---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 08/21/12: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:05 AM - Piete Lowell (Michael Perez) 2. 05:18 AM - Re: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010) (Gene Rambo) 3. 07:47 AM - Re: Slow speed rush to 1st flight (aerocarjake) 4. 07:50 AM - Re: Re: Blakesburg (Jack@textors.com) 5. 08:55 AM - Re: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010) (Jack Phillips) 6. 09:01 AM - Re: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010) (Gerry Holland) 7. 09:25 AM - Re: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010) (Mark Roberts) 8. 09:26 AM - Re: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010) (Scott Knowlton) 9. 10:30 PM - bunyips, bubbles and gravity.... (Oscar Zuniga) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:05:48 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piete Lowell Would you please contact me off list, sir. I have a couple questions for you. Thanks! Do Not Archive Michael Perez Pietenpol HINT Videos Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:45 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010) From: Gene Rambo Just about all of the airplanes up until the 30s used 1025 steel. Everything was overbuilt then as well. The Piet plans assume 1025 as well. 1025 is not quite as strong, but is also not as "brittle" and is easier to work and weld. I don't know what 1010 is, I could look it up, but I'm sure someone on here could chime in on that. I would not be afraid of 1025 or something similar. On Aug 20, 2012, at 9:51 PM, "Mark Roberts" wrote: > > I dropped of a sheet of 4130 x .032 to a friend of mine who owns a steel fabrication shop, and he asked if I could use another kind of steel than 4130. He asked because he said he had plentiful amounts of 1010 sheet steel in varying quantities, and he said if I wanted to compensate for the strength differences, he thought I could cut the rest out of stock he has on hand if I wanted. > > As metal is my weakness here (in experience level), I am wondering what you folks think about this, outside of my knee-jerk reaction to say "No" just because it's not sold at ACS or Wicks... > > My bird will have extra wing area, and yet weight is still important, but what other points might I need to consider if I looked at using another steel aside from 4130? Didn't the 1930's Piets use 1025 or something? > > Thanks for your perspectives. I searched the archives before posting to see if this had been asked and didn't see anything, but I might have missed it. > > Mark > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=381435#381435 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:10 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Slow speed rush to 1st flight From: "aerocarjake" Nice to see the FORD power..... (ok, it's just the pickup truck - ha!)...... The olive Piet looks fantastic..! -------- Jake Schultz - curator, Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=381457#381457 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:50:25 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Blakesburg From: "Jack@textors.com" Lorin, Dick and others, we are going to miss it again this year. As my dad ages we like to travel to the Lakes to visit. Will miss you guys! Do not archive Jack Textor Sent from my iPad On Aug 20, 2012, at 10:33 PM, "ldmill" wrote: > > Actually - I am on the list Dick - just sinking in massive hours trying to finish my other plane(Sonex/Waiex). Am sending in the paperwork to the FAA this week to schedule my inspection. > > Am seriously looking forward to Blakesburg as well!! Will be flying down either Wednesday after work or Thursday morning and staying through till Sunday. Weather permitting, of course. Otherwise will be driving. They always park my GN-1 down the hill by the airfields' Piet. For those of you camping there - be sure to bring metal spikes and a hammer to get your tent secured as well as your plane if you fly it in. It's been so dry that you may need a sledge. > > I think we need to have a serious group meeting at the Pilot's Pub and discuss the quality of the pictures... First round is on me. Friday night??? > > Rest of my time will be spent with "hound dog eyes" trying to get a ride in a Waco or a Monocoupe - (if any happen to show up) > > Dick - hope you get your radial piet there - we need somebody there with star power like yourself... > > Cheers - hope to see some of you there! > Lorin Miller > GN-1 N30PP > Waiex N81YX > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=381437#381437 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:55:17 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010) In steel, the AISI number is used to designate the alloying elements. The first two digits indicate the principal elements in addition to iron.Anything that starts with 10 is plain carbon steel, with no other alloying elements. 41 indicates chromium and molybdenum. The last two digits represent the percent of carbon in the steel. 1010 is plain carbon steel with 0.10% carbon. 