Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:55 AM - Re: Weight and balance (Michael Perez)
2. 04:18 AM - spins (Douwe Blumberg)
3. 04:42 AM - Re: Weight and balance (helspersew@aol.com)
4. 04:49 AM - Re: Weight and balance (bender)
5. 05:04 AM - Re: spins (tools)
6. 06:26 AM - Re: Re: Weight and balance (Michael Perez)
7. 07:38 AM - My first Pietenpoling adventure!! (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC])
8. 07:48 AM - flying in the Navy (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC])
9. 09:09 AM - Re: flying in the Navy (tools)
10. 09:18 AM - Re: Re: spins (Michael Perez)
11. 09:22 AM - Re: flying in the Navy (TOM STINEMETZE)
12. 11:18 AM - Re: flying in the Navy (jarheadpilot82)
13. 11:29 AM - Re: spins (jarheadpilot82)
14. 11:42 AM - Re: Re: spins (Dan Yocum)
15. 11:50 AM - Re: Re: spins (Dan Yocum)
16. 11:53 AM - back on topic... Pietenpol repairs (Dan Yocum)
17. 12:06 PM - Re: Re: Cessna hits moving car on landing! Video... (Dan Yocum)
18. 12:57 PM - Re: Re: flying in the Navy (Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB)
19. 01:18 PM - Re: spins (Don Emch)
20. 01:24 PM - Re: spins (Don Emch)
21. 01:57 PM - Re: Re: flying in the Navy (Jeffery Hammer)
22. 02:41 PM - Re: spins (jarheadpilot82)
23. 03:21 PM - Re: back on topic... Pietenpol repairs (tools)
24. 04:47 PM - Jack Greiner inducted into the CO Aviation HoF (Ryan Mueller)
25. 05:20 PM - Re: Re: flying in the Navy (Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB)
26. 05:34 PM - Re: flying in the Navy (tools)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and balance |
That is not a bad weight at all. With the electrical system, even a small one,
I expected a heavier weight. Did you build the entire plane yourself, or buy a
project?
Michael Perez
Pietenpol HINT Videos
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
Message 2
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I've been getting some unhappy emails and I just want to go on record that I
by relating that story, I am not suggesting or condoning spinning your
Pietenpol. I'm just reporting what I saw my plane do yesterday morning.
I too have never heard of a modern Piet being spun and since he didn't get
killed, I find it an interesting "first" as people over the years have
wondered about what would happen. Now I know.
Douwe
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and balance |
Jeff,
Your Piet is going to jump off the ground at that weight. Way to go! Can't
wait to see it fly.
Dan Helsper
Puryear, TN
-----Original Message-----
From: bender <jfaith@solairusaviation.com>
Sent: Tue, Nov 6, 2012 7:23 pm
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Weight and balance
>
So i weighed the piet today..
I was a little scared because i have an electrical system..
I'm running a small odyssey battery and an alternator because i need a radi
o and
transponder. I'm following the corvair guys ignition system with a dual poi
nt
distributor with 2 coils...a simple backup...works good.
so.. 665 lbs empty.... that includes water and oil
most extreme aft cg condition is 18.9 inches aft of the leading edge
and it moves only about an inch forward removing fuel and passenger weight
if i
loose a few lbs it'll be even better.
ready to schedule a visit for an airworthiness certificate
jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387131#387131
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and balance |
I did it all...
started nov 1st of 2010.
I tried to keep things simple...and light
the aluminum radiator and head weight savings make up for the alternator and battery
and the distributor with 2 coils is no more than a mag i would bet..
one piece wing....3/4" douglas fir spar...poplar fuselage..aluminum struts
tail skid..no wheel.. 4 1/2" band brakes..
transponder/encoder and a flightline 760 radio...its tiny..
i didn't use turnbuckles in places i could get away with making cables to fit..
then giving them a twist like all over the tail.
jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387149#387149
Message 5
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The only heartburn I have is what you experienced... not sure I'd be happy with
someone spinning my plane without asking or talking about it first...
BUT, it IS good to know that at least one modern Piet apparantly spins reasonably
normally. Of course, do any of us know what a "normal" spin is? The guys
I flew with in the navy who had the "spin qualification" (we would throw a T-2
Buckeye into ALL SORTS of fun departures, spins [upright and inverted]) had all
sorts of things to say about EACH plane that was in the spin program (extra
lapbelts, and they were all bent, flew weird), and of course they were all t-2s,
built by the same company.
