Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:12 AM - Re: Re: real life (helspersew@aol.com)
2. 05:25 AM - rigging (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC])
3. 07:21 AM - John Dilatush (Gary Boothe)
4. 08:13 AM - Re: John Dilatush (Greg Bacon)
5. 10:27 AM - Re: Wing Rotator sketch (Chris Rusch)
6. 10:37 AM - Re: Re: Wing Rotator sketch (Ken Bickers)
7. 11:02 AM - Re: Pietenpol Headsets (Jim Boyer)
8. 11:39 AM - Dihedral and washout (Douwe Blumberg)
9. 11:39 AM - Re: Wing Rotator sketch (Chris Rusch)
10. 12:47 PM - Re: Dihedral and washout (C N Campbell)
11. 12:59 PM - Re: Dihedral and washout (C N Campbell)
12. 01:11 PM - Re: Dihedral and washout (Jeffery Hammer)
13. 02:55 PM - Re: Dihedral and washout (Gene Rambo)
14. 03:11 PM - Re: Dihedral and washout (Jack Phillips)
Message 1
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My Piet wing is a Hershey bar, flat as a board, no dihedral or wash-anythin
g. Flies fine and stall is gentle.
Dan Helsper
Puryear, TN
-----Original Message-----
From: taildrags <taildrags@hotmail.com>
Sent: Fri, Nov 9, 2012 12:38 am
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: real life
Ken: the numbers that you've quoted will work just fine. There are Piets f
lying
with essentially NO washout or dihedral (dead-flat, dead-straight wing). T
here
are others that are rigged as the Pietenpol family's notes suggest (if you
don't
have the Pietenpol family's plans and notes, buy them), and there are other
s
that are rigged somewhere inbetween or beyond. I have only flown one Piet
-Scout- so I can't offer comparisons. Scout has a dihedral of roughly 3" f
rom
wing root to wing tip and essentially NO washout.
About the dihedral, classical aerodynamics textbooks will tell you that a l
ittle
dihedral goes a long way towards providing stability in roll. Since I've n
ever
flown a Piet with zero dihedral, I can't confirm the validity of that state
ment,
but if you search the archives you'll find that people have said that they
don't
find that zero dihedral leads to instability or divergence in roll. I thin
k my
airplane has a bit too much, but that's based on aesthetics... I prefer the
look
of a straight line leading edge from wingtip to wingtip.
About the washout, the intent is to have the wing stall progressively from
root
to tip so that the airplane doesn't fall off on a wing in a stall. My airp
lane
has no apparent washout and it doesn't ever seem to want to fall off to one
side
or the other in a stall. Still, it is quite easy to dial in washout on a P
iet
wing if it's set up with conventional threaded forks on the lower ends of t
he
lift struts. If you pick a consistent spot on the wing to check the angle
of
incidence and then use a standard "angle finder" mounted to a lath or piece
of
wood that you hold up to the bottom of the wing between the spars, you can
set
whatever amount of washout you want by screwing the strut attachment forks
in or
out as desired. Set the angle finder at the wing root, then out at the las
t
rib, and the difference is your washout angle. Easier with two or three pe
ople
and some patience ;o) Oh, and make sure the wing strut X-brace wires are l
oose
or slack when you're doing this... th!
ey only get tightened after you're done monkeying around with the adjustme
nts.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387349#387349
Message 2
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Ken, all-- My Pietenpol wing is rigged to have 3/8" washout at the aft end
of the 3rd rib in from the end of each wing. Much like a J-3's
washout or Aeronca Champ's washout are set at. My ailerons were rigged to
each have about 3/16" to a 1/4" droop on the ground with
stick neutral. The older IA's at my field who helped me said this practic
e was commonplace on Cubs to DC-3's and the idea is that during
level cruise the airflow over the wings pushes the ailerons up to the neutr
al position taking out the bit of normal play in the aileron cable system.
I believe my dihedral is about an inch at the wingtips.
What I've found on my Piet is that an improperly rigged (twisted) horizonta
l stabilizer can make you think you have a wing (roll tendency) rigging
issue. You can even have one elevator rigged a little higher or lower tha
n the other and it makes like a wing issue so sorting these things out
in your flight test period is helpful in whiling away the hours in your pra
ctice area.
