinge Strap (Catdesigns) 21. 10:55 AM - Re: Need some help....off topic... (K5YAC) 22. 11:47 AM - Re: Wing Hinge Strap (K5YAC) 23. 11:50 AM - Re: Wing Tip Bows (Bill Church) 24. 11:51 AM - more pictures (Bob edson) 25. 12:06 PM - Re: Wing Hinge Strap (Kringle) 26. 12:19 PM - Re: Wing Hinge Strap (kevinpurtee) 27. 01:04 PM - Re: considering a piet build (nightmare) 28. 01:21 PM - Re: Re: considering a piet build (gboothe5@comcast.net) 29. 01:53 PM - Re: Re: considering a piet build (Ben Charvet) 30. 02:00 PM - Re: Re: considering a piet build (Jack Phillips) 31. 02:11 PM - Re: considering a piet build (kevinpurtee) 32. 02:21 PM - Re: considering a piet build (K5YAC) 33. 02:55 PM - For Our New Friends - Who Builds and Flies (kevinpurtee) 34. 03:30 PM - Re: For Our New Friends - Who Builds and Flies (Kringle) 35. 03:39 PM - Re: For Our New Friends - Who Builds and Flies (kevinpurtee) 36. 03:41 PM - Re: Cowling Bumps (curtdm(at)gmail.com) 37. 03:56 PM - Re: Cowling Bumps (kevinpurtee) 38. 04:13 PM - Re: considering a piet build (nightmare) 39. 04:22 PM - FW: Re: Cowling Bumps (Gary Boothe) 40. 04:57 PM - Re: Wing Hinge Strap (shad bell) 41. 05:17 PM - Re: aileron deflection (Mild Bill) 42. 05:35 PM - Re: considering a piet build (Jerry Dotson) 43. 05:41 PM - Re: For Our New Friends - Who Builds and Flies (Greg Cardinal) 44. 06:01 PM - Re: Re: considering a piet build (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 45. 07:52 PM - OT The other end of the performance envelope. 787 (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB) 46. 11:40 PM - Re: Re: considering a piet build (Dick N) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:56 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Dangerous Dave's Piet Someone asked about the status of Dangerous Dave's "quick-build" Piet. I emailed him a few months ago since we haven't heard much after the first flight, and he didn't say a lot. Sounds like it hasn't flown much, that he's been very busy and the plane has moved airports. I too got the impression that he was disappointed with it's performance, but I think it was a pretty high runway. That's about all I Know. Dave, if you're still following the list, we'd sure be interested in a flight report. Douwe ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:55:46 AM PST US From: "skipgadd@earthlink.net" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Tip Bows You are right Gary, had to look in the archives to recall what I said, Aug 8 2009. I agree with you, it is a good idea to measure corner to corner both ways frequently while assembling the wing, so the wing is as close as possible to square before you do the actual trammeling with turnbuckles. Skip > [Original Message] > From: Gary Boothe > To: > Date: 4/15/2012 1:47:41 PM > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Tip Bows > > > Additional thought, John...I think it was Skip Gadd who talked about > trammeling at least 3 times, during each phase of the construct. Seems like > it would be a mistake to trammel the first time after the leading and > trailing edges are on. > > Gary from Cool > NX308MB ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:55 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: aileron deflection From: "899PM" Using .040" thick piano hinges for my ailerons and dimpling for 10-32 flatheads(to set flush), I get 20.6 degrees of down travel before the hinge plates close tight on each other. -------- PAPA MIKE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370924#370924 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:01 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Tip Bows That's cool to see. My wing tips look a lot like this one. Michael Perez Pietenpol HINT Videos Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:28:12 AM PST US From: "TOM STINEMETZE" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: another step forward Beautiful Bob! Your panel looks great and your veneer job puts mine to shame. Also, I love that checkerboard pattern on the control stick knob. I can imagine how long it took to get that to come out right. Stinemetze do not archive >>> "Bob edson" 4/14/2012 4:13 PM >>> We started putting it back together today. Piet is on it's feet. Pictures not the best but you can see what it will look like. The wings are painted like the stabilizer. Thats my son in the picture. Bob ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:14 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: considering a piet build From: "nightmare" how does it fly ( climb, handle, stall , ground hanle) compared to a cub. previously owned a 1940 c85 cub. thinking of building one and teaching my two boys ( now 8 and 12 years) how to fly in it. also; love the wood struts, and gear, do builders just cover in spar varnish or fiberglass or just epoxy resin? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370934#370934 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:25 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: considering a piet build Nightmare? First, what is your real name and where do you live? We kind of like to know names so we can put them with faces when we meet at Brodhead. Second, a Pietenpol flies more like a Cub than anything else I've ever flown - that's why I built one. I used to own a 1946 J-3 with a Continental 65 and chose to build a Pietenpol because I couldn't afford to buy a Cub at today's prices. I will say having flown both types, the Cub style "Improved" Pietenpol gear is easier to land than the straight axle wire wheel variety. If I were building one with an eye towards teaching kids to fly in it, I would build the Cub-Style gear. As for the wood struts, I have laminated spruce landing gear struts on mine and simply coated them with 4 coats of epoxy varnish, and they've held up very well in nearly 8 years of flying. For wooden lift struts and cabane struts I expect epoxy varnish would do even better (the landing gear takes more abuse from tall grass, rocks, etc.). Good Luck! Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nightmare Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 9:47 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: considering a piet build how does it fly ( climb, handle, stall , ground hanle) compared to a cub. previously owned a 1940 c85 cub. thinking of building one and teaching my two boys ( now 8 and 12 years) how to fly in it. also; love the wood struts, and gear, do builders just cover in spar varnish or fiberglass or just epoxy resin? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370934#370934 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:09 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing Hinge Strap From: "Kringle" Since the center section wing straps go on the inside of the wing straps I am assuming the plywood on the wing must be cut out for clearance? Looks like I missed this on the plans :( John -------- John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370941#370941 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/ws1_700.jpg ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:46:39 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Hinge Strap From: "kevinpurtee" I built a one piece wing, John, so I don't know, but if you're assumption is right that's why you have a dremel tool. do not archive -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/San Marcos, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370944#370944 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:47 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Tip Bows From: "K5YAC" I'll be darn... the plans don't show it that way! The only braces I have are the ones shown in the plans (in red), but the plans also show a spruce wing tip bow, where I made mine from white pine. Perhaps I should look at adding the compression strut and additional braces that the 66 model have. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370945#370945 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/wing_braces_147.jpg ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:13 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wing Hinge Strap One of those little areas in the plans that simply can't be built as drawn. Vi Kapler put those in just to see if you were paying attention. The straps are .090" thick, or nearly the same as a piece of 3/32" plywood. You'll have to figure out how to arrange the doublers so the straps can overlap each other. I chose to just put the plywood doublers on the wing spars and omit them on the centersection spars, allowing the wing straps to just slip over the centersection straps as shown in the photo below: Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kringle Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 10:36 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing Hinge Strap Since the center section wing straps go on the inside of the wing straps I am assuming the plywood on the wing must be cut out for clearance? Looks like I missed this on the plans :( John -------- John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370941#370941 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/ws1_700.jpg ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:46 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Hinge Strap From: "K5YAC" You are right John, but it isn't really pointed out in the plans. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370946#370946 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:55 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing Hinge Strap If it is not too late John, you can add another piece of plywood under your CS straps to make room for the wing strap. Michael Perez Pietenpol HINT Videos Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:20:04 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: considering a piet build Nightmare, welcome. I can't answer any flying characteristic questions as my plane is still being built. However, on the wood...a varnish or some sort of wood protectant is needed. I use spar varnish on mine. Personally, I am fine with call signs. Michael Perez Pietenpol HINT Videos Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:58 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Hinge Strap From: "K5YAC" Or you can just remove your wing straps and Dremel/file/sand the material you need removed for clearance. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370950#370950 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:51:15 AM PST US From: John Hofmann Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: considering a piet build As an owner of both I have to concur with what Jack stated. The Piet is very similar to the Cub in lot of ways. A few observations below: The Piet is a bit faster. My Cub is slow and 502rocket is pretty quick. I cruise easily at 75-77 and my Cub cruises at about 72. The sight lines are similar. Backseat solo gives the same lack of visibility that at Cub gives, especially on the ground. It is easier to lean your head out of the Piet to see around. Major flight numbers are about the same for both. Climb and final speeds the same. The Piet does have a much worse glide ratio than a Cub. Just plan accordingly. Stall is sharper than a Cub. Nothing bad but it drops quickly and is easily picked up with proper technique. Te be fair I have vortex generators on the Cub so it does not really stall at all. It just kind of mushes and nods its head. The Cub is much easier to load/unload and is more capable of giving the fat guy a ride. It does have seven more feet of wing and is more tolerant of CG and gross weight issues. The Cub has brakes for both occupants, a must for instruction. I have not seen a Piet that had brakes in the front but I bet it has been done with weight penalties and seldom use. The Cub rides turbulence better. When in bumps in a Cub one seems to instinctively be able to predict the airplane's response. In the Pietenpol it is "wahoo" we are along for the ride. I just pull the shoulder strap a little tighter. My daughter loves it because "it is like being in a roller coaster." Cub has a door that closes and some semblance of cabin heat, however, nothing is quite like the feeling of open cockpit. That is about all I can think of for now. -john- John Hofmann Vice-President, Information Technology The Rees Group, Inc. 2424 American Lane Madison, WI 53704 Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 Fax: 608.443.2474 Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com On Apr 16, 2012, at 10:18 AM, Michael Perez wrote: > Nightmare, welcome. > > I can't answer any flying characteristic questions as my plane is still being built. However, on the wood...a varnish or some sort of wood protectant is needed. I use spar varnish on mine. > > Personally, I am fine with call signs. > > Michael Perez > Pietenpol HINT Videos > Karetaker Aero > www.karetakeraero.com > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:54:53 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Tip Bows From: "pineymb" Another wing tip bow example with a built up last rib and capping for additional strength. Not sure how much difference this makes when in compression but probably can't hurt. -------- Adrian M Winnipeg, MB Canada Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370951#370951 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00400_132.