I'm not worried about the stresses involved, just whether or not it just pops out
of a spin like other airplanes I've spun would. Of course, I've only spun
planes that were well known for decent spinning characteristics. So one that
might take really proper application of anti spin, could spell disaster.
I flew s-3s in the Navy. That's a plane that WON'T spin, unless you hold the spin
controls in (rudder is too big). Of course, do you know what the procedures
for getting out of a spin are, for that plane? You guessed it, spin controls
for the OTHER direction (only to be the same as all the other planes in the
fleet, just plane stupid). We used to practice a departure, post stall gyration
(what we called it because it technically wasn't a spin) and recovery. As
with ALL jets in the Navy (at that time, it's changed somewhat since) if you
didn't recover by 10K' agl, you eject. There have been TWO s-3s that couldn't
recover by 10k' agl and they both ejected (one was a pretty good friend). Ironically,
BOTH incidents were EYE WITNESSED by another plane in the operating
area and BOTH saw the plane recover from the spin (er, post stall gyration) after
the pilot was gone...
The point is, it's pretty easy to be freaked out by something, anything different
than what you're used to, even if you're trained pretty well. Even if you're
good at recovering a well mannered spinner, you may not be good at recovering
an ill mannered spinner, which could spell disaster.
I'm pretty sure this group is far to the right of conservative (no political connotation,
I promise!) , but still, just seems worth repeating.
By the way, I was the Aviation Safety Officer in my last squadron. And while I'm
not your typical "safety nazi", I do believe discussions like this help keep
awareness at a good level.
I would say that if you have training in recovering less than really stable planes
from spins, and you're confident (and not over populated terrain), then go
for it. Otherwise, proceed with due caution!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387150#387150
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and balance |
That is a solid way to approach the build process...as evident from your W&B.
Nice job!
Michael Perez
Pietenpol HINT Videos
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
Message 7
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| Subject: | My first Pietenpoling adventure!! |
Douwe-- I for one would LOVE to hear your instructors complete description of the
spin he did and his thoughts
on the recovery. Having spun Champs and Cubs I've always wanted to see how
the Piet would spin but haven't
so would love to hear what your instructor's impressions were.
You've got the long fuselage or short?
Thank you!
All great info---
Mike C.
(and spinning or not spinning your Piet is a personal choice just as much as using
mogas or cargas, a 1 pce or 3 pce wing, wheel landings
or three pointers...do it your way.)
Message 8
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| Subject: | flying in the Navy |
Tools.....so you flew in the NAVY?
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: flying in the Navy |
Yep. Graduated at the very TOP (of the bottom ten percent) of my class at USNA
and was awarded the coveted position of Anti Submarine Warfare Officer on the
USS Meyerkord... wups. Turns out the culpable result of going to the Naval Academy
is driving a ship....
However, managed to find a way into flight school from that job and flew T-34Cs,
T-2Cs then TA-4J's in flight school.
Flew S-3Bs in the fleet off the USS Carl Vinson. Fun jet, just a little like a
moped, lots of fun, just don't want your friends to see you flying it!
Only claim to fame there is that when Bush went out to the carrier some years ago,
that was my old squadron. The guy flying him was one of my former instructors
in the RAG.
While a jet and I dropped as many live 500 lb bombs as all my F18 buddies (and
a lot more torpedos), it's kind of a bastard step child in the airwing. Nice
safe jet around the boat though.
Then all got good when my last tour was in TA-4Js in Meridian (my dad was a plane
captain on A-4s in 1960 and I was an instructor in them in 1999!). Taught
kids how to do all the fun stuff, dropping bombs, shooting the gun, tactical formation,
night formation (ok, kind of like sticking pencils in your eyes), low
level formation, dogfighting, landing on the carrier in good weather and showing
off for your family on cross countries!
Came out with 1800 hrs and 200 traps (about 80 at night, those suck). At airshows
people would thank me for my service, to which I would promptly thank THEM
for participating on April 15. Tax Day. Thanks to all the good tax payers in
the country, I got ONE HELL of a good ride!
Tools is a desparate hang on to the glory days, it was my callsign. Hell, still
have a bunch of friends that don't even know my real name. That and there's
always a half dozen of us Mikes in the crowd anyway. Had some sort of nick name
my entire life.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387161#387161
Message 10
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I do not own the sim., myself, but a friend. of mine has Microsoft Flight Simulator
X. (10) Believe it or not, the sim. had a Pietenpol that I flew through all
types of maneuvers. THAT particular plane did quite well. (It is modeled with
a Ford "A".)
