---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 01/26/13: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:18 AM - Re: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil and Riblett airfoil (Jack Phillips) 2. 06:48 AM - Re: FUEL TANK (Bill Church) 3. 07:37 AM - Re: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil and Riblett airfoil (Michael Perez) 4. 08:25 AM - Re: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil and Riblett airfoil (Kip and Beth Gardner) 5. 09:25 AM - Re: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil and Riblett airfoil (Dan Yocum) 6. 10:21 AM - Re: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil and Riblett airfoil (Kip and Beth Gardner) 7. 02:03 PM - chicken and ribs (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]) 8. 02:06 PM - vortex generators (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]) 9. 02:28 PM - Each thread hasTWO buttons at the bottom..... (tkreiner) 10. 04:32 PM - Re: vortex generators (Jerry Dotson) 11. 05:08 PM - Re: chicken and ribs (Don Emch) 12. 06:25 PM - Re: Re: chicken and ribs (Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB) 13. 06:54 PM - Re: chicken and ribs (Don Emch) 14. 07:08 PM - Re: Re: Feul Tnak (Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB) 15. 07:12 PM - Re: Re: chicken and ribs (Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB) 16. 07:40 PM - Re: chicken and ribs (Bill Church) 17. 07:43 PM - Re: vortex generators (nightmare) 18. 07:43 PM - Two buttons (Bill Church) 19. 08:10 PM - Re: Two buttons (tkreiner) 20. 08:19 PM - buttons (Bill Church) 21. 08:22 PM - Re: Re: chicken and ribs (G Hansen) 22. 08:30 PM - Re: Re: chicken and ribs (Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:18:39 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil and Riblett airfoil Very interesting, PF. Please keep us updated. I must admit, I expected to see some advantage to the Riblett, but there doesn't appear to be much if any. Perhaps further testing will reveal something. Otherwise it looks like, once again, that old Pietenpol fellow really knew what he was doing when he designed this airplane. I agree with Mike Cuy - looks like this would be an excellent topic for a forum at Brodhead. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barnwell Regional Airport Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 2:56 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil and Riblett airfoil Fellow Pietenpoler's, For some time, Don Harper and I had planned to write up the results of a "head to head" test comparing the Pietenpol airfoil to the Riblett airfoil. To the best of our knowledge, no one else has conducted the same type testing. The write up is self explanatory as to our methods. Remember, testing is ongoing and will continue. The various numbers you see now very likely will change as we do further testing. Updated results will be posted when we have something worthwhile to add.. Our intend, is to share the information with the Piet community, not to start an argument. thank you, P. F. Beck Don Harper Barnwell, S. C. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:28 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: FUEL TANK From: "Bill Church" Ted, Rather than typing everything with Caps Lock on, why not just type everything in lower case, and not worry about capitalization of letters? IT'S JUST HARDER TO READ WHEN EVERYTHING IS IN CAPITAL LETTERS, AND IT FEELS AS THOUGH THE READER IS BEING SHOUTED AT. see what i mean? Just a thought. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393082#393082 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:56 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil and Riblett airfoil This is good intel. and I am glad that someone has spent the time to do suc h work for the benefit of all of us.- - -I am currently covering and painting my Riblett 612 wings. I had always planned to use VGs since building the ribs four years ago.- I am very int erested in what VGs you used and what if any, suggestions you have for thei r placement and installation process.- What type paint did you use on the wing and how well do the VGs stick to said paint? Did you roughen up the a rea of paint where the VGs attached?- Any insight would be greatly apprec iated as I will be installing the VGs prior to attaching the wing the the A C. Michael Perez Pietenpol HINT Videos Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:03 AM PST US From: Kip and Beth Gardner Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil and Riblett airfoil PF, I am very appreciative of what you guys have done with this report. Real data is always better than opinion when trying to assess things like performance. My project has been stalled for several years thanks to a number of factors, not the least of which being trying to turn an old, worn-out farm into a working, profitable one (and holding down a part time teaching job at the same time to pay the bills while we get the farm on its feet), but I will be moving on to making ribs and wings in the next couple of years, and I've been contemplating which way to go. As far as performance goes, I'm a bit surprised to see such minor differences. I wonder how much the VG's on your wing contribute to performance? It would be interesting to learn whether or not that's a significant factor in the performance of your wing. The other difference I'm thinking about is that, when using a center section fuel tank, which I'm planning to do, I think the Riblett has more potential capacity. When using a Corvair, that may be a consideration, since it has a higher fuel consumption rate than an A-65. The other issue that your work does not address (and I'm not sure it can, but maybe you'll look at this later) is the potential difference in CG envelope on comparable planes. Kip Gardner On Jan 25, 2013, at 2:56 PM, Barnwell Regional Airport wrote: > Fellow Pietenpoler's, > > For some time, Don Harper and I had planned to write up the results > of a "head to head" test comparing the Pietenpol airfoil to the > Riblett airfoil. To the best of our knowledge, no