Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:18 AM - Re: cable and fittings (C N Campbell)
2. 06:43 AM - Re: cable and fittings (Michael Perez)
3. 08:50 AM - Wheels (K5YAC)
4. 09:03 AM - Re: Wheels (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC])
5. 09:36 AM - Re: Wheels (K5YAC)
6. 09:42 AM - Re: Fish Scale Thrust (bender)
7. 09:43 AM - Re: Wheels (Jim Markle)
8. 10:44 AM - Re: Wheels (gboothe5@comcast.net)
9. 10:56 AM - Re: Wheels (K5YAC)
10. 11:04 AM - Re: Wheels (AircamperN11MS)
11. 11:19 AM - Tubing Coping (K5YAC)
12. 11:31 AM - Re: Wheels (echobravo4)
13. 11:37 AM - Re: Tubing Coping (Jim Markle)
14. 11:45 AM - Re: Tubing Coping (K5YAC)
15. 11:50 AM - Re: Re: Tubing Coping (brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com)
16. 12:12 PM - Re: Re: Tubing Coping (Jim Markle)
17. 12:43 PM - Re: Tubing Coping (K5YAC)
18. 12:56 PM - Re: cable and fittings (Jerry Dotson)
19. 01:18 PM - Re: Re: Wheels (Amsafetyc)
20. 02:54 PM - Mounting Ailerons (John Francis)
21. 03:16 PM - Wood gear leg material? (FandS_Piet)
22. 03:20 PM - Brazed 4130 (FandS_Piet)
23. 03:38 PM - Re: Brazed 4130 (tools)
24. 03:44 PM - Re: Wood gear leg material? (tools)
25. 03:51 PM - Re: Mounting Ailerons (tools)
26. 04:28 PM - Re: Mounting Ailerons (John Francis)
27. 06:41 PM - Re: Brazed 4130 (Gerry Holland)
28. 06:43 PM - Re: Wheels (echobravo4)
29. 08:22 PM - Re: Tubing Coping (K5YAC)
30. 08:55 PM - Re: Tubing Coping (tools)
31. 09:14 PM - official fish scales (Oscar Zuniga)
32. 09:58 PM - Re: Tubing Coping (K5YAC)
33. 10:19 PM - Re: Brazed 4130 (taildrags)
34. 10:33 PM - Re: Fish Scale Thrust (taildrags)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: cable and fittings |
Tom, somewhere someone said not to use stainless cable but I can't
remember the reason. I am using galvanized 3/32 cable with zinc plated
copper crimps. If one is put on improperly it is a bear to get off.
You have to cut the fitting in about four places to pry the crimp off.
This is in places where you don't want to cut the cable. Chuck C.
Do not save.
----- Original Message -----
From: TOM MICHELLE BRANT
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 8:46 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: cable and fittings
I thought I recently saw a thread on this but cannot find it.. So -
sorry if this has been asked recently..
Was wondering if I use stainless cable, do I use copper, aluminum or
zinc crimps / thimbles, etc.. Seems odd that they wouldn't have
stainless fittings to go along with it but I cannot find them anywhere.
Same question if I were to use galvanized cable - although that seems
more clear that I would use zinc fittings. Specifically, looking at
doing the drag/anti-drag wires in the wings.
Thanks,
Tom B.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: cable and fittings |
For the record, I have SS cables exclusively on my plane. (STILL building...)
>From what I gather, copper or zinc sleeves for steel and galvanized wire rope,
tin plated copper or 304 SS sleeves for SS wire rope.
304 SS sleeves are available from McMaster.
Michael Perez
Pietenpol HINT Videos
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
Message 3
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After several months of waiting, I finally get to look at my completed wheels.
I purchased my hubs from Ken Perkins back in the spring and sent them out to
Buchanan's to get spokes cut and rims drilled. Received them back on April 19...
had them at the powder coater April 20, and then they sat at the local motorcycle
shop for over two months! I finally just went and picked them up with
the intention of lacing them up on my own sometime. Well, sometime finally came...
a friend of mine stopped by the hangar the other day... as he's looking
around he says, "what with those wheels?" I explained that I wasn't ready to
pull my hair out yet, and that I was saving them for a cold winter day. He grabs
a rim, a hub and a hand full of spokes and proceeds to lace one up in under
an hour. I forgot that he was a bicycle guy, and it never dawned on me to
ask him for help. He came back by last night and laced the other one, and now
has them at his house on his truing rig. As much as I wanted to learn to lace
wheels (not)... I sure do appreciate him getting them put together for me.
