---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 01/18/13: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:47 AM - Re: Model A with carb heat box (Dan Yocum) 2. 05:49 AM - Re: Model A with carb heat box (helspersew@aol.com) 3. 06:19 AM - a hardware store steel rant... (Douwe Blumberg) 4. 06:30 AM - Re: a hardware store steel rant... (Gerry Holland) 5. 06:36 AM - using inferior anything or cutting corners----just fly alone then (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]) 6. 06:58 AM - Re: Steel Parts (C N Campbell) 7. 07:11 AM - Re: using inferior anything or cutting corners----just fly alone then (Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB) 8. 09:32 AM - Re: using inferior anything or cutting corners----just fly alone then (C N Campbell) 9. 10:41 AM - Re: using inferior anything or cutting corners----just fly alon (Bill Church) 10. 01:15 PM - Re: a hardware store steel rant... (George Abernathy) 11. 02:00 PM - Re: a hardware store steel rant... (Kip and Beth Gardner) 12. 05:27 PM - Re: a hardware store steel rant... (Dave Millikan) 13. 05:53 PM - Model A with carb heat box (Oscar Zuniga) 14. 09:15 PM - Re: a hardware store steel rant... (tools) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:47:57 AM PST US From: Dan Yocum Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Model A with carb heat box Doesn't the RPM go to zero when you turn off the carb heat on a Model A? :o) Dan -- Dan Yocum yocum137@gmail.com On Jan 16, 2013, at 7:25 AM, helspersew@aol.com wrote: > Does anyone have data or anecdotal information on how much extra RPM one g ets by shutting off the "perpetual" carburetor heated air on a model A? > > Dan Helsper > Puryear, TN > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:49:02 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Model A with carb heat box From: helspersew@aol.com I have a special gauge on my engine that indicates when I can turn off the carb heat.......when the condensation finally dries-up....stops slinging-of f the induction and hitting me in the face! BTW I knew you were still "here " D.Y. I could feel it :O) Dan Helsper Puryear, TN -----Original Message----- From: Dan Yocum Sent: Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:48 am Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Model A with carb heat box Doesn't the RPM go to zero when you turn off the carb heat on a Model A? :o) Dan -- Dan Yocum yocum137@gmail.com On Jan 16, 2013, at 7:25 AM, helspersew@aol.com wrote: Does anyone have data or anecdotal information on how much extra RPM one ge ts by shutting off the "perpetual" carburetor heated air on a model A? Dan Helsper Puryear, TN 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:20 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: a hardware store steel rant... OK, add me to the Pedant-arist list. here goes. PLEASE Do NOT spend all those years building a scratch-built plane that you want to last for a lifetime, fly yourself and others around many thousands of feet above the very hard earth and try to save a VERY few bucks by using steel found at Lowe's, Home Depot, Ace or any other hardware store. Do not do the above and try to save a VERY few bucks by using wood that isn't up to snuff. Do not do the above and try to save a VERY few bucks by using hardware store cable. Or shackles. Or turnbuckles. Do NOT substitute anything that has to do with strength and safety to save a few bucks. We have discussed this many times over the years and the actual savings in buying cheaper metal and wood is insignificant!!!!!!!!!!! Don't do it!!!!!! What in the world is the point!!!!!! Trust me, ALL these decisions take on a WHOLE new meaning when your dreams turn to reality and you're flying a friend's kid and get knocked around in some wicked turbulence.. That hundred buck savings pales in significance REAL QUICK!!!!! IT'S MEANINGLESS!!!!!!! I'm the last guy on earth to swallow that "only aircraft certified" line, BUT use common sense people and don't get so carried away with "Pietenpol scavenger" syndrome and saving a dime here and there that you loose sight of the big picture. This advice is actually worth a lot MORE than my usual $.02 charge. Douwe ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:30:52 AM PST US From: Gerry Holland Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: a hardware store steel rant... HEAR, HEAR!!!!!! In fairness it's not just Pietenpol's. I've been in the company of $100K RV Builders whinging over the price of item at $2.00 that is needed! Thanks Douwe for a fair input. Gerry ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:36:54 AM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: using inferior anything or cutting corners----just fly alone then Great post Douwe. I think it is fine if you want to cut corners on your hardware, glue, materials, and engine rebuild IF you are building a ONE seater but if you even think about giving a ride you're being pretty arrogant and irresponsible to use crappy materials or cut any corners in building whatever homebuilt airplane you're building. Enough bad things can happen even if you use the best of everything....in clear, perfect VFR weather no less. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:54 AM PST US From: "C N Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Steel Parts Harvey, I'm not a purist. I made all my steel parts from 0.090 4130 steel. If you use just one gauge, it is much easier to determine the length bolt to order/use. I didn't use the thin material and form them into aerodynamic shape and then weld -- I used .090 material for all the control horns mainly because I can't weld and the aircraft welder I am using charges $50 per hour. Might be just a bit heavier than the welded ones, but I'm using a larger engine so can stand a little more weight. My $0.02. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harvey Plummer" Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 3:48 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Steel Parts > > > I purchase a set of Pietenpol plans. I thought I would spend some winter > days making steel parts. I noticed that Aircraft Spruce has a Steel Kit > for the Piet. It includes .063", .090" and .125" thick 4130 sheets. When > studying the plans I see parts made of .030", .060", .075" and .090" thick > material. Can all parts be made using the ACS kit? > > Thanks. > > Harv > > -------- > Harv, 485PB > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392523#392523 > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:11:14 AM PST US From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: using inferior anything or cutting corners----just fly alone then I saw a Piet at a little fly in. The guy had cut a lot of corners to build quicker. He had some rough looking welds. He did not round off some of the wood, lots of square corners. He did not sand very much, if at all. He used latex paint.... Very minimalist. BUT he spent the money to get aircraft grade materiels and things like the rough looking welds did look like they were strong and the wood was properly done, just not pretty. He also maintained that the difference in cost between cheap materiels and aircraft grade was just a small percentage of the final cost. His goal was to put togather a good, safe flying Piet and he did not care about looks. He flew it in and out of the fly-in and others said he was a good aviator and had built some other good homebuilts. Blue Skies, Steve D ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: using inferior anything or cutting corners----just fly alone then > RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" < > > Great post Douwe. I think it is fine if you want to cut corners on your hardware, glue, materials, and engine > rebuild IF you are building a ONE seater but if you even think about giving a ride you're being pretty arrogant > and irresponsible to use crappy materials or cut any corners in building whatever homebuilt airplane you're building. > Enough bad things can happen even if you use the best of everything....in clear, perfect VFR weather no less. > > Mike C. > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:32:16 AM PST US From: "C N Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: using inferior anything or cutting corners----just fly alone then Steve, I agree with you. I will not have the prettiest, fanciest, most-sanded, contest-quality, Piet around. It will have pretty and STRONG welds (they are all done by an aircraft welder using his very expensive TIG machine). I did use some Douglas fir and some Poplar (neither bought at ACS) but I was talked into replacing my Douglas fir spars with VERY EXPENSIVE spruce wood from ACS. All my hardware is AN stuff from ACS. It will not be the prettiest airplane around but I won't hesitate to put my grandkids (or great grandkids) in the front seat and ride around in VFR weather. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB" Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 10:10 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: using inferior anything or cutting corners----just fly alone then > > > I saw a Piet at a little fly in. The guy had cut a lot of corners to build > quicker. He had some rough looking welds. He did not round off some of the > wood, lots of square corners. He did not sand very much, if at all. He > used latex paint.... Very minimalist. BUT he spent the money to get > aircraft grade materiels and things like the rough looking welds did look > like they were strong and the wood was properly done, just not pretty. He > also maintained that the difference in cost between cheap materiels and > aircraft grade was just a small percentage of the final cost. > > His goal was to put togather a good, safe flying Piet and he did not care > about looks. He flew it in and out of the fly-in and others said he was a > good aviator and had built some other good homebuilts. > > Blue Skies, > Steve D > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" > > Date: Friday, January 18, 2013 8:44 > Subject: Pietenpol-List: using inferior anything or cutting > corners----just fly alone then > To: "pietenpol-list@matronics.com" > > >> RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" < >> >> Great post Douwe. I think it is fine if you want to cut corners on your >> hardware, glue, materials, and engine >> rebuild IF you are building a ONE seater but if you even think about >> giving a ride you're being pretty arrogant >> and irresponsible to use crappy materials or cut any corners in building >> whatever homebuilt airplane you're building. >> Enough bad things can happen even if you use the best of everything....in >> clear, perfect VFR weather no less. >> >> Mike C. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:41:47 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: using inferior anything or cutting corners----just fly alon From: "Bill Church" Making things "pretty" usually doesn't add to the cost, but it usually does take more time (and patience). As for good wood being expensive, keep in mind that everything is relative. In the overall scheme of things, the cost of wood will not be one of the biggest cost items in the finished aircraft. If you will be renting a hangar to house your finished aircraft, you'll most likely spend more on hangar rent in the first year than you will spend on all of the wood in the whole plane. Because I enjoy doing woodworking, I purchased rough-sawn Sitka planks, and milled my own component parts. My first plank was $8 per board foot, and was used to build my ribs and tail. I had to cut around a few areas that were sub-standard, and some of the wood became kindling. My second plank was much pricier, at $18 per board foot, but the wood was PERFECT. 20 feet long, with grain running straight as an arrow for the entire length. The only waste was the thickness of the saw blade. If I had it to do over again, I would only buy the more expensive wood. The overall cost difference would only be maybe three hundred dollars. As is usually the case, you get what you pay for. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392595#392595 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:15:57 PM PST US From: George Abernathy Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: a hardware store steel rant... Hallelulya, Amen!=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: D ouwe Blumberg =0ATo: pietenpolgroup =0ASent: Saturday, January 19, 2013 1:19 AM=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: a hardware store steel rant...=0A =0A=0A =0AOK, add me to the Pedant-arist list here goes=0A=C2-=0APLEASE Do NOT spend all those years building a scratch-built=0Aplane that you want to las t for a lifetime, fly yourself and others around many=0Athousands of feet a bove the very hard earth and try to save a VERY few bucks by=0Ausing steel found at Lowe=99s, Home Depot, Ace or any other hardware=0Astore.=C2 - =0A=C2-=0ADo not do the above and try to save a VERY few bucks by=0Au sing wood that isn=99t up to snuff.=0A=C2-=0ADo not do the above an d try to save a VERY few bucks by=0Ausing hardware store cable.=C2- Or sh ackles.=C2- Or turnbuckles.=0A=C2-=0ADo NOT substitute anything that ha s to do with strength and=0Asafety to save a few bucks.=C2- We have discu ssed this many times over the=0Ayears and the actual savings in buying chea per metal and wood is insignificant!!!!!!!!!!!=C2- Don=99t do it!!! !!! What in the world is=0Athe point!!!!!!=0A=C2-=0ATrust me, ALL these d ecisions take on a WHOLE new meaning=0Awhen your dreams turn to reality and you=99re flying a friend=99s kid and=0Aget knocked around in s ome wicked turbulence.=C2-=C2- That hundred=0Abuck savings pal es in significance REAL QUICK!!!!!=C2- IT=99S=0AMEANINGLESS!!!!!!! =0A=C2-=0AI=99m the last guy on earth to swallow that =9Conly =0Aaircraft certified=9D line, BUT use common sense people and don =99t get=0Aso carried away with =9CPietenpol scavenger=9D sy ndrome and saving a=0Adime here and there that you loose sight of the big p icture.=0A=C2-=0AThis advice is actually worth a lot MORE than my usual $ === ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:00:27 PM PST US From: Kip and Beth Gardner Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: a hardware store steel rant... I couldn't agree more with Douwe. When I first saw the post about using Lowe's steel, and the justification, I had a shiver - the ghost of The Fisherman is at large. Kip Gardner On Jan 18, 2013, at 4:15 PM, George Abernathy wrote: > Hallelulya, Amen! > > > From: Douwe Blumberg > To: pietenpolgroup > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2013 1:19 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: a hardware store steel rant... > > OK, add me to the Pedant-arist list=85 here goes=85 > > PLEASE Do NOT spend all those years building a scratch-built plane > that you want to last for a lifetime, fly yourself and others around > many thousands of feet above the very hard earth and try to save a > VERY few bucks by using steel found at Lowe=92s, Home Depot, Ace or > any other hardware store. > > Do not do the above and try to save a VERY few bucks by using wood > that isn=92t up to snuff. > > Do not do the above and try to save a VERY few bucks by using > hardware store cable. Or shackles. Or turnbuckles. > > Do NOT substitute anything that has to do with strength and safety > to save a few bucks. We have discussed this many times over the > years and the actual savings in buying cheaper metal and wood is > insignificant!!!!!!!!!!! Don=92t do it!!!!!! What in the world is the > point!!!!!! > > Trust me, ALL these decisions take on a WHOLE new meaning when your > dreams turn to reality and you=92re flying a friend=92s