1025 has 0.25% carbon. The more carbon, the higher the strength but the lower the formability and ductility. Thus, files and knives are made of 1095 steel - very hard and strong (and holds a good edge as a knife) but very brittle. Here is part of a table showing the properties: Typical Mechanical Properties of Common Carbon, Alloy, and Stainless Steels Brinell Yield Tensile Elongation hardness AISI no. Form strength, psi strength, psi in 2 in, % (BH) 1010 HR 30,000 47,000 30 91 1015 HR 45,000 61,000 39 126 1018 HR 40,000 69,000 38 143 1018 CD 70,000 82,000 20 163 1020 HR 40,000 69,000 38 143 1025 HR 45,000 67,000 36 143 4130 N 63,000 97,000 25 197 What these numbers mean is the following: Form is simply the way the steel is made and sold. HR means Hot Rolled. CD means Cold Drawn (work hardened). N means Normalized (heated red hot then slowly cooled). Yield strength is the stress level at which permanent deformation (permanent bending or stretching) will occur. Below that level if the stress is removed the part will return to its original shape This is the stress you want to stay below in order to not "bend" your airplane Tensile strength is the stress level at which the steel will break (also called ultimate strength). Way beyond bending, you've now broken it. Elongation is how much the steel will stretch when stressed (using a 2" length, how much longer will it get before breaking) Brinell Hardness is simply a measure of how hard the steel is. Looking at the table, 1010 has a yield strength of only 30,000 psi (less than 2024-T3 aluminum). 1025 has a yield strength of 45,000 psi (2024-T3 is 42,000), and 1018 has a yield strength of 70,000. 4130 has a yield strength of 63,000 but an ultimate strength of 97,000 ( and it is heat treatable to much higher levels - yield strength of 220,000 psi is possible with heat treating followed by a water quench) I think I'd stay away from 1010. 4130 gives a very good range of properties and is readily weldable (and available at Aircraft Spruce or Wicks). 1025 or 1018 are reasonable substitutes. Clear as mud? Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 8:18 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010) Just about all of the airplanes up until the 30s used 1025 steel. Everything was overbuilt then as well. The Piet plans assume 1025 as well. 1025 is not quite as strong, but is also not as "brittle" and is easier to work and weld. I don't know what 1010 is, I could look it up, but I'm sure someone on here could chime in on that. I would not be afraid of 1025 or something similar. On Aug 20, 2012, at 9:51 PM, "Mark Roberts" wrote: > > I dropped of a sheet of 4130 x .032 to a friend of mine who owns a steel fabrication shop, and he asked if I could use another kind of steel than 4130. He asked because he said he had plentiful amounts of 1010 sheet steel in varying quantities, and he said if I wanted to compensate for the strength differences, he thought I could cut the rest out of stock he has on hand if I wanted. > > As metal is my weakness here (in experience level), I am wondering what you folks think about this, outside of my knee-jerk reaction to say "No" just because it's not sold at ACS or Wicks... > > My bird will have extra wing area, and yet weight is still important, but what other points might I need to consider if I looked at using another steel aside from 4130? Didn't the 1930's Piets use 1025 or something? > > Thanks for your perspectives. I searched the archives before posting to see if this had been asked and didn't see anything, but I might have missed it. > > Mark > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=381435#381435 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:01:58 AM PST US From: Gerry Holland Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010) Jack Many thanks for a fine explanation! Brilliant.....The mud is clear. Regards Gerry ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:25:11 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010) From: "Mark Roberts" Wow Jack! Thanks for taking the time to write that great explanation. Sometimes, you can't find specific info like that without asking a question that you can't find the answer to in books, and that sure helped me figure out what to do. I think I will just stay the course with 4130 and order as planned. He was asking me the question out of a desire to help me save money, and make it more convenient if I could use stuff he already had on hand. Again, thank you! Good reference material for the future as well... Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=381466#381466 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:26:38 AM PST US From: "Scott Knowlton " Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010) Jack, Having completed my control system, wing attach brackets and cabane brackets from 4130 it is emails like yours that allow me to take comfort in my choice of metals regardless of a small additional expense. The technical engineer types on this list are what keep us simpler minded builders in check, in safety and comfortable with our choices. Thanks for the great, informative response. Scott Knowlton Ribs, Tailgroup, Centresection and fittings done in Burlington, ON -----Original Message----- From: Jack Phillips Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010) In steel, the AISI number is used to designate the alloying elements. The first two digits indicate the principal elements in addition to iron.Anything that starts with 10 is plain carbon steel, with no other alloying elements. 41 indicates chromium and molybdenum. The last two digits represent the percent of carbon in the steel. 1010 is plain carbon steel with 0.10% carbon. 