--------
Mark Chouinard
Wings, Center Section and Empannage and Fuse framed up - Working on Landing Gear
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385109#385109
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc01475_135.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0698_249.jpg
Message 4
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Your wire wheels look great Mark and way to go, hat's off to the gent who laced
and is truing your wheels for you. You could easily
do this yourself but the learning curve is steep for the first wheel but as with
all Pietenpol building the second 'anything' goes much faster.
They look great--are you planning on using any brakes? Steel landing gear legs
or wood?
Mike C.
Message 5
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Thanks Mike... I'm sure I could have done it, but wasn't something I was looking
forward to. With a fellow standing there that wanted to pitch in, I was glad
he found something he could accomplish. Some things I really want to do on
my own without a bunch of you know what I would do comments or interruptions...
wheels isn't one of them.
In the process of building steel tube gear and plan disc brakes with the Comet
calipers like many of you are using.
--------
Mark Chouinard
Wings, Center Section and Empannage and Fuse framed up - Working on Landing Gear
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385112#385112
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Fish Scale Thrust |
according to this calculator i found .... punching in the numbers ..
my engine is making 51 HP with the thrust being within 2 lbs of what the calculator
says for that pitch and length at 1750 rpm
http://personal.osi.hu/fuzesisz/strc_eng/index.htm
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385113#385113
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Message 8
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Mark,
I think it is very cool that you have contributions from others! That makes for
a really nice story...
Gary
NX308MB
------Original Message------
From: K5YAC
Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
ReplyTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wheels
Sent: Oct 11, 2012 8:50 AM
After several months of waiting, I finally get to look at my completed wheels.
I purchased my hubs from Ken Perkins back in the spring and sent them out to
Buchanan's to get spokes cut and rims drilled. Received them back on April 19...
had them at the powder coater April 20, and then they sat at the local motorcycle
shop for over two months! I finally just went and picked them up with
the intention of lacing them up on my own sometime. Well, sometime finally came...
a friend of mine stopped by the hangar the other day... as he's looking
around he says, "what with those wheels?" I explained that I wasn't ready to
pull my hair out yet, and that I was saving them for a cold winter day. He grabs
a rim, a hub and a hand full of spokes and proceeds to lace one up in under
an hour. I forgot that he was a bicycle guy, and it never dawned on me to
ask him for help. He came back by last night and laced the other one, and now
has them at his house on his truing rig. As much a!
s I wanted to learn to lace wheels (not)... I sure do appreciate him getting them
put together for me.
--------
Mark Chouinard
Wings, Center Section and Empannage and Fuse framed up - Working on Landing Gear
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385109#385109
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc01475_135.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0698_249.jpg
Sent on the Sprint Now Network from my BlackBerry
Message 9
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I'm just hoping I can squeak under that 51% rule. [Laughing]
--------
Mark Chouinard
Wings, Center Section and Empannage and Fuse framed up - Working on Landing Gear
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385116#385116
Message 10
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Mark,
Nobody will even notice the girls standing next to the plane with wheels like that.
Fantastic.
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385117#385117
Message 11
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Here is a really cool tool that a friend of mine showed me yesterday yes, the same
guy that laced my wheels. Hey, he is a 26 year-old pilot, P.E., neighbor
and co-worker. A pretty sharp kid who is currently building his own bicycle hes
been talking like he might like to try an airplane next. Anyhow, I told him
that I was struggling a bit with how I might shape the tubing for my landing
gear where it meets my axles without wasting a lot of material. I described
a method that I saw on EAA Hints for Homebuilders using the poster board and attempting
to crumple the ends and cut a template. He told me of a cycle design
program that would print the necessary template by inputting the intersecting
tubes and their angles.
So, by utilizing Pythagoras Theorem we can figure the angles and leg length, then
using the cycle building program we can produce a very accurate template for
coping a nicely fitted joint. Ive not tried this yet, but he has and it looks
like it works great. We even found some free coping calculators on the web
this one seems pretty straightforward.
http://www.metalgeek.com/static/cope.pcgi
Coping seems to be fairly simple with thin walled and small diameter tubing, but
it is much more difficult (and potentially costly) with large diameter and heavy
walled tubing. I hope this will keep me from scrapping my material.
