Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:37 AM - What are we doing!!! (Dave and Connie)
2. 03:49 AM - Re: What are we doing!!! (gliderx5@comcast.net)
3. 03:56 AM - Re: What are we doing!!! (Jack Phillips)
4. 04:12 AM - Re: What are we doing!!! (Michael Perez)
5. 05:18 AM - Re: What are we doing!!! (Gary Boothe)
6. 05:19 AM - Re: What are we doing!!! (nightmare)
7. 05:36 AM - Re: Re: What are we doing!!! (Gary Boothe)
8. 06:50 AM - What Are we Doing??? It look like... a good job... (Robert Dewenter)
9. 06:57 AM - Re: What are we doing!!! (nightmare)
10. 07:12 AM - Re: What are we doing!!! (kevinpurtee)
11. 07:14 AM - Re: What are we doing!!! (Bill Church)
12. 07:20 AM - Re: What are we doing!!! (brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com)
13. 07:53 AM - Re: What are we doing!!! (Michael Perez)
14. 09:07 AM - Re: What are we doing!!! (tools)
15. 09:13 AM - Re: What are we doing!!! (nightmare)
16. 02:40 PM - Re: One Wing Complete (weight) and C.S. Complete (Weight) (taildrags)
17. 05:04 PM - Tail tape (Jack)
18. 05:26 PM - Re: Tail tape (Gene Rambo)
19. 05:30 PM - Re: Tail tape (Gary Boothe)
20. 07:43 PM - Re: Toe brake pedal location (taildrags)
Message 1
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| Subject: | What are we doing!!! |
So today I found out an "entity" on this list has been selling "building
advice" videos while all the time building wings without leading edges????
Is this true or have I been sold a bill of goods? If it's true how
could so many experienced builders allow this to continue????
Do I need to shut up? or is this "stuff" being condoned by a lack of
reaction on this list?
Bob Dewenter
Dayton OH
*
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No virus found in this message.
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| Subject: | Re: What are we doing!!! |
Huh?
----- Original Message -----
From: rdewenter@woh.rr.com
Sent: Monday, February 4, 2013 10:32:49 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: What are we doing!!!
So today I found out an "entity" on this list has been selling "building advice"
videos while all the time building wings without leading edges????
Is this true or have I been sold a bill of goods? If it's true how could so many
experienced builders allow this to continue????
Do I need to shut up? or is this "stuff" being condoned by a lack of reaction on
this list?
Bob Dewenter
Dayton OH
Message 3
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| Subject: | What are we doing!!! |
Bob,
You are touching on kind of a sore subject. I agree with Gary Boothe's
response to you, but I must admit I question why anyone would offer videos
on how to build an airplane when they have not completed and flown such an
airplane - particularly when said person doesn't even have a pilot's
license. Not to say the advice sold in those videos is not good. I don't
know, never having seen them.
There is plenty of good advice from builders who have completed and flown
Pietenpols out there. Whenever I have conducted Pietenpol forums at
Brodhead and Oshkosh I have always listed Mike Cuy's video and the one
produced by Chuck Gantzer. Both are full of good information, and both have
flown their Pietenpols to Brodhead a number of times.
This list continues to be a good source of information. You just sort of
have to wade through it to figure out what information you want to use.
Good luck!
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
rdewenter@woh.rr.com
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 10:33 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: What are we doing!!!
So today I found out an "entity" on this list has been selling "building
advice" videos while all the time building wings without leading edges????
Is this true or have I been sold a bill of goods? If it's true how could so
many experienced builders allow this to continue????
Do I need to shut up? or is this "stuff" being condoned by a lack of
reaction on this list?
Bob Dewenter
Dayton OH
Message 4
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| Subject: | What are we doing!!! |
Gary, I am curious, what handmade plane are you building? Maybe you have told the
list before and I just missed it.
Michael Perez
Pietenpol HINT Videos
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
Message 5
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| Subject: | What are we doing!!! |
I have not made a public announcement; nor am I likely to. Some people get
very testy when you start changing things.
Gary Boothe
NX308MB
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:12 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: What are we doing!!!
Gary, I am curious, what handmade plane are you building? Maybe you have
told the list before and I just missed it.