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00375_149.jpg ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:46:20 AM PST US From: "C N Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Need some help....off topic... Jim, I rebuilt a Piper PA22 a few years back and when I got ready to fly it, I took the spark plugs out and turned the engine over with the starter until the oil pressure built up. I then reinstalled the plugs, put fuel in the tanks, and started the engine normally. The engine ran fine until I sold it a couple of years later. A little MMO in the oil also helped a lot. It frees the rings and gives much better compression. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Markle" Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 7:13 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Need some help....off topic... > > > A pilot friend passed on about a year (or two) ago and his Champ has just > been sitting...his daughter owns it now....it's on a grass strip about a > mile from us. > > I've recommended to her that we at least pull it out of the hangar and > start it from time to time. And she's fine with me taking it up if I > want. (Of course I'm fine with that!). Mainly I hate to see it waste > away...and it will if we don't do something. > > So do we just start propping to get it started or is there some process we > need to follow for an aircraft that's been sitting for so long? > > Sorry for such an "off topic" request but....well....maybe this could lead > to me getting some tailwheel time (yes, I know, ONLY after getting some > tailwheel training...) but that might make me a better Piet pilot, right? > :-) > > If someone has experience with such and could tell me what to watch for > and give some pointers it would be appreciated. > > Offlist please. > > Thanks, > Jim in Pryor (where the storms might pass us by this time....) > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:22:54 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dangerous Dave's Piet From: "Jerry Dotson" The last time I heard from Dave was last September. He was flying his Piet a lot. He changed the prop and got happy with it. He said he got 70 knots at 2300 rpm. He also moved his gear forward. It flies hands off at that power setting after adding a rudder trim tab. do not archive -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 now covering and painting 21" wheels Lycoming O-235 C2C Jay Anderson CloudCars prop 76 X 44 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370964#370964 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:49:43 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Hinge Strap From: "Catdesigns" As it typical when building a Pietenpol, if you look closely, its on the plans. Take note of the wood grain on the drawings then you will notice there is 3/32-inch plywood under the straps on the wing side and a triangle piece of 3/32-inch ply that is below (below not under) the strap on the center section side. Center section side http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Chris%20Tracy/images/IMG_1978.JPG Wing Side http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Chris%20Tracy/images/Center_Fitting_Back_Side.JPG -------- Chris Sacramento, CA WestCoastPiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370967#370967 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:55:18 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Need some help....off topic... From: "K5YAC" Jim, I know the guy who did some of the maintenance and quite possibly the last annual on that airplane. Shot you a text. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370968#370968 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:47:13 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Hinge Strap From: "K5YAC" I think what John is talking about is the area in red. It looks pretty obvious, but isn't really called out as needing clearance. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370975#370975 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/wing_attach_171.jpg ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:50:19 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Tip Bows From: "Bill Church" When I read some of the replies, mentioning how the wingtip bow is actually a compression strut, I thought "that can't be right", since it is curved, and it sits out on the ends of the spars (fastened with brackets and screws). But then I took another look at the plans, and saw that it actually would act as a compression strut. Not really an ideal design , since all of the compressive forces are actually acting on the screws, rather than on the strut itself. While the 1966 BHP wing shown in Dan's photo does add a little bit of weight, it does seem to be a better design (in terms of providing a proper compression strut at the wing tip). When the time comes, I think I'll build mine like that (or similarly). Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370976#370976 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:51:39 AM PST US From: "Bob edson" Subject: Pietenpol-List: more pictures Update with tail on and wheels on. some more pictures, Bob ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:06:32 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Hinge Strap From: "Kringle" Mark is correct but with the right tool (laminate trimmer) the job was easy. Thanks to all for the help. I love this list! -------- John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370979#370979 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/strap4_532.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/strap3_130.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/strap2_658.jpg ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:19:32 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Hinge Strap From: "kevinpurtee" You 'da man, John! do not archive -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/San Marcos, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370980#370980 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:04:27 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: considering a piet build From: "nightmare" Wow , you guys are great. thanks for all the quick responses. My name is Paul Donahue and i live in royal palm beach florida (5 miles west of west palm beach int'l). If you don't mind , here is a couple of more questions for you. 1.Has any one built a stretch wing Piet? (i know, stick to the plans) 2. Do builders use AN hardware or is the grade 8 nuts and bolts at the hardware store sufficient? (i believe it is same grade steel, usually courser threading though at hardware store) 3. I saw Keri Anns webpage, beautiful bird. any nonbias opinions on the removable wing option ? would love to have option of removing or even folding the wings to bring home. 4. are there any piet builders / owners near me? 5. how about opinions on building out of poplar? Thanks again; seems like a tight knit group Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370982#370982 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:21:50 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: considering a piet build From: gboothe5@comcast.net Paul, I can only answer one of those: Mine is almost all Poplar (not yet flying); but when it does fly, it won't be the only Poplar Piet. Oh...stay away from that non-A/C hardware stuff! Welcome! Gary from Cool ------Original Message------ From: nightmare Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: considering a piet build Sent: Apr 16, 2012 1:02 PM Wow , you guys are great. thanks for all the quick responses. My name is Paul Donahue and i live in royal palm beach florida (5 miles west of west palm beach int'l). If you don't mind , here is a couple of more questions for you. 1.Has any one built a stretch wing Piet? (i know, stick to the plans) 2. Do builders use AN hardware or is the grade 8 nuts and bolts at the hardware store sufficient? (i believe it is same grade steel, usually courser threading though at hardware store) 3. I saw Keri Anns webpage, beautiful bird. any nonbias opinions on the removable wing option ? would love to have option of removing or even folding the wings to bring home. 4. are there any piet builders / owners near me? 5. how about opinions on building out of poplar? Thanks again; seems like a tight knit group Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370982#370982 Sent on the Sprint Now Network from my BlackBerry ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:53:35 PM PST US From: Ben Charvet Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: considering a piet build 1. I know of at least one "stretched wing" Piet that was up in the Jacksonville area (Pat Green's) 2. You can't easily buy Grade 8 bolts in 3/16 size, and judging by my trip to the hardware store yesterday, I'm not sure they dould be any cheaper. In Florida you can get anything from Aircraft Spruce out of Atlanta in 2 days. 4, I'm located in Titusville, just 150 miles north of you. 5. I built my Pietenpol out of Douglas Fir that I bought locally, and used Okoume plywood that I bought in Palm Beach County. This really is a good group and they were all a great help during my build. Ben Charvet Titusville, Fl NX866BC, 125 hrs so far On 4/16/2012 4:02 PM, nightmare wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "nightmare" > > Wow , you guys are great. thanks for all the quick responses. My name is Paul Donahue and i live in royal palm beach florida (5 miles west of west palm beach int'l). If you don't mind , here is a couple of more questions for you. > 1.Has any one built a stretch wing Piet? (i know, stick to the plans) > 2. Do builders use AN hardware or is the grade 8 nuts and bolts at the hardware store sufficient? (i believe it is same grade steel, usually courser threading though at hardware store) > 3. I saw Keri Anns webpage, beautiful bird. any nonbias opinions on the removable wing option ? would love to have option of removing or even folding the wings to bring home. > 4. are there any piet builders / owners near me? > 5. how about opinions on building out of poplar? > > Thanks again; seems like a tight knit group > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370982#370982 > > -- Ben Charvet, PharmD Staff Pharmacist Parrish Medical center ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:00:44 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: considering a piet build Paul, Bill Rewey was always talking about building a "Super Pietenpol" with a longer wing, to approximate the wing loading of a Cub. I don't know if any have ever been built. Mine has a 6" longer than normal wingspan, but that was done to increase the volume in the centersection to give more fuel capacity. I will say that making such a