Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:18 AM - Re: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil and Riblett airfoil (Jack Phillips)
2. 06:48 AM - Re: FUEL TANK (Bill Church)
3. 07:37 AM - Re: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil and Riblett airfoil (Michael Perez)
4. 08:25 AM - Re: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil and Riblett airfoil (Kip and Beth Gardner)
5. 09:25 AM - Re: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil and Riblett airfoil (Dan Yocum)
6. 10:21 AM - Re: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil and Riblett airfoil (Kip and Beth Gardner)
7. 02:03 PM - chicken and ribs (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC])
8. 02:06 PM - vortex generators (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC])
9. 02:28 PM - Each thread hasTWO buttons at the bottom..... (tkreiner)
10. 04:32 PM - Re: vortex generators (Jerry Dotson)
11. 05:08 PM - Re: chicken and ribs (Don Emch)
12. 06:25 PM - Re: Re: chicken and ribs (Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB)
13. 06:54 PM - Re: chicken and ribs (Don Emch)
14. 07:08 PM - Re: Re: Feul Tnak (Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB)
15. 07:12 PM - Re: Re: chicken and ribs (Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB)
16. 07:40 PM - Re: chicken and ribs (Bill Church)
17. 07:43 PM - Re: vortex generators (nightmare)
18. 07:43 PM - Two buttons (Bill Church)
19. 08:10 PM - Re: Two buttons (tkreiner)
20. 08:19 PM - buttons (Bill Church)
21. 08:22 PM - Re: Re: chicken and ribs (G Hansen)
22. 08:30 PM - Re: Re: chicken and ribs (Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB)
Message 1
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Subject: | Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil and Riblett |
airfoil
Very interesting, PF. Please keep us updated. I must admit, I expected to
see some advantage to the Riblett, but there doesn't appear to be much if
any. Perhaps further testing will reveal something. Otherwise it looks
like, once again, that old Pietenpol fellow really knew what he was doing
when he designed this airplane.
I agree with Mike Cuy - looks like this would be an excellent topic for a
forum at Brodhead.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barnwell
Regional Airport
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 2:56 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil and
Riblett airfoil
Fellow Pietenpoler's,
For some time, Don Harper and I had planned to write up the results of a
"head to head" test comparing the Pietenpol airfoil to the Riblett airfoil.
To the best of our knowledge, no one else has conducted the same type
testing.
The write up is self explanatory as to our methods.
Remember, testing is ongoing and will continue. The various numbers you see
now very likely will change as we do further testing. Updated results will
be posted when we have something worthwhile to add..
Our intend, is to share the information with the Piet community, not to
start an argument.
thank you,
P. F. Beck
Don Harper
Barnwell, S. C.
Message 2
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Ted,
Rather than typing everything with Caps Lock on, why not just type everything in
lower case, and not worry about capitalization of letters?
IT'S JUST HARDER TO READ WHEN EVERYTHING IS IN CAPITAL LETTERS, AND IT FEELS AS
THOUGH THE READER IS BEING SHOUTED AT.
see what i mean?
Just a thought.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393082#393082
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Subject: | Re: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil and Riblett |
airfoil
This is good intel. and I am glad that someone has spent the time to do suc
h work for the benefit of all of us.-
-
-I am currently covering and painting my Riblett 612 wings. I had always
planned to use VGs since building the ribs four years ago.- I am very int
erested in what VGs you used and what if any, suggestions you have for thei
r placement and installation process.- What type paint did you use on the
wing and how well do the VGs stick to said paint? Did you roughen up the a
rea of paint where the VGs attached?- Any insight would be greatly apprec
iated as I will be installing the VGs prior to attaching the wing the the A
C.
Michael Perez
Pietenpol HINT Videos
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil and Riblett |
airfoil
PF,
I am very appreciative of what you guys have done with this report.
Real data is always better than opinion when trying to assess things
like performance.