--------
Mark Chouinard
Wings, Center Section and Empannage and Fuse framed up - Working on Landing Gear
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385118#385118
Message 12
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Very cool!
I've got about 6 years in a bike shop
and am really looking forward to lacing
mine
--------
Earl Brown
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I
intended to be.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385119#385119
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PT09PT09PT09PT09PQoKCgo
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| Subject: | Re: Tubing Coping |
I suppose that one could change the dimensions to end up with a correct OD print.
For example... if I were using 1.5" tubing, couldn't I enter 1.6" tube with
.100" wall and end up with a template suitable for the OD of my 1.5" tube?
Might try that on a test piece.
The software that my friend has actually prints two lines... one for the OD and
another for the taper needed to achieve the proper ID fit.
--------
Mark Chouinard
Wings, Center Section and Empannage and Fuse framed up - Working on Landing Gear
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385121#385121
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| Subject: | Re: Tubing Coping |
Good stuff Mark....thanks for sharing.
Brian
SLC-Ut
Do Not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of K5YAC
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 12:45 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Tubing Coping
I suppose that one could change the dimensions to end up with a correct
OD print. For example... if I were using 1.5" tubing, couldn't I enter
1.6" tube with .100" wall and end up with a template suitable for the OD
of my 1.5" tube? Might try that on a test piece.
The software that my friend has actually prints two lines... one for the
OD and another for the taper needed to achieve the proper ID fit.
--------
Mark Chouinard
Wings, Center Section and Empannage and Fuse framed up - Working on
Landing Gear
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385121#385121
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| Subject: | Re: Tubing Coping |
If the application is printing od (not important) and id (VERY important), you're
good to go!
Oh yeah, and that 51% rule? That's for work done....NOT how many parts just magically
show up at your hangar!!!
-----Original Message-----
>From: K5YAC <hangar10@cox.net>
>Sent: Oct 11, 2012 1:44 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Tubing Coping
>
>
>I suppose that one could change the dimensions to end up with a correct OD print.
For example... if I were using 1.5" tubing, couldn't I enter 1.6" tube with
.100" wall and end up with a template suitable for the OD of my 1.5" tube?
Might try that on a test piece.
>
>The software that my friend has actually prints two lines... one for the OD and
another for the taper needed to achieve the proper ID fit.
>
>--------
>Mark Chouinard
>Wings, Center Section and Empannage and Fuse framed up - Working on Landing Gear
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385121#385121
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Tubing Coping |
I'm not sure that I'm clear on you "OD not important" comment, Jim. If one were
to cut the OD to the ID measurement, it might become important, right? I mean,
depending on which side of the angle you may be working on, it would seem
that the ID could be the longer dimension, whereas the opposing side of the angle
would make it the shorter dimension, meaning that you would suddenly be lacking
material for a proper fit.
I'm told that the template actually accounts for the angle, leaving the greater
dimension for all sides of the fit, therefore allowing material for final shaping
after the finishing cut. Worst case, I suppose that the builder just needs
to visualize the fitted application and anticipate where to cut and where NOT
to cut (all the way to the line) in order to achieve the proper fit, but I
would think that the OD would be the important measurement since that is where
we are applying the template. I mean, if we were to apply the ID measurements,
the template wouldn't even fit around the tube, especially where a thick wall
were being used.
On my previous thought... another way to eliminate the ID/OD difference is to indicate
the proper tube diameter, but input a thin wall, say .035 (or less) instead
of .120 or whatever may be used.
--------
Mark Chouinard
Wings, Center Section and Empannage and Fuse framed up - Working on Landing Gear
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385126#385126
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| Subject: | Re: cable and fittings |
Tom I used 428-4-VM Tin Plated Copper nicopress sleeves on my 1/8" stainless cable
as reccomended by Nicopress.
http://www.nicopress.com/C3.htm
--------
Jerry Dotson
59 Daniel Johnson Rd
Baker, FL 32531
First flight June 16,2012
Started building July, 2009
21" wheels
Lycoming O-235 C2C
Jay Anderson CloudCars prop 76 X 44
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385128#385128
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I know a guy that has a set of wheels you can practice on. Just let me know when
you want to start on them
John
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 11, 2012, at 2:30 PM, "echobravo4" <eab4@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Very cool!