My Uncle Tony Bingelis has some excellent passages about rigging and flight
testing our airplanes to get them to fly as hands-off and cleanly
(there's a word you don't hear too often associated with Pietenpols) as pos
sible and this relates to gentle and straightforward stalling characteristi
cs
as well.
The Piets I have flown with no dihedral fly just great but for hands off, f
olding charts, reaching down for wayward sunglasses on the cockpit
floor in flight kind of times the ones with a little dihedral don't wander
as much in roll.
Mike C.
Message 3
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John - are you out there? Does anyone have contact info for John?
Gary Boothe
NX308MB
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| Subject: | Re: John Dilatush |
Gary,
Call me when you get a chance. I have John's contact info I can share with
you off list.
Sadly, John has given up flying due to age related health issues. I recall
he learned to fly in 1947.
Greg Bacon
573-489-4795
On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 9:19 AM, Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net> wrote:
> John ' are you out there? Does anyone have contact info for John?****
>
> ** **
>
> Gary Boothe****
>
> NX308MB****
>
> ** **
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
--
Greg Bacon
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Rotator sketch |
I just added the wing adapter drawing.
--------
NX321LR
Fully Assembled
Tail assembly and ailerons covered and painted.
Wings to be covered next.
Mitsubishi Powered
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387383#387383
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Rotator sketch |
Chris, I'm not seeing an attachment. Cheers, Ken
On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 11:27 AM, Chris Rusch <rmdinfo@rmdbenders.com> wrote:
>
> I just added the wing adapter drawing.
>
> --------
> NX321LR
> Fully Assembled
> Tail assembly and ailerons covered and painted.
> Wings to be covered next.
> Mitsubishi Powered
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387383#387383
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Headsets |
I am=C2- getting closer and would like to know what headsets people are u
sing in their Piets and are you happy with the headset?
I have the Flightech Intercom; ITC-401TC ENRI and intend to use it with eit
her the ICOM A14 or A24 radio.
Appreciate any comments.
Thanks,
Jim B.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Dihedral and washout |
Ken,
RE-PIET has zero dihedral, and no noticeable washout. The ailerons are
rigged so that when neutral, they each rest about =BD=94 above the
trailing edge
to give some =93false=94 washout. I have no idea if it works, but she
flies
quite nicely and stalls EXTREMELY gently with zero tendency to fall off
either way. She=92s pretty neutral in a turn, but in a sharpish turn,
she
will very gently want to tighten it up. Less than other Piets I=92ve
flown,
one of which was a bit scary, especially to the left=85
Added some extended =93downtubes=94 on my exhaust today to try to get
the smoke
away from the fuse/tail feathers. Got it off the fuse, but still
getting on
the underside of the horz stab. Don=92t know how far down I=92d have to
go to
make that stop. Guess I=92ll just keep extending until it stops and
make the
decision whether to go with that or just not use smoke very often and
clean
it up after each smoking session.
On the ferry flight back to my home base yesterday, just as the airport
hove
into view, my engine started to vibrate. I throttled back and it
smoothed
out, then the vibration started at the lower rpm. I was really nervous,
thinking my prop was falling off or my engine mount had broken. Trying
to
make a nice kosher entrance to the pattern, she really started to
vibrate so
I just took her down, sideslipped in and made a surprisingly good
landing on
the pavement for a frightened/frozen aviator with four asphalt landings
in
the Piet to his credit.
Shut her down, got out and fuel was dripping out of my carb and the
sides
were covered with black sooty exhaust. Some foreign object had jammed
the
float open and she was funning SUPER rich. Great excuse to uncowl her
today
and ck everything now that she=92s got five ours of flight time.
Checked all
the strainers, took the bowl off the carb and cleared it, checked
everything
else, ran her up and went for a lovely fifteen minute flight over my
house.
Found one loose prop bolt and the rest definitely needed torque-ing.
DON=92T
SKIMP ON CHECKING YOUR PROP BOLTS ON WOODEN PROPS REGULARLY AND OFTEN.
I
THINK 25 HRS ISN=92T ENOUGH, ESPECIALLY WITH A NEW PROP. My mechanic
did it
with me and showed me how to properly safety wire the prop bolts. I
must
have not done it just right so allow one to back out as it did.
Everything looked good in there, including the dozen or so un-safetied
hose
clamps=85
Douwe.
Ps. Does anyone have a good system for using gps when flying and yet
still
keeping track of their approximate position on a chart in the case gps
poops?
