---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 09/07/12: 33 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:19 AM - Re: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1 (Jack) 2. 05:07 AM - Re: Re: Piet parts to Brodhead (Ryan Mueller) 3. 05:20 AM - Re: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1 (Andrew Eldredge) 4. 05:42 AM - Re: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1 (Ryan Mueller) 5. 07:20 AM - Re: Looking for a steel tube piet (g. doe) 6. 07:26 AM - Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1 (AircamperN11MS) 7. 07:58 AM - Re: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1 (Ryan Mueller) 8. 08:09 AM - Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1 (dgaldrich) 9. 08:24 AM - Re: Spar Routing (Don Emch) 10. 08:29 AM - Re: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1 (Ryan Mueller) 11. 08:40 AM - Re: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1 (Ryan Mueller) 12. 08:40 AM - Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1 (AircamperN11MS) 13. 09:13 AM - Piet album website (AircamperN11MS) 14. 09:38 AM - Re: Piet album website (Ryan Mueller) 15. 09:52 AM - Re: Re: Spar Routing (Ken Bickers) 16. 10:08 AM - Re: Spar Routing (Don Emch) 17. 10:19 AM - Re: Spar Routing (curtdm(at)gmail.com) 18. 10:25 AM - Re: Spar Routing (Don Emch) 19. 10:52 AM - Re: Spar Routing (curtdm(at)gmail.com) 20. 10:53 AM - Re: Re: Spar Routing (Ryan Mueller) 21. 11:53 AM - How would you position the control stick? (Jim Markle) 22. 11:55 AM - two niceset guys you'd ever want to meet (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]) 23. 12:21 PM - Re: How would you position the control stick? (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]) 24. 12:23 PM - Re: two niceset guys you'd ever want to meet (Ryan Mueller) 25. 12:51 PM - Re: How would you position the control stick? (Jim Markle) 26. 01:18 PM - Re: two niceset guys you'd ever want to meet (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]) 27. 01:33 PM - Re: two niceset guys you'd ever want to meet (Don Emch) 28. 01:38 PM - Re: Re: two niceset guys you'd ever want to meet (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]) 29. 01:49 PM - Re: two niceset guys you'd ever want to meet (Don Emch) 30. 03:02 PM - Re: How would you position the control stick? (tools) 31. 03:05 PM - Re: How would you position the control stick? (tools) 32. 03:51 PM - Re: two niceset guys you'd ever want to meet (Gary Boothe) 33. 04:10 PM - Re: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1 (Ben Charvet) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:19:40 AM PST US From: "Jack" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1 For those that need to safety their carb, the ad provides good pictures for example. Jack Textor DSM NX1929T do not archive _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ryan Mueller Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 12:11 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1 Strombergs are excellent carbs, simple tech that has been proven over many years on god knows how many different production/experimental aircraft and engines. As Dave mentioned, the dripping is a simple issue of where the float bowl vent port is relative to the level of fuel in the bowl when the carburetor is installed on a taildragger. This was addressed over 50 years ago by a Service Bulletin.....shops/people don't know about or don't perform the SB, and they still drip....from D&G Supply's page: "For Stromberg/NAS model carburetors utilized on "taildraggers", care must be taken to control the fuel level in the bowl to accommodate the slanted mounting of this unit on the engine to prevent overflow leakage. There is a modification to this carburetor per Service Bulletin #73 dated 6/58 that removes a potential leaking air bleed hole located low in the throat by plugging and re-drilling a new one further up". Simple resolution. I just happened to stumble upon the gentleman Dave mentioned in the Vintage Barn (Bob Kachergius), and sat in on his talk.....he definitely knows what he's talking about. He went through the carb top to bottom, with samples, cutaway carbs, etc, pointing out all the different little details of an overhaul that might get missed: SB 73, the warping from overtightening the screws, looking for evidence of corrosion from water at in the bottom of the float bowl, how the float needle seat hole many times was not drilled deep enough at the factory, so the seat is too proud and you can't properly set the float level unless you machine it properly, etc etc, and how he addresses them. His overhaul price was a little more than some other shops, but I'd be hard pressed to imagine you could find a more thorough overhaul. Steve Krog interviewed him for an article in the August 2011 VAA mag, and he's apparently written numerous articles in various type club publications (Cub Club, etc). Anywho, he's got an ad up on Barnstormers: http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_392052_STROMBERG+NA-S3++CARBURETORS.h tml Ryan ryan@rmueller.org On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 9:37 AM, tools wrote: Dick bought my carb at Sun-n-fun and just sent it out for a complete rebuild. And in it's defense, it NEVER stumbled on me (except for the broke primer line) except while adding power to taxi IMMEDIATELY after startup. However, I was warned (by quite a few people) that just firewalling it with no regard wasn't a good idea, and knowing it has no accelator