change has dramatic ripple effects running through the entire airplane. The best flying Pietenpols seem to be the ones that were built closest to the plans. As Gary said - use aircraft hardware. It is not that much more expensive (maybe less than Grade 8 hardware), and the fine threads will be much more effective for getting accurate torques and for preventing loosening due to vibration. Besides, when you are getting bounced around by turbulence, it is reassuring to not have to wonder if your hardware is going to fail. Opinions on folding wings for a Piet? While that is always an attractive option for people thinking of building an airplane, I've never seen it done in practice. With a Pietenpol, I think it would be a pain due to having to tighten and safety wire the turnbuckles on the bracing wires between the struts every time you wanted to go flying. Also, many Pietenpols use simple bronze bushings on their axles, and while that is more than adequate for the amount of taxiing done at an airport, I wouldn't take any bets on how long a bushing would last being towed at highway speeds. Of course you could load it on a trailer, but that too is expensive. Weight is critical with these airplanes, and any wing folding mechanism is going to add weight that you can ill afford to add. As Walt evans used to say on this list "Simplicate and add Lightness". A wing folding mechanism does neither. There are severl Pietenpol builders/flyers in Florida. I'll leave it to them to contact you. As Gary said, there have been several Piets built of poplar. It is a good light wood. Not as light as spruce (Poplar is 16% heavier than sitka spruce), but somewhat stronger (Poplar's numbers generally run about 20% higher than spruce), so it has about the same strength to weight ratio. It works easily (nearly as easy as spruce, and much better than Douglas Fir, the other common choiceof non-aircraft grade woods). So all in all it is not a bad choice, particularly if you have a lot of experience in grading and selecting wood. Bear in mind that if you are choosing a wood other than aircraft grade spruce just to save money, the cost of the wood in a Pietenpol is something around 10% of the total price of the airplane, using aircraft spruce. You will spend so much more money on other things (primarily the engine) that the cost of wood is insignificant. Good luck with all your choices. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nightmare Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 4:03 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: considering a piet build Wow , you guys are great. thanks for all the quick responses. My name is Paul Donahue and i live in royal palm beach florida (5 miles west of west palm beach int'l). If you don't mind , here is a couple of more questions for you. 1.Has any one built a stretch wing Piet? (i know, stick to the plans) 2. Do builders use AN hardware or is the grade 8 nuts and bolts at the hardware store sufficient? (i believe it is same grade steel, usually courser threading though at hardware store) 3. I saw Keri Anns webpage, beautiful bird. any nonbias opinions on the removable wing option ? would love to have option of removing or even folding the wings to bring home. 4. are there any piet builders / owners near me? 5. how about opinions on building out of poplar? Thanks again; seems like a tight knit group Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370982#370982 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:51 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: considering a piet build From: "kevinpurtee" Hi Paul - Welcome. This group is a family, and like all families you'll find some dysfunction. Spend some time here and you'll figure out whose advice you really want. There are a lot of smart, talented people in the group. I personally seek guidance from builders who have completed a plane and fly it a lot. There's something about "flight proven" that you just can't beat. You'll get a lot of advice from fellows who haven't finished their planes and who don't have their pilot's license. They're not necessarily wrong, but they're strictly theoretical. Your questions: 1) Jack Phillips built a stretch wing and says he regrets it. 2) AN Hardware. 3) If you need removable/folding wings you may want to consider another design. 4) There are builders in FL. 5) Gary Boothe has built an entire airplane from poplar. His workmanship is superb. I'm flying wooden wing struts Gary built for me. Anyway, it's up to you. Spruce is the standard, and the spruce from Aircraft Spruce & Specialty has been graded. In the grand scheme of things there's not that much price advantage. My comments: 1) Get familiar with searching the list archives. 2) Get the 4 Tony Bingelis books from EAA. EAA's wood and welding books are also good. Finally, the FAA AC 43-13...whatever is the bible. 3) Plan on attending Brodhead. Again, welcome. -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/San Marcos, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370988#370988 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:21:22 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: considering a piet build From: "K5YAC" Just wanted to say welcome, Paul! I'm still building, so can't offer a lot of practical advice. As Jack said, "Good luck with your choices"... there are plenty to consider. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage and Fuse framed up - Working on Landing Gear Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370989#370989 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:05 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: For Our New Friends - Who Builds and Flies From: "kevinpurtee" I encourage our new members to pay particular attention to people on the list who have built their own airplanes and who fly them a lot. Please add names of active builder/flyers to the list so they know who I'm talking about. I did not include people I have not seen on the list. List members who built their planes and actively fly: Mike Cuy, Jack Phillips, Larry Williams, Don Emch, Shad & Gary Bell, Randy Bush, Ben Charvet, Greg Cardinal, Lowell Frank, Dan Helsper, Hans van der Voort, Tim Mickel, PF Beck, Kevin Purtee. Cuy, Phillips, Williams, Emch, the Bells, Bush and Purtee fly several hundred mile cross-country flights. Please feel free to add on. I know I didn't get everyone. -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/San Marcos, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370992#370992 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:30:07 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: For Our New Friends - Who Builds and Flies From: "Kringle" Kevin, As a relatively new member, I am aware of these people and seek them out when I travel to Brodhead. Many on this list, including you, have met me but just don't remember it. Although I greatly appreciate everyones suggestions and comments, those builders and flyers you've named carry more weight when I make my decisions. Thanks to all for your help. John -------- John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370994#370994 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 03:39:37 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: For Our New Friends - Who Builds and Flies From: "kevinpurtee" Did I like you, John? :D Actually, every year I get better at recognizing members of our on-line Piet family. Lest I overstate my position: there are many people on this list who have not finished their projects but who I respect deeply as builders. I listen to them. The corollary is that some people who have finished and fly may not be the best source of information in some cases. But there's a special tenacity in a builder who flies his finished airplane 600+ miles to Brodhead that might be worth exploring. do not archive, and wear your name tag at Brodhead, and remind me who you are, and if I'm busy talking with another Piet person or flying then come find me in the cove later. -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/San Marcos, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370995#370995 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:15 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cowling Bumps From: "curtdm(at)gmail.com" I knew it resembled something......... Curt Merdan Flower Mound, TX Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370996#370996 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/12921012_198.jpg ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 03:56:01 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cowling Bumps From: "kevinpurtee" I think your stock just went way up, Curt. do not archive -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/San Marcos, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370997#370997 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 04:13:20 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: considering a piet build From: "nightmare" thank you for all the info. i'll search previous entries and order some books to verify this is the plane for me. thanks; Paul Donahue Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370998#370998 ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 04:22:14 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: FW: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cowling Bumps I tried my own for a pattern...but it was WAY too big... Gary Boothe NX308MB Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of curtdm(at)gmail.com Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 3:40 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cowling Bumps --> I knew it resembled something......... Curt Merdan Flower Mound, TX Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370996#370996 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/12921012_198.jpg ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 04:57:40 PM PST US From: shad bell Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wing Hinge Strap Another option (if not mentioned earlier) that many airplane designs do is use 1/4 inch plates (doublers)-on the c/s spars, and 1/8 inch plates on t he outboard wing spars.- this way the outboard -wing spar fittings fit inside the c/s spar fittings.- The plywood spar doublers act to prevent t he spars from splitting.- As you can see there are many ways to skin-th is cat. - Shad- - From: Jack Phillips Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wing Hinge Strap One of those little areas in the plans that simply can't be built as drawn. -Vi Kapler put those in just to see if you were paying attention. - The straps are .090" thick, or nearly the same as a piece of 3/32" plywood. - You'll have to figure out how to arrange the doublers so the straps can overlap each other.- I chose to just put the plywood doublers on the win g spars and omit them on the centersection spars, allowing the wing straps to just slip over the centersection straps as shown in the photo below: - - Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia - -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kringle Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 10:36 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing Hinge Strap - - Since the center section wing straps go on the inside of the wing straps I am assuming the plywood on the wing must be cut out for clearance?