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Rotator sketch |
I attached it to the original message....Its shows it there...
--------
NX321LR
Fully Assembled
Tail assembly and ailerons covered and painted.
Wings to be covered next.
Mitsubishi Powered
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387387#387387
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Dihedral and washout |
My answer to your PS: Leave the GPS in the hangar and use the chart
ONLY. I just don't like these new fangled thangs! Chuck
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Douwe Blumberg
To: pietenpolgroup
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 2:39 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Dihedral and washout
Ken,
RE-PIET has zero dihedral, and no noticeable washout. The ailerons
are rigged so that when neutral, they each rest about =BD" above the
trailing edge to give some "false" washout. I have no idea if it works,
but she flies quite nicely and stalls EXTREMELY gently with zero
tendency to fall off either way. She's pretty neutral in a turn, but in
a sharpish turn, she will very gently want to tighten it up. Less than
other Piets I've flown, one of which was a bit scary, especially to the
left.
Added some extended "downtubes" on my exhaust today to try to get the
smoke away from the fuse/tail feathers. Got it off the fuse, but still
getting on the underside of the horz stab. Don't know how far down I'd
have to go to make that stop. Guess I'll just keep extending until it
stops and make the decision whether to go with that or just not use
smoke very often and clean it up after each smoking session.
On the ferry flight back to my home base yesterday, just as the
airport hove into view, my engine started to vibrate. I throttled back
and it smoothed out, then the vibration started at the lower rpm. I was
really nervous, thinking my prop was falling off or my engine mount had
broken. Trying to make a nice kosher entrance to the pattern, she
really started to vibrate so I just took her down, sideslipped in and
made a surprisingly good landing on the pavement for a frightened/frozen
aviator with four asphalt landings in the Piet to his credit.
Shut her down, got out and fuel was dripping out of my carb and the
sides were covered with black sooty exhaust. Some foreign object had
jammed the float open and she was funning SUPER rich. Great excuse to
uncowl her today and ck everything now that she's got five ours of
flight time. Checked all the strainers, took the bowl off the carb and
cleared it, checked everything else, ran her up and went for a lovely
fifteen minute flight over my house.
Found one loose prop bolt and the rest definitely needed torque-ing.
DON'T SKIMP ON CHECKING YOUR PROP BOLTS ON WOODEN PROPS REGULARLY AND
OFTEN. I THINK 25 HRS ISN'T ENOUGH, ESPECIALLY WITH A NEW PROP. My
mechanic did it with me and showed me how to properly safety wire the
prop bolts. I must have not done it just right so allow one to back out
as it did.
Everything looked good in there, including the dozen or so un-safetied
hose clamps.
Douwe.
Ps. Does anyone have a good system for using gps when flying and yet
still keeping track of their approximate position on a chart in the case
gps poops?
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Dihedral and washout |
Douwe, I have never used a GPS -- never even seen one except for the
automobile variety. Well, my son is a marathoner and he has a gps in
his watch to tell him how far he has run in practice sessions. I'm just
a proponent of the old fashioned method of: draw a line on the
sectional chart and watch the ground as it rolls by. If all of a sudden
you see something that's not on the chart, start worrying. :>) (It
might just be an old chart!)
I think I'll stick to your method on the wing -- no dihedral and no
washout. Seems this thread went by some months ago. In fact, I don't
think I'll use any adjustment in the wing struts. Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: Douwe Blumberg
To: pietenpolgroup
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 2:39 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Dihedral and washout
Ken,
RE-PIET has zero dihedral, and no noticeable washout. The ailerons
are rigged so that when neutral, they each rest about =BD" above the
trailing edge to give some "false" washout. I have no idea if it works,
but she flies quite nicely and stalls EXTREMELY gently with zero
tendency to fall off either way. She's pretty neutral in a turn, but in
a sharpish turn, she will very gently want to tighten it up. Less than
other Piets I've flown, one of which was a bit scary, especially to the
left.
Added some extended "downtubes" on my exhaust today to try to get the
smoke away from the fuse/tail feathers. Got it off the fuse, but still
getting on the underside of the horz stab. Don't know how far down I'd
have to go to make that stop. Guess I'll just keep extending until it
stops and make the decision whether to go with that or just not use
smoke very often and clean it up after each smoking session.