pump, it made sense. I started the carb heat routine while I was troubleshooting the backfiring (lean condition) caused by the broke primer line, and it helped quite a bit, which lets me know it would help with a lean condition caused by quick acceleration and no accelerator pump. Also, it didn't make sense to waste time taking my hand off the throttle, moving to the carb heat (all while slowing down and wasting runway), then back to the throttle to go around. So it's a routine I use ALL the time. While a good carb, it is old... I'm going to go read the article you mention. I do have a question for you and Mike. Can you get your carbs to hesitate? If it's adjusted properly, will it hesitate at all? Under any normal condition? I guess the whole point is this. If SOME hesitation under an extremely quick advance of the throttle from a full idle is normal, then you can experience it knowing things are probably alright with your carb. As how these things go, I was warned of it and after I JUST became a little comfortable with it, I did advance the throttle more quickly (I would advance the throttle VERY slowly at first because I wasn't much used to a taildragger, rather than trying to overcome a difficulty with the carb) and found that hesitation so assumed it normal. As it turned out, it wasn't! A technique I use with jet engines is to never let the engine "go to sleep". Especially with pure jets (no fan) and older jets, the response time from a developed idle can be dangerously slow. If you jockey the engines just enough, you'll keep them in a position where you have good response, without adding any significant thrust that would compromise the approach. Same applies to a piet. I notice many light civil pilots basically fly a no power final approach (which guarantees making the field with an engine failure, not a bad idea). Now if you fly that approach at a close to touchdown speed, if you do get low and add power with hesitation, you're in bad shape. If you fly that approach at a higher speed, short of touchdown and glide into it, you have margin for error, enough time (speed) to get through a hesitation. I, on the other hand, with a huge lack of experience in light civil planes, and YEARS AND YEARS of "bad habits", fly a lower power on approach, which keeps my engine out of the region where it would hesitate with a quick advance anyway. As I mentioned, the whole point of the discussion (in my mind) is to help us understand what the limitations of our carbs are so that we can determine if something isn't right. It's quite possible it SHOULDN'T ever hesitate and my flying habits would mask that condition and I'd never know if my carb was adjusted right in that regime or not. Lastly, the old drip from these old carbs. I'm on the verge of buying a little Chief with an A65. The owner just had the carb totally overhauled (to the tune of $600) because it would drip. I was told that was silly, because they all drip... I'm of the opinion that no good carb should just drip. Something is wrong in there if it does. May not really matter because it won't drip while running, but still... Oh ya, one more thing. When I was buying n2rn it was being inspected. A cylinder had to be pulled for some work. After we put it together and ran it, it had a little pop on acceleration. Dick wasn't happy and we thought maybe leaking a little air somewhere and we went about tightening all the hose clamps on the intake system. Problem went away. None of them seemed loose. It does seem that this engine is quite sensitive to any leaks in the intake system. So don't confuse that problem with a POSSIBLE propensity for hesitating due to a lack of complexity. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382499#382499 ========== st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:07:10 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet parts to Brodhead From: Ryan Mueller If they didn't get this with the airplane, might be worth a couple of bucks just for the backstory on what they bought: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Building-Pietenpol-NX925GP-Air-Camper-Notes-Pictures-DVD-R-David-Stephens-/320977644291?pt=US_Nonfiction_Book&hash=item4abbc22b03 On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 1:19 PM, skipgadd@earthlink.net < skipgadd@earthlink.net> wrote: > skipgadd@earthlink.net> > > Jim, > Know what you mean. When David said he was going to deliver his Piet to > Brodhead, I thought gee I'll bet he could use some help. The MAAC fly-in is > just icing on the cake. > Skip > > > > [Original Message] > > From: Jim Markle > > To: > > Date: 9/5/2012 12:38:15 PM > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet parts to Brodhead > > > > > > > Dang, I'm stating to get that old familiar "we're going to Brodhead and > you're not..." feeling...again. > > > > I hate that.... > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:20:30 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1 From: Andrew Eldredge Since the mixture control in the Stromberg is vacuum operated, not to mention the venturi, I've decided that the speed of the pull is important when I am pulling in advance of a start. When pulling backward, is the process sensitive to blade speed? Andrew Eldredge Provo, UT On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 9:58 PM, tools wrote: > > Yep, classic a65 flood clearing procedure from what I've heard from a few > different sources. > > Mags - off > Throt - wide open > Blades - pull through BACKWARDS, about a dozen > > Throt - closed (EASY to screw this up, be VERY careful) > Carb heat - off > Mags - on > > Start as usual. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382569#382569 > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:42:55 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1 From: Ryan Mueller No, it is not. And a dozen blades is a bit excessive, unless you like the exercise. 4 or 5, and give her a go. Not entirely sure why it's so easy to screw up closing the throttle....if you have to be VERY careful about pulling something to the rear until it stops, maybe this whole airplane thing is not your recommended hobby.... Ryan On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 7:20 AM, Andrew Eldredge wrote: > Since the mixture control in the Stromberg is vacuum operated, not to > mention the venturi, I've decided that the speed of the pull is important > when I am pulling in advance of a start. When pulling backward, is the > process sensitive to blade speed? > > Andrew Eldredge > Provo, UT > > > On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 9:58 PM, tools wrote: > >> >> Yep, classic a65 flood clearing procedure from what I've heard from a few >> different sources. >> >> Mags - off >> Throt - wide open >> Blades - pull through BACKWARDS, about a dozen >> >> Throt - closed (EASY to screw this up, be VERY careful) >> Carb heat - off >> Mags - on >> >> Start as usual. >> >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382569#382569 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> ========== >> http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> le, List Admin. >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:21 AM PST US From: "g. doe" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Looking for a steel tube piet Greg, there is a flyer in Woodstock, GA for sale, it is on Barnstormers, it is at the grass field I fly out of, gary=0A=0A=0A=0A______________________ __________=0AFrom: Greg Bacon =0ATo: pietenpol-list@mat ronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, September 4, 2012 9:57 PM=0ASubject: Pietenpol -List: Looking for a steel tube piet=0A=0A=0AGents,=0AThere is a fellow in Australia that is looking to purchase a steel tube piet (flying - not a pro ject). -Please contact me if you know of anyone interested in selling one =============== ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:26:02 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1 From: "AircamperN11MS" Steve, I have quit using the method you have described when clearing my flooded Cont. A friend of mine who use to investigate AC accidents for Cont. powered aircraft showed me a better method and it works every time. I'm sure that you have noticed that when you clear it with your procedures that it will not always work every time. I'll describe the way I do it now. First make sure the planes tail is tied down for safety. With the Mags off and the throttle in the wide open position, Pull the prop through about 10 blades in the forward direction. This does a couple of things. It pushes the raw fuel out the exhaust rather than putting it back into the intake system (reducing the chance of a backfire into the carburetor and fire) and it also keeps the engine oil in the oil pump (preventing oil cavitation). After pulling it through, reduce the throttle to the idle or cracked position (whatever works best for you), Flip on the mags and it will start on the first pull. Works every time. The only scary part is pulling it through at WOT and hoping that the mag switches work. Keep mindful that Switches can fail and you could have an unintentional engine start when pulling it through. But we all know that we must be prepare for that anytime we touch a prop. I am one who shuts my engine down with the mag switches and I am fairly confident that my switches always work. Give it a try, I think it is a better alternative and better for the engine. -------- Scott Liefeld Flying N11MS since March 1972 Steel Tube C-85-12 Wire Wheels Brodhead in 1996 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382594#382594 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:38 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1 From: Ryan Mueller Funny how quirky each one can be....502Rocket takes 2 shots of prime and four blades, and starts every time. Turn the switch off, and it quits. Pretty simple On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 9:25 AM, AircamperN11MS wrote: > Scott.liefeld@lacity.org> > > Steve, > > I have quit using the method you have described when clearing my flooded > Cont. A friend of mine who use to investigate AC accidents for Cont. > powered aircraft showed me a better method and it works every time. I'm > sure that you have noticed that when you clear it with your procedures that > it will not always work every time. > > > I'll describe the way I do it now. First make sure the planes tail is > tied down for safety. With the Mags off and the throttle in the wide open > position, Pull the prop through about 10 blades in the forward direction. > This does a couple of things. It pushes the raw fuel out the exhaust > rather than putting it back into the intake system (reducing the chance of > a backfire into the carburetor and fire) and it also keeps the engine oil > in the oil pump (preventing oil cavitation). After pulling it through, > reduce the throttle to the idle or cracked position (whatever works best > for you), Flip on the mags and it will start on the first pull. Works > every time. The only scary part is pulling it through at WOT and hoping > that the mag switches work. Keep mindful that Switches can fail and you > could have an unintentional engine start when pulling it through. But we > all know that we must be prepare for that anytime we touch a prop. I am > one who shuts my engine down with the ! > mag switches and I am fairly confident that my switches always work. > > Give it a try, I think it is a better alternative and better for the > engine. > > -------- > Scott Liefeld > Flying N11MS since March 1972 > Steel Tube > C-85-12 > Wire Wheels > Brodhead in 1996 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382594#382594 > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:09:52 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1 From: "dgaldrich" I seem to recall a knowledgeable person (the guy on the Bower's list??) positing that flooding was caused by using the mags to shut the engine down. Because the engine is still sucking fuel, the plugs get fouled. He suggested shutting the engine down using a fuel shutoff valve close to the carb fuel supply and opening the throttle as it dies to get more air through. Also has the advantage of stopping any dripping due to float level issues. Something to think... Dave Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382596#382596 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:24:48 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spar Routing From: "Don Emch" Mr. Pietenpol did use 3/4" laminated spars at some point later on. I would think a 3/4" laminated spar would inherently be a little stronger than a 3/4" solid spar because of doing away with the possible voids in a solid spar. Often times I hear people mention that a 3/4" solid spar is as strong as a routed 1" spar. I don't believe this to be the case. The strength of the spar is in the top and bottom where it is in tension and compression. That is why so many of the older airplanes have routed spars... to get that larger cross-section at the top and bottom of the spar. As far as the cost goes the difference between a 3/4" thick spar and a 1" thick spar is peanuts compared to the entire project. Obviously 3/4" solid spars are fine because there are many Piets flying with them. The Cubs, Champs, etc. that have less than 1" thick spars are quite a bit taller than the Piet's 4 3/4", giving more strength. One thing to remember... when many of the manufacturers from this era went to a more powerful engine, they almost always increased the thickness of the spar...(Waco, American Eagle, Swallow, etc.) Keep in mind many of our Piets are flying around with at least 50% more power than the original plans call for. I know this topic has been beaten to death but I just thought I'd share my thoughts. :) Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382600#382600 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:29:08 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1 From: Ryan Mueller You're at idle when you turn off the mags, not bringing in much fuel for a few seconds, how would that contribute to flooding? How do plugs get fouled if they are not sparking for a few seconds? Sure, if you turn off the fuel and want to wait until the engine consumes the fuel in the bowl and dies, go ahead. Or just have SB 73 done to the carb, and don't worry about it. On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 10:09 AM, dgaldrich wrote: > dgaldrich@embarqmail.com> > > I seem to recall a knowledgeable person (the guy on the Bower's list??) > positing that flooding was caused by using the mags to shut the engine > down. Because the engine is still sucking fuel, the plugs get fouled. He > suggested shutting the engine down using a fuel shutoff valve close to the > carb fuel supply and opening the throttle as it dies to get more air > through. Also has the advantage of stopping any dripping due to float > level issues. Something to think... > > Dave > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382596#382596 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:14 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1 From: Ryan Mueller Just curious.....how is your Piet doing? Nice ship, hope she'll be back in the air soon.... On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 9:37 AM, tools wrote: > > I'm on the verge of buying a little Chief with an A65 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:14 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1 From: "AircamperN11MS" I don't have much problem with flooding anyway. My plane requires different priming procedures depending on which fuel I am running. 100LL takes a lot less priming than auto gas does. Due to the specific gravity of the fuels, I guess. I also shut my fuel off as I turn the corner for my hanger. I guess about 10 seconds before I shut the mags off. This just empties the fuel bowl a little before shut down. I have a steel needle and seat in the carb and have no trouble with dripping. -------- Scott Liefeld Flying N11MS since March 1972 Steel Tube C-85-12 Wire Wheels Brodhead in 1996 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382602#382602 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:41 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet album website From: "AircamperN11MS" This is interesting. This adds up to a lot of history. http://www.abpic.co.uk/search.php?q=Pietenpol%20AirCamper&u=type&sort=&page=0&limit=10 Enjoy -------- Scott Liefeld Flying N11MS since March 