Michael Perez
Pietenpol HINT Videos
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: What are we doing!!! |
I think Gary is right on. Bob, a bit misleading to say "no leading edge", from
what i understand, its a slightly different way of making the leading edge "solid".
ill let that person explain/defend how he is doing his leading edge. As
Gary mentioned, this is not a totally new concept.
As for selling videos. i personally dont have any problem with it. its probably
a fair point to make clear that your project isnt completed while selling
those videos, but there are many people that have a real desire to get some instructional
videos on techniques of how to best build the piet pieces.
I would feel differently if a person was selling videos of an airplane that is
his original design and never flown before. if a buyer of the videos finds that
the design is changed in such a way that the new builder doesnt gain any knowledge
on techniques of how to build it exactly as Bernard intended from those
videos, he could simply ask for his money back.
I do slightly disagree with Gary about learning from builders who have not completed
their project yet. We know that the piet will fly. I think the folks
that have a completed and flying plane sometimes discount what can be learned
from the folks who are still building. I find myself learning from builders who
are in the process , and who have finished.
a great man once said about builders who have completed their plane,
"they've only built one more plane than you".
--------
Paul Donahue
Started 8-3-12
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393654#393654
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: What are we doing!!! |
Paul - just a small point. You and I are in complete agreement, as I think
you may have mis-read my point. I suggested that the videos have some good
advice worth considering.
If you object to, "... I'm more concerned that you would feel the need to
question this list!..." I may have not made it clear, but I should have
said, "I'm more concerned that you would feel the need to question the
integrity of this list."
In the 4 1/2 years it took me to complete my Piet, I have gleaned an
immeasurable amount of good ideas and advice from both builders in process
and completed builders.
I do not wish to be mischaracterized on that point!!
Gary Boothe
NX308MB
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nightmare
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 5:19 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: What are we doing!!!
--> <pauldonahuepilot@yahoo.com>
I think Gary is right on. Bob, a bit misleading to say "no leading edge",
from what i understand, its a slightly different way of making the leading
edge "solid". ill let that person explain/defend how he is doing his leading
edge. As Gary mentioned, this is not a totally new concept.
As for selling videos. i personally dont have any problem with it. its
probably a fair point to make clear that your project isnt completed while
selling those videos, but there are many people that have a real desire to
get some instructional videos on techniques of how to best build the piet
pieces.
I would feel differently if a person was selling videos of an airplane that
is his original design and never flown before. if a buyer of the videos
finds that the design is changed in such a way that the new builder doesnt
gain any knowledge on techniques of how to build it exactly as Bernard
intended from those videos, he could simply ask for his money back.
I do slightly disagree with Gary about learning from builders who have
not completed their project yet. We know that the piet will fly. I think the
folks that have a completed and flying plane sometimes discount what can be
learned from the folks who are still building. I find myself learning from
builders who are in the process , and who have finished.
a great man once said about builders who have completed their plane,
"they've only built one more plane than you".
--------
Paul Donahue
Started 8-3-12
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393654#393654
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| Subject: | What Are we Doing??? It look like... a good job... |
To Gary and all the others who replied promptly to my question, thanks you.
>From the rapid and high quality responses, it is apparent there are numerous
people paying very close attention indeed. Most of the list readers will
recall a thread regarding the concern over Chuck Campbell's' wing spar
material. Someone (perhaps it was several) indeed spoke up on this list and
it might have prevented a serious incident or accident. It was those people
who knew right from wrong and spoke up - that makes me very happy to know
this list is "high quality".
I am working on a thesis on aircraft accidents in experimental aviation.
Sadly I'm finding numerous examples of a "small" latent defects in the
plane's construction that started a chain of conditions that led to an
accident. And in all cases if someone (supervision) had caught the defect,
the accident would never have occurred.
I'm happy to find this list has numerous examples of people willing to speak
up. It might just save someone's life.
Bob Dewenter
Dayton OH
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: What are we doing!!! |
Sorry Gary, my bad. i completely agree with you. looks like i was responding to
two posts , Yours and Jacks.
i guess my main point is; we are all adults, and can decide for ourselves what
path we want to take on achieving our goal. Flying the coolest little homebuilt
out there.
--------
Paul Donahue
Started 8-3-12
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393664#393664
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| Subject: | Re: What are we doing!!! |
Hi Paul - The statement "has only built one more plane than you" is pretty significant.