On the ferry flight back to my home base yesterday, just as the
airport hove into view, my engine started to vibrate. I throttled back
and it smoothed out, then the vibration started at the lower rpm. I was
really nervous, thinking my prop was falling off or my engine mount had
broken. Trying to make a nice kosher entrance to the pattern, she
really started to vibrate so I just took her down, sideslipped in and
made a surprisingly good landing on the pavement for a frightened/frozen
aviator with four asphalt landings in the Piet to his credit.
Shut her down, got out and fuel was dripping out of my carb and the
sides were covered with black sooty exhaust. Some foreign object had
jammed the float open and she was funning SUPER rich. Great excuse to
uncowl her today and ck everything now that she's got five ours of
flight time. Checked all the strainers, took the bowl off the carb and
cleared it, checked everything else, ran her up and went for a lovely
fifteen minute flight over my house.
Found one loose prop bolt and the rest definitely needed torque-ing.
DON'T SKIMP ON CHECKING YOUR PROP BOLTS ON WOODEN PROPS REGULARLY AND
OFTEN. I THINK 25 HRS ISN'T ENOUGH, ESPECIALLY WITH A NEW PROP. My
mechanic did it with me and showed me how to properly safety wire the
prop bolts. I must have not done it just right so allow one to back out
as it did.
Everything looked good in there, including the dozen or so un-safetied
hose clamps.
Douwe.
Ps. Does anyone have a good system for using gps when flying and yet
still keeping track of their approximate position on a chart in the case
gps poops?
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Dihedral and washout |
I've never had a battery go bad on a Sectional.
On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 3:46 PM, C N Campbell <cncampbell@windstream.net>wro
te:
> **
> My answer to your PS: Leave the GPS in the hangar and use the chart
> ONLY. I just don't like these new fangled thangs! Chuck
>
> Do not archive
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Douwe Blumberg <douweblumberg@earthlink.net>
> *To:* pietenpolgroup <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, November 09, 2012 2:39 PM
> *Subject:* Pietenpol-List: Dihedral and washout
>
> Ken,****
>
> ** **
>
> RE-PIET has zero dihedral, and no noticeable washout. The ailerons are
> rigged so that when neutral, they each rest about =BD=94 above the traili
ng
> edge to give some =93false=94 washout. I have no idea if it works, but s
he
> flies quite nicely and stalls EXTREMELY gently with zero tendency to fall
> off either way. She=92s pretty neutral in a turn, but in a sharpish turn
,
> she will very gently want to tighten it up. Less than other Piets I=92ve
> flown, one of which was a bit scary, especially to the left=85****
>
> ** **
>
> Added some extended =93downtubes=94 on my exhaust today to try to get the
> smoke away from the fuse/tail feathers. Got it off the fuse, but still
> getting on the underside of the horz stab. Don=92t know how far down I
=92d
> have to go to make that stop. Guess I=92ll just keep extending until it
> stops and make the decision whether to go with that or just not use smoke
> very often and clean it up after each smoking session.****
>
> ** **
>
> On the ferry flight back to my home base yesterday, just as the airport
> hove into view, my engine started to vibrate. I throttled back and it
> smoothed out, then the vibration started at the lower rpm. I was really
> nervous, thinking my prop was falling off or my engine mount had broken.
> Trying to make a nice kosher entrance to the pattern, she really started
to
> vibrate so I just took her down, sideslipped in and made a surprisingly
> good landing on the pavement for a frightened/frozen aviator with four
> asphalt landings in the Piet to his credit.****
>
> ** **
>
> Shut her down, got out and fuel was dripping out of my carb and the sides
> were covered with black sooty exhaust. Some foreign object had jammed th
e
> float open and she was funning SUPER rich. Great excuse to uncowl her
> today and ck everything now that she=92s got five ours of flight time.
> Checked all the strainers, took the bowl off the carb and cleared it,
> checked everything else, ran her up and went for a lovely fifteen minute
> flight over my house.****
>
> ** **
>
> Found one loose prop bolt and the rest definitely needed torque-ing.
