---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 02/10/13: 54 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:28 AM - Re: ribblett/ piet airfoils (C N Campbell) 2. 05:34 AM - Re: ribblett/ piet airfoils (C N Campbell) 3. 06:32 AM - Fw: Uncle Jack's Piets (John Hofmann) 4. 07:38 AM - Re: Some decals went on today! (Chris Rusch) 5. 07:41 AM - Re: Some decals went on today! (Chris Rusch) 6. 07:44 AM - Re: Some decals went on today! (Chris Rusch) 7. 07:48 AM - Re: Some decals went on today! (Chris Rusch) 8. 07:53 AM - Flying Lessons Continue (John Francis) 9. 07:59 AM - Re: drilling streamling tubing (Michael Perez) 10. 08:00 AM - Re: Flying Lessons Continue (Gary Boothe) 11. 08:01 AM - Re: Flying Lessons Continue (Gary Boothe) 12. 08:08 AM - Re: Flying Lessons Continue (Michael Perez) 13. 08:09 AM - Re: Flying Lessons Continue (Gary Boothe) 14. 08:35 AM - Re: Flying Lessons Continue (Matthew) 15. 08:36 AM - fabricating music wire springs (shad bell) 16. 08:49 AM - Re: Flying Lessons Continue (John Francis) 17. 09:03 AM - Re: drilling streamling tubing (shad bell) 18. 09:06 AM - Re: Some decals went on today! (TriScout) 19. 09:07 AM - Re: Flying Lessons Continue (Jerry Dotson) 20. 09:15 AM - Re: Flying Lessons Continue (Jack) 21. 09:26 AM - Re: Some decals went on today! (TriScout) 22. 09:40 AM - Re: Flying Lessons Continue (tools) 23. 09:47 AM - Re: Fw: Uncle Jack's Piets (Jeffro) 24. 10:01 AM - Re: Flying Lessons Continue (K5YAC) 25. 10:08 AM - Re: Flying Lessons Continue (K5YAC) 26. 10:38 AM - Re: Re: Fw: Uncle Jack's Piets (John Hofmann) 27. 11:24 AM - Re: fabricating music wire springs (Don Emch) 28. 11:42 AM - Re: Fw: Uncle Jack's Piets (Scott Knowlton) 29. 11:56 AM - Re: Re: fabricating music wire springs (Dave and Connie) 30. 12:16 PM - Re: Flying Lessons Continue (C N Campbell) 31. 12:40 PM - Re: Flying Lessons Continue (George Abernathy) 32. 02:43 PM - Re: Flying Lessons Continue (Michael Perez) 33. 02:45 PM - Re: Re: Some decals went on today! (Michael Perez) 34. 02:46 PM - Covering (Jack) 35. 02:55 PM - Re: fabricating music wire springs (Michael Perez) 36. 02:57 PM - Re: Covering (Michael Perez) 37. 03:16 PM - Re: Flying Lessons Continue (Jack Phillips) 38. 03:48 PM - Re: Some decals went on today! (TriScout) 39. 03:48 PM - Re: Covering (Gary Boothe) 40. 04:02 PM - Re: Re: Some decals went on today! (Michael Perez) 41. 04:09 PM - Re: Re: Flying Lessons Continue (Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB) 42. 04:28 PM - Re: fabricating music wire springs (shad bell) 43. 04:38 PM - Re: Flying Lessons Continue (Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB) 44. 04:57 PM - Re: Flying Lessons Continue (jarheadpilot82) 45. 04:58 PM - Re: Flying Lessons Continue (Jack) 46. 05:15 PM - Re: Flying Lessons Continue (helspersew@aol.com) 47. 05:15 PM - Re: Re: Flying Lessons Continue (Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB) 48. 05:18 PM - Re: Some decals went on today! (TriScout) 49. 05:41 PM - Re: Flying Lessons Continue (Gardiner) 50. 05:52 PM - Re: Flying Lessons Continue (Gardiner) 51. 06:02 PM - Re: fabricating music wire springs (Brett Phillips) 52. 06:48 PM - Re: Flying Lessons Continue (John Francis) 53. 07:52 PM - Re: Flying Lessons Continue (M. Zeke Zechini) 54. 10:58 PM - Re: OT... my farher's passing..... (taildrags) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:28:19 AM PST US From: "C N Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ribblett/ piet airfoils ----- Original Message ----- From: "proplock" Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2013 9:55 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: ribblett/ piet airfoils > > > let's muddy the waters a little more, how does the dasterly GN-1 airfoil > compare? supposedly the g-1 was an improvement, but how so? > > -------- > A remarkable lad , capable of many things > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393946#393946 > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:34:57 AM PST US From: "C N Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ribblett/ piet airfoils Concerning the GN-1 airfoil, I read that it was supposed to improve the climb of the Piet over one with the Pietenpol airfoil. I don't know if that is the truth. I guess we would have to have someone with access to two comparable planes weight-wise etc. with same type engine/prop and two different airfoils to compare the two. I have the GN-1 airfoil in my wing simply because I had a full-size rib plan of the GN-1 and had started my ribs before I got the plans for the Piet. ----- Original Message ----- From: "proplock" Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2013 9:55 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: ribblett/ piet airfoils > > > let's muddy the waters a little more, how does the dasterly GN-1 airfoil > compare? supposedly the g-1 was an improvement, but how so? > > -------- > A remarkable lad , capable of many things > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393946#393946 > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:21 AM PST US From: John Hofmann Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fwd: Uncle Jack's Piets Here is some more information on the Jack Reber Pietenpol's that are now for sale in central Indiana. The message below was written by Alan Reber, Jack's nephew. Alan has a Tiger Moth and a nice Interstate Cadet he usually flies up to Brodhead for the fall MAAC fly in. These are nice airplanes and the Scout has a fresh Model B engine. -john- > To all in Chapter 226 > Hey guys, > > Jeff Moore posted some basic information about the availability for sale of my uncle's aeroplanes after I talked to several of you at the Wednesday Nighters this last week. Since yesterday I've received two phone calls and six e-mails inquiring as to the price, etc., of both the Scout and the Aircamper so there seems to be some real interest and I haven't even tried to advertise the sale yet. Some of the e-mails have come from people I don't know so I can't say if they are just tire kickers or if they have a real desire to buy, but its obvious that people are interested. I've talked to several knowledgeable people and I've gotten practically the exact same advice from all as to the value of the aeroplanes. I plan on asking $11000 for the Scout (this is on the advice of John Hofmann who says that the freshly overhauled Model B engine is a real plus) and $16000 for the Aircamper. Of course the actual sale price will depend on the real demand (i.e. who's willing to write a check and for how much) but I'll be up-front about the terms and conditions. > > First, let me say that, through my cousin Phil Reber (uncle Jack's middle son and owner of Merit Tool--uncle's former business) who is my aunt's official representative, I've been given full power to negotiate the sale of both aircraft. That said, my first concern is to sell these birds to my aunt's best advantage. I have no personal agenda other than to see that she is properly advised and represented. > > Second, these aircraft will be sold on a good faith basis in an "as is" condition with no on-going responsibility, i.e. no written or implied guarantees or warranties. These are home-built aircraft and all who would buy such will understand this. > > Third, before the sale of either or both aircraft they will be given a condition inspection and signed-of accordingly. This means that the Scout will have the engine installed before sale (unless the buyer expressly desires to do the installation himself) and both aircraft will be in a 'fly-away' condition. Terms concerning the delivery of the aircraft can be negotiated (I would be willing to ferry the aircraft a reasonable distance to the new owner subject to my work schedules and weather--read temperature!!). With this in mind I need volunteers to do the engine installation and sign-off the condition inspections. See below. > > Notwithstanding the conditions above, I do have a personal interest in keeping one or both of the Piets locally (the Muncie, Anderson, Pendleton, Indy area) if possible and would be willing to form a syndicate to keep them here. In other words, I might be willing to form a partnership with some like-minded guys to own the ONE of the the birds. If I do this it would mean a partnership with each shareholder owning an equal part of the aeroplane and sharing the fixed costs. I would insist on having at least a liability insurance policy covering each owner. Haul coverage would be by mutual consent. If there was no haul coverage, that would mean that if you break it, you just bought-out all of the other partners. We would also share in the maintenance of the aircraft. Ideally the machine would be located on a suitable grass strip in, of course, a hangar. If we have three, four or five partners no one will have that much in it and it would be "cheap" flying (I know--an oxymoron) and would, I think, be a lot of fun. The above is food for thought. If anyone is seriously interested please let me know as soon as possible. > > Another route to keeping one of the Piets locally would be to have it as a 'Chapter' aeroplane. The same conditions as above would apply, there would just be more owners. > > In either case, IF THERE IS A REAL INTEREST, please let me know as soon as possible as I'm bound by my responsibility to Aunt Janelle to move these aeroplanes in a reasonable period of time. She is not distressed (i.e. she isn't desperate for the money) but there is no interest in letting the aeroplanes sit around waiting for the buyer to make up their mind. > > Feel free to call me on my cell (317-694-5339) or e-mail me at cadetmoth2@yahoo.com anytime. > > Thanks guys for all of your help and support. > > Alan Reber > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:24 