Michael Perez
Pietenpol HINT Videos
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: flying in the Navy |
Tools:
You can soft pedal it all you want but when you are flying in a place where the
other guy really does not want you to be (to the tune of throwing bits of metal
at you) the very least you deserve is a word of THANKS! All you vets out there
have my undying admiration.
Tom Stinemetze
N328Xray (maybe 2 more years)
do not archive
>>> "tools" <n0kkj@yahoo.com> 11/7/2012 11:09 AM >>>
Yep. Graduated at the very TOP (of the bottom ten percent) of my class at USNA
and was awarded the coveted position of Anti Submarine Warfare Officer on the
USS Meyerkord... wups. Turns out the culpable result of going to the Naval Academy
is driving a ship....
However, managed to find a way into flight school from that job and flew T-34Cs,
T-2Cs then TA-4J's in flight school.
Flew S-3Bs in the fleet off the USS Carl Vinson. Fun jet, just a little like a
moped, lots of fun, just don't want your friends to see you flying it!
Only claim to fame there is that when Bush went out to the carrier some years ago,
that was my old squadron. The guy flying him was one of my former instructors
in the RAG.
While a jet and I dropped as many live 500 lb bombs as all my F18 buddies (and
a lot more torpedos), it's kind of a bastard step child in the airwing. Nice
safe jet around the boat though.
Then all got good when my last tour was in TA-4Js in Meridian (my dad was a plane
captain on A-4s in 1960 and I was an instructor in them in 1999!). Taught
kids how to do all the fun stuff, dropping bombs, shooting the gun, tactical formation,
night formation (ok, kind of like sticking pencils in your eyes), low
level formation, dogfighting, landing on the carrier in good weather and showing
off for your family on cross countries!
Came out with 1800 hrs and 200 traps (about 80 at night, those suck). At airshows
people would thank me for my service, to which I would promptly thank THEM
for participating on April 15. Tax Day. Thanks to all the good tax payers in
the country, I got ONE HELL of a good ride!
Tools is a desparate hang on to the glory days, it was my callsign. Hell, still
have a bunch of friends that don't even know my real name. That and there's
always a half dozen of us Mikes in the crowd anyway. Had some sort of nick name
my entire life.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: flying in the Navy |
I was wondering whether or not he was going to admit going to that "little school
in Annapolis." [Wink]
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387166#387166
Message 13
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Mike (Perez, not Tools),
I spent almost 5 years at my current employer in the Training Department and have
multiple thousands of hours in simulators. The one thing that I learned holds
true in multi-million dollar 757 and 767 simulators (and should hold true in
simulation software) is this- just because the simulator does something a certain
way, does not guarantee that the actual aircraft will do the same. The simulator
is probably 95-96% like the airplane but every once in a while it just
did not respond the same way. Software can't replicate everything. There is
just not enough code to be able to do it perfectly.
I am still building and learning much about Pietenpols, so my construction knowledge
is small, but growing. But what I do have, though, is a lot of experience
in aircraft simulation. I just did not want you to think that the airplane
may necessarily respond in the same way a simulator does, especially in a maneuver
not normally flown, such as spins.
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387167#387167
Message 14
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Please tell me that you did not actually attempt to make the claim, in a
public forum with a bunch of actual pilots, that a Pietenpol is safe to
spin, because your friend has Flight Simulator X and the model of the
Pietenpol in that computer game spins quite well...
Oh.
my.
god.
Listen to yourself, man! Does that sound like a comment that a sane and
reasonable person would make???
On 11/07/2012 11:18 AM, Michael Perez wrote:
> I do not own the sim., myself, but a friend. of mine has Microsoft
> Flight Simulator X. (10) Believe it or not, the sim. had a Pietenpol
> that I flew through all types of maneuvers. THAT particular plane did
> quite well. (It is modeled with a Ford "A".)
>
> Michael Perez
> Pietenpol HINT Videos
> Karetaker Aero
> www.karetakeraero.com
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 15
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Please add the following to non-pietenpol related emails:
do not archive
On 11/07/2012 07:04 AM, tools wrote:
>
> The only heartburn I have is what you experienced... not sure I'd be happy with
someone spinning my plane without asking or talking about it first...