- Looks like I missed this on the plans- :( - John - -------- John - - - - Read this topic online here: - http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370941#370941 - - - - Attachments: - http://forums.matronics.com//files/ws1_700.jpg - - - - - - ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 05:17:06 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: aileron deflection From: "Mild Bill" Bill Church wrote: > Ralph, > > The plans don't list deflections for any of the control surfaces, but in the UK, the LAA has documented the recommended travels, and shows typical aileron deflection to be 15 Up and 20 Down (that translates to about 3" up and 3 1/2" down. > http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/engineering/TADs/047%20PIETENPOL%20AIRCAMPER.pdf > > Bill C. If there is going to be any aileron differential at all, wouldn't a sane person want more Up than Down? -------- Bill Frank Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371004#371004 ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:50 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: considering a piet build From: "Jerry Dotson" Welcome to the group Paul. I live about 50 miles east of Pensacola,Fl. I extended the wingspan on my 1 piece wing. It is 32' 6". The reason I did is my runway is only 1300 feet long and hope to shorten the take off run some and maybe climb a little bit better. I have not flown it yet but hope to have it ready in a couple of months. As to the AN bolts and washers they are cheaper at Aircraft Spruce than my local Lowes. -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 now covering and painting 21" wheels Lycoming O-235 C2C Jay Anderson CloudCars prop 76 X 44 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371005#371005 ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 05:41:18 PM PST US From: "Greg Cardinal" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: For Our New Friends - Who Builds and Flies Add Dick Navratil and Bob Poore. Lots of good, relevant experience. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: "kevinpurtee" Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 4:54 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: For Our New Friends - Who Builds and Flies > > > I encourage our new members to pay particular attention to people on the > list who have built their own airplanes and who fly them a lot. Please > add names of active builder/flyers to the list so they know who I'm > talking about. I did not include people I have not seen on the list. > > List members who built their planes and actively fly: Mike Cuy, Jack > Phillips, Larry Williams, Don Emch, Shad & Gary Bell, Randy Bush, Ben > Charvet, Greg Cardinal, Lowell Frank, Dan Helsper, Hans van der Voort, Tim > Mickel, PF Beck, Kevin Purtee. > > Cuy, Phillips, Williams, Emch, the Bells, Bush and Purtee fly several > hundred mile cross-country flights. > > Please feel free to add on. I know I didn't get everyone. > > -------- > Kevin "Axel" Purtee > NX899KP > Austin/San Marcos, TX > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370992#370992 > > ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:23 PM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: considering a piet build Welcome Paul, I am building with poplar also. I like working with it is got great properties and is nice to work with. All my ribs are spruce and most everything else is poplar with the exception of the landing gear, cabanes and wing struts which are laminated ash and black walnut with metal embedded at strategic locations. welcome to the group , some really good people here many the best you'll ever encounter and others of dubious distinction whom you'll meet in Brodhead also. Of all the advice you have received none of will amount to nothing if you cant piick up a quote and deliver the next line with out hesitation from the Great Waldo Pepper. I suggest you get a copy and learn it, its in integral part of the vocabulary and John Hoffman will tell you in all honest that all the problems in life can be solved by the phrases, and dialogue contained. So if ya wanna really experience the build you got to learn the language Son........Son.......... I'd be obliged if you'd prop me son! John Safe in the morning and dangerous through out the day Do not archive, maybe one day if and when we meet I'll fill ya in on the rest! Do not archive ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:53 PM PST US From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" Subject: Pietenpol-List: OT The other end of the performance envelope. 787 >From the Beech list. Thot y'all might like the other perspective: >From a friend of my friend the retired AA Captain Pete. _____ Hi All, I just completed the first pilot training class on the 787 at United Airlines, an airplane which is destined to replace the 767 and live for many years after I retire. Here's what I've learned in 787 training so far. By the way, last night we passed our MV (maneuvers validation) check ride, with emergency after emergency, and the FAA observing. Tonight was our LOE (line-oriented evaluation), again with FAA - this time 2 FAA observers. It's 0200 and I just got back to the hotel and poured a well-earned glass of wine to celebrate. I now have a type rating in the 787. Phew. I'm pretty confident this will be the last one for me. I've summarized some of the major differences and unique features of the 787 versus more traditional "old school" airplanes like the 777 (not kidding) - from the pilot's viewpoint. Our "Differences" course takes 11 days to gain an FAA type rating, which is a "common" type rating with the 777. The course has been like drinking from a fire hose, but has finally come together. Some of our pilots attended Boeing's 5-day differences course, and deemed it unacceptable. The FAA approved the Boeing 5-day course, but our guys decided it lacked too much information. FAA is observing our checkrides now, and taking our course as well, to certify the training. We're just the guinea pigs. A computer nerd would describe the 787 as 17 computer servers packaged in a kevlar frame. The central brains is the Common Core System (CCS). Two Common Computing Resources (CCRs) coordinate the communications of all the computer systems, isolating faults and covering failed systems with working systems. When battery power is first applied to the airplane in the morning, it takes about 50 seconds for the L CCR to boot up. After this, a few displays light up and you can start the APU. If there is a major loss of cockpit displays, this may require a CCR reboot, which would take about a minute. Here are a few of the major features and differences from the 777. Electrics - Though a smaller plane, the 787 has 4 times the electric generating power of the 777 - 1.4 gigawatts. Generators produce 235 VAC for the big power users. Other systems use the traditional 115 VAC and 28 VDC. There are 17 scattered Remote Power Distribution Units which power about 900 loads throughout the plane. The big power distribution system is in the aft belly, along with a Power Electronics Cooling System (PECS). This is a liquid cooling system for the large motor power distribution system. There's also an Integrated Cooling System (ICS), which provides refrigerated air for the galley carts and cabin air, and a Miscellaneous Equipment Cooling System for Inflight Entertainment Equipment. If 3 of the 4 engine generators fail, the APU starts itself. The APU drives two generators, and can be operated up to the airplane's max altitude of 43,000 feet. If you lose all 4 engine generators, the RAT (ram air turbine) drops out (like a windmill), powering essential buses. (It also provides hydraulic power to flight controls if needed). If you lose all 4 engine generators and the two APU generators (a really bad day), you are down to Standby Power. The RAT will drop out and provide power, but even if it fails, you still have the autopilot and captain's flight director and instruments, FMC, 2 IRSs, VHF radios, etc. If you're down to batteries only, with no RAT, you'd better get it on the ground, as battery time is limited. Brakes and antiskid are electric - 28V - so you don't lose brakes or antiskid even when you're down to just standby power. Normal flight controls are hydraulic with a couple exceptions. Engine driven and electric hydraulic pumps operate at 5000 psi (versus normal 3000 psi) to allow for smaller tubing sizes and actuators, thus saving weight. If you lose all 3 hydraulic systems (another bad day), you still have two spoiler panels on each wing which are electrically powered all the time, as is the stabilizer trim. You can still fly the airplane (no flaps, though). If you're having an even worse day and you lose all hydraulics and all generators, flight control power is still coming from separate Permanent Magnet Generators (PMGs) which produce power even if both engines quit and are windmilling. If the PMGs fail, too, your flight controls will be powered by the 28 V standby bus. If you lose all 3 pitot/static systems or air data computers, the airplane reverts to angle of attack speed (converts AOA to IAS), and this is displayed on the normal PFDs (primary flight displays) airspeed indicator tapes. GPS altitude is substituted for air data altitude and displayed on the PFD altimeter tapes. Very convenient. If you lose both Attitude and Heading Reference Units (AHRUs), it reverts to the standby instrument built-in attitude & heading gyro, but displays this on both pilot's PFDs for convenience. If you lose both Inertial Reference Units, it will substitute GPS position, and nothing is lost. If someone turns one or both IRSs off in flight (I hate it when they do that), you can realign them - as long as one of the GPSs is working! There is no pneumatic system. The only engine bleed is used for that engine's anti-ice. Wing anti-ice is electric. Each of two air conditioning packs control two CACs, which are electric cabin air compressors. The four CACs share two air inlets on the belly. Each pack controller controls two CACs, but if a pack controller fails, the remaining pack controller takes over control of all 4 CACs. There are no circuit breakers in the cockpit. To check on them, or if you get a message that one has opened (more likely), you select the CBIC (circuit breaker indication and control) display on one of the MFDs (multi function displays). There you can reset the virtual C/B if it is an "electronic" circuit breaker. You can't reset a popped "thermal" circuit breaker. If you have an APU fire on the ground or inflight, the fire extinguishing bottle is automatically discharged. If there is a cargo fire, the first two of seven bottles will automatically discharge also. There's a Nitrogen Generation System which provides automatic full-time flammability protection by displacing fuel vapors in the fuel tanks with nitrogen (Remember TWA 800?). Like the 767 and 777, the 787 also has full CPDLC capability (controller-to-pilot datalink communications). In addition, its full FANS capability includes ADS-B in & out. The controller can uplink speed, heading, and altitude changes to the airplane. These show up on a second line right under the speed, heading and altitude displays on the mode control panel. If you pilot wants to use them, he can press a XFR button next to each window. The controller can even uplink a conditional clearance, like - After passing point XYZ, climb to FL390. If you accept this, it will do it automatically. Fuel system - like the 777, the 787 has a fuel dump system which automatically dumps down to your maximum landing weight, if that is what you want. In addition, it has a Fuel Balance switch which automatically balances your L & R main tanks for you. No more opening crossfeed valves and turning off fuel pumps in flight. No more forgetting to turn them back on, either. Flight Controls - An "Autodrag" function operates when the airplane is high on approach and landing flaps have been selected. It extends the ailerons and two most outboard spoilers, while maintaining airspeed, to assist in glidepath capture from above, if you are high on the glideslope. The feature removes itself below 500 feet. Cruise flaps is an automated function when level at cruise. It symmetrically moves the flaps, ailerons, flaperons, and spoilers based on weight, airspeed and altitude to optimize cruise performance by varying the wing camber, thus reducing drag. Gust suppression - Vertical gust suppression enhances ride quality when in vertical gusts and turbulence. It uses symmetric deflection of flaperons and elevators to smooth the bumps. This should result in fewer whitecaps in passengers' coffee and cocktails. Lateral gust suppression improves the ride when on approach by making yaw commands in