---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 09/05/12: 25 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:00 AM - Re: a way to avoid routing spars (Doug Dever) 2. 05:24 AM - Piet parts to Brodhead (skipgadd@earthlink.net) 3. 06:44 AM - Re: a way to avoid routing spars (Jack Phillips) 4. 07:07 AM - Re: a way to avoid routing spars (Ken Bickers) 5. 07:57 AM - Re: a way to avoid routing spars (tools) 6. 08:32 AM - Article on Brodhead in current Atlantic Flyer (woodflier@aol.com) 7. 08:51 AM - Re: Piet parts to Brodhead (899PM) 8. 09:14 AM - filling up the spar web sections---with 1/4" thick mahogany or birch ply (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]) 9. 09:35 AM - Re: filling up the spar web sections---with 1/4" thick mahogany or birch ply (Jim Markle) 10. 09:36 AM - Re: Re: Piet parts to Brodhead (Jim Markle) 11. 11:14 AM - Re: Re: Piet parts to Brodhead (skipgadd@earthlink.net) 12. 11:20 AM - Re: Re: Piet parts to Brodhead (skipgadd@earthlink.net) 13. 12:40 PM - Re: Article on Brodhead in current Atlantic Flyer (aerocarjake) 14. 03:17 PM - Re: Looking for a steel tube piet (jarheadpilot82) 15. 05:08 PM - Re: Re: Looking for a steel tube piet (C N Campbell) 16. 05:33 PM - Re: a way to avoid routing spars (jarheadpilot82) 17. 06:42 PM - Re: a way to avoid routing spars (tools) 18. 06:52 PM - Re: a way to avoid routing spars (tools) 19. 06:58 PM - Stromberg NA-S3A1 (Gary Boothe) 20. 07:10 PM - Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1 (tools) 21. 07:18 PM - Re: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1 (Gary Boothe) 22. 09:19 PM - Re: Re: Looking for a steel tube piet (Greg Bacon) 23. 10:26 PM - what I would do differently, wing spars and other things (Oscar Zuniga) 24. 10:38 PM - Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1 (Gerry Holland) 25. 11:20 PM - Re: a way to avoid routing spars (Clif Dawson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:00:24 AM PST US From: Doug Dever Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: a way to avoid routing spars Mike,- Any idea how much weight savings over the solid 3/4 spars?=0A- =0A-=0ADoug Dever=0Ain beautiful Stow Ohio=0A-=0A=0A=0A________________ ________________=0AFrom: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC] " =0ATo: "pietenpol-list@matronics.com" =0ASent: Tuesday, September 4, 2012 2:16 PM=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: a way to avoid routing spars=0A=0ACurt--Many ways to make y our spars including routing but I chose to go a different 'route' if you'll excuse=0Athe pun. =0A=0AHere's what I did to fabricate my wing spars and t he sketch also shows how I would do it over again next time. =0A=0AMike C. =0A=0AGood to meet you and your daughter at Brodhead!!!!!! ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:06 AM PST US From: "skipgadd@earthlink.net" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet parts to Brodhead Anybody going to the MAAC fly-in this weekend? Dave Stephens sold his Piet to someone in the Brodhead area and it has been taken apart, we took off the wings yesterday. Dave and I will deliver the Piet parts to Brodhead Airport this weekend. Mike Weeden is to help the new owner build an aircraft with the parts. I think they are going to send the Corvair back to WW for the 5th bearing. Skip ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:44:27 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: a way to avoid routing spars Calculate it. Sitka Spruce has a density of 21.86 lbs/ft3. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Dever Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 8:00 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: a way to avoid routing spars Mike, Any idea how much weight savings over the solid 3/4 spars? Doug Dever in beautiful Stow Ohio From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2012 2:16 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: a way to avoid routing spars Curt--Many ways to make your spars including routing but I chose to go a different 'route' if you'll excuse the pun. Here's what I did to fabricate my wing spars and the sketch also shows how I would do it over again next time. Mike C. Good to meet you and your daughter at Brodhead!!!!!! ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:26 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: a way to avoid routing spars From: Ken Bickers ... ahh the archives. Here is what I posted back on 2/19/2011 under the subject line "Routed Spar Weight" >From time to time, the question of what spars to use arises. I thought it might be useful to share a bit of data on the amount of weight saved by using routed spars. For Christmas, my family ordered spar blanks from Aircraft Spruce for me -- proving yet again how lucky I am. After several weeks of anticipation, four beautiful Sitka Spruce planks arrived. Each was 1" x 5", 14' long. I deviated from the plans in two respects. One, I decided to take advantage of the extra length and opted to add 9" to each wing. So my outer wing panels, with the attached wing tip bows, will be 14' 0.5" long. This will produce a wing that is 30' 6" from wing tip to wing tip. Two, I also opted not to reduce the spar blanks to a 4.75" by 1" rectangle, but to bevel the top edge of each to match the interior space of the ribs. As a result, my front two spars are 4.75" tall on the forward face and 5" tall on the rear face. The rear two spars are 4.875" tall on the forward face and 4.75" on the aft face. The routed sections, however, ignore the extra material at the top of each spar. That is, were I to shave off the extra area, I would still have the flanges that are specified in the plans. Please keep these deviations in mind, because they will affect the specific weight savings that others might obtain. After much trepidation and construction of a set of simple jigs, I was ready to take my router to the spar blanks. To avoid sharp transitions, I used a bull nose router bit (i.e., shaped like a capital U) to make chamfered half circles at each end of the routed sections, as well as to chamfer the full straight edge that forms the upper and lower flanges. I then used a straight router bit to eat out the wood in the interior of the chamfered race track-like sections. I followed the plans in leaving the section where the strut fittings attach unrouted (18"), the 4.5" triangle-ish outboard section, and the 7" inboard section. I also left a section of about 5.5" unrouted where the jury strut fittings will attach. With that explanation, here are the data: Pre-routed Starboard Front Spar . . . 