My project has been stalled for several years thanks to a number of
factors, not the least of which being trying to turn an old, worn-out
farm into a working, profitable one (and holding down a part time
teaching job at the same time to pay the bills while we get the farm
on its feet), but I will be moving on to making ribs and wings in the
next couple of years, and I've been contemplating which way to go.
As far as performance goes, I'm a bit surprised to see such minor
differences. I wonder how much the VG's on your wing contribute to
performance? It would be interesting to learn whether or not that's a
significant factor in the performance of your wing. The other
difference I'm thinking about is that, when using a center section
fuel tank, which I'm planning to do, I think the Riblett has more
potential capacity. When using a Corvair, that may be a
consideration, since it has a higher fuel consumption rate than an
A-65. The other issue that your work does not address (and I'm not
sure it can, but maybe you'll look at this later) is the potential
difference in CG envelope on comparable planes.
Kip Gardner
On Jan 25, 2013, at 2:56 PM, Barnwell Regional Airport wrote:
> Fellow Pietenpoler's,
>
> For some time, Don Harper and I had planned to write up the results
> of a "head to head" test comparing the Pietenpol airfoil to the
> Riblett airfoil. To the best of our knowledge, no one else has
> conducted the same type testing.
>
> The write up is self explanatory as to our methods.
>
> Remember, testing is ongoing and will continue. The various numbers
> you see now very likely will change as we do further testing.
> Updated results will be posted when we have something worthwhile to
> add..
>
> Our intend, is to share the information with the Piet community, not
> to start an argument.
>
> thank you,
>
> P. F. Beck
> Don Harper
> Barnwell, S. C.<Comparission test Riblett vs. Piet rib.pdf><Don's
> Panel (Small).JPG><P. F.'s panel (Small).JPG><IMG_1093 (Small).JPG>
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil and Riblett |
airfoil
What about the vortex generators? That's a major difference in my opinion. I
'd like to see the same number and type of vortex generators put on the 612 t
o see if there's a difference.
Also, were the gross weights at take off the same? Maybe I missed that in t
he text.
Great information! Thanks for doing this.
Dan
--
Dan Yocum
yocum137@gmail.com
On Jan 26, 2013, at 6:17 AM, "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Very interesting, PF. Please keep us updated. I must admit, I expected t
o see some advantage to the Riblett, but there doesn=99t appear to be m
uch if any. Perhaps further testing will reveal something. Otherwise it lo
oks like, once again, that old Pietenpol fellow really knew what he was doin
g when he designed this airplane.
>
> I agree with Mike Cuy =93 looks like this would be an excellent topi
c for a forum at Brodhead.
>
> Jack Phillips
> NX899JP
> Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
>
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-li
st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barnwell Regional Airport
> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 2:56 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil and Rib
lett airfoil
>
> Fellow Pietenpoler's,
>
> For some time, Don Harper and I had planned to write up the results of a "
head to head" test comparing the Pietenpol airfoil to the Riblett airfoil. T
o the best of our knowledge, no one else has conducted the same type testing
.
>
> The write up is self explanatory as to our methods.
>
> Remember, testing is ongoing and will continue. The various numbers you s
ee now very likely will change as we do further testing. Updated results wi
ll be posted when we have something worthwhile to add..
>
> Our intend, is to share the information with the Piet community, not to st
art an argument.
>
> thank you,
>
> P. F. Beck
> Don Harper
> Barnwell, S. C.
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil and Riblett |
airfoil
Dan,
that was part of my question. PF's wing (original Pietenpol) was the
one with V.G.'s. I would think that would substantively change
performance & I would like to see 2 additional 'experiments 9although
PF says he's leaving his VG's on, so one experiment would have to be
with another, comparable plane). First, a comparison of Don's plane
to a plane with a 'clean' Pietenpol airfoil, and secondly, as you
suggest, a comparison of PF's plane with Don's after putting VG's on
Don's wing.