response to lateral gusts and turbulence. Instrument Approaches - The airplane is actually approved for autoland based not only on ILS but on GLS approaches - GPS with Ground based augmentation system, which corrects the GPS signals. GLS minimums are the same as CAT I ILSs - 200' and 1/2 mile visibility. Our airline is not yet approved for GLS autolandings yet, though we will be doing GLS approaches. Special Cat I & II HUD approaches - These allow lower than normal minimums when the Heads Up Devices are used at certain approved airports (HUDs). The HUDs include runway centerline guidance which helps you stay on the centerline on takeoff when visibility is greatly reduced. It uses either ILS or GLS for this. Cabin - Pressurization differential pressure maximum is 9.4 psid, so the cabin altitude is only 6000 feet when at the max cruising altitude of 43,000 feet. There is a cockpit humidifier switch, and cabin air humidification is fully automatic. Cabin windows are larger than other airplanes, and window shading is electronic. The passenger can select 5 levels of shading, from clear to black. The flight attendants can control the cabin lighting temperature - mood lighting - to aid in dealing with changing time zones (evening light after dinner, morning light to wake up, etc.). Much of the cockpit seems like it was designed by Apple. The Control Display Units (CDUs) are virtual, so you can move them from one MFD to another. In fact, you can configure the displays in 48 different ways, I think, though we have found a few favorites we will use to keep it simple. To move the cursor from one MFD to another, you can either use a button, or you can "flick" your finger across the trackpad (Cursor Control Device) to fling the cursor from one screen to the next - much like an iPad. I'm going home this morning, and will return for a 777 simulator ride before I go back to work. They want to make sure we've still got the old-fashioned legacy airplane in our brain before we fly the 777 again, even though it shares a "common type rating". We won't get the first 787 until October, and begin operations in November or December. At that time I'll return for at least 4 days refresher training before beginning IOE - initial operating experience in the airplane - with passengers. What a ride. It may be "fuel efficient", but I'm glad someone else is paying for the gas. Bill ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 11:40:58 PM PST US From: "Dick N" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: considering a piet build Hi Paul I completely agree with Jack and I built my last Piet with a center swction a foot wider than plans to accomidate larger fuel tanks, then I built the wings to plans. I notice the difference and have flight tested this plane to 1300 lbs. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Phillips" Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 3:56 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: considering a piet build > > > Paul, > > Bill Rewey was always talking about building a "Super Pietenpol" with a > longer wing, to approximate the wing loading of a Cub. I don't know if > any > have ever been built. Mine has a 6" longer than normal wingspan, but that > was done to increase the volume in the centersection to give more fuel > capacity. I will say that making such a change has dramatic ripple > effects > running through the entire airplane. The best flying Pietenpols seem to > be > the ones that were built closest to the plans. > > As Gary said - use aircraft hardware. It is not that much more expensive > (maybe less than Grade 8 hardware), and the fine threads will be much more > effective for getting accurate torques and for preventing loosening due to > vibration. Besides, when you are getting bounced around by turbulence, it > is reassuring to not have to wonder if your hardware is going to fail. > > Opinions on folding wings for a Piet? While that is always an attractive > option for people thinking of building an airplane, I've never seen it > done > in practice. With a Pietenpol, I think it would be a pain due to having > to > tighten and safety wire the turnbuckles on the bracing wires between the > struts every time you wanted to go flying. Also, many Pietenpols use > simple > bronze bushings on their axles, and while that is more than adequate for > the > amount of taxiing done at an airport, I wouldn't take any bets on how long > a > bushing would last being towed at highway speeds. Of course you could > load > it on a trailer, but that too is expensive. Weight is critical with these > airplanes, and any wing folding mechanism is going to add weight that you > can ill afford to add. As Walt evans used to say on this list "Simplicate > and add Lightness". A wing folding mechanism does neither. > > There are severl Pietenpol builders/flyers in Florida. I'll leave it to > them to contact you. > > As Gary said, there have been several Piets built of poplar. It is a good > light wood. Not as light as spruce (Poplar is 16% heavier than sitka > spruce), but somewhat stronger (Poplar's numbers generally run about 20% > higher than spruce), so it has about the same strength to weight ratio. > It > works easily (nearly as easy as spruce, and much better than Douglas Fir, > the other common choiceof non-aircraft grade woods). So all in all it is > not a bad choice, particularly if you have a lot of experience in grading > and selecting wood. Bear in mind that if you are choosing a wood other > than > aircraft grade spruce just to save money, the cost of the wood in a > Pietenpol is something around 10% of the total price of the airplane, > using > aircraft spruce. You will spend so much more money on other things > (primarily the engine) that the cost of wood is insignificant. > > Good luck with all your choices. > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nightmare > Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 4:03 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: considering a piet build > > > > Wow , you guys are great. thanks for all the quick responses. My name is > Paul Donahue and i live in royal palm beach florida (5 miles west of west > palm beach int'l). If you don't mind , here is a couple of more questions > for you. > 1.Has any one built a stretch wing Piet? (i know, stick to the plans) > 2. Do builders use AN hardware or is the grade 8 nuts and bolts at the > hardware store sufficient? (i believe it is same grade steel, usually > courser threading though at hardware store) > 3. I saw Keri Anns webpage, beautiful bird. any nonbias opinions on the > removable wing option ? would love to have option of removing or even > folding the wings to bring home. > 4. are there any piet builders / owners near me? > 5. how about opinions on building out of poplar? > > Thanks again; seems like a tight knit group > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370982#370982 > > Real people. Real needs. Real solutions Click here to view the United Way of Metropolitan Atlanta Community Report http://communityreport.unitedwayatlanta.org ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:06 AM PST US From: airlion Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: considering a piet build Jerry, my wife and I are driving down to Destin on the 27th and I would like to come up to see you sometime that weekend. What is your phone number.? Gardiner ----- Original Message ---- From: Jerry Dotson Sent: Mon, April 16, 2012 8:35:19 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: considering a piet build Welcome to the group Paul. I live about 50 miles east of Pensacola,Fl. I extended the wingspan on my 1 piece wing. It is 32' 6". The reason I did is my runway is only 1300 feet long and hope to shorten the take off run some and maybe climb a little bit better. I have not flown it yet but hope to have it ready in a couple of months. As to the AN bolts and washers they are cheaper at Aircraft Spruce than my local Lowes. -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 now covering and painting 21" wheels Lycoming O-235 C2C Jay Anderson CloudCars prop 76 X 44 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371005#371005 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:35 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: considering a piet build From: "jarheadpilot82" For Dick N.- " I notice the difference and have flight tested this plane to 1300 lbs." Could you be more specific. By that I mean, did you notice a good difference or a not-so-good difference? Since you have built two Piets, you might have a more real-world viewpoint about this subject. Thanks in advance for your response. -------- Do Not Archive Semper Fi, Terry Hand Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371035#371035 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:28:04 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cost of inspections From: "ldmill" Hi Malcom, I do all the maintenance myself on the one I bought. My A&P charges me $225 to do the annual condition inspection. He likes to supervise me pull the plugs and clean/rotate them (Cont A-75), checks timing on both mags, checks the oil screen, checks fuel screens, and then eyeballs everything really good. Before the inspection I pull all the cowling, observation pannels and the seat backs, lube all bearings and pulleys, pull the wheel pants and lube wheel bearings. Then just take my time going over every nut and bolt. My personal pre-inspection takes me about 3 or 4 hours. The A&P portion takes about 2 - 2.5 hours. This year he wants to pull my metal prop and just make sure all is okay. Lesson learned - you don't save money on annuals by building a plane like I thought you would. I just doesn't cost that much in comparison to the rest of the years expenses (mostly fuel). Lorin -------- Lorin Miller Waiex N81YX GN-1 N30PP Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371037#371037 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:31:53 AM PST US From: Lawrence Williams Subject: Pietenpol-List: 787 differences training Can't figure out why anyone would consider putting that post on the Pietenpol website. Many of us are flying Air Campers to escape such things and to get back to the simple and purely joyful era of true flying. I can attest that your lengthy quote was NOT from a pilot but from a "cockpit resource manager" and cluttering up the Piet site with things like that might be entertaining for some but how about just sending a link next time and don't forget to add the obligatory... DO NOT ARCHIVE at the end. Larry W. T.C. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:28 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 787 differences training From: helspersew@aol.com An appropriate and responsible response from our resident T.C. Good show!! ! Dan Helsper Puryear, TN do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence Williams Sent: Tue, Apr 17, 2012 8:32 am Subject: Pietenpol-List: 787 differences training Can't figure out why anyone would consider putting that post on the Pietenp ol website. Many of us are flying Air Campers to escape such things and to get back to the simple and purely joyful era of true flying. I can attest that your lengthy quote was NOT from a pilot but from a "cockp it resource manager" and cluttering up the Piet site with things like that might be entertaining for some but how about just sending a link next time and don't forget to add the obligatory... DO NOT ARCHIVE at the end. Larry W. T.C. -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:02 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Inspection rings From: "giacummo" Hello, I am not putting any ring by the moment, I just want to understand, or know better about the inspection rings. As I saw in lots of pictures and drawings there are 2 kinds of them, ones have an aluminium (I think Al) hatch to close them, and others have just a rounf piece of fabric over the a plastic ring. The procedure to inspect with the ones with the fabric cover ( I want to understand ) is: cut the fabric inside the hole, inpect, and put a nuew piece of fabric... isn't it? thank you -------- Mario Giacummo http://vgmk1.blogspot.