Given that very few plans-built projects are finished by the people
who start them, finishing one is a big deal. Additionally, if the person who
builds it actually flies it (a lot, hopefully) they gain valuable insight on both
the design and their own building techniques. They know what works. A builder
who has built and flown a Piet will have a stronger sense of "what right
looks like."
Having said all that, now I'm going to agree with you. As I build my second Pietenpol
I spend lots of time on West Coast Piet (blessings on the head of the
sainted Chris Tracy) gathering ideas from talented builders who haven't finished
their planes yet. However, as I look, I now have a much better idea of what
methods are likely to succeed. I spend most of my time looking at pictures
from Gary Boothe, Jim Markle and Chris Tracy. Gary has flown, Jim & Chris have
not.
There are a lot of good ideas out there. They're even better if they've been tested.
--------
Kevin "Axel" Purtee
Rebuilding NX899KP
Austin/San Marcos, TX
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| Subject: | Re: What are we doing!!! |
Paul,
While you are correct in saying that we can learn from builders who have not completed
their plane yet, care must be taken to ensure that any changes being made
are safe, and based on sound principles. Sometimes, builders will make design
changes that are structural in nature, yet no calculations have been done
to ensure that the integrity of the design has not been compromised. Or, sometimes
builders copy features from different aircraft designs, without scientifically
determining whether the feature is suitable for this aircraft. To blindly
copy somebody else's unproven changes can be risky. You state that "we know
that the Piet will fly". This is true, provided the plane is built per the
plans. If significant changes are made to the design, perhaps the plane will
not fly, or worse, it will fly, but not safely. On the other hand, many "changes"
made by builders are simply related to building techniques and methods,
or refer to parts that are not structural. The short story is that any changes
a builder makes really need to be analyzed to ensure the safety of the change.
If a builder isn't qualified to determine that on their own (through education
and/or experience), then they should seek the advice of someone who is before
proceeding with the change.
Bill C.
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| Subject: | What are we doing!!! |
The "method" used by builder in the videos is very similar to the method
that was used on my 1946 Taylorcraft, just like Gary mentioned. The
plywood and epoxy used in the videos is equal to... if not stronger than
the thin sheet metal and screws that has held the leading edge on my
T-craft for the last 60+ years. I have seen many of the videos
mentioned and also agree with Gary in the fact that a builder can glean
many ideas from other builders whether their plane is flying or not. I
have been to Brodhead and like many other builders have take many
pictures, thinking I want to add this idea or that to my Piet. The more
planes I see, the more ideas that are shared, the more photos I save,
will help me build my own personalized Piet. I have no doubt that the
plane in the video will fly in the near future and the builder will be
able to add the notation of "Flight tested" to the videos. I just wish
I was as far along in my build as the builder in the videos.
Brian
SLC-UT
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
rdewenter@woh.rr.com
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 8:33 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: What are we doing!!!
So today I found out an "entity" on this list has been selling "building
advice" videos while all the time building wings without leading
edges????
Is this true or have I been sold a bill of goods? If it's true how
could so many experienced builders allow this to continue????
Do I need to shut up? or is this "stuff" being condoned by a lack of
reaction on this list?
Bob Dewenter
Dayton OH
Message 13
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| Subject: | What are we doing!!! |
Understood. If you change your mind, I would be very curious to know the plane
and your changes.
Michael Perez
Pietenpol HINT Videos
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: What are we doing!!! |
Holy buckets, all this to do because Mike is using a C tube leading edge? Ever
notice Larry Williams used stub ribs instead?
Ever notice John Denver went in the clink because his plane was modified from the
plans to the point where a fuel valve was moved to a different location (to
accommodate the builder, but didn't work so well for him)? Who would have caught
that in a venue such as this?
E V E R Y T H I N G in this game is buyer be ware. "All" or "never" just really
have no place, the only correct answer being "it depends..."
Did you learn how to bend miserable thin plywood? Seems useful no matter what
kind of leading edge you want.
GREAT documentation is a godsend, good or bad (of course, good or bad being relative,
because - you guessed it - it depends), period. Documentation and communication
are the real assets of this board, not the content per se. If writers
would only caveat everything, IMHO... or readers would understand, it's only
an opinion NO MATTER WHAT is claimed, we could eliminate a lot of consternation.