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Some decals went on today! From: "Chris Rusch" jarheadpilot82 wrote: > Where did you get/order the decals? I had them made at a local sign shop.... I gave them a picture of it and they scanned it. -------- NX321LR Fully Assembled Tail assembly and ailerons covered and painted. Wings covered and primed, one painted Mitsubishi Powered Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393955#393955 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:41:01 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Some decals went on today! From: "Chris Rusch" K5YAC wrote: > Looks nice! > > Looking a bit beyond the olive drab... what is the OTHER spoked rim attached to? Hmmmm That's a motorcycle project on hold until the Piet is done.... -------- NX321LR Fully Assembled Tail assembly and ailerons covered and painted. Wings covered and primed, one painted Mitsubishi Powered Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393956#393956 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:08 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Some decals went on today! From: "Chris Rusch" [quote="jack(at)textors.com"]Chris it looks great except the color :) you beat me! I think another with olive drab would be cool! We can fly in formation and have our own squadron. -------- NX321LR Fully Assembled Tail assembly and ailerons covered and painted. Wings covered and primed, one painted Mitsubishi Powered Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393957#393957 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:15 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Some decals went on today! From: "Chris Rusch" Thanks! I have to give some credit to Douwe... After discussing my paint scheme with him he nudged me into the ww1 theme. I initially was going to go with the 1943-45 WWII logo, but this is more period correct. [quote="speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.n"]Chris, that looks great! I love the war-bird look of the decal...and the wing color. We have similar tastes is this regard. Michael Perez Pietenpol HINT Videos Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com > [b] -------- NX321LR Fully Assembled Tail assembly and ailerons covered and painted. Wings covered and primed, one painted Mitsubishi Powered Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393958#393958 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:59 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Flying Lessons Continue From: "John Francis" As some of you know, part of my Piet build program is learning to fly. An opportunity arose and I started learning to fly under part 141 with a local community college. Pilot training in a Cessna 172 I had two more flying lessons this week. My original feeling of being overwhelmed has been replaced with frustration. It takes me a few hours after each lesson to think about what happened and why. I'm getting upset at myself for not getting everything quickly. I think we all hope when we start something like this that we are going to be "naturals" and it will come to us quickly. My instructor tells me I'm doing fine but I have my doubts. The bad stuff: 1. Although my taxiing has improved I still over-steer and use brakes for steering too often. 2. The throttle control is still foreign to me and sometimes I push instead of pull and vice-versa. 3. I don't use enough rudder and my instructor wants me to get used to this as he knows I will be flying a Pietenpol some day. 4. My instructor covers up important gauges like the airspeed indicator on take off as he wants me to "feel" when the plane is ready to fly. I feel nothing. 5. My transition and entry into the traffic pattern stinks as I seem to be very busy watching altitude, speed, flaps, traffic and everything else my instructor is saying in my headset. 6. My landings suck. I bounced it yesterday and missed the centerline. The good stuff: 1. Instructor says I'm fine. 2. Flying does not scare me or am I nervous when in the plane. 3. He trusted me with the preflight yesterday. 4. If pushed I believe I could do everything but land. (He's says I could land if he passed out and we would walk away from it.) 5. I've only had three lessons, three landings, and logged 2.6 hours of flight instruction. John -------- John Francis Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393959#393959 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:59:21 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: drilling streamling tubing Dennis, I have a video clip, (for an upcoming HINT Video) -that may help you with the drilling.- This clip is is under 3 min. long. If interested, I can email it to you. - What I used was a vice with a "V" groove in it. This will hold the strut on the same plane as the drill press/mill table. (Parallel)- If the press/m ill is set up correctly, the strut/vice and drill bit/chuck will be perpend icular to each other.- At this point you only need to get the angle of th e strut in the vice correct. (Think angle of attack.) If you hold the drill bit in the drill, chuck-and lower it down over the end of the strut, you can eyeball the drill bit to the strut to get your 90 deg. Again, adjustin g the "angle of attack" of the strut to get 90 deg. to the drill bit. - You can also buy "V" groove inserts for vices that do not have them built i n. - Michael Perez Pietenpol HINT Videos Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:00:53 AM PST US From: Gary Boothe Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flying Lessons Continue Sent from my iPhone On Feb 10, 2013, at 7:53 AM, "John Francis" wrote: > > As some of you know, part of my Piet build program is learning to fly. An opportunity arose and I started learning to fly under part 141 with a local community college. > > > > Pilot training in a Cessna 172 > > I had two more flying lessons this week. My original feeling of being overwhelmed has been replaced with frustration. It takes me a few hours after each lesson to think about what happened and why. I'm getting upset at myself for not getting everything quickly. I think we all hope when we start something like this that we are going to be "naturals" and it will come to us quickly. My instructor tells me I'm doing fine but I have my doubts. > > The bad stuff: > > 1. Although my taxiing has improved I still over-steer and use brakes for steering too often. > 2. The throttle control is still foreign to me and sometimes I push instead of pull and vice-versa. > 3. I don't use enough rudder and my instructor wants me to get used to this as he knows I will be flying a Pietenpol some day. > 4. My instructor covers up important gauges like the airspeed indicator on take off as he wants me to "feel" when the plane is ready to fly. I feel nothing. > 5. My transition and entry into the traffic pattern stinks as I seem to be very busy watching altitude, speed, flaps, traffic and everything else my instructor is saying in my headset. > 6. My landings suck. I bounced it yesterday and missed the centerline. > > The good stuff: > > 1. Instructor says I'm fine. > 2. Flying does not scare me or am I nervous when in the plane. > 3. He trusted me with the preflight yesterday. > 4. If pushed I believe I could do everything but land. (He's says I could land if he passed out and we would walk away from it.) > 5. I've only had three lessons, three landings, and logged 2.6 hours of flight instruction. > > John > > -------- > John Francis > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393959#393959 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:55 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flying Lessons Continue From: Gary Boothe Sent from my iPhone On Feb 10, 2013, at 7:53 AM, "John Francis" wrote: > > As some of you know, part of my Piet build program is learning to fly. An opportunity arose and I started learning to fly under part 141 with a local community college. > > > > Pilot training in a Cessna 172 > > I had two more flying lessons this week. My original feeling of being overwhelmed has been replaced with frustration. It takes me a few hours after each lesson to think about what happened and why. I'm getting upset at myself for not getting everything quickly. I think we all hope when we start something like this that we are going to be "naturals" and it will come to us quickly. My instructor tells me I'm doing fine but I have my doubts. > > The bad stuff: > > 1. Although my taxiing has improved I still over-steer and use brakes for steering too often. > 2. The throttle control is still foreign to me and sometimes I push instead of pull and vice-versa. > 3. I don't use enough rudder and my instructor wants me to get used to this as he knows I will be flying a Pietenpol some day. > 4. My instructor covers up important gauges like the airspeed indicator on take off as he wants me to "feel" when the plane is ready to fly. I feel nothing. > 5. My transition and entry into the traffic pattern stinks as I seem to be very busy watching altitude, speed, flaps, traffic and everything else my instructor is saying in my headset. > 6. My landings suck. I bounced it yesterday and missed the centerline. > > The good stuff: > > 1. Instructor says I'm fine. > 2. Flying does not scare me or am I nervous when in the plane. > 3. He trusted me with the preflight yesterday. > 4. If pushed I believe I could do everything but land. (He's says I could land if he passed out and we would walk away from it.) > 5. I've only had three lessons, three landings, and logged 2.6 hours of flight instruction. > > John > > -------- > John Francis > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393959#393959 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:45 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flying Lessons Continue John, congratulations on starting your flying. I am in ground school now an d am saving up the funds to at least get a few flight hours in soon. - You are and will continue to do fine.