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371041#371041 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:35 AM PST US From: Doug Dever Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Inspection rings Those rings hold the aluminum insp covers. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Inspection rings > From: mario.giacummo@gmail.com > Date: Tue=2C 17 Apr 2012 06:48:54 -0700 > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > m> > > Hello=2C > > I am not putting any ring by the moment=2C I just want to understand=2C o r know better about the inspection rings. > As I saw in lots of pictures and drawings there are 2 kinds of them=2C on es have an aluminium (I think Al) hatch to close them=2C and others have ju st a rounf piece of fabric over the a plastic ring. > The procedure to inspect with the ones with the fabric cover ( I want to understand ) is: cut the fabric inside the hole=2C inpect=2C and put a nuew piece of fabric... isn't it? > > thank you > > -------- > Mario Giacummo > http://vgmk1.blogspot.com > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371041#371041 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:27 AM PST US From: Mario Giacummo Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Inspection rings Understand. thanks Mario Giacummo ... .. .-.. .- .- ...- . -. - ..- .-. .- . ... .--. . .-.. .. --. .-. --- ... .- --..-- .--. .-. --- -... .- .-.. .- .-. ..- - .. -. .- --..-- . ... -- --- .-. - .- .-.. !!!!! 2012/4/17 Doug Dever > Those rings hold the aluminum insp covers. > > Doug Dever > In beautiful Stow Ohio > > > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Inspection rings > > From: mario.giacummo@gmail.com > > Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 06:48:54 -0700 > > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > > mario.giacummo@gmail.com> > > > > Hello, > > > > I am not putting any ring by the moment, I just want to understand, or > know better about the inspection rings. > > As I saw in lots of pictures and drawings there are 2 kinds of them, > ones have an aluminium (I think Al) hatch to close them, and others have > just a rounf piece of fabric over the a plastic ring. > > The procedure to inspect with the ones with the fabric cover ( I want to > understand ) is: cut the fabric inside the hole, inpect, and put a nuew > piece of fabric... isn't it? > > > > thank you > > > > -------- > > Mario Giacummo > > http://vgmk1.blogspot.com > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371041#371041 > > > >====================== > &g====== > > > > > > > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:26:07 AM PST US From: "Dick N" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: considering a piet build Terry As you approach the upper limit you will certainly feel a difference in the plane. The Pietenpol isnt a plane that is ever intended to carry a super load, I am not saying that nor will I ever try it. The differences I noticed were in takeoff run, the ability to climb and the basic attitude in level flight. All of those things went down as weght went up. I really think that 110 hp made a difference but the longer wing also made a difference. My whole perspective has changed a bit since my trip home from Brodhead last year where I had 2 near misses on disaster, too much for one trip. Dick N ----- Original Message ----- From: "jarheadpilot82" Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 8:21 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: considering a piet build > > > For Dick N.- > > " I notice the difference and have flight tested this plane > to 1300 lbs." > > Could you be more specific. By that I mean, did you notice a good > difference or a not-so-good difference? Since you have built two Piets, > you might have a more real-world viewpoint about this subject. > > Thanks in advance for your response. > > -------- > Do Not Archive > > Semper Fi, > > Terry Hand > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371035#371035 > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:31 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: considering a piet build From: "nightmare" " I really think that 110 hp made a difference but the longer wing also made a difference. " --- when you say " made a difference" , i assume in a good way, right? also , is there much of a weight difference between a corvair 100 hp and a c-65 , c-85. thanks; Paul Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371064#371064 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:22 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Inspection rings From: helspersew@aol.com Mario, The plastic rings are initially captured in the covering process. These the n remain in that state until the first inspection, at which time they are c ut inside the ring and then covered with the aluminum cap. I think that is what your question is. Dan Helsper Puryear, TN -----Original Message----- From: giacummo Sent: Tue, Apr 17, 2012 8:49 am Subject: Pietenpol-List: Inspection rings Hello, I am not putting any ring by the moment, I just want to understand, or know etter about the inspection rings. s I saw in lots of pictures and drawings there are 2 kinds of them, ones ha ve n aluminium (I think Al) hatch to close them, and others have just a rounf iece of fabric over the a plastic ring. he procedure to inspect with the ones with the fabric cover ( I want to nderstand ) is: cut the fabric inside the hole, inpect, and put a nuew piec e of abric... isn't it? thank you -------- ario Giacummo ttp://vgmk1.blogspot.com ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371041#371041 -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:16:15 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: 787 differences training From: "aerocarjake" I have been working on the 787 since it was a product development study in 1994 and I STILL would not post a story like that on the Pietenpol site. This site is an escape from that complex world...! Sometimes I tell people that during the day I work at the "world's largest airplane factory" and at night I work at "the world's smallest airplane factory" - my one car condo garage. Don't get me wrong, I love my job, yet find the Pietenpol to be extremely personally gratifying... -------- Jake Schultz - curator, Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371071#371071 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:33 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: considering a piet build From: "Catdesigns" "My whole perspective has changed a bit since my trip home from Brodhead last year where I had 2 near misses on disaster, too much for one trip. Dick N" I was curious about this statement so with a little internet snooping found this. http://www.eaa25.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/eaa251108.pdf -------- Chris Sacramento, CA WestCoastPiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371072#371072 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:24:13 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: 787 differences training From: "tools" Right now, 47 views on the aviation related post, 35 views on the rant... I guess even some Piet folks find it interesting. Why not just prohibit off topic posting? Tools, wondering if that would make this post illegal as well... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371073#371073 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:24:59 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Inspection rings From: "giacummo" Yes, that was what i try the understand... and now another one.... how is the aluminium cover attached to the ring?.. do not worry, something is going to come to my mind..... Thank you very much Dan. Regards. -------- Mario Giacummo http://vgmk1.blogspot.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371074#371074 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:07 AM PST US From: John Hofmann Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Inspection rings Mario, They are made to fit the inspection ring and are held by spring pressure. The round ones are a standard size. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/de-nonslipcovers.php -john- John Hofmann Vice-President, Information Technology The Rees Group, Inc. 2424 American Lane Madison, WI 53704 Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 Fax: 608.443.2474 Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com On Apr 17, 2012, at 1:24 PM, giacummo wrote: > > Yes, that was what i try the understand... and now another one.... how is the aluminium cover attached to the ring?.. do not worry, something is going to come to my mind..... > > Thank you very much Dan. > > Regards. > > -------- > Mario Giacummo > http://vgmk1.blogspot.com > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371074#371074 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:21 AM PST US From: Gerry Holland Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: 787 differences training It's a slippery slope! One mans 'off topic' is another mans 'on topic'. It was aviation related, it came from a Pilot originally. Just hit delete and move on..... Regards Gerry do not archive Be kind it's my 65th Birthday today! Damn....that's off topic. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:36:37 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: OT The other end of the performance envelope. 787 From: "tools" I did the type of checkride he mentions in an Airbus A330 on the SAME DAY I soloed a Pietenpol for the first time, which was also my first solo in a taildragger and the first time I soloed a light civil airplane since 1983... That definitely highlighted the differences. Probably not surprisingly, I found the Piet solo to be a lot more challenging. All the important decisions are left up to to your own lonesome self in the light civil arena. No load control to help make sure it's legal, no dispatch checking the weather, route, etc., no maintenance control and monster technical operations center to help you decide if the plane is ready or not. I even had to decide for myself if I was ready to fly it! No battery of instructors, check airmen and feds making that decision for me. Interesting reading. As incredible as it sounds (and is), that arena STILL doesn't have all the resources available to a Piet pilot and a well equipped iPad... Havn't been able to find the picture to save my soul, but my favorite Pietenpol pic of all times was a picture of a classic Piet next to a B2 bomber. The caption read something like: "next to the Piet I built my son, is the B2 my son built..." I guess he was an engineer on the project and they managed to set up the photo op when he delivered it to him. Again, both ends of the spectrum sitting right next to each other. Tools Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371078#371078 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:58 AM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: 787 differences training Interesting, I was pretty much told in so many words if I was tired of or had a problem with a certain thread to no look/ don't and or don't read them as many other people found them interesting and educational. I am assuming that same advice holds true for all of us/ those that find themselves faced with much of similar situations. Especially as some readers may find the topic interesting and worthy of reading since it is aviation related and at the far end of the flight spectrum from the Piet, Cub, Champ, T craft and several other hundred aircraft. Are we moving from beating the dead horse to beating the jockey also? Just an observation that may also be worthy of a prolonged and inane debate Do Not Archive John ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:40:49 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: considering a piet build From: "Jerry Dotson" Gardner 850-537-5380 do not archive -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 thru covering and painting, now in final assembly 21" wheels Lycoming O-235 C2C Jay Anderson CloudCars prop 76 X 44 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371080#371080 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:49:01 AM PST US From: John Hofmann Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: 787 differences training =46rom the "Book of Waldo" when encountering these trying situations: "Smile son! Never disconcert the masses." Thus endeth the lesson. Do Not Archive -john- John Hofmann Vice-President, Information Technology The Rees Group, Inc. 2424 American Lane Madison, WI 53704 Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 Fax: 608.443.2474 Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com On Apr 17, 2012, at 1:37 PM, AMsafetyC@aol.com wrote: > Interesting, I was pretty much told in so many words if I was tired of or had a problem with a certain thread to no look/ don't and or don't read them as many other people found them interesting and educational. I am assuming that same advice holds true for all of us/ those that find themselves faced with much of similar situations. Especially as some readers may find the topic interesting and worthy of reading since it is aviation related and at the far end of the flight spectrum from the Piet, Cub, Champ, T craft and several other hundred aircraft. > > Are we moving from beating the dead horse to beating the jockey also? Just an observation that may also be worthy of a prolonged and inane debate > > > Do Not Archive > > > John > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:49:04 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Inspection rings From: "giacummo" I thought they where different things..... thank you. -------- Mario Giacummo http://vgmk1.blogspot.