Read this topic online here:
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| Subject: | Re: What are we doing!!! |
Hi Kevin; I do agree with you. Learning from my Piet build eldors is priceless.
I have and will continue to ask stupid questions of this great group. The quote
i regurgitated was meant in the most general of ways. I just dont think its
a good idea for those who have completed a build to discount a current builder
on giving advise. I also think that A&P's have a lot to bring to the table
(whether or not they have a pilot's license.) I myself believe i've come up with
a couple of helpful building techniques, but cowardly don't want to hang myself
out like that.
Hi Bill; I also agree with much of what you say. But i've got to tell you, I always
get a chuckle out of the "built to plans". You may be hard pressed to find
a "built to plans" with out the word "except" in the same sentence. And the
definition of "significant changes" is verrryyy subject to interpretation within
our group. The Piet community has widely excepted what many would call significant
changes as the acceptable way of doing it. Bob himself let me in on
a change that some, including him, and now myself are doing to their aircraft.
I think its a great idea but others would consider it a major change and crazy
talk.
I am not endorsing any or all changes. For my build i will be following many
of the piet predecessors advice, AC43.13, using AN hardware, and if i decide
to borrow an idea from another aircraft design,or make what i consider a small
change that doesn't adversely affect the structural integrity of the plane,
like many have, then i will do so very carefully.
Hopefully I haven't offended anyone. I just see it as a good discussion with
small differences of opinion. OK now back to building that canard wing.
--------
Paul Donahue
Started 8-3-12
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393677#393677
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| Subject: | Re: One Wing Complete (weight) and C.S. Complete (Weight) |
Okay, I finally got to weigh one of my wings (the one without the pitot)- 57.5
lbs on the bathroom scales. Solid 3/4" Douglas fir spars, 3/32" aileron control
cables and 1/8" drag/anti-drag X-wires inside the wing, Poly-Fiber system,
sprayed on Poly-Tone.
You guys with 45 lb. wings are on the right track! Scout is not a heavyweight
at all (633 lbs. with 3 quarts of oil in the engine), but it goes to show that
they can be built quite light. I could dispense with the venturi, tubing, and
turn/bank instrument and some other items and pare off pounds.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
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After looking at numerous pictures (thanks) it looks like most used 1
1/2"
tape to cover the rib stitching on the vertical stabilizer. 1=94 taped
would
allow =BC=94 overhang on each side. Any reason not to use 1=94 tape?
Starting to
enjoy covering!
Thanks,
Jack
Jack Textor
Des Moines, IA
Message 18
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1" is too narrow. 2" is the norm.
Gene
On Feb 5, 2013, at 8:03 PM, "Jack" <jack@textors.com> wrote:
> After looking at numerous pictures (thanks) it looks like most used 1 1/2"
tape to cover the rib stitching on the vertical stabilizer. 1=9D tape
d would allow =C2=BC=9D overhang on each side. Any reason not to use 1
=9D tape? Starting to enjoy covering!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jack
>
> Jack Textor
>
> Des Moines, IA
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 19
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I used 2=9D. Those stitches stand up a bit, and you need plenty of
=98purchase=99 on the surrounding sides to get the tape to
stay down.
Gary Boothe
NX308MB
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene
Rambo
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tail tape
1" is too narrow. 2" is the norm.
Gene
On Feb 5, 2013, at 8:03 PM, "Jack" <jack@textors.com> wrote:
After looking at numerous pictures (thanks) it looks like most used 1
1/2" tape to cover the rib stitching on the vertical stabilizer.
1=9D taped would allow =C2=BC=9D overhang on each side. Any
reason not to use 1=9D tape? Starting to enjoy covering!
Thanks,
Jack
Jack Textor
Des Moines, IA
=========
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
=========
cs.com
=========
matronics.com/contribution
=========
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Toe brake pedal location |
Okay now, Scout NEEDS one of those ports in the floor! That is really interesting!
Absolutely right about it admitting some natural light for preflighting,
and to give the front-seat navigator a view of landmarks on the ground ;o) That
is going on my summer projects list to do!
Actually, it is such a pain to lean way down into the front cockpit to work on
the fuel shutoff valve on my airplane that I'm going to make sure my observation
port is hinged and latched (from the outside) so I can get a hand up into that
area. Very cool!
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
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