---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 02/01/13: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:25 AM - Re: Re: Jack Reber (C N Campbell) 2. 08:03 AM - Re: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil and Riblett airfoi (jarheadpilot82) 3. 12:07 PM - Re: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil and Riblett airfoi (Bill Church) 4. 01:01 PM - Pietenpol and Riblett performance comparisons (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]) 5. 02:22 PM - Re: Pietenpol and Riblett performance comparisons (tkreiner) 6. 02:42 PM - Re: Re: Pietenpol and Riblett performance comparisons (Gary Boothe) 7. 03:42 PM - Re: Pietenpol and Riblett performance comparisons (Bill Church) 8. 03:48 PM - Re: Re: Pietenpol and Riblett performance comparisons (Scott Knowlton) 9. 04:19 PM - Re: Re: Pietenpol and Riblett performance comparisons (Peter W Johnson) 10. 04:52 PM - Toe brake pedal location (skipgadd@earthlink.net) 11. 11:01 PM - Official Pietenpol-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 12. 11:08 PM - Official Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:25:47 AM PST US From: "C N Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jack Reber Oscar, do you have a picture of your pitot tube mounting arrangement? I would love to see it if you do. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "taildrags" Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 10:54 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jack Reber > > John: it is hard to lose good people, and the beautiful red Piet says a > lot about your friend. Unique, a handsome stance, and a classic. > > By the way, to those who were asking about ideas on pitot tube mounting, > the way the red Piet has it installed is very close to what Scout has, and > I think it's quite a common way to do it. Bring the plastic tubing out of > the wing to the rigid pitot, right down the jury strut a little ways, to > get it out of disturbed air from the leading edge and well out of the > propwash. > > -------- > Oscar Zuniga > Medford, OR > Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" > A75 power > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393388#393388 > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:31 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil and Riblett airfoi From: "jarheadpilot82" "What about the vortex generators? That's a major difference in my opinion. I'd like to see the same number and type of vortex generators put on the 612 to see if there's a difference. Also, were the gross weights at take off the same? Maybe I missed that in the text. Great information! Thanks for doing this. Dan -- Dan Yocum" ___________________ Dan, Vortex Generators do not necessarily add a constant X percent improvement of all airfoils. Typically, they bring the most improvement to airfoils that have an earlier boundary separation, and thus a more "exciting" stall. That is not to say VG won't help all airfoils. The manufacturers would sure like you to believe that. But it is not equal. Therefore, putting VG's on a Riblett does not unmuddy the waters, or make for a more apples to apples comparison. In fact, take two Pietenpol airfoils, add VG's to both, but change at what percentage of the chordlne they are placed, and they will give different numbers when flown for comparison. It is not just the installation of VG's, but the placement as well, and unless two airplanes have them in exactly the same location, and they are at the same gross weight, running the same engine and prop, the numbers probably will be different. VG's seem to give an improvement. I think a more interesting comparison would be two separate tests- one comparison of P.F.'s airplane pre-VG and post-VG, and another testing and comparison of a Riblett wing pre-VG and post-VG. That would be a more accurate testing of the value of VG's, but only a comparison of Pietenpol airfoil to Pietenpol airfoil and Riblett to Riblett. Let me make sure that everyone understands this - I appreciate P.F. and Don's testing and information. They do all of us a service in doing the comparison flying. But, IMHO, it does not answer the Pietenpol vs Riblett debate. And adding VG's to Don's Riblett wing won't necessarily answer it either. If you like the Pietenpol airfoil, then by all means, build it. If you like the Riblett, as I do, then build it instead. But don't get too deep into a discussion by using these tests as the foundation of your argument on either side. It is an older article, but I have attached a link to a circa 1997 article by Mike Busch on installing VG's. The value of the article is about halfway down the article where he gives a short discussion of the theory behind VG's. It might be interesting for anyone wanting to know the how's and why's of Vortex Generators. My 2 cents -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393400#393400 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:07:14 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Comparison test between Pietenpol airfoil and Riblett airfoi From: "Bill Church" Well, I guess the only real way to do a *true* comparison of the Pietenpol vs Riblett airfoils' performance on a Piet would to be to fly a specific Piet with one airfoil, and then switch the wings and fly it again, on the same day, with the same engine, under the same atmospheric conditions. That probably ain't ever going to happen. In the absence of this type of a comparison, PF and Don's testing is likely as good an indicator as we will get. Both aircraft are VERY similar, with almost identical setups, so that the bulk of the differences in performance can logically be attributed to the difference in airfoils/wings. As PF clearly stated, the results so far are preliminary, and subject to change. However, the fact that there were basically insignificant differences in performance between the two suggests that changing the airfoil likely is not going to produce the sort of performance improvements that had been implied/hoped for. Or perhaps the only "improvement" in performance to be achieved by changing to a Riblett airfoil could be more easily realized by the addition of properly positioned VGs. While the comparison that has been done maybe isn't truly "apples to apples" (due to the VGs), it is the only real comparison that we have to date, and the preliminary results indicate that there likely isn't a whole lot of difference in performance to be had by changing the airfoil. In MY opinion, the test results are significant, and should not be discounted simply because one wing had VGs installed. Once again, many thanks to PF and Don for doing all this work, and sharing it with us. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393409#393409 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:01:49 PM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol and Riblett performance comparisons Good posts on this subject and I think PF said it best in his preliminary r eport: "Are there going to be any major performance differences in the two wings. Based on the first 12-14 flights, I don't think so." In my simple mind I'm thinking if the Riblett indeed does give a better cli mb rate than Piet wing it should at least, bare minimum match the climb rate of th e Pietenpol even without vortex generators which it doesn't at least thus far. In cruise vortex generators don't help you so they are not a factor but the Riblett should help cruise speed and so far from PF's testing the Riblett wing doesn't do any b etter than the Pietenpol wing. I realize that Don Harpers Corvair isn't fully broken in yet and that he an d PF are continuing to fine tune Don's rigging and ASI indications so there will be further results as this comparison goes on but for right now I'm not seeing anything that w ould make me want to build a Pietenpol with a Riblett airfoil. I think the speed increase that Lowell Frank felt with his Riblett was real but only because his Riblett wing is 2 feet shorter than a normal Piet wing. Any ai rfoil will give you a faster cruise speed if you cut two feet from it. Good discussion and many thanks to PF and Don Harper for this valuable inpu t. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:22:43 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol and Riblett performance comparisons From: "tkreiner" Based upon the fuse dimensions alone, the plane with the 612 airfoil has an equivalent square foot drag which is roughly 10% higher than P.F's. This is HUGE in terms of additional drag! The reality here is that the "comparison" is apples to oranges. In order to have a true comparison, the 612 wing should be mounted on P.F.'s plane, or vise versa. And then, we're still comparing the an airfoil with vg's to one without them. This is not a way to conduct a true comparison. That said, I'd like to see a REAL comparison. Acquire proper data, and we'd be able to determine quite a bit more about the relative performance of the two airfoils. As my Mechanical Design Prof in Engineering school used to say, " fellas, without good data, you're just another swinging D*** with an opinion." [/i] -------- Tom Kreiner Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393414#393414 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:42:31 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol and Riblett performance comparisons I'll bet PF regrets ever offering this info! Did anyone really read his post?...and his disclaimers? He's too much of a gentleman, but if it were me, my response would be, "Go find your own two airplanes and do your own tests!" Gary Boothe NX308MB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393414#393414 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:42:59 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol and Riblett performance comparisons From: "Bill Church" Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth. The testing that was done is NOT "apples to oranges". They may be slightly different varieties of apples, but there really isn't a huge difference between the two aircraft. As PF said, if you disagree with anything in the report, do your own tests, and then share the results with everyone. Otherwise, let's not make demands on anyone who has offered to share the fruits of their efforts. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393419#393419 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:48:49 PM PST US From: "Scott Knowlton " Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol and Riblett performance comparisons A lot of great food for thought has been put forward in this thread. I'll add my thanks to PF for starting it and supplying all of us with great data. As for performance comparisons and data gathering of small airplanes I would like to add an observation I've had on many occasions in my flying career. Years ago I towed gliders at a field blessed with three Cessna L-19 Bird Dogs. All were purchased new, surplus from the United States Army and assembled in Wichita KA. All had the same engine and were assembled in the same jig, rigged and test flown at the factory. By the time I flew them they were 15 years old but each performed differently. One climbed better, one required more left rudder on take off and climb, one shook in the decent past 100 Kts. My point is, these very same factory built airplanes all performed differently. This experience repeated itself with the Cessnas and Katanas I instructed on, Caravans I flew cargo in and even the DeHavilland Dash 8s I flew for a regional airline. Rigging, airframe deformation and twist, engine life and prop condition likely all play a role in this phenomenon. Reflecting on this observation I find it difficult to believe anyone will be able to conclusively prove the riblett airfoil or the BHP airfoil to be superior to one another given the unique and individual nature of our scratch-built machines unless one airfoil is vastly superior to the other. In my viewpoint, PF has already proven in his comparison that this isn't the case. I feel building light, focusing on alignment and proper rigging and ensuring good engine compression will all lead to much more predictable performance results than merely switching airfoil profiles. But my project isn't complete so I can only base this feeling on past experience. Do not archive. Scott Knowlton Slow builder, Burlington Ontario -----Original Message----- From: Gary Boothe Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol and Riblett performance comparisons I'll bet PF regrets ever offering this info! Did anyone really read his post?...and his disclaimers? He's too much of a gentleman, but if it were me, my response would be, "Go find your own two airplanes and do your own tests!" Gary Boothe NX308MB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393414#393414 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:19:59 PM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol and Riblett performance comparisons Hi Guys, I just got an email from Graham in West Australia. Graham built his Piet with the Riblett Wing and an O-200. UFZ is the Piet I built (and sold) with a standard Piet wing and a Corvair engine. His quote from the email:- "Yesterday I flew in formation with Paul in UFZ & Bert in the Bucker. It was 0630 & flat calm, UFZ amazed me & I was flat out keeping up, that old Corvair sounded great." I have no comparison of empty weights, flying conditions or anything else. Tends to agree with PF's findings. Cheers Peter Wonthaggi Australia http://repiet.cpc-world.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Saturday, 2 February 2013 10:43 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol and Riblett performance comparisons --> Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth. The testing that was done is NOT "apples to oranges". They may be slightly different varieties of apples, but there really isn't a huge difference between the two aircraft. As PF said, if you disagree with anything in the report, do your own tests, and then share the results with everyone. Otherwise, let's not make demands on anyone who has offered to share the fruits of their efforts. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393419#393419 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:52:46 PM PST US From: "skipgadd@earthlink.net" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Toe brake pedal location Hi Guys, Having some trouble with the location of my brake pedals in relation to the rudder bar. Want to locate the brake pads before I drill holes in the fuze walls. Like to know what works well as far as; 1 distance from fuze wall ply. 2 vertical distance above rudder bar. 3 distance fore or aft of neutral rudder bar. Thanks, Skip ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:33 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Pietenpol-List: Official Pietenpol-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the Pietenpol-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. 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Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Pietenpol-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Pietenpol-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Pietenpol-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Pietenpol-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:08:12 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Pietenpol-List: Official Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Pietenpol-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Pietenpol-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Pietenpol-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Pietenpol-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Pietenpol-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Pietenpol-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.