>
> BUT, it IS good to know that at least one modern Piet apparantly spins reasonably
normally. Of course, do any of us know what a "normal" spin is? The guys
I flew with in the navy who had the "spin qualification" (we would throw a T-2
Buckeye into ALL SORTS of fun departures, spins [upright and inverted]) had
all sorts of things to say about EACH plane that was in the spin program (extra
lapbelts, and they were all bent, flew weird), and of course they were all
t-2s, built by the same company.
>
> I'm not worried about the stresses involved, just whether or not it just pops
out of a spin like other airplanes I've spun would. Of course, I've only spun
planes that were well known for decent spinning characteristics. So one that
might take really proper application of anti spin, could spell disaster.
>
> I flew s-3s in the Navy. That's a plane that WON'T spin, unless you hold the
spin controls in (rudder is too big). Of course, do you know what the procedures
for getting out of a spin are, for that plane? You guessed it, spin controls
for the OTHER direction (only to be the same as all the other planes in the
fleet, just plane stupid). We used to practice a departure, post stall gyration
(what we called it because it technically wasn't a spin) and recovery.
As with ALL jets in the Navy (at that time, it's changed somewhat since) if you
didn't recover by 10K' agl, you eject. There have been TWO s-3s that couldn't
recover by 10k' agl and they both ejected (one was a pretty good friend).
Ironically, BOTH incidents were EYE WITNESSED by another plane in the operating
area and BOTH saw the plane recover from the spin (er, post stall gyration)
after the pilot was gone...
>
> The point is, it's pretty easy to be freaked out by something, anything different
than what you're used to, even if you're trained pretty well. Even if you're
good at recovering a well mannered spinner, you may not be good at recovering
an ill mannered spinner, which could spell disaster.
>
> I'm pretty sure this group is far to the right of conservative (no political
connotation, I promise!) , but still, just seems worth repeating.
>
> By the way, I was the Aviation Safety Officer in my last squadron. And while
I'm not your typical "safety nazi", I do believe discussions like this help keep
awareness at a good level.
>
> I would say that if you have training in recovering less than really stable planes
from spins, and you're confident (and not over populated terrain), then
go for it. Otherwise, proceed with due caution!
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387150#387150
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | back on topic... Pietenpol repairs |
Tool
How's the repair of Dick Navratil's Pietenpol coming?
Dan
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Cessna hits moving car on landing! Video... |
I think people forget what those white "tents" mean at the east end of
the runway. Those Ohio boys at 1:40, 2:40, 3:11 have it down pat.
I don't have much room to talk, though. I never got as low as Lowell
did, but I did have a tendency to touch down before the displaced
threshold...
On 11/06/2012 08:53 PM, Greg Cardinal wrote:
> <gcardinal@comcast.net>
>
> Watch seconds :30 - :50
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nIywIgxevI
>
>> Roads at the ends of runways are BAD. Didn't a P51 hit a pickup truck
>> at Brodhead? I know some airplane at Pioneer field clipped the top of
>> the tram that goes from the museum to the airfield. I witnessed a
>> crop duster take off (overweight) and would have hit a car if it were
>> there. Got to be a million more cases, just not many on video...
>
>
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: flying in the Navy |
Is that school in Annapolis accredited anywhere? I was going to go there but they
found out my parents were married!
Steve D
Army OCS
----- Original Message -----
From: jarheadpilot82 <jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: flying in the Navy
>
> I was wondering whether or not he was going to admit going to that "little school
in Annapolis." [Wink]
>
> --------
> Semper Fi,
>
> Terry Hand
> Athens, GA
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387166#387166
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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Hey Douwe,
There is something comforting about knowing your plane was spin tested. I believe
Ty (very nice black and red) from Brodhead spins his on a somewhat regular
basis. At least he told me he did.
If you don't mind me asking, do you know where the CG might have been for the spin?
It would be interesting to know. An very experienced test pilot once flew
mine, after saying that they were just going to taxi it, and it had only about
2-3 gallons in the nose tank. With his weight it actually had a CG at 37%
of the chord and he said it flew fine.
Don Emch
NX899DE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387181#387181
Message 20
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Just to add on to the last post, before anyone gets excited. I have not and absolutely
will not fly my airplane with the CG beyond the 30% limit. In fact I
have never had it beyond about 26%. Just wanted to put that out there.... The
flight I mentioned in the previous post was umm... inadvertant, ha, according
to the pilot.
Don Emch
NX899DE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387182#387182
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: flying in the Navy |
Oh great someone from the "*O*ccupational *C*harity *S*quad" is jousting
with the academy!