one else has > conducted the same type testing. > > The write up is self explanatory as to our methods. > > Remember, testing is ongoing and will continue. The various numbers > you see now very likely will change as we do further testing. > Updated results will be posted when we have something worthwhile to > add.. > > Our intend, is to share the information with the Piet community, not > to start an argument. > > thank you, > > P. F. Beck > Don Harper > Barnwell, S. C. Panel (Small).JPG> ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:25:35 AM PST US From: Dan Yocum Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil and Riblett airfoil What about the vortex generators? That's a major difference in my opinion. I 'd like to see the same number and type of vortex generators put on the 612 t o see if there's a difference. Also, were the gross weights at take off the same? Maybe I missed that in t he text. Great information! Thanks for doing this. Dan -- Dan Yocum yocum137@gmail.com On Jan 26, 2013, at 6:17 AM, "Jack Phillips" wrote: > Very interesting, PF. Please keep us updated. I must admit, I expected t o see some advantage to the Riblett, but there doesn=99t appear to be m uch if any. Perhaps further testing will reveal something. Otherwise it lo oks like, once again, that old Pietenpol fellow really knew what he was doin g when he designed this airplane. > > I agree with Mike Cuy =93 looks like this would be an excellent topi c for a forum at Brodhead. > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-li st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barnwell Regional Airport > Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 2:56 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil and Rib lett airfoil > > Fellow Pietenpoler's, > > For some time, Don Harper and I had planned to write up the results of a " head to head" test comparing the Pietenpol airfoil to the Riblett airfoil. T o the best of our knowledge, no one else has conducted the same type testing . > > The write up is self explanatory as to our methods. > > Remember, testing is ongoing and will continue. The various numbers you s ee now very likely will change as we do further testing. Updated results wi ll be posted when we have something worthwhile to add.. > > Our intend, is to share the information with the Piet community, not to st art an argument. > > thank you, > > P. F. Beck > Don Harper > Barnwell, S. C. > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:21:08 AM PST US From: Kip and Beth Gardner Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil and Riblett airfoil Dan, that was part of my question. PF's wing (original Pietenpol) was the one with V.G.'s. I would think that would substantively change performance & I would like to see 2 additional 'experiments 9although PF says he's leaving his VG's on, so one experiment would have to be with another, comparable plane). First, a comparison of Don's plane to a plane with a 'clean' Pietenpol airfoil, and secondly, as you suggest, a comparison of PF's plane with Don's after putting VG's on Don's wing. It appeared from what PF wrote that they made a good effort to make sure that takeoff weights were as close to the same as practical. Kip Gardner On Jan 26, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Dan Yocum wrote: > What about the vortex generators? That's a major difference in my > opinion. I'd like to see the same number and type of vortex > generators put on the 612 to see if there's a difference. > > Also, were the gross weights at take off the same? Maybe I missed > that in the text. > > Great information! Thanks for doing this. > > Dan > > > -- > Dan Yocum > yocum137@gmail.com > > On Jan 26, 2013, at 6:17 AM, "Jack Phillips" > wrote: > >> Very interesting, PF. Please keep us updated. I must admit, I >> expected to see some advantage to the Riblett, but there doesn=92t >> appear to be much if any. Perhaps further testing will reveal >> something. Otherwise it looks like, once again, that old Pietenpol >> fellow really knew what he was doing when he designed this airplane. >> >> I agree with Mike Cuy ' looks like this would be an excellent topic >> for a forum at Brodhead. >> >> Jack Phillips >> NX899JP >> Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia >> >> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >> ] On Behalf Of Barnwell Regional Airport >> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 2:56 PM >> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil >> and Riblett airfoil >> >> Fellow Pietenpoler's, >> >> For some time, Don Harper and I had planned to write up the results >> of a "head to head" test comparing the Pietenpol airfoil to the >> Riblett airfoil. To the best of our knowledge, no one else has >> conducted the same type testing. >> >> The write up is self explanatory as to our methods. >> >> Remember, testing is ongoing and will continue. The various >> numbers you see now very likely will change as we do further >> testing. Updated results will be posted when we have something >> worthwhile to add.. >> >> Our intend, is to share the information with the Piet community, >> not to start an argument. >> >> thank you, >> >> P. F. Beck >> Don Harper >> Barnwell, S. C. >> >> >> ======================== >> >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> ======================== >> cs.com >> ======================== >> matronics.com/contribution >> ======================== >> > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:03:57 PM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: chicken and ribs I don't know about you guys but I was astounded with how incredibly well my Piet would climb when the engine was new for the first couple of years. Incredible performer really on only a 65 horse engine and the Piet airfoil. I'm really glad to see this news from PF develop so future builders can have a better set of knowledge when choosing which wing they want to use. I know one thing, keep the empty weight in the 630-660 range and you'll have a good performer with a fresh 65 Continental. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:06:51 PM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: vortex generators Dan Yocum brings up the biggest point of all about the vortex generators. I've heard so many good things about them that if I could get over the vanity of how they look I might actually install them. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:28:14 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Each thread hasTWO buttons at the bottom..... From: "tkreiner" S, when you hit the one on the left, you leave the thread, along with a large group of us who are scratching our heads wondering what this "new post" means. The button to the right, however, allows you to reply, which maintains the integrity - so to speak- of the original thread. If your intent is to form a new thread, which is great, by all means do so, but it would be nicer to the vast majority of us if your REPLIES to a thread were done via the Reply button. Just sayin' -------- Tom Kreiner Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393094#393094 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:32:55 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: vortex generators From: "Jerry Dotson" Mikee I can't get over the vanity of how they look. I put them on my brother's Skyranger for him. He says not worth the money on it. I can't tell any difference at all. -------- Jerry Dotson First flight June 16,2012 Started building July, 2009 Lycoming O-235 C2C Jay Anderson CloudCars prop 76 X 44 do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393100#393100 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:33 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: chicken and ribs From: "Don Emch" Mike, I couldn't agree more. The key to a good performing Piet is the old saying "simplicate and add lightness". The Piet is very affected by excess weight. Not only does extra weight hurt the climb, it also makes it more sluggish in the air at cruise speeds. It also raises the landing speed, which creates more stress on the gear because it is going faster with more weight. The airplane was designed to be simple and light. If you are still building, try really hard to resist the urge to add this and that. Try to keep it the simple and basic machine it was meant to be. Okay.... I'll quit now. :-) Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393101#393101 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:25:54 PM PST US From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: chicken and ribs Don, Sorry but the term in "Simplificate and add lightness." Steve "POEM associate member" D ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Emch Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: chicken and ribs > > Mike, > > I couldn't agree more. The key to a good performing Piet is the old saying "simplicate and add lightness". The Piet is very affected > by excess weight. Not only does extra weight hurt the climb, it > also makes it more sluggish in the air at cruise speeds. It also > raises the landing speed, which creates more stress on the gear > because it is going faster with more weight. The airplane was > designed to be simple and light. If you are still building, try > really hard to resist the urge to add this and that. Try to keep > it the simple and basic machine it was meant to be. Okay.... I'll > quit now. :-) > > Don Emch > NX899DE > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393101#393101 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:54:14 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: chicken and ribs From: "Don Emch" Thanks Steve. Didn't know there was such a word. I was going by the official use of "simplicate" in the old Buckeye Pietenpol Association Newsletter. :-) Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393104#393104 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:11 PM PST US From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Feul Tnak Studies have shown that we do a much more efficient job reading lower case letters THAN ALL CAPS for extended reading. All Caps can be clearer if RESTRICTED to short segments. nOTE hOW tHE nEXT tO sECTIONS rEAD: WE CULOD SRACBMLE THE WRODS IN WTEHAVER FORM WE WSIH. AS LNOG AS WE AWLYAS MIATIANN THE ODRER OF THE FRIST AND LSAT LTTEER THE TEXT WLIL SLTIL MKAE SNESE. We culod sracbmle the wrods in wtehaver form we wsih. As lnog as we awlyas miatiann the odrer of the frist and lsat ltteer the txet wlil sltil mkae snese. with lower case letters we are able to look through the words and pick out the letters that stick up. We actually can read text that is quite scrambled as long as all the letters are there. ARMY ORDERS are still written in all caps. The root reason was to simplificate for the teletype. A much simpler system was required if you only had 26 letters (one case) plus 10 numbers. With both cases it was 52 letters plus 10 characters. No need to do it that way but the Army Standard is still to write major Orders in ALL CAPS. Hard to read. I would write your operations manual with both and do your placards in ALL CAPS. BLUE SKIES steve d Blue Skies, ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Church Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: FUEL TANK > > Ted, > Rather than typing everything with Caps Lock on, why not just type everything in lower case, and not worry about capitalization of letters? > > IT'S JUST HARDER TO READ WHEN EVERYTHING IS IN CAPITAL LETTERS, AND IT FEELS AS THOUGH THE READER IS BEING SHOUTED AT. > > see what i mean? > > Just a thought. > > Bill C. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393082#393082 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:07 PM PST US From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: chicken and ribs I am also resurrecting YE OLDE TEXIAN WORD Arriven. For example a text could read "Flight was great, we have arriven at Broadhead." Blue Skies, Steve D Founding member of the Society to stamp out and abolish redundant redundancies, Association. ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Emch Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: chicken and ribs > > Thanks Steve. Didn't know there was such a word. I was going by the official use of "simplicate" in the old Buckeye Pietenpol > Association Newsletter. :-) > > Don Emch > NX899DE > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393104#393104 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:52 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: chicken and ribs From: "Bill Church" The quote that I've seen is "Simplicate and add lightness", and is attributed to William Stout, designer of the Ford Trimotor. >From Wikipedia (so it must be true :) ): Stout is remembered for his Farberistic engineering credo, "Simplicate and add more lightness." This would later become best known as the adopted maxim of Colin Chapman of Lotus Cars. It actually originated with Stout's designer Gordon Hooton. In the spirit of the quote, "simplicate" makes more sense than "simplificate", if for no reason other than it has one syllable less. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393107#393107 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:18 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: vortex generators From: "nightmare" Hey guys; i got a ride from Mr. Beck at the last CC ( one of the most gracious guys you'll ever meet). i did inquire about his vortex generators and he did say how they allowed a slightly steeper deck angle on climb out. Mr. Beck, maybe you could swap that "Johnson" type airspeed indicator between the two birds to get 100 % accuracy when comparing numbers. Here us a link of a vortex generator manufacturer who gives a good explanation of benefits, along with testimonials. they're only about a hundred bucks. i put them on my hang glider and noticed a small difference. the cubs that ive flown with them realized an approximate 4 mph difference in stall speed. you could also put some just near your tips, or more near your tips to give better aileron control during a stall. another benefit of that Riblett wing for those contemplating, is that you can build just one large center section fuel tank vs two tanks. Taller wing and all. To sum up, difficult to compare both those planes unless you could verify your climbing, stalling... with confirmed identical airspeed indicators. Thanks again Mr Beck ! Paul -------- Paul Donahue Started 8-3-12 do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393108#393108 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:49 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Two buttons From: "Bill Church" Tom, good point. :) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393109#393109 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:04 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Two buttons From: "tkreiner" NOOOOOOOOOO! Not like this! Hit the OTHER Button! -------- Tom Kreiner Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393112#393112 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:11 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: buttons From: "Bill Church" Okay. I get it. :) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393113#393113 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:13 PM PST US From: "G Hansen" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: chicken and ribs I have a copy of "The Speed Seekers" by Thomas G. Foxworth . On Page 83 there is a bit on William B. Stout, designer of the Ford Tri-Motor transports. I quote exactly: "His lifelong doctrine was 'simplicate and add lightness.'" So we can assume that he coined the expression, and it certainly holds true even today. Cheers, Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN in chilly, snowy Alberta, Canada) -----Original Message----- From: Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 7:25 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: chicken and ribs Don, Sorry but the term in "Simplificate and add lightness." Steve "POEM associate member" D ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Emch Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: chicken and ribs > > Mike, > > I couldn't agree more. The key to a good performing Piet is the old > saying "simplicate and add lightness". The Piet is very affected > by excess weight. Not only does extra weight hurt the climb, it > also makes it more sluggish in the air at cruise speeds. It also > raises the landing speed, which creates more stress on the gear > because it is going faster with more weight. The airplane was > designed to be simple and light. If you are still building, try > really hard to resist the urge to add this and that. Try to keep > it the simple and basic machine it was meant to be. Okay.... I'll > quit now. :-) > > Don Emch > NX899DE > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393101#393101 > > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:30:37 PM PST US From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: chicken and ribs Irregardless Bill, I will Endeavor to persevere in pushing my spelling. I will pursue it ;until it has reached leveliddity with the other word in use. One of my favorite terms in aviation is "Cheap, fast, or efficient! pick two!" That points to the "envelope" and the only way to truly expand the envelope is to put money in it. Blue "Simplified" Skies, Steve D ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Church Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: chicken and ribs > > The quote that I've seen is "Simplicate and add lightness", and is attributed to William Stout, designer of the Ford Trimotor. > > >From Wikipedia (so it must be true :) ): > > Stout is remembered for his Farberistic engineering credo, "Simplicate and add more lightness." This would later become best known as the adopted > maxim of Colin Chapman of Lotus Cars. It actually originated with > Stout's designer Gordon Hooton. > > In the spirit of the quote, "simplicate" makes more sense than > "simplificate", if for no reason other than it has one syllable less. > > Bill C. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393107#393107 > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.