It appeared from what PF wrote that they made a good effort to make
sure that takeoff weights were as close to the same as practical.
Kip Gardner
On Jan 26, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Dan Yocum wrote:
> What about the vortex generators? That's a major difference in my
> opinion. I'd like to see the same number and type of vortex
> generators put on the 612 to see if there's a difference.
>
> Also, were the gross weights at take off the same? Maybe I missed
> that in the text.
>
> Great information! Thanks for doing this.
>
> Dan
>
>
> --
> Dan Yocum
> yocum137@gmail.com
>
> On Jan 26, 2013, at 6:17 AM, "Jack Phillips"
> <pietflyr@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>> Very interesting, PF. Please keep us updated. I must admit, I
>> expected to see some advantage to the Riblett, but there doesn=92t
>> appear to be much if any. Perhaps further testing will reveal
>> something. Otherwise it looks like, once again, that old Pietenpol
>> fellow really knew what he was doing when he designed this airplane.
>>
>> I agree with Mike Cuy ' looks like this would be an excellent topic
>> for a forum at Brodhead.
>>
>> Jack Phillips
>> NX899JP
>> Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
>>
>> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
>> ] On Behalf Of Barnwell Regional Airport
>> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 2:56 PM
>> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil
>> and Riblett airfoil
>>
>> Fellow Pietenpoler's,
>>
>> For some time, Don Harper and I had planned to write up the results
>> of a "head to head" test comparing the Pietenpol airfoil to the
>> Riblett airfoil. To the best of our knowledge, no one else has
>> conducted the same type testing.
>>
>> The write up is self explanatory as to our methods.
>>
>> Remember, testing is ongoing and will continue. The various
>> numbers you see now very likely will change as we do further
>> testing. Updated results will be posted when we have something
>> worthwhile to add..
>>
>> Our intend, is to share the information with the Piet community,
>> not to start an argument.
>>
>> thank you,
>>
>> P. F. Beck
>> Don Harper
>> Barnwell, S. C.
>>
>>
>> ========================
>> >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>> ========================
>> cs.com
>> ========================
>> matronics.com/contribution
>> ========================
>>
>
>
Message 7
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Subject: | chicken and ribs |
I don't know about you guys but I was astounded with how incredibly well my Piet
would climb when the engine was new for
the first couple of years. Incredible performer really on only a 65 horse engine
and the Piet airfoil. I'm really glad to see this
news from PF develop so future builders can have a better set of knowledge when
choosing which wing they want to use.
I know one thing, keep the empty weight in the 630-660 range and you'll have a
good performer with a fresh 65 Continental.
Mike C.
Message 8
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Subject: | vortex generators |
Dan Yocum brings up the biggest point of all about the vortex generators. I've
heard so many good things about them
that if I could get over the vanity of how they look I might actually install them.
Mike C.
Message 9
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Subject: | Each thread hasTWO buttons at the bottom..... |
S, when you hit the one on the left, you leave the thread, along with a large group
of us who are scratching our heads wondering what this "new post" means.
The button to the right, however, allows you to reply, which maintains the integrity
- so to speak- of the original thread.
If your intent is to form a new thread, which is great, by all means do so, but
it would be nicer to the vast majority of us if your REPLIES to a thread were
done via the Reply button.
Just sayin'
--------
Tom Kreiner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393094#393094
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Subject: | Re: vortex generators |
Mikee I can't get over the vanity of how they look. I put them on my brother's
Skyranger for him. He says not worth the money on it. I can't tell any difference
at all.