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371081#371081 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:49:26 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Temperature Gauges W/O Electrical System From: "DaveG601XL" Guys, I am trying to figure out which temperature gauges (CHT & Oil) I can use that do not require electricity to operate since I am using an A-65F without an electrical system. I see a VDO CHT gauge advertised in Aircraft Spruce that says it does not need electricity unless you want the unit lighted. I do not see a similar note under any of the oil temp gauges. They all just say that they need 12VDC. The VDO web site did not help any since it seems to indicate that all their gauges need voltage to operate. Any recommendations on particular gauges or brands that have worked well? Thanks, -------- David Gallagher Zodiac 601 XL-B: flying, 200+ hours now Next project under construction: Aircamper Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371082#371082 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:58 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 787 differences training From: Ryan Mueller Googling the first line of the missive....this friend is also a friend of some guy named Dave @yellowbullet.com, and Marty @ambergriscaye.com......Ambergris Caye....Belize....the Fisherman.... A friend of my friend of random BS forwards! Ryan do not archive On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 8:44 AM, wrote: > An appropriate and responsible response from our resident T.C. Good > show!!! > > Dan Helsper > Puryear, TN > > do not archive > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lawrence Williams > To: Pietlist > Sent: Tue, Apr 17, 2012 8:32 am > Subject: Pietenpol-List: 787 differences training > > Can't figure out why anyone would consider putting that post on the > Pietenpol website. Many of us are flying Air Campers to escape such things > and to get back to the simple and purely joyful era of true flying. > > I can attest that your lengthy quote was NOT from a pilot but from a > "cockpit resource manager" and cluttering up the Piet site with things like > that might be entertaining for some but how about just sending a link next > time and don't forget to add the obligatory... > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > at the end. > > Larry W. > T.C. > > * > > " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > p://forums.matronics.com > blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > * > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:57:03 AM PST US From: Gerry Holland Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Temperature Gauges W/O Electrical System David I have a non electric A75-8. The Oil Temperature is some form of capillary to Oil Pressure mount at rear of engine. Works well. Gerry ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:25 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Temperature Gauges W/O Electrical System From: Dave Nielsen I have gauges from AS on my A-65. I think they are Mitchell. Look closely a t the AS cataloge. You will find a page or two of thier guages. But only tw o are for none electric Dave Dave Nielsen sentuchows@aol.com -----Original Message----- From: Gerry Holland Sent: Tue, Apr 17, 2012 2:57 pm Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Temperature Gauges W/O Electrical System m.co.uk> David have a non electric A75-8. The Oil Temperature is some form of capillary t o il Pressure mount at rear of engine. Works well. erry -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:18:23 PM PST US From: Gerry Holland Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Temperature Gauges W/O Electrical System David I think I have this Oil Pressure Gauge. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/oilpress3.php You need to ensure it comes with capillary tube and bulb to fit into rear of engine. Gerry ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 12:20:38 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Temperature Gauges W/O Electrical System From: "tools" I just faced this problem on the 1920'ish Standard J1 biplane I'm helping to restore in Oshkosh. It runs an old water cooled V8 without an electrical system, a Hisso I think. Anyway, was was installed during a 1970's restore was a old Stewart Warner oil temp gage that had that capillary tube arrangement. I see them in A/C Spruce. While it says oil temp, it will work and the temp range is about correct. However, years ago I found a company in Albuquerque NM called MoMa. They restore ALL SORTS of gages and know about everything about them. If you want them to fix a tach gage, they want the tach cable sent along so it can be properly fit, etc. Also, their prices were about half of everywhere else. So I called them up about this water temp gage. The owner of the company usually answers the phone, a very nice lady Ms. Lucas. I explained what we wanted and she found a perfect vintage Stewart Warner WATER temp gage and fit the length of capillary tube to it we needed for the J1. Did this in under a week. If you have ANY gage stuff you need done, they are clearly worth checking with. The weirder the problem (like fixing a neat old auto speedometer to make a airplane tach), the better they will sound. They'll even do custom silkscreening of the gage face if you want. Just google MoMa and Albuquerque and you'll find them. Tools Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371089#371089 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 12:38:07 PM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: Pietenpol-List: Stitch question... Would it be generally accepted as "ok" to go ahead and stitch around the diagonal in the attached? And leave the cord laying against the diagonal? This is one of the middle ribs on the horiz stab. And it doesn't move like a cable would. Shouldn't be any movement between the diagonal brace and the cord. So can I get by with just running the waxed cord around it and tightening up? There's just not much clearance in that area but I can just stich around the rib if needed.... (Hope this makes sense....) Jim in Pryor ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 12:44:13 PM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: Pietenpol-List: Thank you....: Need some help....off topic... Wow, I got a HUGE response (mostly offline, thank you!) from my request. Not sure if this is actually going to happen or not but I sure do appreciate all the great feedback. I am in a MUCH better position know how to proceed and some important things to watch out for. And all this time I was thinking I could just "prop it and go fly"!! (just kidding) I've tried to respond directly to all the offers of help but probably forgot someone....so THANK you all! Jim in Pryor.... -----Forwarded Message----- >From: Jim Markle >Sent: Apr 14, 2012 6:13 PM >To: Pietenpol List >Subject: Need some help....off topic... > >A pilot friend passed on about a year (or two) ago and his Champ has just been sitting...his daughter owns it now....it's on a grass strip about a mile from us. > >I've recommended to her that we at least pull it out of the hangar and start it from time to time. And she's fine with me taking it up if I want. (Of course I'm fine with that!). Mainly I hate to see it waste away...and it will if we don't do something. > >So do we just start propping to get it started or is there some process we need to follow for an aircraft that's been sitting for so long? > >Sorry for such an "off topic" request but....well....maybe this could lead to me getting some tailwheel time (yes, I know, ONLY after getting some tailwheel training...) but that might make me a better Piet pilot, right? :-) > >If someone has experience with such and could tell me what to watch for and give some pointers it would be appreciated. > >Offlist please. > >Thanks, >Jim in Pryor (where the storms might pass us by this time....) > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:20 PM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: Pietenpol-List: never mind.... Stitch question... Just answered my own question. Went out to the shop and bent/hammered/drilled a small curved needle. Worked just fine. And didn't have to lay the cord up against the diagonal brace...didn't want to do that anyway. (And yes, I know, the holes don't line up with the lines...those were the original lines and somehow they didn't line up with each other, I'm still not sure why. So I made a template and punched the holes from the template...all in line with each other.) Next time I'll think about it some more before firing off an email...