> DON=92T SKIMP ON CHECKING YOUR PROP BOLTS ON WOODEN PROPS REGULARLY AND
> OFTEN. I THINK 25 HRS ISN=92T ENOUGH, ESPECIALLY WITH A NEW PROP. My
> mechanic did it with me and showed me how to properly safety wire the pro
p
> bolts. I must have not done it just right so allow one to back out as it
> did.****
>
> ** **
>
> Everything looked good in there, including the dozen or so un-safetied
> hose clamps=85****
>
> ** **
>
> Douwe.****
>
> ** **
>
> Ps. Does anyone have a good system for using gps when flying and yet
> still keeping track of their approximate position on a chart in the case
> gps poops?****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> *
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Dihedral and washout |
I would still vote for carburetor ice.
Gene Rambo
On Nov 9, 2012, at 2:39 PM, "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg@earthlink.net> w
rote:
> Ken,
>
> RE-PIET has zero dihedral, and no noticeable washout. The ailerons are ri
gged so that when neutral, they each rest about =C2=BD=9D above the tr
ailing edge to give some =9Cfalse=9D washout. I have no idea if
it works, but she flies quite nicely and stalls EXTREMELY gently with zero t
endency to fall off either way. She=99s pretty neutral in a turn, but
in a sharpish turn, she will very gently want to tighten it up. Less than o
ther Piets I=99ve flown, one of which was a bit scary, especially to t
he left
>
> Added some extended =9Cdowntubes=9D on my exhaust today to try
to get the smoke away from the fuse/tail feathers. Got it off the fuse, bu
t still getting on the underside of the horz stab. Don=99t know how f
ar down I=99d have to go to make that stop. Guess I=99ll just k
eep extending until it stops and make the decision whether to go with that o
r just not use smoke very often and clean it up after each smoking session.
>
> On the ferry flight back to my home base yesterday, just as the airport ho
ve into view, my engine started to vibrate. I throttled back and it smoothe
d out, then the vibration started at the lower rpm. I was really nervous, t
hinking my prop was falling off or my engine mount had broken. Trying to ma
ke a nice kosher entrance to the pattern, she really started to vibrate so I
just took her down, sideslipped in and made a surprisingly good landing on t
he pavement for a frightened/frozen aviator with four asphalt landings in th
e Piet to his credit.
>
> Shut her down, got out and fuel was dripping out of my carb and the sides w
ere covered with black sooty exhaust. Some foreign object had jammed the fl
oat open and she was funning SUPER rich. Great excuse to uncowl her today a
nd ck everything now that she=99s got five ours of flight time. Check
ed all the strainers, took the bowl off the carb and cleared it, checked eve
rything else, ran her up and went for a lovely fifteen minute flight over my
house.
>
> Found one loose prop bolt and the rest definitely needed torque-ing. DON
=99T SKIMP ON CHECKING YOUR PROP BOLTS ON WOODEN PROPS REGULARLY AND O
FTEN. I THINK 25 HRS ISN=99T ENOUGH, ESPECIALLY WITH A NEW PROP. My m
echanic did it with me and showed me how to properly safety wire the prop bo
lts. I must have not done it just right so allow one to back out as it did.
>
> Everything looked good in there, including the dozen or so un-safetied hos
e clamps
>
> Douwe.
>
> Ps. Does anyone have a good system for using gps when flying and yet stil
l keeping track of their approximate position on a chart in the case gps po
ops?
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Dihedral and washout |
Douwe,
The macho stance is to just fly your Pietenpol with the technology that
Bernard had available - chart and compass. While it can certainly be done
that way (I flew a J-3 Cub from Tennessee to Texas using just that), it is
foolish to turn your back on anything that can make flying safer. GPS is a
wonderful tool for increasing your situational awareness, and therefore
increasing safety. Just don't allow yourself to get too dependent on it -
they can and do fail.
I made a mount for my Garmin GPSMap 196 that attaches to the right upper
longeron so it is out of the way and easy to see. I then use a kneeboard
with a TripTik chart (a series of 5-1/2 x 8-1/2 portions of a sectional
chart with my course printed on them). I can just turn over each page as I
fly onto the next and can keep track of my progress in case the GPS goes
Tango Uniform. I use Aeroplanner software to generate the triptiks, but I
think there are several different companies out there that do the same
thing.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
Where I very nearly wiped out a DiamondStar DA-40 this evening when 5 deer
ran across the runway as we were rolling out after landing. The last one
missed the prop by less than a foot and then went UNDER the right wingtip.
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Douwe
Blumberg
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 2:40 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Dihedral and washout
Douwe.
Ps. Does anyone have a good system for using gps when flying and yet still
keeping track of their approximate position on a chart in the case gps
poops?
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