- It sounds like you have very littl e flying experience and you are starting to learn everything from scratch. This could be a good thing as you are a clean slate with no bad habbit or t endencies.- The biggest assest I hear from what you said is that you are conmfortable and not affraid when in the air.- That is all you need...eve rything else will come with time and practice. - I wish I was flying now!- I have done a fair amount of it, (not PIC) incl uding areobatics and love it. Looking forward to being where you are now... in the air and logging hours! - Best wishes. Michael Perez Pietenpol HINT Videos Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:25 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flying Lessons Continue From: Gary Boothe Sorry, stupid I-phone! Meant to respond directly to John and kept touching the 'send' button. I need a 3 sec delay... Gary Sent from my iPhone On Feb 10, 2013, at 7:58 AM, Gary Boothe wrote: > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 10, 2013, at 7:53 AM, "John Francis" wrote: > >> >> As some of you know, part of my Piet build program is learning to fly. An opportunity arose and I started learning to fly under part 141 with a local community college. >> >> >> >> Pilot training in a Cessna 172 >> >> I had two more flying lessons this week. My original feeling of being overwhelmed has been replaced with frustration. It takes me a few hours after each lesson to think about what happened and why. I'm getting upset at myself for not getting everything quickly. I think we all hope when we start something like this that we are going to be "naturals" and it will come to us quickly. My instructor tells me I'm doing fine but I have my doubts. >> >> The bad stuff: >> >> 1. Although my taxiing has improved I still over-steer and use brakes for steering too often. >> 2. The throttle control is still foreign to me and sometimes I push instead of pull and vice-versa. >> 3. I don't use enough rudder and my instructor wants me to get used to this as he knows I will be flying a Pietenpol some day. >> 4. My instructor covers up important gauges like the airspeed indicator on take off as he wants me to "feel" when the plane is ready to fly. I feel nothing. >> 5. My transition and entry into the traffic pattern stinks as I seem to be very busy watching altitude, speed, flaps, traffic and everything else my instructor is saying in my headset. >> 6. My landings suck. I bounced it yesterday and missed the centerline. >> >> The good stuff: >> >> 1. Instructor says I'm fine. >> 2. Flying does not scare me or am I nervous when in the plane. >> 3. He trusted me with the preflight yesterday. >> 4. If pushed I believe I could do everything but land. (He's says I could land if he passed out and we would walk away from it.) >> 5. I've only had three lessons, three landings, and logged 2.6 hours of flight instruction. >> >> John >> >> -------- >> John Francis >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393959#393959 > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:12 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flying Lessons Continue From: Matthew Sounds like you are doing just fine John, and it also sounds like you have a pretty good instructor, who did you end up with? I'm looking to start there next semester. Sent from my iPhone On Feb 10, 2013, at 10:53 AM, "John Francis" wrote: > > As some of you know, part of my Piet build program is learning to fly. An opportunity arose and I started learning to fly under part 141 with a local community college. > > > > Pilot training in a Cessna 172 > > I had two more flying lessons this week. My original feeling of being overwhelmed has been replaced with frustration. It takes me a few hours after each lesson to think about what happened and why. I'm getting upset at myself for not getting everything quickly. I think we all hope when we start something like this that we are going to be "naturals" and it will come to us quickly. My instructor tells me I'm doing fine but I have my doubts. > > The bad stuff: > > 1. Although my taxiing has improved I still over-steer and use brakes for steering too often. > 2. The throttle control is still foreign to me and sometimes I push instead of pull and vice-versa. > 3. I don't use enough rudder and my instructor wants me to get used to this as he knows I will be flying a Pietenpol some day. > 4. My instructor covers up important gauges like the airspeed indicator on take off as he wants me to "feel" when the plane is ready to fly. I feel nothing. > 5. My transition and entry into the traffic pattern stinks as I seem to be very busy watching altitude, speed, flaps, traffic and everything else my instructor is saying in my headset. > 6. My landings suck. I bounced it yesterday and missed the centerline. > > The good stuff: > > 1. Instructor says I'm fine. > 2. Flying does not scare me or am I nervous when in the plane. > 3. He trusted me with the preflight yesterday. > 4. If pushed I believe I could do everything but land. (He's says I could land if he passed out and we would walk away from it.) > 5. I've only had three lessons, three landings, and logged 2.6 hours of flight instruction. > > John > > -------- > John Francis > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393959#393959 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:43 AM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Pietenpol-List: fabricating music wire springs Gentelmen, Have any of you ever wound your own springs from music wire?- I had to fabricate a double torsion spring for the locking tailwheel I am b uilding.- I have the spring wound and formed (its made from .062" music w ire) and has plenty of torsion, but I am wondering what temperature to stre ss relieve it at.- I have read (on the internet) anywhere from 375 to 500 F for 30-60 min.- I just want to make sure that I don't soften the wire a nd weaken the spring, as well as run my electric bill up running my wifes o ven at 500 degrees for an hour. - Shad ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:09 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flying Lessons Continue From: "John Francis" Shawn Riffee is my instructor. -------- John Francis Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393972#393972 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:03:38 AM PST US From: shad bell Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: drilling streamling tubing I was thinking, what about making a block with a streamlined cutout, then c ut the block in half with a table saw so the cutout was cut in half.- The n you could clamp the tube in the form block and have a flat 90 degree plat form for drilling.- The-time consuming-part will be making the cutout accuratly so that it will give you consistant accurate results. - Just a thought, Shad --- On Sun, 2/10/13, Michael Perez wrote: From: Michael Perez Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: drilling streamling tubing Dennis, I have a video clip, (for an upcoming HINT Video) -that may help you with the drilling.- This clip is is under 3 min. long. If interested, I can email it to you. - What I used was a vice with a "V" groove in it. This will hold the strut on the same plane as the drill press/mill table. (Parallel)- If the press/m ill is set up correctly, the strut/vice and drill bit/chuck will be perpend icular to each other.- At this point you only need to get the angle of th e strut in the vice correct. (Think angle of attack.) If you hold the drill bit in the drill, chuck-and lower it down over the end of the strut, you can eyeball the drill bit to the strut to get your 90 deg. Again, adjustin g the "angle of attack" of the strut to get 90 deg. to the drill bit. - You can also buy "V" groove inserts for vices that do not have them built i n. - Michael Perez Pietenpol HINT Videos Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:04 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Some decals went on today! From: "TriScout" Chris, Would you have the contact intel on that local sign shop handy? My GN-1 "warbird" is painted in P6 Hawk colors...only thing missing are those exact decals. Thx in advance... Larry N2308C Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393974#393974 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:07:35 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flying Lessons Continue From: "Jerry Dotson" John you have barely gotten your feet wet.....patience man. Feeling when ready to fly.....feel the elevator, pull back just a little and when you get some speed wiggle it back and forth a little more to the nose up position. You can feel the difference in pressure it takes to move it. When you get 8 to 10 hours it will start coming together. -------- Jerry Dotson First flight June 16,2012 Started building July, 2009 Lycoming O-235 C2C Jay Anderson CloudCars prop 76 X 44 do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393975#393975 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:15:10 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flying Lessons Continue From: Jack Hang in there Matthew. My first takeoffs in the 140 (taildragger) were horrible, going from one side of the runway to the other, with my instructor correcting and giving it back to me. Sent from my iPad Jack Textor On Feb 10, 2013, at 10:34 AM, Matthew wrote: > > Sounds like you are doing just fine John, and it also sounds like you have a pretty good instructor, who did you end up with? I'm looking to start there next semester. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 10, 2013, at 10:53 AM, "John Francis" wrote: > >> >> As some of you know, part of my Piet build program is learning to fly. An opportunity arose and I started learning to fly under part 141 with a local community college. >> >> >> >> Pilot training in a Cessna 172 >> >> I had two more flying lessons this week. My original feeling of being overwhelmed has been replaced with frustration. It takes me a few hours after each lesson to think about what happened and why. I'm getting upset at myself for not getting everything quickly. I think we all hope when we start something like this that we are going to be "naturals" and it will come to us quickly. My instructor tells me I'm doing fine but I have my doubts. >> >> The bad stuff: >> >> 1. Although my taxiing has improved I still over-steer and use brakes for steering too often. >> 2. The throttle control is still foreign to me and sometimes I push instead of pull and vice-versa. >> 3. I don't use enough rudder and my instructor wants me to get used to this as he knows I will be flying a Pietenpol some day. >> 4. My instructor covers up important gauges like the airspeed indicator on take off as he wants me to "feel" when the plane is ready to fly. I feel nothing. >> 5. My transition and entry into the traffic pattern stinks as I seem to be very busy watching altitude, speed, flaps, traffic and everything else my instructor is saying in my headset. >> 6. My landings suck. I bounced it yesterday and missed the centerline. >> >> The good stuff: >> >> 1. Instructor says I'm fine. >> 2. Flying does not scare me or am I nervous when in the plane. >> 3. He trusted me with the preflight yesterday. >> 4. If pushed I believe I could do everything but land. (He's says I could land if he passed out and we would walk away from it.) >> 5. I've only had three lessons, three landings, and logged 2.6 hours of flight instruction. >> >> John >> >> -------- >> John Francis >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393959#393959 > > > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:26:14 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Some decals went on today! From: "TriScout" ...attempted warbird attachment photo.. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393977#393977 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/warbird_121.jpg ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:40:30 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flying Lessons Continue From: "tools" About everything associated with learning to fly is N E W. It's just gonna take some time for you to start assimilating it all. Being frustrated is fine, but don't let it get to you too much. It's like stress, stress is good as long as you don't let it get past the performance enhancing level, ya know? I taught a lot in the Navy, and about everything I taught was very new to the students, weird esoteric stuff and they seemed to have the same reactions you're having (which I remember having very well). I found that when you're frustrated all around like this, it all tends to just come together at once as well. Something to consider talking to your instructor about is either concentrating on one little thing a bit more (so that you get it sooner with the associated feeling of accomplishment) or spread out even more (so that you don't get very frustrated with any one thing too much). Everyone is different, so maybe bring it up, experiment a bit and see if you can find a pace that fits your style of learning more. I have found that once you do get frustrated with something, like landings, after a couple bad ones, just give it up a bit (like to the next lesson or something) and let what you have learned soak in a bit. Not feeling the airplane is almost always accompanied by being very tense. We used to call is squeezing the black juice out of the stick grip... Try to consciously let go of the yoke (or throttle) every so often and physically loosen up your arm! It's VERY normal to get an arm, or feet, so tight you'll get cramps! When I was getting my tailwheel endorsement last year, my legs would be sore at the end of the lesson from pushing with BOTH my feet so much. When ever I'd suspect a student doing that, I'd reach down and nudge the stick (tandam seating, so couldn't look and see). Every once in a while I'd find I couldn't BUDGE the stick at all. I imagine I'd get up to 15 lbs of force or more on the stick before they'd even notice. The MOST IMPORTANT thing of all is that you enjoy it. Unfortunately flying lessons are expensive, but it may also be worth considering doing something fun in the plane, rather than just LEARN the whole flight. Go somewhere, fly some REALLY wide large patterns to just slow things down some and relax, take along your spouse, kid, friend, and let them take a turn in the hot seat while you watch a few (you'd be AMAZED at what you learn by sitting back about 18 inches...) landings or whatever. One not often used thing I would do with some students was to become a voice activated auto pilot. I'd have them direct my every move... that made them aware of everything, without using their muscles to get it done, seemed to increase a level of awareness once in a while. Conversely, sometimes I'd take away a function or two and let them JUST do what they needed a little help with (to the point of flying angle of attack landings while they did NOTHING but move the throttle). Every student and instructor are different, and your interaction is unique. At 3 hrs or so, if he feels you can fly without killing him, you're doing FINE! Seriously. Remember, everyone out here not flying a lot, is jealous. Revel in your luck and have fun for us, keep coming back and telling us about it so we can live vicariously! Cheers, Tools (who really took a trip down memory lane listening to some of those "woes") Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393980#393980 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:47:22 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fwd: Uncle Jack's Piets From: "Jeffro" Any Chance you could include more details on the Pietenpol? Buyers like me are looking for total time on engine, and SMOH, empty weight, how many gallons the fuel tank holds, year built (1979 sound right?) any photos of the panel and any other details like how many hours flown in the last year. Thanks Jeff Gabrielson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393981#393981 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:36 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flying Lessons Continue From: "K5YAC" John... don't get too frustrated. At three hours I was probably still trying to taxi with the yoke! Ok, maybe not. While the minimum is 40 hours, I certainly wouldn't set your sights there. Be patient. Some things will come easier than others. I'll go ahead and tell on myself for the sake of encouragement... it took me 33 hours to solo... Now that the laughter has died down, I'll add that I stopped and started flight training twice in the first 25 hours due to work, school, life, etc. One of those times was for a complete year, so with 15 hours or so I felt like I was starting over, almost from scratch. None the less I got my license at 82 hours. Waaay above the average of 60 hours or so, but I didn't care... it took as long as it did for a variety of reasons. 1. Stopping and starting didn't help. 2. I didn't always fly regularly... sometimes a month would go by between lessons... something to avoid if at all possible. 3. My instructor was very thorough... when I did take my check ride I missed NOTHING! Was that worth a few extra bucks/hours? I suppose. As I said... some things will come easier than others... look forward to the things that you are good at and make up your mind that you won't let them be a big hurdle. My landings were bad for a long time (due to the reasons I've mentioned), but radio work was no sweat! As an RTO in the Army and an Amateur Radio operator, I already had this skill mastered, in fact I found it to be fun! I personally know at least one person (maybe others) that quit flight training because they couldn't get comfortable with the radio. Seem so odd to me, but to them, it was apparently deal breaker. It certainly doesn't need to be. What about the charts? If you have any experience with military map reading you may find flight planning to be somewhat familiar and fun! Could be that there are other things that you may not struggle with as much as others. Even if it is all a challenge to you, it is well worth the effort... be patient, it will come. One thing that you appear to have going for you is that it sounds like you have a good instructor. Another quick story and I'll stop... a friend of mine from grade school got his ticket around the same time I did... we had not talked for over 20 years, but found each other an began to catch up. Neither of us were surprised to find out that we had both completed private flight training. What was different was that it took me 82 hours to get my ticket while it only took him 42. I remember thinking to myself... man, he must have been really good. Come to find out, his instructor was a friend of his and from the very beginning their primary goal was to get him checked out in the fewest hours possible... 