(no, I probably won't). JM -----Original Message----- >From: Jim Markle >Sent: Apr 17, 2012 2:37 PM >To: Pietenpol List >Subject: Stitch question... > >Would it be generally accepted as "ok" to go ahead and stitch around the diagonal in the attached? And leave the cord laying against the diagonal? This is one of the middle ribs on the horiz stab. And it doesn't move like a cable would. Shouldn't be any movement between the diagonal brace and the cord. So can I get by with just running the waxed cord around it and tightening up? > >There's just not much clearance in that area but I can just stich around the rib if needed.... > >(Hope this makes sense....) > >Jim in Pryor > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 02:13:21 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stitch question... From: "dgaldrich" If memory serves, some haven't rib stitched the tail feathers at all (just glued down?) and flown without incident so rib stitching may be sort of a belt and suspenders deal for aircraft this slow. 43-13 1b does seem to mandate rib stitching on "control surfaces" so it's probably wise. The way I read 43-13, the spacing should be a maximum of 5 inches (twice slipstream spacing) so you should only need 4 stitches (first one 2 1/2 inches from leading edge, then 3 more stitches at 4 to 5 inch spacing, then 2 1/2 to trailing edge) per feather. I would think with the 5 inch max spacing, you could put the stitch on either side of the diagonal and problem solved. Having said all that, you should be able to do what you propose without a problem. The only issue is if you pull it real tight, you might elongate the hole in the fabric as the lacing tries to straighten itself but it wouldn't be much and the seam tape should cover any cosmetic issues. That or you'd have one lace that was a little diagonal over the cap strip. Hope this helps Dave do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371099#371099 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 02:57:53 PM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC AEROSPACE CORP]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: to post or not to post....that is the question FIRST off-WELCOME to the new folks on the list. I didn't read all the pos ts but sounds like the new folks are getting some outstanding advice about Pietenpols and what all the build options are. (endless pretty much) And let's not all get our panties in a bunch (even you Larry even though yo u're Top Curmudgeon:) but I do like when you get testy...you're so polished at it!) over little crap -who cares, this is a great list -let's keep it that way. We don't need to be telling each other what they can post or not. We're a dults, use your best judgment and be kind, not cutting or crass. If you feel like venting hi t the golf range or batting cages or find the nearest cat. Okay I like dogs, period. You can't trust cat s. We can keep this fun, classy and not get anyone's undies in a bunch. Okay, now where did I put that A-380 article I was going to post for Larry Willams? :)! Mike C. do not archive SMOKE ON! [cid:image003.jpg@01CD1CC3.834FD4E0] ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 03:56:58 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Temperature Gauges W/O Electrical System From: Dave Nielsen The Mitchell mechanical gauge is part # 10-02706 A.S. catalogue. Westach GH T part# is 2A1. part number for the sender is 712-5W AHHHH I think. Dave Dave Nielsen sentuchows@aol.com -----Original Message----- From: DaveG601XL Sent: Tue, Apr 17, 2012 2:49 pm Subject: Pietenpol-List: Temperature Gauges W/O Electrical System m> Guys, I am trying to figure out which temperature gauges (CHT & Oil) I can use th at do ot require electricity to operate since I am using an A-65F without an lectrical system. I see a VDO CHT gauge advertised in Aircraft Spruce that ays it does not need electricity unless you want the unit lighted. I do no t ee a similar note under any of the oil temp gauges. They all just say that hey need 12VDC. The VDO web site did not help any since it seems to indica te hat all their gauges need voltage to operate. Any recommendations on particular gauges or brands that have worked well? Thanks, -------- avid Gallagher odiac 601 XL-B: flying, 200+ hours now ext project under construction: Aircamper ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371082#371082 -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 04:31:13 PM PST US From: Doug Dever Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: 787 differences training I rather enjoyed the read. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: 787 differences training Interesting=2C I was pretty much told in so many words if I was tired of or had a problem with a certain thread to no look/ don't and or don't read th em as many other people found them interesting and educational. I am assum ing that same advice holds true for all of us/ those that find themselves f aced with much of similar situations. Especially as some readers may find t he topic interesting and worthy of reading since it is aviation related and at the far end of the flight spectrum from the Piet=2C Cub=2C Champ=2C T c raft and several other hundred aircraft. Are we moving from beating the dead horse to beating the jockey also? Just an observation that may also be worthy of a prolonged and inane debate Do Not Archive John ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 04:56:21 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Temperature Gauges W/O Electrical System From: "pineymb" Oil temp gauge as follows: Aircraft Spruce # 10-00954 http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/scottoiltemp.php -------- Adrian M Winnipeg, MB Canada Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371105#371105 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/oil_temp_sensor_145.jpg ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 05:09:19 PM PST US From: Ben Charvet Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Temperature Gauges W/O Electrical System My oil pressure and oil temperature gauges came from Advance Auto Parts. The capillary tube for the "water temp" gauge was long enough to reach, and it came with adapters that enabled me to screw it into the end of the Oil screen cover. The pressure gauge has a 1/8 metal tube with flare fittings. Both seem to work fine. They are a little smaller than standard aircraft instruments. Ben On 4/17/2012 2:49 PM, DaveG601XL wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DaveG601XL" > > Guys, > > I am trying to figure out which temperature gauges (CHT& Oil) I can use that do not require electricity to operate since I am using an A-65F without an electrical system. I see a VDO CHT gauge advertised in Aircraft Spruce that says it does not need electricity unless you want the unit lighted. I do not see a similar note under any of the oil temp gauges. They all just say that they need 12VDC. The VDO web site did not help any since it seems to indicate that all their gauges need voltage to operate. > > Any recommendations on particular gauges or brands that have worked well? > > Thanks, > > -------- > David Gallagher > Zodiac 601 XL-B: flying, 200+ hours now > Next project under construction: Aircamper > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371082#371082 > > -- Ben Charvet, PharmD Staff Pharmacist Parrish Medical center ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 05:36:52 PM PST US From: airlion Subject: Pietenpol-List: spins Off topic, but has anyone done spins in the pietenpol? Just in case I get caught in an overcast.. Who knows. I might go into rolls and loops. I haven't heard of any G limits for the bernie planes. Gardiner Mason ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 07:28:06 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: to post or not to post....that is the question From: "Kyle85" Thumbs up! That is all Kyle -------- Airspeed, altitude or brains: Two are always needed to successfully complete the flight. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371111#371111 ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:03 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Horizontal stab end pieces From: "Kyle85" Hey guys, I will try to keep this short. Trying to determine if the plans are telling me to put main beam or leading edge on the horizontal stab end pieces. I am probably over thinking this. Just wondering what others did. Thanks Kyle -------- Airspeed, altitude or brains: Two are always needed to successfully complete the flight. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371112#371112 ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:16 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Horizontal stab end pieces From: gboothe5@comcast.net Kyle, I used the leading edge dimensions on the ends, but downsized toward the trailing edge, for a smooth transition. Gary from Cool Happy building! ------Original Message------ From: Kyle85 Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Horizontal stab end pieces Sent: Apr 17, 2012 7:34 PM Hey guys, I will try to keep this short. Trying to determine if the plans are telling me to put main beam or leading edge on the horizontal stab end pieces. I am probably over thinking this. Just wondering what others did. Thanks Kyle -------- Airspeed, altitude or brains: Two are always needed to successfully complete the flight. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371112#371112 Sent on the Sprint Now Network from my BlackBerry ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:16 PM PST US From: "Chris" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Horizontal stab end pieces This is what I used http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Chris%20Tracy/images/Tail_Wood_Piece_Locatio n.jpg But what the heck do I know, my plane is not finished Chris Sacramento, Ca Westcoastpiet.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kyle85 Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 7:35 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Horizontal stab end pieces Hey guys, I will try to keep this short. Trying to determine if the plans are telling me to put main beam or leading edge on the horizontal stab end pieces. I am probably over thinking this. Just wondering what others did. Thanks Kyle -------- Airspeed, altitude or brains: Two are always needed to successfully complete the flight. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371112#371112 ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:25 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Horizontal stab end pieces From: "kevinpurtee" Do you have a pilot's license, Chris?;) do not archive -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/San Marcos, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371121#371121 ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:11 PM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: considering a piet build I don't really have much to add in the Cub-vs-Air Camper thread except to slightly modify what someone (Jack-?) said about the "glide". I consider this to be a plus for the Piet. I always found that my most tense moments flying the Cub (and Super Cub) were those last few seconds (felt like hours) waiting for the mains to touch, riding the float down the runway, endlessly. I know, I know- it's all about airspeed control and that meant I was carrying a little too much airspeed- but still, I like the fact that I can bring the Piet down on a straight-line final all the way to the numbers and then plunk it down with minimal float. It's a nice short field performer, in my book. I also agree that adding wingspan also adds weight... not a good thing for Piets. Closing comment: pay no attention to posts from one "Kevin Purtee", a questionable guy that we put up with here out of kindness. He says his family is dysfunctional, but he's referring to himself, not his better half or any of us. And he belittles those of us who did not build our own Piets, but who fly them anyway. I think of Scout (my Air Camper) as an adopted child, one that I love by choice. "Fat Bottom Girl", Kevin's airplane by birth and upbringing, has no choice but to live in a dysfunctional household. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" Flying Squirrel N2069Z "Rocket" Medford/Ashland, OR website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 09:19:09 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Horizontal stab end pieces From: "dgaldrich" The important thing is that the gussets make full glue surface contact with the adjacent pieces. Since the airfoil properties aren't critical, sandpaper can fix everything else. Sort of a variation of the old military axiom "file to fit, paint to match". Dave Aldrich do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371125#371125 ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 10:21:51 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: spins From: "dgaldrich" Seems like there was a thread about this some time ago and the consensus was don't unless you have a parachute. AC 90-89A has a test procedure if you want to try it. Originally, g limits were found by piling sandbags on the wing until it failed and calculating g limits limit from that. Convention was that permanent deformation occurred at 1.5 times the "normal" limit so if the wing failed at the equivalent loading of 6 g's, then the normal g limit would be 4. I don't think the good Mr Pietenpol, or anyone else for that matter, has sandbagged a wing so if you REALLY want to know, build two wings and get a LOT of sandbags. Dave Aldrich do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371128#371128 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.