1972 Steel Tube C-85-12 Wire Wheels Brodhead in 1996 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382608#382608 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:16 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet album website From: Ryan Mueller Also, Chris Tracy's excellent site, a bit more accessible: http://www.westcoastpiet.com/ On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 11:13 AM, AircamperN11MS wrote: > Scott.liefeld@lacity.org> > > This is interesting. This adds up to a lot of history. > > > http://www.abpic.co.uk/search.php?q=Pietenpol%20AirCamper&u=type&sort=&page=0&limit=10 > > Enjoy > > -------- > Scott Liefeld > Flying N11MS since March 1972 > Steel Tube > C-85-12 > Wire Wheels > Brodhead in 1996 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382608#382608 > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:52:00 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spar Routing From: Ken Bickers Don, when I was trying to decide on what spar option to take, I used the formulas in the publications found on the WestCoastPiet site. Based on my calculations of 3/4" versus routed 1" spars using Sitka Spruce, I found that the 1" routed spar should be approximately 11% stronger than the 3/4" solid spar. Notice that I didn't try to calculate the strength of built up 3/4" spars. It also appeared that the weight would be essentially the same. The built up 3/4" spars would presumably be heavier, as they would have several glue joints that neither of the other two spar options would require. Cheers, Ken On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 9:24 AM, Don Emch wrote: > > Mr. Pietenpol did use 3/4" laminated spars at some point later on. I would think a 3/4" laminated spar would inherently be a little stronger than a 3/4" solid spar because of doing away with the possible voids in a solid spar. Often times I hear people mention that a 3/4" solid spar is as strong as a routed 1" spar. I don't believe this to be the case. The strength of the spar is in the top and bottom where it is in tension and compression. That is why so many of the older airplanes have routed spars... to get that larger cross-section at the top and bottom of the spar. As far as the cost goes the difference between a 3/4" thick spar and a 1" thick spar is peanuts compared to the entire project. Obviously 3/4" solid spars are fine because there are many Piets flying with them. The Cubs, Champs, etc. that have less than 1" thick spars are quite a bit taller than the Piet's 4 3/4", giving more strength. One thing to remember... when many of the manufacturers from this! > era went to a more powerful engine, they almost always increased the thickness of the spar...(Waco, American Eagle, Swallow, etc.) Keep in mind many of our Piets are flying around with at least 50% more power than the original plans call for. > > I know this topic has been beaten to death but I just thought I'd share my thoughts. :) > > Don Emch > NX899DE > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382600#382600 > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:51 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spar Routing From: "Don Emch" Ken, I would agree with you. Thanks for the input! Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382615#382615 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:19:32 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spar Routing From: "curtdm(at)gmail.com" I don't know how the amount of engine power relates to the thickness of a spar. I think the load the spar can carry is most important. The drag and anti-drag wires should be sufficient to stabilize the thinner board. My original question was how deep to route the 3/4" spar. If it is routed only 1/8" deep on both sides, you still have 1/2" remaining just like the original 1" spar. I have faith that the 3/4" routed spar will be plenty strong to carry the plane and two people and still be below it's operating load limit with plenty of margin before hitting it's ultimate load limit. I do believe a 3/4" laminated spar is stronger, built up like a glulam structural beam. -------- Curt Merdan Flower Mound, TX Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382617#382617 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:59 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spar Routing From: "Don Emch" Curt, I'm not arguing in any way. I'm just sharing my thoughts on it and what I have seen in building up different wings. The manufacturers had something in mind in the late 20's when they were going from the heavy, big 90hp OX5 to the more powerful radials because many of them increased the spar thickness. Just reporting on what I've seen. Carry on... Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382619#382619 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:52:05 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spar Routing From: "curtdm(at)gmail.com" Don't worry Don, I didn't think you were arguing. I'll never be on Oprah's book list because I always come across argumentative when I write. That's why I usually keep my mouth shut and my hands behind my back. [Wink] -------- Curt Merdan Flower Mound, TX Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382626#382626 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:40 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spar Routing From: Ryan Mueller I'm looking at a plan sheet, dated 01/10/75, designed by B.H. Pietenpol, drawn by Vi Kapler..... Center Section Spar = 3/4 spruce Wing Panel Spar = 3/4 spruce What non-existent problem is trying to be solved? On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 12:19 PM, curtdm(at)gmail.com wrote: > curtdm@gmail.com> > > I don't know how the amount of engine power relates to the thickness of a > spar. I think the load the spar can carry is most important. The drag and > anti-drag wires should be sufficient to stabilize the thinner board. > My original question was how deep to route the 3/4" spar. If it is routed > only 1/8" deep on both sides, you still have 1/2" remaining just like the > original 1" spar. I have faith that the 3/4" routed spar will be plenty > strong to carry the plane and two people and still be below it's operating > load limit with plenty of margin before hitting it's ultimate load limit. > I do believe a 3/4" laminated spar is stronger, built up like a glulam > structural beam. > > -------- > Curt Merdan > Flower Mound, TX > > Do Not Archive > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382617#382617 > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:53:35 AM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: Pietenpol-List: How would you position the control stick? Where would you recommend the control stick rest in neutral/cruising position? Tony B says it should move freely around a 10" square but I'm wondering if the center of that box should maybe be a bit in front of straight up and down. Or would you recommend I just sit in it and put the stick at a "neutral feeling" position for me? (That makes the most sense.) I've seen a couple that had bends in them that moved the actual grip forward a few inches. Mine is already built so I'm not adding an offset but would like to finish hooking up the control cables. But I figure now is a good time to sit in it and also consider the input of some of you with Air Camper flying experience. Sort of unrelated picture of recent cable completions attached. Thanks! Jim in Pryor ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:55:02 AM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: two niceset guys you'd ever want to meet Curt Merdan and Don Emch. Two of the most pleasant people I've ever had the pleasure of meeting at Brodhead. Shame you two don't get along. :) (line from Ann Nelson to Elaine and Te d Striker) [cid:image001.jpg@01CD8D08.B5562970] Mike C. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:21:40 PM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: How would you position the control stick? Or would you recommend I just sit in it and put the stick at a "neutral feeling" position for me? (That makes the most sense.) Jim--exactly. I would do just what you described above. No needs to bend the stick or move it forward or aft. Glad to hear of your excellent progress! And the 'circle' of movement for a Pietenpol stick is plenty big, even if you have big thighs (like us full figured girls) if you build the horns and control system to plans---what I'm saying is there is plenty of room for "throw" as-designed. The only time I use full throw is when taxiing in a strong crosswind or in full flare on landings. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:23:36 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: two niceset guys you'd ever want to meet From: Ryan Mueller Don't forgot Curt's daughter....well mannered and enthusiastic.....dunno where she gets it from. ;-) Ryan On Sep 7, 2012 1:59 PM, "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" wrote: > Curt Merdan and Don Emch. Two of the most pleasant people I've ever had > the pleasure of meeting**** > > at Brodhead. **** > > ** ** > > Shame you two don't get along. :) (line from Ann Nelson to Elaine and > Ted Striker) **** > > ** ** > > [image: Description: > http://www.wearysloth.com/Gallery/ActorsN/12726-355.jpg] > **** > > ** ** > > Mike C.**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:51:07 PM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: How would you position the control stick? Great, thanks! -----Original Message----- >From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" >Sent: Sep 7, 2012 2:21 PM >To: "pietenpol-list@matronics.com" >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: How would you position the control stick? > > >Or would you recommend I just sit in it and put the stick at a "neutral feeling" position for me? (That makes the most sense.) > > >Jim--exactly. I would do just what you described above. No needs to bend the stick or move it forward or aft. Glad to hear >of your excellent progress! > >And the 'circle' of movement for a Pietenpol stick is plenty big, even if you have big thighs (like us full figured girls) if you build >the horns and control system to plans---what I'm saying is there is plenty of room for "throw" as-designed. The only time I use >full throw is when taxiing in a strong crosswind or in full flare on landings. > >Mike C. > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:18:43 PM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: two niceset guys you'd ever want to meet The only person I know who is NICER than Don or Curt is Larry Williams:) Mike C. Too bad he's not on the list and out flying those powered deathtrap parachu tes somewhere over Maui to vent his frustrations over Snowflakes and GN-1 builders and non-purists. Poor guy worked himsel f up into an Bernie Ulcer. And as long as I've had too much coffee, has ANYONE ever seen a picture of Bernie (okay Bernard for those of you who take offense to me calling him Bernie) smiling? Maybe after building 26 airplanes I would n't be smiling much either. Think of all the wood slivers and near-death experiences? ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:33:10 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: two niceset guys you'd ever want to meet From: "Don Emch" Good point Mike! I think I saw a picture of him once where he was just starting to work up a smile. It's gotta have something to do with building that many airplanes. Someday when I grow up I want to be just like Larry Williams. He's about as classy and nice as they come! Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382640#382640 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:33 PM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: two niceset guys you'd ever want to meet Larry Williams really is a peach of a guy Don---he just likes to try to come across on the list as a grumpy old man. He doesn't do a very convincing job of it....too nice! Mike C. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:49 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: two niceset guys you'd ever want to meet From: "Don Emch" Larry likes to amuse himself and I think acting as the Top Curmudgeon is lots of fun to him! Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382643#382643 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:02:49 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: How would you position the control stick? From: "tools" I've been stop to stop a few times about tree top level into and out of fields (surrounded by trees) on gusty days, but see no reason that just centered is anything other than you'd want (side to side). I had to rerig the ailerons once and got the stick out of centered and it bothered me IMMEDIATELY, but was an easy fix. Otherwise, I'd sit in it and see where neutral feels good for you (fore and aft). Then trim the plane to where that's actually the case. Maybe a slight forward bent stick might be advantageous for some folks. You DEFINITELY want full aft available. I lost some with a experimental seat cushion... not good. Another easy fix. BETTER YET, go get a ride! Seriously. When I bought Dick N's NX2RN, I was ready to cancel the deal as soon as I sat in it. Thought there was NO WAY I could operate that rudder bar. Then he let me taxi it and that saved the deal. Was no problem, but that wasn't obvious by just sitting. If you're gonna cross country at all, a nice comfortable neutral is a good thing... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382644#382644 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 03:05:15 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: How would you position the control stick? From: "tools" I would say you need more up than down, if you need to move the stick forward a bit... Only use down of any significance to get the tailwheel off the ground. And doing that early never worked out well for me, meaning if you have enough speed, don't need that much throw. FWIW Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382646#382646 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:51:26 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: two niceset guys you'd ever want to meet Then, lucky me! I'm meeting Curt for breakfast tomorrow!! Gary Boothe NX308MB From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC] Sent: Friday, September 07, 2012 11:55 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: two niceset guys you'd ever want to meet Curt Merdan and Don Emch. Two of the most pleasant people I've ever had the pleasure of meeting at Brodhead. Shame you two don't get along. :) (line from Ann Nelson to Elaine and Ted Striker) Description: http://www.wearysloth.com/Gallery/ActorsN/12726-355.jpg Mike C. ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 04:10:03 PM PST US From: Ben Charvet Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1 The plugs get fouled because shutting off with the throttle closed is the equivalent of about 12 blades of priming. I shut off with the mag switch, but advance the throttle at the same time to avoid that problem. Ben On 9/7/2012 11:28 AM, Ryan Mueller wrote: > You're at idle when you turn off the mags, not bringing in much fuel > for a few seconds, how would that contribute to flooding? > > How do plugs get fouled if they are not sparking for a few seconds? > > Sure, if you turn off the fuel and want to wait until the engine > consumes the fuel in the bowl and dies, go ahead. Or just have SB 73 > done to the carb, and don't worry about it. > > > On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 10:09 AM, dgaldrich > wrote: > > > > > I seem to recall a knowledgeable person (the guy on the Bower's > list??) positing that flooding was caused by using the mags to > shut the engine down. Because the engine is still sucking fuel, > the plugs get fouled. He suggested shutting the engine down using > a fuel shutoff valve close to the carb fuel supply and opening the > throttle as it dies to get more air through. Also has the > advantage of stopping any dripping due to float level issues. > Something to think... > > Dave > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382596#382596 > > > ========== > st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > le, List Admin. > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > * > > > * -- Ben Charvet, PharmD Staff Pharmacist Parrish Medical center ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.