--------
Jerry Dotson
First flight June 16,2012
Started building July, 2009
Lycoming O-235 C2C
Jay Anderson CloudCars prop 76 X 44
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393100#393100
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Subject: | Re: chicken and ribs |
Mike,
I couldn't agree more. The key to a good performing Piet is the old saying "simplicate
and add lightness". The Piet is very affected by excess weight. Not
only does extra weight hurt the climb, it also makes it more sluggish in the
air at cruise speeds. It also raises the landing speed, which creates more stress
on the gear because it is going faster with more weight. The airplane was
designed to be simple and light. If you are still building, try really hard
to resist the urge to add this and that. Try to keep it the simple and basic
machine it was meant to be. Okay.... I'll quit now. :-)
Don Emch
NX899DE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393101#393101
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Subject: | Re: chicken and ribs |
Don, Sorry but the term in "Simplificate and add lightness."
Steve "POEM associate member" D
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Emch <EmchAir@aol.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: chicken and ribs
>
> Mike,
>
> I couldn't agree more. The key to a good performing Piet is the old saying "simplicate
and add lightness". The Piet is very affected
> by excess weight. Not only does extra weight hurt the climb, it
> also makes it more sluggish in the air at cruise speeds. It also
> raises the landing speed, which creates more stress on the gear
> because it is going faster with more weight. The airplane was
> designed to be simple and light. If you are still building, try
> really hard to resist the urge to add this and that. Try to keep
> it the simple and basic machine it was meant to be. Okay.... I'll
> quit now. :-)
>
> Don Emch
> NX899DE
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393101#393101
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: chicken and ribs |
Thanks Steve. Didn't know there was such a word. I was going by the official
use of "simplicate" in the old Buckeye Pietenpol Association Newsletter. :-)
Don Emch
NX899DE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393104#393104
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|
Studies have shown that we do a much more efficient job reading lower case letters
THAN ALL CAPS for extended reading. All Caps can be clearer if RESTRICTED
to short segments. nOTE hOW tHE nEXT tO sECTIONS rEAD:
WE CULOD SRACBMLE THE WRODS IN WTEHAVER FORM WE WSIH. AS LNOG AS WE AWLYAS MIATIANN
THE ODRER OF THE FRIST AND LSAT LTTEER THE TEXT WLIL SLTIL MKAE SNESE.
We culod sracbmle the wrods in wtehaver form we wsih. As lnog as we awlyas miatiann
the odrer of the frist and lsat ltteer the txet wlil sltil mkae snese.
with lower case letters we are able to look through the words and pick out the
letters that stick up. We actually can read text that is quite scrambled as long
as all the letters are there.
ARMY ORDERS are still written in all caps. The root reason was to simplificate
for the teletype. A much simpler system was required if you only had 26 letters
(one case) plus 10 numbers. With both cases it was 52 letters plus 10 characters.
No need to do it that way but the Army Standard is still to write major
Orders in ALL CAPS. Hard to read.
I would write your operations manual with both and do your placards in ALL CAPS.
BLUE SKIES
steve d
Blue Skies,
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: FUEL TANK
>
> Ted,
> Rather than typing everything with Caps Lock on, why not just type everything
in lower case, and not worry about capitalization of letters?
>
> IT'S JUST HARDER TO READ WHEN EVERYTHING IS IN CAPITAL LETTERS, AND IT FEELS
AS THOUGH THE READER IS BEING SHOUTED AT.
>
> see what i mean?
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Bill C.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393082#393082
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: chicken and ribs |
I am also resurrecting YE OLDE TEXIAN WORD Arriven.
For example a text could read "Flight was great, we have arriven at Broadhead."
Blue Skies,
Steve D
Founding member of the Society to stamp out and abolish redundant redundancies,
Association.
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Emch <EmchAir@aol.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: chicken and ribs
>
> Thanks Steve. Didn't know there was such a word. I was going by the official
use of "simplicate" in the old Buckeye Pietenpol
> Association Newsletter. :-)
>
> Don Emch
> NX899DE
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393104#393104
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: chicken and ribs |
The quote that I've seen is "Simplicate and add lightness", and is attributed to
William Stout, designer of the Ford Trimotor.