> I've got about 6 years in a bike shop
> and am really looking forward to lacing
> mine
>
> --------
> Earl Brown
>
> I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where
I intended to be.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385119#385119
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Mounting Ailerons |
Today I glued up more of my aileron and mounted the piano hinge to the aileron
spar attached to the wing. Now I must figure out how to accurately mount the
aileron to the hinge. If you've done this before you will know what I am talking
about and the challenges of marking the aileron spar correctly. Any bright
ideas out there?
--------
John Francis
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385136#385136
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc07759_150.jpg
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| Subject: | Wood gear leg material? |
Im ready to order spruce for my wood gear and am wondering if I should by spar
stock that is 2 3/4" x 1" and rip it down or cap strip that comes 2 1/2" x 1 and
is about half the price. I wasnt sure if the capstrip was high enough quality
spruce to use for the gear.
Thanks
--------
Fred Kim
Pittsburgh, Pa
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I have done alot of research about brazing 4130 and it was easy to come to the
conclusion that, to say the the least it is not advisable. Unfortunately the
research was done after we have already brazed some of our metal fittings. Now
knowing it should not be done my question is, is there anybody that is flying
with brazed 4130?
--------
Fred Kim
Pittsburgh, Pa
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385140#385140
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This is a tough one. After having done A LOT of research like I'm sure you have,
I've come to the conclusion that it's alright.
There's lots of reports about how the grain structure of 4130 will open SO MUCH
you can actually see it, but I've never seen pictures... I've not seen any real
authoritative source saying it's a dangerous practice.
All the naysayers seem to have secondhand information as to why it's bad.
However, practically ALL 4130 bicycle frames built in Europe are brazed, with no
ill effects that I'm aware of.
While they're not flying yet, I've brazed a number of parts for a biplane I'm helping
to restore, an old J-1 Standard. The old parts were regular steel that
had been brazed, so they could not then be welded to 4130 because of the contamination.
That being said, if you've run across some info you really trust that says you
shouldn't, forward it along please.
The parts I brazed on the standard are bellcranks to a torque tube in the control
system, so they're REALLY important. I did as much reading as I could. I
personally felt the bellcranks would fail before the joint let loose.
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| Subject: | Re: Wood gear leg material? |
The only issue here is whether or not it's straight and free from defects (wind
shakes, ie compression failures, knots, etc). If it is, the quality is high
enough.
There's no problem with gluing up to get the required width if that's an issue.
The biggest issue is making sure the legs fit the fittings well and tightly. If
they don't and get to moving, you're going to have a problem. Spruce isn't
very strong (it's the best strength to weight ratio, far from strong), so a good
fit amongst those pieces is critical. Especially in the fittings on the fuselage
as there isn't much surface area between them and the legs. Many folks
opt in increase the size of those fittings.
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385145#385145
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| Subject: | Re: Mounting Ailerons |
One trick is to use #2 screws with large area washers. That'll give you some lateral
adjustment. Once you're in place, drill in place for the vacant and adjacent
holes to the correct size, then replace the #2's with whatever you're using,
I imagine #4's or #6's.
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| Subject: | Re: Mounting Ailerons |
Thanks Tools, I like that idea.
--------
John Francis
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Fred Hi from England
I have been flying a Corben Junior with brazed 4130 frame. It was built at least
50 years ago.
A few weeks ago I had a violent crash in the aircraft and it's now completely written
off.
My reasoning for replying is that the frame held together at all brazed joints
and although the frame is distorted and bent no brazing looks to have split or
failed.
I cant give you any details on brazing type as I didn't construct but it was a
USA build.
The strength afforded by the 4130 fuselage frame is incredible and I would seek
out that type of construction again.
Wood too is impressive for strength and has probably an advantage of absorbing
shock. It's a debate we'll end now!!!
As an aside. some small structural repairs and modifications I have made over the
years and TIG was used in all those cases but not in area of braze directly.
Regards
Gerry
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John
I'll let you know when I'm ready to start
no the wheels and you can get ahold of
"That guy"!
--------
Earl Brown
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I
intended to be.
Read this topic online here:
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| Subject: | Re: Tubing Coping |
Jim... where did you go? Am I missing something on the tubing coping?