1025 has 0.25% carbon. The more carbon, the higher the strength but the lower the formability and ductility. Thus, files and knives are made of 1095 steel - very hard and strong (and holds a good edge as a knife) but very brittle. Here is part of a table showing the properties: Typical Mechanical Properties of Common Carbon, Alloy, and Stainless Steels Brinell Yield Tensile Elongation hardness AISI no. Form strength, psi strength, psi in 2 in, % (BH) 1010 HR 30,000 47,000 30 91 1015 HR 45,000 61,000 39 126 1018 HR 40,000 69,000 38 143 1018 CD 70,000 82,000 20 163 1020 HR 40,000 69,000 38 143 1025 HR 45,000 67,000 36 143 4130 N 63,000 97,000 25 197 What these numbers mean is the following: Form is simply the way the steel is made and sold. HR means Hot Rolled. CD means Cold Drawn (work hardened). N means Normalized (heated red hot then slowly cooled). Yield strength is the stress level at which permanent deformation (permanent bending or stretching) will occur. Below that level if the stress is removed the part will return to its original shape This is the stress you want to stay below in order to not "bend" your airplane Tensile strength is the stress level at which the steel will break (also called ultimate strength). Way beyond bending, you've now broken it. Elongation is how much the steel will stretch when stressed (using a 2" length, how much longer will it get before breaking) Brinell Hardness is simply a measure of how hard the steel is. Looking at the table, 1010 has a yield strength of only 30,000 psi (less than 2024-T3 aluminum). 1025 has a yield strength of 45,000 psi (2024-T3 is 42,000), and 1018 has a yield strength of 70,000. 4130 has a yield strength of 63,000 but an ultimate strength of 97,000 ( and it is heat treatable to much higher levels - yield strength of 220,000 psi is possible with heat treating followed by a water quench) I think I'd stay away from 1010. 4130 gives a very good range of properties and is readily weldable (and available at Aircraft Spruce or Wicks). 1025 or 1018 are reasonable substitutes. Clear as mud? Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 8:18 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010) Just about all of the airplanes up until the 30s used 1025 steel. Everything was overbuilt then as well. The Piet plans assume 1025 as well. 1025 is not quite as strong, but is also not as "brittle" and is easier to work and weld. I don't know what 1010 is, I could look it up, but I'm sure someone on here could chime in on that. I would not be afraid of 1025 or something similar. On Aug 20, 2012, at 9:51 PM, "Mark Roberts" wrote: > > I dropped of a sheet of 4130 x .032 to a friend of mine who owns a steel fabrication shop, and he asked if I could use another kind of steel than 4130. He asked because he said he had plentiful amounts of 1010 sheet steel in varying quantities, and he said if I wanted to compensate for the strength differences, he thought I could cut the rest out of stock he has on hand if I wanted. > > As metal is my weakness here (in experience level), I am wondering what you folks think about this, outside of my knee-jerk reaction to say "No" just because it's not sold at ACS or Wicks... > > My bird will have extra wing area, and yet weight is still important, but what other points might I need to consider if I looked at using another steel aside from 4130? Didn't the 1930's Piets use 1025 or something? > > Thanks for your perspectives. I searched the archives before posting to see if this had been asked and didn't see anything, but I might have missed it. > > Mark > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=381435#381435 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:30:19 PM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: bunyips, bubbles and gravity.... As I remember my in-person discussion of the subject of leveling fuselages and setting wing incidence with Jim Markle=2C it had more to do with observ ing the level of Blue Star ale in our glasses as we sampled their brew (and Jim sampled their black bean and salsa nacho salad) than it had to do with determining the 0.5 degree dihedral variation all the way up to 1.5 degree s of dihedral (two pints down). Neither of us would have made great pilots at that point=2C but we sure did know how to set wing dihedral and we also knew what constituted a good pint of ale. I made it home safely=2C so did Jim=2C so did the all-aluminum alternative "Ed Fisher" Piet wing rib that I took down to Blue Star for the patrons to admire and for Jim to comment o n that evening. There is more to this discussion and it's all important=2C but at the momen t I can't remember what it is=2C so I guess it isn't all that important aft er all. What I do remember is that I discussed refueling J-3 Cubs today wi th a friend of mine here in Medford who flew his Cub from Oregon to the big Cub reunion at Oshkosh this year and met Ken Bickers of this list at a ref ueling stop somewhere in Indiana. The Air Camper was the common thread=2C and a nice thread it is. My friend Lyn Cate told me that he made 40+ fuel stops on the flight from Medford to Oshkosh and back=2C and that he logged more than 60 hours in his Cub making the trip. I envied him=2C and thought to myself that it isn't really that different flying a Cub than it is flyi ng an Air Camper=2C except that the Air Camper doesn't float after you flar e it right above the numbers =3Bo) Maybe one day I will make it to Brodhea d at the controls of the ever-stalwart Scout. do not archive Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" Flying Squirrel N2069Z "Rocket" Medford=2C OR website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.