12 lbs 9.6 oz Routed Staboard Front Spar . . . 9 lbs 10.0 oz Pre-routed Port Front Spar . . . 12 lbs 13.8 oz Routed Port Front Spar . . . 9 lbs 13.6 oz Pre-routed Starboard Rear Spar . . . 12 lbs 5.4 oz. Routed Starboard Rear Spar . . . 9 lbs 6.6 oz. Pre-routed Port Rear Spar . . . 12 lbs 6.4 oz Routed Port Rear Spar . . . 9 lbs 7.4 oz For each spar, the routing saves almost exactly 3 lbs. The reduction is from approx 50 lbs of total spar weight to approx 38 lbs of total spar weight. As for the time involved, it took me about 2 hours per spar to do the routing, plus another 15 minutes or so for each one to vacuum up the mess. There was another 2 or 3 hours of sanding inivolved. I probably spent about the same total time, pondering, worrying, and jig building before I ever touched the router to the spar blanks. Cheers, Ken On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 7:43 AM, Jack Phillips wrote: > Calculate it. Sitka Spruce has a density of 21.86 lbs/ft3. > > > Jack Phillips > > NX899JP > > Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia > > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Dever > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 8:00 AM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: a way to avoid routing spars > > > Mike, Any idea how much weight savings over the solid 3/4 spars? > > > Doug Dever > > in beautiful Stow Ohio > > > From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" > > To: "pietenpol-list@matronics.com" > Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2012 2:16 PM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: a way to avoid routing spars > > > Curt--Many ways to make your spars including routing but I chose to go a > different 'route' if you'll excuse > the pun. > > Here's what I did to fabricate my wing spars and the sketch also shows how I > would do it over again next time. > > Mike C. > > Good to meet you and your daughter at Brodhead!!!!!! > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > > http://forums.matronics.com > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:57:27 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: a way to avoid routing spars From: "tools" Here's some considerations around spar construction that don't seem to have been addressed very much. First, wt savings 1" routed vs 3/4" solid. Calculating it out, going to be about a toss up. I suspect the 1" routed (I beam) is stronger than a 3/4" solid... by enough to be worthwhile.. no clue. Given how many champ wings are out there with 3/4 solid, I'd say probably not enough to matter. Here's some lesser known issues around wood purchasing. Frequently there is a premium on buying wood that isn't a "standard" size. What that means is that 4/4 (one inch thick before surfacing) is the most common thickness available. You should be able to yield a 3/4" solid spar out of that stock if you're buying rough (as in from McCormicks or somewhere). That's probably going to be the most economical all around and for not super well equipped wood shops. Many places sell 1/2" at the same price or MORE than 3/4, as they simply plane 4/4 stock down to half of what it was. Takes longer, more passes through the planer, so it cost more. If you can find some 5/4 (1 1/4" before surfacing), you can plane to 1" finished and rout, or more economical yet, resaw to 5/8 then plane to 1/2" (if you're careful and good at resawing). >From somewhere like aircraft spruce, 5/4 is probably prohibitive. From a lumber supplier, probably very little if any premium for 5/4 over 4/4, you'll just have less to select from and it'll be about 25 percent more expensive, because you're getting 25 percent more lumber. The price per board foot, is usually the same. A board foot is 144 cubic inches, 12x12x1. Mike's built up spars will definitely make the most out of the lumber you have, but you'll need a good cabinet shop full of tools to get the most out of it. If you have that, great! If not, factor in shop services. Quick question for Mike, what are you doing to build up the sections where fittings hook up? Using plywood, or spruce? The bottom line is that you're paying for spruce (or nice doug fir) by the cubic inch. The less of them you turn into sawdust, router or planer shavings, the cheaper. As we know from the weight savings posts (about a very consistent 12 lbs per spar set), you're turning about 25 percent of your spruce into dust. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382445#382445 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:32:51 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Article on Brodhead in current Atlantic Flyer From: woodflier@aol.com The Atlantic Flyer has a nice article on the July Brodhead Pietenpol Flyin. Dan Helsper's Yellow German and Dan Luke/Rob Bach's airplane got mentioned and there were some pics that brought back memories. Here's a link to the article online: http://www.aflyer.com/1209_c_antiqueattic.html Matt Paxton NX629ML ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:35 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet parts to Brodhead From: "899PM" Skip, I will be there all weekend. Do you need help with anything? Mike Cushway -------- PAPA MIKE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382448#382448 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:14:40 AM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: filling up the spar web sections---with 1/4" thick mahogany or birch ply Tools, I built up the areas where I had to attach wing fittings with 1/4" mahogany plywood on each side of the web area. I chamfered the ends of those filler plates on the advice o f an aeronautical engineer. I attached an example in the form of a sketch which should help to illustra te how I did this. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:35:28 AM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: filling up the spar web sections---with 1/4" thick mahogany or birch ply I like that design. Worked out really well (so far) for me. Also wonder if it might be good to add some curve to those filler pieces, as shown on in the attached? Maybe eliminate a stress riser at point A on the dwg? Where the filler ply meets the cap filler strip at 90 degrees? Personally, I don't think it's worth the effort but certainly worth thinking about. JM -----Original Message----- >From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" >Sent: Sep 5, 2012 11:14 AM >To: "pietenpol-list@matronics.com" >Subject: Pietenpol-List: filling up the spar web sections---with 1/4" thick mahogany or birch ply > >Tools, > >I built up the areas where I had to attach wing fittings with 1/4" mahogany plywood on each side of >the web area. I chamfered the ends of those filler plates on the advice of an aeronautical engineer. > >I attached an example in the form of a sketch which should help to illustrate how I did this. > >Mike C. > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:36:49 AM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet parts to Brodhead Dang, I'm stating to get that old familiar "we're going to Brodhead and you're not..." feeling...again. I hate that.... -----Original Message----- >From: 899PM >Sent: Sep 5, 2012 10:51 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet parts to Brodhead > > >Skip, > >I will be there all weekend. Do you need help with anything? > >Mike Cushway > >-------- >PAPA MIKE > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382448#382448 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:49 AM PST US From: "skipgadd@earthlink.net" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet parts to Brodhead Mike, Thanks for the offer. When you see the attached, pulling a trailer with wings, come on over. Though I belive Mike Weeden will have necessary help lined up. Skip > [Original Message] > From: 899PM > To: > Date: 9/5/2012 11:53:54 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet parts to Brodhead > > > Skip, > > I will be there all weekend. Do you need help with anything? > > Mike Cushway > > -------- > PAPA MIKE > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382448#382448 > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:06 AM PST US From: "skipgadd@earthlink.net" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet parts to Brodhead Jim, Know what you mean. When David said he was going to deliver his Piet to Brodhead, I thought gee I'll bet he could use some help. The MAAC fly-in is just icing on the cake. Skip > [Original Message] > From: Jim Markle > To: > Date: 9/5/2012 12:38:15 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet parts to Brodhead > > > Dang, I'm stating to get that old familiar "we're going to Brodhead and you're not..." feeling...again. > > I hate that.... ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:40:23 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Article on Brodhead in current Atlantic Flyer From: "aerocarjake" Nice...thx........planning to make it to Brodhead in 2013 (sans a/p - long ways to go on the project still...) Do not archive -------- Jake Schultz - curator, Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382458#382458 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:17:38 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Looking for a steel tube piet From: "jarheadpilot82" Greg, I happened to see this today on Barnstormers. Don't know anything about it, but I thought I would pass it along. Hope it helps. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382466#382466 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:35 PM PST US From: "C N Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Looking for a steel tube piet Looks like it's more Piper than Piet! Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "jarheadpilot82" Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 6:17 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Looking for a steel tube piet > > > Greg, > > I happened to see this today on Barnstormers. Don't know anything about > it, but I thought I would pass it along. Hope it helps. > > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry Hand > Athens, GA > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382466#382466 > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:33:34 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: a way to avoid routing spars From: "jarheadpilot82" So, Tools, are there savings to be gained (Both in your wallet as well as your aircraft's gross weight) in building up an I-beam type spar or is it about even with buying a solid spar and routing it. Or just leaving it alone and accepting an extra 12 pounds of weight and no extra work. Your thoughts? -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382471#382471 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:42:38 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: a way to avoid routing spars From: "tools" Time or money... The best for me is going to be culling through McCormick's for a nice 1 1/8" board that's in the 4/4 pile (which they have), then resaw and make 1/2" planks, and build up to an i-beam. I'll do like Mike's "next time" but make the parts added a bit wider, use spruce instead of plywood (to avoid cross grain construction) and then rout to give the requisite filets to avoid stress risers. The down side is it's an enormous amount of work and will require a ton of tools, which I'm lucky enough to have. Based on the wood I bought there for my tail feathers, my 4 spars will cost around $160 total. It's ABSOLUTELY not worth carrying around the extra 12 lbs no matter how you do it. Routing the spars is easy. If you don't want to rout, then use 3/4 solid. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382474#382474 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:52:12 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: a way to avoid routing spars From: "tools" Oh ya, the other part of the question. Just buying and routing is the easiest, but will require me buying 4 boards so will be about $320. Not having access to a bandsaw that resaws well, a planer, tablesaw, a bazillion clamps, a jointer and a place to build up a 30' long spar might make the solid and rout option cheaper at $320. Building up without resawing is kind of the worst of both worlds unless you can get 1/2" (surfaced, 3/4 rough, which is rare) by the bdft. Having access to planers and jointers allows the use of rough lumber. I'm not sure if you can buy certified aircraft spruce rough or not. Presurfaced and certified from AC Spruce is probably $20/bdft, where good spar grade (but not officially certified) sitka from McCormicks is about $8/bdft. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382475#382475 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:58:58 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Stromberg NA-S3A1 I'm sure there are several of you that fly, or have flown, with this carb. I am wondering if it is characteristic for it to stumble if the throttle is advanced too quickly. Gary Boothe NX308MB ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:10:18 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1 From: "tools" No accelerator pump. So, yes, it is. It goes lean. I mitigate it by advancing the throttle (on a go around or touch and go) with the carb heat still on (which richens the mixture), then after the power is up, pulling it off. Mine started popping on one flight. Thought I was just getting lazy and advancing much too quickly. Turns out, one of my primer lines broke, allowing a cylinder to lean out... So, hesitation seems normal and is mentioned by most who fly that carb, but backfiring is NOT. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382479#382479 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:18:33 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1 Thanks, Tools! Gary Boothe NX308MB -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tools Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 7:10 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1 No accelerator pump. So, yes, it is. It goes lean. I mitigate it by advancing the throttle (on a go around or touch and go) with the carb heat still on (which richens the mixture), then after the power is up, pulling it off. Mine started popping on one flight. Thought I was just getting lazy and advancing much too quickly. Turns out, one of my primer lines broke, allowing a cylinder to lean out... So, hesitation seems normal and is mentioned by most who fly that carb, but backfiring is NOT. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382479#382479 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:19:21 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Looking for a steel tube piet From: Greg Bacon Thanks Terry. I called the guy yesterday. It was damaged when a hangar collapsed on it. At any rate, it's a strange bird that needs a lot of work to get it back in the air. Greg do not archive On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 5:17 PM, jarheadpilot82 wrote: > jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com> > > Greg, > > I happened to see this today on Barnstormers. Don't know anything about > it, but I thought I would pass it along. Hope it helps. > > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry Hand > Athens, GA > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382466#382466 > > -- Greg Bacon ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:26:42 PM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: what I would do differently, wing spars and other things Jack=3B I hope that you can fly Scout sometime. You seem to have a good no se for figuring out the effects that minor differences seem to result in=2C and perhaps flying my airplane will give you some additional data points t o put in your mental spreadsheet. I can't say the same about Mike Cuy... I'm afraid that if he climbs into Sc out we'll have a rebirth of "Fat Bottom Girl" on our hands =3Bo) Just kidding=2C of course. Scout seems to be very forgiving of how much lo ad the mission calls for. (Ahem!!) do not archive Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41Cc Medford=2C OR ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:00 PM PST US From: Gerry Holland Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Stromberg NA-S3A1 Gary...Yes it stumbles. Occasionally it even stops after a landing run. I blocked a runway two weeks ago! Tools method of using 'Carb Hot Air' is one I haven't tried so that is worth knowing. Mine is also reported as 'popping' when descending over Strip throttled back with Carb Hot Air on. Other than that, it's a real old A75! Gerry ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:04 PM PST US From: "Clif Dawson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: a way to avoid routing spars Uh, Jack, I think you'll find that to be 31 lb at 12% moisture content. At least according to the US Forest Products Lab. The closest you're going to get to that is Western Red Cedar with a corresponding reduction in strength. Clif Calculate it. Sitka Spruce has a density of 21.86 lbs/ft3. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.