---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 01/16/13: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:39 AM - Re: Electrical Layout (Jack) 2. 03:51 AM - Re: gas tank material (Michael Perez) 3. 04:40 AM - Re: gas tank material (helspersew@aol.com) 4. 04:43 AM - Re: gas tank material (nightmare) 5. 05:18 AM - Re: gas tank material (pineymb) 6. 05:25 AM - Model A with carb heat box (helspersew@aol.com) 7. 06:41 AM - Re: Model A with carb heat box (Gene Rambo) 8. 07:05 AM - fish scales list (Greg Bacon) 9. 07:17 AM - fuel capacity (Douwe Blumberg) 10. 07:28 AM - Re: Re: gas tank material (Dennis Engelkenjohn) 11. 07:59 AM - Re: gas tank material (nightmare) 12. 08:04 AM - Re: gas tank material (nightmare) 13. 10:18 AM - Re: Re: gas tank material (helspersew@aol.com) 14. 12:55 PM - Re: Electrical Layout (George Abernathy) 15. 01:35 PM - Re: Re: gas tank material (Dennis Engelkenjohn) 16. 05:25 PM - Re: Electrical Layout (Jack) 17. 09:35 PM - Re: Electrical Layout (Peter W Johnson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:39:36 AM PST US From: "Jack" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Electrical Layout George thanks for the info! I googled flashing the field and may leave that to someone that knows more about it.Also when you mention smaller breakers, should the wire size be reduced, I think Bengalis stated that relationship? Jack Textor Des Moines, IA _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Abernathy Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 9:29 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Electrical Layout Hi there Jack, The transponder and encoder can run off the same breaker max 5 amps. The turn and bank plus gauges could be a 5 amp breaker. Check your turn and bank and I expect that it runs on about two amps. Ah a generator. Looks like it is wired correctly. A shield over its output lead would be good also. Shields are a thing known as a "faraday" shield. They usually work best grounded in only one place. The engine block is probably best. If current flows through them they tend to become ground loops. Don't forget to flash your field George _____ From: Jack Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 11:56 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Electrical Layout For those that understand electrical stuff please take a look at the attached sketch of my planned electrical system. I have not included the mags. Please share any flaws or concerns because this is an area I know very little about. Years ago I installed a cigarette lighter in my boat, it only worked when the spot light was on and I burned my nose testing it! Not sure on the ammeter hookup. Also would appreciate input for installing a voltmeter instead of the amp gauge. Thanks! Jack <<...>> Jack Textor Des Moines, IA ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:51:20 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: gas tank material I concur with the TIG welded aluminum. I have the same type tank in the nose... 5052 aluminum, I believe mine is .035" thick, all TIG welded. Michael Perez Pietenpol HINT Videos Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:40:59 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: gas tank material From: helspersew@aol.com This my 2nd tank. I used .050 5052. Great tank but I regret putting the riv ets in the perimeter flanges. I should have just tack-welded to hold it tog ether until ready to final weld. Every welded-over rivet location is a pote ntial leak. I currently have two rivet locations with seeping leaks, (lucki ly they are right on top) so will try to stop by "top-coating" with tank se aler. Dan Helsper Puryear, TN -----Original Message----- From: Michael Perez Sent: Wed, Jan 16, 2013 5:51 am Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: gas tank material I concur with the TIG welded aluminum. I have the same type tank in the nos e... 5052 aluminum, I believe mine is .035" thick, all TIG welded. Michael Perez Pietenpol HINT Videos Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:43:00 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: gas tank material From: "nightmare" Dennis; are you gas welding or tig? -------- Paul Donahue Started 8-3-12 do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392407#392407 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:37 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: gas tank material From: "pineymb" Keep it simple 5052 x .050 tig weld -------- Adrian M Winnipeg, MB Canada Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392412#392412 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00034_578.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00028_406.jpg ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:25:56 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Model A with carb heat box From: helspersew@aol.com Does anyone have data or anecdotal information on how much extra RPM one ge ts by shutting off the "perpetual" carburetor heated air on a model A? Dan Helsper Puryear, TN ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:14 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Model A with carb heat box From: Gene Rambo I know that you shouldn't put any restriction ahead of the carburetor (such a s a filter) unless it has been "pressure balanced". Look at website called " Renner's Corner" Gene On Jan 16, 2013, at 8:25 AM, helspersew@aol.com wrote: > Does anyone have data or anecdotal information on how much extra RPM one g ets by shutting off the "perpetual" carburetor heated air on a model A? > > Dan Helsper > Puryear, TN > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:20 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: fish scales list From: Greg Bacon Gene, Please take me off the list for the fish scales for now. Thanks, -- Greg Bacon Prairie Home, MO NX114D(Mountain Piet) ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:48 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: fuel capacity I too bumped up my fuel capacity when it looked as if CO move MIGHT be in the future. I have about 20 gallons in a bumped out center section tank of aluminum (feeding a C-90 which drinks more). I am well aware that I will rarely fill it all the way up, BUT I do anticipate the occasional time when I want to "bite the bullet" and fly some long legs just to "get there", like going to Brodhead. Also, as Ken mentioned, there are many places in the country where 30 minutes reserve at Piet speeds seems pretty nominal. Another point regarding "the extra weight" of a larger tank. While fabricating my tank, I weighed it with shorter "normal" sides and with the taller sides to allow 20 gallons and the weight difference was minimal. Maybe I'm hauling around an extra pound or two. Definitely a decision based upon your location, trip planning habits, resale plans and. bladder capacity. Douwe Ps. Is Ryan a "pendanterist"??? ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:28:40 AM PST US From: "Dennis Engelkenjohn" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: gas tank material TIG I have a hydrogen torch, but am not real comfortable with the flux. It Kent White's flux that I bought years ago at Osh. Stuff is like muriatic acid in that it will rust anything metal in anywhere near the stuff. Took a couple TIG classes at the local adult education a year or two ago, but will not be able to make welds near as nice as Michael Perez tank, which is why I bought the practice material. Dennis -----Original Message----- From: nightmare Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 6:42 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: gas tank material Dennis; are you gas welding or tig? -------- Paul Donahue Started 8-3-12 do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392407#392407 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:30 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: gas tank material From: "nightmare" me too. been gas welding steel for years with help from Kent White, havent tried the aluminum welding yet but have the flux,video,booklet. let me know how it goes! ill do the same. i may practice a little within next couple of weeks. -------- Paul Donahue Started 8-3-12 do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392433#392433 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:07 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: gas tank material From: "nightmare" sorry, misread your post about you going with the tig. -------- Paul Donahue Started 8-3-12 do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392434#392434 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:18:11 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: gas tank material From: helspersew@aol.com I bought all that Kent White AL welding stuff, torch, flux, everything. Wen t to Oshkosh to see him explain it, watched his videos. For the life of me I could NOT get the hang of it. Then I went out and spent more money to get a TIG. Now I can weld Aluminum. Dan Helsper Puryear, TN -----Original Message----- From: nightmare Sent: Wed, Jan 16, 2013 10:00 am Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: gas tank material om> me too. been gas welding steel for years with help from Kent White, havent tried the aluminum welding yet but have the flux,video,booklet. let me know how i t goes! ill do the same. i may practice a little within next couple of weeks. -------- Paul Donahue Started 8-3-12 do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392433#392433 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:25 PM PST US From: George Abernathy Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Electrical Layout Hello Jack,=0A=0AThe wire sizes are ok. Larger is=C2- better for voltage drop. The main purpose of circuit breakers seems to be protecting the wire. Most aircraft radios and instruments die pretty quietly. =0A=0AThe wire fo r the trim could be larger for ruggedness and=C2- for voltage drop. =0AMo tors pull a lot of current on when they start. Usually about 6 times the ru nning current. That does not mean the circuit breaker or fuse needs to be 6 times the running current. Circuit breakers and fuses are made to support the higher current during motor start.=C2-=C2- =0A=0AWire tends to be s ized to fit the connectors on the various things. For instance the encoder will most likely have a sub =0AD connector.=C2- 22 and 24 gauge=C2- fit nicely in the solder cups or crimp pins. The newer radios have high densit y sub D connectors and a 22 gauge is going to be difficult to fit. For powe r they sometimes supply a special pin that will accept a larger wire. =0A =0APower and ground wires need to be big enough for voltage drop=C2- and still fit in the connectors. The manufacturers of most aircraft stuff are p retty good at recommending the minimum wire sizes and circuit breaker requi rements. One place that can be problems is encoder power. The power switche s in the older transponders weren't strong enough for the solid state encod ers. They had or may still have a heater in them to stabilize the altitude sensors. =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Jack =0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, Janua ry 16, 2013 10:39 PM=0ASubject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Electrical Layout=0A =0A=0AElectrical Layout =0AGeorge thanks for the info! I googled=0Aflashin g the field and may leave that to someone that knows more about it Also=0Awhen you mention smaller breakers, should the wire size be reduced, I think=0ABengalis stated that relationship? =0A=C2-=0AJack Textor=0ADes Moines, IA=0A=C2-=0A=0A________________________________=0A =0AFrom:owner- pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com=0A[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of