42 is about as low as it gets. One day, some time later, he was planning to use the club's Cherokee for a cross country trip and he commented to me, "this is where I really wish I would have got more training." While he got his license in well below the average number of flight hours, he really wasn't comfortable with his skills in a few areas where a minimum amount of attention was given. I looked back at all the extra time I spent training and was glad that I didn't feel the same. Anyhow, there it is for what it's worth. The way to look at this adventure is that it will take as long as it takes. I fully expect that if you fly regularly you will soon be looking forward with confidence and an empty right seat. At 3 hours almost nothing was coming together for me. I understood the concept, but I certainly wasn't "feeling" the airplane just yet. There are certainly others on the list with WAY more knowledge and experience than I have, but from a guy who didn't breeze through flight training, nor who has hundreds or thousands of flight hours, I hope my story will give you some hope. Hang in there, the fun is just now starting! -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage and Fuse framed up - Working on Landing Gear Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393982#393982 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:54 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flying Lessons Continue From: "K5YAC" I"m with tools... keep us posted! I haven't flown PIC in a long time, and your stories of training will likely bring up fond memories for many. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage and Fuse framed up - Working on Landing Gear Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393983#393983 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:23 AM PST US From: John Hofmann Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fwd: Uncle Jack's Piets I posted what I have. There is contact information in the message. I would say if you are really serious, contact Alan and he will get you whatever you need. Best, -john- John Hofmann Vice-President, Information Technology The Rees Group, Inc. 2424 American Lane Madison, WI 53704 Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 Fax: 608.443.2474 Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com On Feb 10, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Jeffro wrote: > > Any Chance you could include more details on the Pietenpol? Buyers like me are looking for total time on engine, and SMOH, empty weight, how many gallons the fuel tank holds, year built (1979 sound right?) any photos of the panel and any other details like how many hours flown in the last year. > > Thanks > Jeff Gabrielson > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393981#393981 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:24:40 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: fabricating music wire springs From: "Don Emch" Hey Shad, I've made springs on a lathe with music wire, but I don't think I ever stressed relieved them. Hmm... Maybe I should have. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393986#393986 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:28 AM PST US From: "Scott Knowlton " Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fwd: Uncle Jack's Piets John, Great progress and it sounds like you have a good instructor to mentor you. 2.6 is but a small amount of time and your will find yourself making great progress soon enough as it sounds like you have the right attitude. Listen to Tools, he makes some great points. I have taught for several years and continue to do so - mostly in taildragger aircraft at this point. A technique I would like to propose to you to help you achieve your goals and maximize each lesson is the practice of "arm chair flying". It sounds odd and ineffective but for many it's a real game changer. You can do it as often as your lifestyle allows and the best part is it's FREE! Flying is literally a collection of maneuvers which combine manipulation of flight controls (primary and ancillary) and power. What tends to get students bogged down and saturated in the early stages is the fact that anything you do (start, taxi, take-off, climb, level-off....) Is a series of inputs required by you. These inputs are not yet second nature (2.6 hours of experience) so as you are confronted with the need to re-call the steps while consumed with maintaining simple control of the airplane. Arm chair flying enables you to re-create each one of the maneuvers in the comfort of your own home and practice them like drill. The simplest form of armchair flying is simply sitting in a chair with your eyes closed and visualizing a maneuver (ie Level Off - 50 feet before target altitude slowly lower the nose to the cruise attitude, allow the aircraft to accelerate, select cruise power, trim). Work the imaginary controls with your hands and say the procedure aloud - repeat. Do this with each exercise you've already done with your instructor. Do it as often as you can and make a point of reviewing new items you learned on the day you learned them. If you want to get fancy, buy a poster of your training plane panel, dry mount it and put it in front of you while you arm chair fly. The next time you go flying your instructor may accuse you of practicing with someone else between lessons! Good luck and enjoy the process. You'll do great! Scott Knowlton. -----Original Message----- From: John Hofmann Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fwd: Uncle Jack's Piets Here is some more information on the Jack Reber Pietenpol's that are now for sale in central Indiana. The message below was written by Alan Reber, Jack's nephew. Alan has a Tiger Moth and a nice Interstate Cadet he usually flies up to Brodhead for the fall MAAC fly in. These are nice airplanes and the Scout has a fresh Model B engine. -john- > To all in Chapter 226 > Hey guys, > > Jeff Moore posted some basic information about the availability for sale of my uncle's aeroplanes after I talked to several of you at the Wednesday Nighters this last week. Since yesterday I've received two phone calls and six e-mails inquiring as to the price, etc., of both the Scout and the Aircamper so there seems to be some real interest and I haven't even tried to advertise the sale yet. Some of the e-mails have come from people I don't know so I can't say if they are just tire kickers or if they have a real desire to buy, but its obvious that people are interested. I've talked to several knowledgeable people and I've gotten practically the exact same advice from all as to the value of the aeroplanes. I plan on asking $11000 for the Scout (this is on the advice of John Hofmann who says that the freshly overhauled Model B engine is a real plus) and $16000 for the Aircamper. Of course the actual sale price will depend on the real demand (i.e. who's willing to write a check and for how much) but I'll be up-front about the terms and conditions. > > First, let me say that, through my cousin Phil Reber (uncle Jack's middle son and owner of Merit Tool--uncle's former business) who is my aunt's official representative, I've been given full power to negotiate the sale of both aircraft. That said, my first concern is to sell these birds to my aunt's best advantage. I have no personal agenda other than to see that she is properly advised and represented. > > Second, these aircraft will be sold on a good faith basis in an "as is" condition with no on-going responsibility, i.e. no written or implied guarantees or warranties. These are home-built aircraft and all who would buy such will understand this. > > Third, before the sale of either or both aircraft they will be given a condition inspection and signed-of accordingly. This means that the Scout will have the engine installed before sale (unless the buyer expressly desires to do the installation himself) and both aircraft will be in a 'fly-away' condition. Terms concerning the delivery of the aircraft can be negotiated (I would be willing to ferry the aircraft a reasonable distance to the new owner subject to my work schedules and weather--read temperature!!). With this in mind I need volunteers to do the engine installation and sign-off the condition inspections. See below. > > Notwithstanding the conditions above, I do have a personal interest in keeping one or both of the Piets locally (the Muncie, Anderson, Pendleton, Indy area) if possible and would be willing to form a syndicate to keep them here. In other words, I might be willing to form a partnership with some like-minded guys to own the ONE of the the birds. If I do this it would mean a partnership with each shareholder owning an equal part of the aeroplane and sharing the fixed costs. I would insist on having at least a liability insurance policy covering each owner. Haul coverage would be by mutual consent. If there was no haul coverage, that would mean that if you break it, you just bought-out all of the other partners. We would also share in the maintenance of the aircraft. Ideally the machine would be located on a suitable grass strip in, of course, a hangar. If we have three, four or five partners no one will have that much in it and it would be "cheap" flying (I know--an oxymoron) and would, I think, be a lot of fun. The above is food for thought. If anyone is seriously interested please let me know as soon as possible. > > Another route to keeping one of the Piets locally would be to have it as a 'Chapter' aeroplane. The same conditions as above would apply, there would just be more owners. > > In either case, IF THERE IS A REAL INTEREST, please let me know as soon as possible as I'm bound by my responsibility to Aunt Janelle to move these aeroplanes in a reasonable period of time. She is not distressed (i.e. she isn't desperate for the money) but there is no interest in letting the aeroplanes sit around waiting for the buyer to make up their mind. > > Feel free to call me on my cell (317-694-5339) or e-mail me at cadetmoth2@yahoo.com anytime. > > Thanks guys for all of your help and support. > > Alan Reber > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 