>From Wikipedia (so it must be true :) ):
Stout is remembered for his Farberistic engineering credo, "Simplicate and add
more lightness." This would later become best known as the adopted maxim of Colin
Chapman of Lotus Cars. It actually originated with Stout's designer Gordon
Hooton.
In the spirit of the quote, "simplicate" makes more sense than "simplificate",
if for no reason other than it has one syllable less.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393107#393107
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Subject: | Re: vortex generators |
Hey guys; i got a ride from Mr. Beck at the last CC ( one of the most gracious
guys you'll ever meet). i did inquire about his vortex generators and he did say
how they allowed a slightly steeper deck angle on climb out.
Mr. Beck, maybe you could swap that "Johnson" type airspeed indicator between
the two birds to get 100 % accuracy when comparing numbers.
Here us a link of a vortex generator manufacturer who gives a good explanation
of benefits, along with testimonials. they're only about a hundred bucks.
i put them on my hang glider and noticed a small difference. the cubs that ive
flown with them realized an approximate 4 mph difference in stall speed. you
could also put some just near your tips, or more near your tips to give better
aileron control during a stall.
another benefit of that Riblett wing for those contemplating, is that you can
build just one large center section fuel tank vs two tanks. Taller wing and
all.
To sum up, difficult to compare both those planes unless you could verify your
climbing, stalling... with confirmed identical airspeed indicators.
Thanks again Mr Beck ! Paul
--------
Paul Donahue
Started 8-3-12
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
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Tom,
good point. :)
Read this topic online here:
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NOOOOOOOOOO!
Not like this!
Hit the OTHER Button!
--------
Tom Kreiner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393112#393112
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Okay. I get it.
:)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393113#393113
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Subject: | Re: chicken and ribs |
I have a copy of "The Speed Seekers" by Thomas G. Foxworth . On Page 83
there is a bit on William B. Stout, designer of the Ford Tri-Motor
transports. I quote exactly: "His lifelong doctrine was 'simplicate and add
lightness.'" So we can assume that he coined the expression, and it
certainly holds true even today.
Cheers,
Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN in chilly, snowy Alberta, Canada)
-----Original Message-----
From: Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: chicken and ribs
<steven.d.dortch@us.army.mil>
Don, Sorry but the term in "Simplificate and add lightness."
Steve "POEM associate member" D
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Emch <EmchAir@aol.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: chicken and ribs
>
> Mike,
>
> I couldn't agree more. The key to a good performing Piet is the old
> saying "simplicate and add lightness". The Piet is very affected
> by excess weight. Not only does extra weight hurt the climb, it
> also makes it more sluggish in the air at cruise speeds. It also
> raises the landing speed, which creates more stress on the gear
> because it is going faster with more weight. The airplane was
> designed to be simple and light. If you are still building, try
> really hard to resist the urge to add this and that. Try to keep
> it the simple and basic machine it was meant to be. Okay.... I'll
> quit now. :-)
>
> Don Emch
> NX899DE
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393101#393101
>
>
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Subject: | Re: chicken and ribs |
Irregardless Bill, I will Endeavor to persevere in pushing my spelling. I will
pursue it ;until it has reached leveliddity with the other word in use.
One of my favorite terms in aviation is "Cheap, fast, or efficient! pick two!"
That points to the "envelope" and the only way to truly expand the envelope is
to put money in it.
Blue "Simplified" Skies,
Steve D
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: chicken and ribs
>
> The quote that I've seen is "Simplicate and add lightness", and is attributed
to William Stout, designer of the Ford Trimotor.
>
> >From Wikipedia (so it must be true :) ):
>
> Stout is remembered for his Farberistic engineering credo, "Simplicate and add
more lightness." This would later become best known as the adopted
> maxim of Colin Chapman of Lotus Cars. It actually originated with
> Stout's designer Gordon Hooton.
>
> In the spirit of the quote, "simplicate" makes more sense than
> "simplificate", if for no reason other than it has one syllable less.
>
> Bill C.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393107#393107
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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