George Abernathy=0ASent: Tuesday, January 15, 20 13=0A9:29 PM=0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-Li st:=0AElectrical Layout=0A=C2-=0AHi there=0AJack,=0A=0AThe transponder an d encoder can run off the same breaker max 5 amps. The turn=0Aand bank plus gauges could be a 5 amp breaker. Check your turn and bank and I=0Aexpect t hat it runs on about two amps. =0A=0AAh a generator. Looks like it is wired correctly. A shield over its output lead=0Awould be good also. =0A=0AShiel ds are a thing known as a "faraday" shield. They usually work=0Abest ground ed in only one place. The engine block is probably best. If current=0Aflows through them they tend to become ground loops. =0A=0ADon't forget to flash your field=0A=0AGeorge=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=0A____________________________ ____=0A =0AFrom:Jack=0A=0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.co m =0ASent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013=0A11:56 AM=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List :=0AElectrical Layout=0A=C2-=0AFor=0Athosethatunderstandelectricalstuff p lease take a look=0Aat the attached sketch of my planned electrical system. I have not included the=0Amags.Please share any flaws or concernsbecause t his is an area=0AI know very little about. Years ago Iinstalledacigarette =0Alighter in my boat, it only worked when the spot light was on and I burn ed my=0Anose testing it!=C2- Not sure on theammeter hookup. Also=0Awould appreciate input for installing a voltmeter instead of the amp gauge.=0ATha nks!=0AJack=0A<<...>> =0AJack Textor=0ADes Moines, IA=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A =C2-=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List=0Ahttp://forums. ============= ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:35:03 PM PST US From: "Dennis Engelkenjohn" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: gas tank material I bought just the booklet, flux and the lens from him several years ago. He hasn=99t been there the last 2-3yrs though, I heard the demonstrations and sales couldn=99t cover his costs to be there so he could make more money doing custom auto repairs. Joe Maj can explain it over in the EAA gas welding booth and show you how to do it hands on. Its as close to one on one as you can get. Something that Joe will tell you that Kent White doesn=99t is to use hydrogen gas. It burns at a lower temp and you don=99t have to chase the puddle so quickly, there is more time to work it. Far easier for beginners like me. Still tried the TIG at the lincoln booth and it seemed like a piece of cake. Didn=99t realize that they let you try it out with 1/8=9D aluminum which is about the easiest to weld there is. Thinner is way harder. Never the less I will keep practicing until I can weld my own tank. A friend suggested today that I make the top of the tank a hex or octagon and not have to weld up all the relief cuts for the curve. Dennis From: helspersew@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 12:17 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: gas tank material I bought all that Kent White AL welding stuff, torch, flux, everything. Went to Oshkosh to see him explain it, watched his videos. For the life of me I could NOT get the hang of it. Then I went out and spent more money to get a TIG. Now I can weld Aluminum. Dan Helsper Puryear, TN -----Original Message----- From: nightmare Sent: Wed, Jan 16, 2013 10:00 am Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: gas tank material me too. been gas welding steel for years with help from Kent White, havent tried the aluminum welding yet but have the flux,video,booklet. let me know how it goes! ill do the same. i may practice a little within next couple of weeks. -------- Paul Donahue Started 8-3-12 do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392433#392433 " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:25:36 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Electrical Layout From: Jack Good ideas George, thanks. My T&B says 13.75v and .8 A. Also for the voltmet er does it connect between ground and bus bar with no fuse? Thanks for all the help! Sent from my iPad Jack Textor On Jan 16, 2013, at 2:54 PM, George Abernathy wrote: > Hello Jack, > > The wire sizes are ok. Larger is better for voltage drop. The main purpos e of circuit breakers seems to be protecting the wire. Most aircraft radios a nd instruments die pretty quietly. > > The wire for the trim could be larger for ruggedness and for voltage drop . > Motors pull a lot of current on when they start. Usually about 6 times the running current. That does not mean the circuit breaker or fuse needs to be 6 times the running current. Circuit breakers and fuses are made to support the higher current during motor start. > > Wire tends to be sized to fit the connectors on the various things. For in stance the encoder will most likely have a sub > D connector. 