kid and get > knocked around in some wicked turbulence=85. That hundred buck > savings pales in significance REAL QUICK!!!!! IT=92S MEANINGLESS!!!!!!! > > I=92m the last guy on earth to swallow that =93only aircraft certified=94 > line, BUT use common sense people and don=92t get so carried away with > =93Pietenpol scavenger=94 syndrome and saving a dime here and there that > you loose sight of the big picture. > > This advice is actually worth a lot MORE than my usual $.02 charge. > > Douwe > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:27:10 PM PST US From: Dave Millikan Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: a hardware store steel rant... I apologise if 've misled any one. My Piet has 4130 steel tubing=C2- fuselage, wing ftgsnad wing struts I will cease my structrural comments, I have used commonn steel around the landing gear, and in critical areas have doubled the thickness. I have reworked the fuse warren truss=C2-to reflect William Wynnes recommend the wing moving afta couple of inches. For instance , I first opted for piano=C2- higes for the ailerons after further review , the piano hinges would requie addition metal strips because all the screws would be in line. I went to Ace hadware and bot common screen door hinges which spread the lad across the spar--- : I must confess I am an engineer and flew model airplanes with Neil Armstron g Pls don't let me lead you =C2-a stray, ...follow the plans if you are on your own=C2- Ex KB-29P tanker pilot.. still alive Best NX1QZ in Fla From: Kip and Beth Gardner Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: a hardware store steel rant... I couldn't agree more with Douwe. =C2-When I first saw the post about usi ng Lowe's steel, and the justification, I had a shiver - the ghost of The F isherman is at large. Kip Gardner On Jan 18, 2013, at 4:15 PM, George Abernathy wrote: Hallelulya, Amen! From: Douwe Blumberg Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2013 1:19 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: a hardware store steel rant... OK, add me to the Pedant-arist list here goes =C2- PLEASE Do NOT spend all those years building a scratch-built plane that you want to last for a lifetime, fly yourself and others around many thousands of feet above the very hard earth and try to save a VERY few bucks by usin g steel found at Lowe=99s, Home Depot, Ace or any other hardware stor e.=C2- =C2- Do not do the above and try to save a VERY few bucks by using wood that isn =99t up to snuff. =C2- Do not do the above and try to save a VERY few bucks by using hardware stor e cable.=C2- Or shackles.=C2- Or turnbuckles. =C2- Do NOT substitute anything that has to do with strength and safety to save a few bucks.=C2- We have discussed this many times over the years and the actual savings in buying cheaper metal and wood is insignificant!!!!!!!!!! !=C2- Don=99t do it!!!!!! What in the world is the point!!!!!! =C2- Trust me, ALL these decisions take on a WHOLE new meaning when your dreams turn to reality and you=99re flying a friend=99s kid and get kn ocked around in some wicked turbulence.=C2-=C2- That hundred b uck savings pales in significance REAL QUICK!!!!!=C2- IT=99S MEANIN GLESS!!!!!!! =C2- I=99m the last guy on earth to swallow that =9Conly aircraft ce rtified=9D line, BUT use common sense people and don=99t get so carried away with =9CPietenpol scavenger=9D syndrome and savin g a dime here and there that you loose sight of the big picture. =C2- This advice is actually worth a lot MORE than my usual $.02 charge. =C2- Douwe href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/con tribution ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:53:46 PM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: Model A with carb heat box I found out that the standard Aeronca heat muff and exhaust stacks (for the A65 and A75) didn't produce much temperature rise at all when carb heat wa s applied. The air pretty much shoots right past the stacks into the air b ox with the standard setup. I had a flat steel plate added in the "Y" of t he exhaust stacks where the muff goes=2C that forces the air to go around t he pipes and the heated plate=2C and now I get a nice temperature rise and a noticeable RPM drop on application of carb heat. Don't ask me how I know=2C but carb heat is a must on these setups. Oscar ZunigaMedford=2C ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 power ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:15:05 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: a hardware store steel rant... From: "tools" Hey Dave, You contradicted yourself by saying "follow the plans..." in that you're giving structural advice there, which calls for 1020 steel like you mentioned, and you saw how well that went over! :) Don't sweat it, they get a little jumpy around here when you "don't follow the plans", well, except how THEY didn't... We're all selectively compliant. Not many steel fuselages out there and it seems you built your own, lots of guys here would love to know more about that, and they won't assume you're using Lowe's hardware for the motor mounts... Tools PS Thanks for your service. Did you fly control line planes with Armstrong? 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