On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB <
steven.d.dortch@us.army.mil> wrote:
> steven.d.dortch@us.army.mil>
>
> Is that school in Annapolis accredited anywhere? I was going to go there
> but they found out my parents were married!
>
> Steve D
> Army OCS
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: jarheadpilot82 <jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com>
> Date: Wednesday, November 7, 2012 13:25
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: flying in the Navy
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>
>
> >
> > I was wondering whether or not he was going to admit going to that
> "little school in Annapolis." [Wink]
> >
> > --------
> > Semper Fi,
> >
> > Terry Hand
> > Athens, GA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387166#387166
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 22
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One last thought on spins in general. My last tour in the Marine Corps was as a
Flight Instructor in Pensacola at Navy Flight School. I taught in Primary Flight
Training. I was the guy that got the students started in their flying careers
before they headed to Tools and other advanced training.
In Primary Flight training, we taught spins and I have literally done hundreds
of them. They are fun, fun, fun. But the reality is this- If you get into a situation
that you are unintentionally entering a spin (especially in a low and
slow Pietenpol) and have to rely on your knowledge of spin recovery procedures,
you have really messed up. Spin recovery procedures aren't going to save you
at 300-400 feet in the pattern. Spin entry and recovery techniques are far less
important than spin recognition and spin avoidance.
I do not think that I would intentionally spin my Pietenpol without doing some
serious engineering testing to verify the strength of my aircraft and the quality
of my construction. These are not certified aircraft that have engineering
data to support either doing or not doing spins. So, if you want to do spins
in your aircraft, that is your call. My point is that you need to realize the
stresses you are putting on your uncertified aircraft, but also don't kid yourself
into thinking that knowing how to do spins somehow makes you a better pilot.
Also, these types of discussions that help all of us to be better and safer pilots
in flying our airplanes IS Pietenpol related, so I see no need to append this
discussion with three words.
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387188#387188
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: back on topic... Pietenpol repairs |
You'll have to ask Dick how his plane is, but I don't think anything ever happened
to it...
My Piet is still in Indiana as I get an annual done on my Chief, make a runway
here at the house and put up a hangar. I think all the bull dozer work is done
for the hangar, nearly so for the runway.
My son and I are cutting trees like mad on the our new sawmill (cool old 48" circular)
to get the walls up, then we've got to dismantle 60' of a 40' span chicken
house for the trusses and tin.
We've already prepped the chicken house and reclaimed 60 rolls r19 insulation,
so it should be insulated right from the get go...
I plan to get NX2RN back here within a week or two, we just found the PERFECT 32'
long, 5' wide trailer with 3500lb drop axles, 4 wheel brakes that's light enough
to be very easily and safely towed by a 1/2 ton truck to bring her home,
so we're busy putting a new deck on it.
Got lots of irons in the fire...
Oh, and the Chief is coming with a great Piet project... Well, it's a 2 seat open
cockpit parasol with t-craft wood wings, steel tube fuse, piper tail feathers,
c150 main gear (it's a tail dragger though) and based around a c85. That's
close enough to call it a piet, right?
Actually it's a one of homebuilt experimental called a Sturgeon originally built
in the mid 70's.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387191#387191
Message 24
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| Subject: | Jack Greiner inducted into the CO Aviation HoF |
http://www.timescall.com/news/longmont-local-news/ci_21908804/longmont-pilot-mentor-jack-greiner-inducted-into-colorado?source=email
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: flying in the Navy |
I think I am offended, but I did not understand the joke!
LOL
Steve D
Knuckle draggin Grunt
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeffery Hammer <jefferyhammer@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: flying in the Navy
> Oh great someone from the "*O*ccupational *C*harity *S*quad" is
> joustingwith the academy!
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB <steven.d.dortch@us.army.mil>
wrote:
>
> >
> > Is that school in Annapolis accredited anywhere? I was going to go there
> > but they found out my parents were married!
> >
> > Steve D
> > Army OCS
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: jarheadpilot82 <
> > Date: Wednesday, November 7, 2012 13:25
> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: flying in the Navy
> > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> >
> >
> > > I was wondering whether or not he was going to admit going to that
> > "little school in Annapolis." [Wink]
> > >
> > > --------
> > > Semper Fi,
> > >
> > > Terry Hand
> > > Athens, GA
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Read this topic online here:
> > >
> > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387166#387166
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: flying in the Navy |
Maybe Jeffery is ROTC and we're both getting a thumbed nose!
Tools
Nasal Radiator
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387198#387198
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