22 and 24 gauge fit nicely in the solder cups or crimp pins . The newer radios have high density sub D connectors and a 22 gauge is goin g to be difficult to fit. For power they sometimes supply a special pin that will accept a larger wire. > > Power and ground wires need to be big enough for voltage drop and still f it in the connectors. The manufacturers of most aircraft stuff are pretty go od at recommending the minimum wire sizes and circuit breaker requirements. O ne place that can be problems is encoder power. The power switches in the ol der transponders weren't strong enough for the solid state encoders. They ha d or may still have a heater in them to stabilize the altitude sensors. > > > From: Jack > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 10:39 PM > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Electrical Layout > > George thanks for the info! I googled flashing the field and may leave tha t to someone that knows more about itAlso when you mention smaller b reakers, should the wire size be reduced, I think Bengalis stated that relat ionship? > > Jack Textor > Des Moines, IA > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-li st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Abernathy > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 9:29 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Electrical Layout > > Hi there Jack, > > The transponder and encoder can run off the same breaker max 5 amps. The t urn and bank plus gauges could be a 5 amp breaker. Check your turn and bank a nd I expect that it runs on about two amps. > > Ah a generator. Looks like it is wired correctly. A shield over its output lead would be good also. > > Shields are a thing known as a "faraday" shield. They usually work best gr ounded in only one place. The engine block is probably best. If current flow s through them they tend to become ground loops. > > Don't forget to flash your field > > George > > > From: Jack > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 11:56 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Electrical Layout > > For those that understand electrical stuff please take a look at the attac hed sketch of my planned electrical system. I have not included the mags. Pl ease share any flaws or concerns because this is an area I know very little a bout. Years ago I installed a cigarette lighter in my boat, it only worked w hen the spot light was on and I burned my nose testing it! Not sure on the a mmeter hookup. Also would appreciate input for installing a voltmeter instea d of the amp gauge. > Thanks! > Jack > <<...>> > Jack Textor > Des Moines, IA > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > http://www.matro==================== > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:07 PM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Electrical Layout Jack, Attached is a pdf of my 601XL electricals. I have an O-200 on it so the circuit for your Piet should be similar. If you connect the ammeter as shown, you will not get the very large starter current pushing the needle off the scale. Cheers Peter Wonthaggi Australia http://www.cpc-world.com From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Thursday, 17 January 2013 12:25 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Electrical Layout Good ideas George, thanks. My T&B says 13.75v and .8 A. Also for the voltmeter does it connect between ground and bus bar with no fuse? Thanks for all the help! Sent from my iPad Jack Textor On Jan 16, 2013, at 2:54 PM, George Abernathy wrote: Hello Jack, The wire sizes are ok. Larger is better for voltage drop. The main purpose of circuit breakers seems to be protecting the wire. Most aircraft radios and instruments die pretty quietly. The wire for the trim could be larger for ruggedness and for voltage drop. Motors pull a lot of current on when they start. Usually about 6 times the running current. That does not mean the circuit breaker or fuse needs to be 6 times the running current. Circuit breakers and fuses are made to support the higher current during motor start. Wire tends to be sized to fit the connectors on the various things. For instance the encoder will most likely have a sub D connector. 22 and 24 gauge fit nicely in the solder cups or crimp pins. The newer radios have high density sub D connectors and a 22 gauge is going to be difficult to fit. For power they sometimes supply a special pin that will accept a larger wire. Power and ground wires need to be big enough for voltage drop and still fit in the connectors. The manufacturers of most aircraft stuff are pretty good at recommending the minimum wire sizes and circuit breaker requirements. One place that can be problems is encoder power. The power switches in the older transponders weren't strong enough for the solid state encoders. They had or may still have a heater in them to stabilize the altitude sensors. _____ From: Jack Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 10:39 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Electrical Layout George thanks for the info! I googled flashing the field and may leave that to someone that knows more about itAlso when you mention smaller breakers, should the wire size be reduced, I think Bengalis stated that relationship? Jack Textor Des Moines, IA _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Abernathy Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 9:29 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Electrical Layout Hi there Jack, The transponder and encoder can run off the same breaker max 5 amps. The turn and bank plus gauges could be a 5 amp breaker. Check your turn and bank and I expect that it runs on about two amps. Ah a generator. Looks like it is wired correctly. A shield over its output lead would be good also. Shields are a thing known as a "faraday" shield. They usually work best grounded in only one place. The engine block is probably best. If current flows through them they tend to become ground loops. Don't forget to flash your field George _____ From: Jack Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 11:56 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Electrical Layout For those that understand electrical stuff please take a look at the attached sketch of my planned electrical system. I have not included the mags. Please share any flaws or concerns because this is an area I know very little about. Years ago I installed a cigarette lighter in my boat, it only worked when the spot light was on and I burned my nose testing it! Not sure on the ammeter hookup. Also would appreciate input for installing a voltmeter instead of the amp gauge. Thanks! Jack <<...>> Jack Textor Des Moines, IA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.