--------
Mark Chouinard
Wings, Center Section and Empannage and Fuse framed up - Working on Landing Gear
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385156#385156
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| Subject: | Re: Tubing Coping |
I'm pretty certain it pertains to the fact that the fit of the outside of the tubing
isn't as important as the fit of the circumference of the inner diameter.
That's because any gap visible from the outside can be welded in, in fact, purposely
creating that situation gives you a little "v" to weld in.
In the case of a good fit with the outside diameter, but poor fit on the inner
essentially leaves you with a thinner pipe to weld on.
In any case, your reasoning is correct. With this program (pretty cool by the
way, nice find!) I'd set the thickness of the tubing to .001 for an accurate pattern
to follow for the outside diameter. Then, try to visualize exactly what
is going on when you grind, file or cut to shape to make sure you don't "undercut".
If you delibrately err the other way, you'll merely have to file away
a portion of the thickness of the tubing as you fit to get a perfect union.
You can then rest assured you'll have a good fitting inner and outer diameters,
and will weld up securely.
Make sure to "clock code" the patterns so they orient correctly, like welding on
yoke fittings on a drive shaft.
You could probably also youtube how to cope home molding to help you visualize
what's going when you cope. There are actually other methods of generating the
shape to follow right on the tubing, utilizing only miter cuts on an abrasive
saw, cold saw, bandsaw, whatever.
Knowing how that works will make using this shape generation method, make more
sense. Also, play around with the tubing thickness and watch the shape change.
The minimum thickness it will accept is SOMETHING bigger than zero, and SOMETHING
less than 1/2 the diameter of the tubing.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385161#385161
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| Subject: | official fish scales |
How does one go about getting on the circulation list for the Official Fish
Scales? It seems that the Scales have so far been limited to use by prop
carvers=2C but I would be interested in knowing how Scout fares with the A7
5 and wood prop. I also have a Prince prop for it and would be interested
in a "fish head to fish head" comparison between the two if I had the scale
s available and could run one and then the other.
I will not have Scout up here and ready for testing until November=2C but w
ould be happy to pay shipping over and back if the Official Scales are avai
lable to non-carvers.
Oscar Zuniga
Medford=2C OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
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| Subject: | Re: Tubing Coping |
tools wrote:
> In any case, your reasoning is correct. With this program (pretty cool by the
way, nice find!) I'd set the thickness of the tubing to .001 for an accurate
pattern to follow for the outside diameter. Then, try to visualize exactly what
is going on when you grind, file or cut to shape to make sure you don't "undercut".
If you delibrately err the other way, you'll merely have to file away
a portion of the thickness of the tubing as you fit to get a perfect union.
You can then rest assured you'll have a good fitting inner and outer diameters,
and will weld up securely.
Ok, this is essentially what I did tonight... on the first try. I just wasn't
getting (and still kind of don't) how the OD is not important. I would think
that attempt cutting to the ID, especially on the side of the acute angle, would
be difficult and would create the unwanted situation that you describe. Cutting
to the OD will at least leave material necessary to grind/file to fit...
cutting to ID, not the case.
Anyhow, this is being made too difficult. I've only offered this to eliminate
the guesswork on these complex shapes. Use whatever method you prefer to get
the correct angles, plug in your details and print. Transfer to your material
and cut/grind/file to fit.
--------
Mark Chouinard
Wings, Center Section and Empannage and Fuse framed up - Working on Landing Gear
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385166#385166
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Gerry: please tell me that the Corben that was bent in the "violent crash" was
not the one with the beautiful polished cooling eyebrows? Oh, Lord- I am glad
that you are alright. Rum thing, losing an airplane, though...
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385167#385167
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| Subject: | Re: Fish Scale Thrust |
Holy @#$%!!! That calculator says that on a warmish day, I should be seeing over
400 lbs. on the Official Fish Scale, developing 90HP, and seeing 83 MPH!!!
Man, oh man-! I had better reinforce the shoulder harness and seat belt mounting
points on Scout, before I get sucked out of the bloomin' cockpit by the forward
velocity and intense thrust!!
Wow. I can't wait to get my airplane back so I can enjoy all of this ka-pow performance.
(Don't pay any attention to me... I'm suffering from Piet deprivation)
do not archive
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385169#385169
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