11:56:45 AM PST US From: Dave and Connie Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: fabricating music wire springs If you cook them in the oven you will anneal them and may very well make them stop being springs. Dave On 2/10/2013 2:24 PM, Don Emch wrote: > > Hey Shad, > > I've made springs on a lathe with music wire, but I don't think I ever stressed relieved them. Hmm... Maybe I should have. > > Don Emch > NX899DE > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 12:16:29 PM PST US From: "C N Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flying Lessons Continue 2.6 hours? You haven't even started yet. I had a student in primary flight training in the Navy who had 30 hours and hadn't looked out of the cockpit but a couple of times. When I went through flight training the common belief was that you should be ready for first solo after 8 hours. I had a little over 10 when I soloed the first time. That front seat looked awfully empty. Be patient. It will come. C ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Francis" Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 10:53 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Flying Lessons Continue > > As some of you know, part of my Piet build program is learning to fly. An > opportunity arose and I started learning to fly under part 141 with a > local community college. > > > Pilot training in a Cessna 172 > > I had two more flying lessons this week. My original feeling of being > overwhelmed has been replaced with frustration. It takes me a few hours > after each lesson to think about what happened and why. I'm getting upset > at myself for not getting everything quickly. I think we all hope when we > start something like this that we are going to be "naturals" and it will > come to us quickly. My instructor tells me I'm doing fine but I have my > doubts. > > The bad stuff: > > 1. Although my taxiing has improved I still over-steer and use brakes for > steering too often. > 2. The throttle control is still foreign to me and sometimes I push > instead of pull and vice-versa. > 3. I don't use enough rudder and my instructor wants me to get used to > this as he knows I will be flying a Pietenpol some day. > 4. My instructor covers up important gauges like the airspeed indicator on > take off as he wants me to "feel" when the plane is ready to fly. I feel > nothing. > 5. My transition and entry into the traffic pattern stinks as I seem to be > very busy watching altitude, speed, flaps, traffic and everything else my > instructor is saying in my headset. > 6. My landings suck. I bounced it yesterday and missed the centerline. > > The good stuff: > > 1. Instructor says I'm fine. > 2. Flying does not scare me or am I nervous when in the plane. > 3. He trusted me with the preflight yesterday. > 4. If pushed I believe I could do everything but land. (He's says I could > land if he passed out and we would walk away from it.) > 5. I've only had three lessons, three landings, and logged 2.6 hours of > flight instruction. > > John > > -------- > John Francis > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393959#393959 > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 12:40:46 PM PST US From: George Abernathy Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flying Lessons Continue Ahhh "Modern" flight training. =0A=0AImagine what a kid would be like tryin g to learn to ride a bicycle while talking to air traffic control, monitori ng other bikes, checking the pavement, and the sky. And while worried about his learning curve compared to the other kids. =0A=0AI also had some adven tures while learning to fly. Almost too bad to type about. =0A=0AThe instru ctors main job is to keep you from hurting yourself while you figure out ho w to fly. =0A=0ABack in the good old days ( when airplanes were wooden and sex was safe) it was rumored that flying was cheap and people soloed in thr ee hours in a J-3 cub. Probably not true. If it was you can bet there was n o other traffic and no air traffic control and no radio. =0A=0AFrom your de scription I think that he can keep you safe. It is most important that you relax. Ask yourself if you are comfortable with him. If you are, let him do his job. If not try a different personality. =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A______________ __________________=0A From: Matthew =0ATo: "p ietenpol-list@matronics.com" =0ASent: Monday , February 11, 2013 3:34 AM=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flying Lessons C vort@gmail.com>=0A=0ASounds like you are doing just fine John, and it also sounds like you have a pretty good instructor, who did you end up with? I'm looking to start there next semester.=0A=0A=0A=0ASent from my iPhone=0A=0A On Feb 10, 2013, at 10:53 AM, "John Francis" wrote:=0A om>=0A> =0A> As some of you know, part of my Piet build program is learning to fly.- An opportunity arose and I started learning to fly under part 1 41 with a local community college.- =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Pilot training in a Cessna 172=0A> =0A> I had two more flying lessons this week.- My origi nal feeling of being overwhelmed has been replaced with frustration.- It takes me a few hours after each lesson to think about what happened and why .- I'm getting upset at myself for not getting everything quickly.- I t hink we all hope when we start something like this that we are going to be "naturals" and it will come to us quickly.- My instructor tells me I'm do ing fine but I have my doubts.=0A> =0A> The bad stuff:=0A> =0A> 1. Although my taxiing has improved I still over-steer and use brakes for steering too often.=0A> 2. The throttle control is still foreign to me and sometimes I push instead of pull and vice-versa.=0A> 3. I don't use enough rudder and m y instructor wants me to get used to this as he knows I will be flying a Pi etenpol some day.=0A> 4. My instructor covers up important gauges like the airspeed indicator on take off as he wants me to "feel"- when the plane i s ready to fly.- I feel nothing.=0A> 5. My transition and entry into the traffic pattern stinks as I seem to be very busy watching altitude, speed, flaps, traffic and everything else my instructor is saying in my headset. =0A> 6. My landings suck.- I bounced it yesterday and missed the centerli ne.=0A> =0A> The good stuff:=0A> =0A> 1. Instructor says I'm fine.=0A> 2. F lying does not scare me or am I nervous when in the plane.=0A> 3. He truste d me with the preflight yesterday.=0A> 4. If pushed I believe I could do ev erything but land.- (He's says I could land if he passed out and we would walk away from it.)- =0A> 5. I've only had three lessons, three landings , and logged 2.6 hours of flight instruction.=0A> =0A> John=0A> =0A> ------ --=0A> John Francis=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Read this topic online here:=0A > =0A> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393959#393959=0A> =0A> =- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle ======== ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:43:55 PM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flying Lessons Continue Jack T, Just some FYI...I plan to take my lessons in a 140 as well. Any adv ise would be appreciated.-- I did pretty good my first ever attempts ta xing around Mike Cuy's Piet.- (He may say otherwise...shocked he let me d o it.) - Perhaps in another thread or direct to me. I don't want to "high jack" John 's original post. Michael Perez Pietenpol HINT Videos Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 02:45:10 PM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Some decals went on today! You guys are killing me with the war bird pictures! LOVE the war birds!- This particular paint scheme is one of my favorite. Thanks for sharing. Michael Perez Pietenpol HINT Videos Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:47 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Covering From: Jack Hey latex guys...Am I correct in not sanding the Fastbond cement before applying the latex primer coat? Thanks! Sent from my iPad Jack Textor ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:19 PM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: fabricating music wire springs Shad, is your tail wheel going to have a cable or other provision to releas es the lock while in the cockpit, or can you only disengage it at the wheel ?- (It looks like a foot operated release only.)- - Can't answer the spring question, haven't done that yet. Michael Perez Pietenpol HINT Videos Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 02:57:41 PM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Covering Jack, I used Ecobond cement, (not sure how that compares to yours) but I ha ve not done any sanding.- I used exterior latex, no primer, just color co ats right to the fabric. Michael Perez Pietenpol HINT Videos Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:33 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Flying Lessons Continue John, Sounds like you're doing fine. Just remember that it is a process, and there will be good days when you make it look easy and days where nothing you do will be right. Don't be in a hurry to solo. You seem to have a good instructor and he will tell you when you're ready to solo. Once you get beyond the 172 you'll find that some other airplanes (such as a Pietenpol) have a lot more "feel" involved in flying them. A Cessna 172 is a nice airplane but it doesn't register very high in the "feel" department. As Jerry said put a little backpressure on the yoke during takeoff and it will let you know when the nose wheel is ready to lift off the runway. Just enjoy the process, and remember - we're all student pilots because there's always something new to learn in flying. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Francis Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 10:54 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Flying Lessons Continue As some of you know, part of my Piet build program is learning to fly. An opportunity arose and I started learning to fly under part 141 with a local community college. Pilot training in a Cessna 172 I had two more flying lessons this week. My original feeling of being overwhelmed has been replaced with frustration. It takes me a few hours after each lesson to think about what happened and why. I'm getting upset at myself for not getting everything quickly. I think we all hope when we start something like this that we are going to be "naturals" and it will come to us quickly. My instructor tells me I'm doing fine but I have my doubts. The bad stuff: 1. Although my taxiing has improved I still over-steer and use brakes for steering too often. 2. The throttle control is still foreign to me and sometimes I push instead of pull and vice-versa. 3. I don't use enough rudder and my instructor wants me to get used to this as he knows I will be flying a Pietenpol some day. 4. My instructor covers up important gauges like the airspeed indicator on take off as he wants me to "feel" when the plane is ready to fly. I feel nothing. 5. My transition and entry into the traffic pattern stinks as I seem to be very busy watching altitude, speed, flaps, traffic and everything else my instructor is saying in my headset. 6. My landings suck. I bounced it yesterday and missed the centerline. The good stuff: 1. Instructor says I'm fine. 2. Flying does not scare me or am I nervous when in the plane. 3. He trusted me with the preflight yesterday. 4. If pushed I believe I could do everything but land. (He's says I could land if he passed out and we would walk away from it.) 5. I've only had three lessons, three landings, and logged 2.6 hours of flight instruction. John -------- John Francis Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393959#393959 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 03:48:30 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Some decals went on today! From: "TriScout" I thought about closing up the front hole and mounting my dummy machine guns for the full effect (during cold months). I will never quite feel like I'm part of the "warbird community" until I get a set of those decals on the wings... Larry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394003#394003 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dummy_1_179.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dummy2_191.jpg ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 03:48:58 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Covering I didn't do any sanding until after the 2nd coat of primer, then no more sanding at all. Gary Boothe NX308MB -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 2:47 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Covering Hey latex guys...Am I correct in not sanding the Fastbond cement before applying the latex primer coat? Thanks! Sent from my iPad Jack Textor ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 04:02:35 PM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Some decals went on today! Larry, did those guns come from Arizona Model Aircrafters?!- WAAAY cool i n my book!- If I-had your plane with that paint scheme, both guns would be on it. I'm just sayin... Michael Perez Pietenpol HINT Videos Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 04:09:15 PM PST US From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB" Subject: Re: RE: Pietenpol-List: Flying Lessons Continue John, Ditto what everyone else has said. and now for some miscelanneious advice: Your landings suck because your instructor is not teaching you to land yet! He is teaching your straight and level, climbs, descents, turns and many other things that will be put togather to teach you to land. The only reason you have done 3 landings is because the plane had to land at the end of the lesson. Your instructor is doing it right and you are OK! As long as you enjoy your flight training overall, you will love flying. You will have some plateaus where you don't feel like you are progressing. Some days you will be discouraged, But remember you are doing something most people don't even consider possible. A bad day flying is better than a good day at work! (unless you bend a plane.) On the rudder. At least your instructor talks to you. My Aeronca Champ tailwheel instructor rolled up a sectional and would hit me on the head and scream "step on the ball" I still don't feel it in the seat of my pants the way he did.) When I took a sailplane flight the instructor complemented my use of rudders. Regarding being overwhelmed in the traffic pattern. Your instructor is right look at everything. But remember you can't do 5 things at once, you only have to do two things at a time. 1. fly the plane, 2 any one other thing (first watch altitude, then look outside, then glance at airspeed, then look outside, remember you only hit the flaps 2 or three times at specific places, then look outside, you are looking for traffic while you are looking outside. Your instructor is making sure that you don't get fixated on any one thing. IE looking outside for traffic and letting airspeed deteriorate or fixing on the airspeed indicator and swapping paint with anouther plane,...... When You feel like it is too much too fast. Ask your instructor if y'all can just go to the practice area and fly around. maybe redo some of the earlier flight lesson info. just a little confidence building time. However, you do want your instructor to push you to the next level. Don't try to push the controls around to make the plane do what you want. Put pressure the way you want the plane to go. then adjust the pressure to get what you want. If you walk away from the landing you will get better. Later on you will learn how to lie. "Boy that was a smooth landing, now everyone get ready for the speed bump!" Blue Skies, Steve D ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 04:28:22 PM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: fabricating music wire springs No it will have a cable to a lever in the cockpit.- I havent got the cabl e clamped in yet so I am leaving the arm long untill I find were to trim it off.. - Shad --- On Sun, 2/10/13, Michael Perez wrote: From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: fabricating music wire springs Shad, is your tail wheel going to have a cable or other provision to releas es the lock while in the cockpit, or can you only disengage it at the wheel ?- (It looks like a foot operated release only.)- - Can't answer the spring question, haven't done that yet. Michael Perez Pietenpol HINT Videos Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:07 PM PST US From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flying Lessons Continue Michael, When you switch to the Piet, don't let switching from a yoke to a stick rattle you. also you will be switching from left hand on the yoke to right hand on the stick. Don't really think about it, just do it. Seriously. you don't need to overthink it. Blue Skies, Steve D. ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flying Lessons Continue > Jack T, Just some FYI...I plan to take my lessons in a 140 as > well. Any advise would be appreciated. I did pretty good my > first ever attempts taxing around Mike Cuy's Piet. (He may say > otherwise...shocked he let me do it.) > > Perhaps in another thread or direct to me. I don't want to "high > jack" John's original post. > > Michael Perez > Pietenpol HINT Videos > Karetaker Aero > www.karetakeraero.com > ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 04:57:52 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flying Lessons Continue From: "jarheadpilot82" John, Congratulations on your initial flights. I guarantee that if you were below the norm (what the average student pilot was doing at that phase), you would be having different conversations with your CFI. Enjoy the journey. Take it one step at a time, and celebrate the small victories. This is an economic issue, but fly as often as you can afford. It will make the learning easier and the relearning (reinventing the wheel, I call it) less. We should not take the place of your CFI, but if I can help, let me know, and I am sure the other pilots (especially CFIs) on this forum feel the same way. Continue to share with all of us. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394010#394010 ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:29 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flying Lessons Continue From: Jack Michael the 140 is a fantastic trainer. You want to stay off the brakes espe cially if it does not have wheel extenders. Like others have commented stay l ight on the hands and feet, feel the airplane. Your instructor will have man y more thoughts to help you. To be honest I'm thinking about mounting my thr ottle on the right side of the cockpit, I'm to old to learn to fly with my r ight hand! Sent from my iPad Jack Textor On Feb 10, 2013, at 4:43 PM, Michael Perez wrote: > > Jack T, Just some FYI...I plan to take my lessons in a 140 as well. Any ad vise would be appreciated. I did pretty good my first ever attempts taxing around Mike Cuy's Piet. (He may say otherwise...shocked he let me do it.) > > Perhaps in another thread or direct to me. I don't want to "high jack" Joh n's original post. > > Michael Perez > Pietenpol HINT Videos > Karetaker Aero > www.karetakeraero.com > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 05:15:48 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flying Lessons Continue From: helspersew@aol.com Jack....tell me it ain't so! I think after you learn right hand stick and l eft hand throttle you'll be sold on it. To me it is much more natural than flight controls in the left hand. Of course I am right-handed, so maybe tha t makes a difference. Dan Helsper Puryear, TN -----Original Message----- From: Jack Sent: Sun, Feb 10, 2013 6:58 pm Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flying Lessons Continue Michael the 140 is a fantastic trainer. You want to stay off the brakes esp ecially if it does not have wheel extenders. Like others have commented sta y light on the hands and feet, feel the airplane. Your instructor will have many more thoughts to help you. To be honest I'm thinking about mounting m y throttle on the right side of the cockpit, I'm to old to learn to fly wit h my right hand! Sent from my iPad Jack Textor On Feb 10, 2013, at 4:43 PM, Michael Perez wrote : Jack T, Just some FYI...I plan to take my lessons in a 140 as well. Any adv ise would be appreciated. I did pretty good my first ever attempts taxing around Mike Cuy's Piet. (He may say otherwise...shocked he let me do it.) Perhaps in another thread or direct to me. I don't want to "high jack" John 's original post. Michael Perez Pietenpol HINT Videos Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ========= >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ========= cs.com ========= matronics.com/contribution ========= ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 05:15:53 PM PST US From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flying Lessons Continue Just a thought, Microsoft Flight Sim X has a Flight instruction section that follow along with a normal flight training in a 172. If not before, then after the lesson you could review it using that. The instructor is Ron Macado and he is pretty funny. The principles are there. Blue Skies, Steve D ----- Original Message ----- From: jarheadpilot82 Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flying Lessons Continue > > John, > > Congratulations on your initial flights. I guarantee that if you were below the norm (what the average student pilot was doing at that phase), you > would be having different conversations with your CFI. > > Enjoy the journey. Take it one step at a time, and celebrate the > small victories. This is an economic issue, but fly as often as > you can afford. It will make the learning easier and the > relearning (reinventing the wheel, I call it) less. > > We should not take the place of your CFI, but if I can help, let > me know, and I am sure the other pilots (especially CFIs) on this > forum feel the same way. > > Continue to share with all of us. > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry Hand > Athens, GA > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394010#394010 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 05:18:37 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Some decals went on today! From: "TriScout" No. I built them off of full scale Fokker plans, except I scaled them down to 75%, then hung them above my home theatre door. They've been there for a decade. The gun butts I made from 2x6 wood from home depot. I never did put the gun sites on them yet. They decorate the hangar for now..ler Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394013#394013 ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 05:41:18 PM PST US From: Gardiner Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flying Lessons Continue *My back up plane for my Piet is a cessna 140. If you can fly one then you can fly the other. The biggest difference is that the 140 will fly like a glider*. In that, if you don't slow down on your approach speed you will float all the way down the runway. I have done it and got scared. The Piet will drop like a rock when you pull the power and when you want to flare to land then a little power makes it just right. That is against my principles l so I am always practicing with no power. Haven't found the answer yet but still practicing. Cheers , Gardiner On 2/10/2013 7:58 PM, Jack wrote: > Michael the 140 is a fantastic trainer. You want to stay off the > brakes especially if it does not have wheel extenders. Like others > have commented stay light on the hands and feet, feel the airplane. > Your instructor will have many more thoughts to help you. To be honest > I'm thinking about mounting my throttle on the right side of the > cockpit, I'm to old to learn to fly with my right hand! > > Sent from my iPad > Jack Textor > > On Feb 10, 2013, at 4:43 PM, Michael Perez > wrote: > >> Jack T, Just some FYI...I plan to take my lessons in a 140 as well. >> Any advise would be appreciated. I did pretty good my first ever >> attempts taxing around Mike Cuy's Piet. (He may say >> otherwise...shocked he let me do it.) >> Perhaps in another thread or direct to me. I don't want to "high >> jack" John's original post. >> >> Michael Perez >> Pietenpol HINT Videos >> Karetaker Aero >> www.karetakeraero.com >> >> * >> >> ================================== >> >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> ================================== >> cs.com >> ================================== >> matronics.com/contribution >> ================================== >> >> * > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 05:52:34 PM PST US From: Gardiner Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flying Lessons Continue On 2/10/2013 8:41 PM, Gardiner wrote: > *My back up plane for my Piet is a cessna 140. If you can fly one then > you can fly the other. The biggest difference is that the 140 will fly > like a glider*. In that, if you don't slow down on your approach speed > you will float all the way down the runway. I have done it and got > scared. The Piet will drop like a rock when you pull the power and > when you want to flare to land then a little power makes it just > right. That is against my principles l so I am always practicing with > no power. Haven't found the answer yet but still practicing. Cheers , > Gardiner > > > On 2/10/2013 7:58 PM, Jack wrote: >> Michael the 140 is a fantastic trainer. You want to stay off the >> brakes especially if it does not have wheel extenders. Like others >> have commented stay light on the hands and feet, feel the airplane. >> Your instructor will have many more thoughts to help you. To be >> honest I'm thinking about mounting my throttle on the right side of >> the cockpit, I'm to old to learn to fly with my right hand! >> >> Sent from my iPad >> Jack Textor >> >> On Feb 10, 2013, at 4:43 PM, Michael Perez > > wrote: >> >>> Jack T, Just some FYI...I plan to take my lessons in a 140 as well. >>> Any advise would be appreciated. I did pretty good my first ever >>> attempts taxing around Mike Cuy's Piet. (He may say >>> otherwise...shocked he let me do it.) >>> Perhaps in another thread or direct to me. I don't want to "high >>> jack" John's original post. >>> >>> Michael Perez >>> Pietenpol HINT Videos >>> Karetaker Aero >>> www.karetakeraero.com >>> >>> *I signed name as Gardiner but you may otherwise see me as Airlion since Lion is my first name and gardiner is my middle and Mason is my last name. cheers , Gardiner >>> >>> ================================== >>> >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >>> ================================== >>> cs.com >>> ================================== >>> matronics.com/contribution >>> ================================== >>> >>> * >> >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 06:02:44 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: fabricating music wire springs From: "Brett Phillips" Shad: As others have posted, there's no need for post-winding heat treatment as long as you started with music wire, piano wire, or some other spring tempered wire. That step has already been done when the wire was tempered at the factory. What you have looks pretty good from the pictures. Brett Phillips -------- PLEASE DO NOT ARCHIVE! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394020#394020 ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 06:48:43 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flying Lessons Continue From: "John Francis" Thanks to all for the encouragement, and advice, I needed it. I think I can up my game a little to in preparing more for the next lesson. Part 141 requires an agenda and details of each lesson. I need to study what is going to be presented to me next and be prepared. During the next flight I know that I will be "Introduced" to: Turns to Headings Climbing and Descending Turns Steep Turns Emergency Approach and Landing (simulated) Systems and Equipment Malfunctions Wake Turbulence Avoidance I will review: National Airspace System Crosswind Taxi Radio communications Maneuvering During Slow Flight Power Off Stalls (imminent) Power On Stalls (imminent) Normal Approach and Landing Go-Around/Rejected Landing Collision Avoidance Thanks to all. -------- John Francis Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394022#394022 ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:40 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flying Lessons Continue From: "M. Zeke Zechini" I am left-handed and it still seems natural. Yoke-controlled airplanes came e asy...but they just ain't as fun. It is a time/experience/muscle memory thin g? Sent from my iPad On Feb 10, 2013, at 8:15 PM, helspersew@aol.com wrote: > Jack....tell me it ain't so! I think after you learn right hand stick and l eft hand throttle you'll be sold on it. To me it is much more natural than f light controls in the left hand. Of course I am right-handed, so maybe that m akes a difference. > > Dan Helsper > Puryear, TN > -----Original Message----- > From: Jack > To: pietenpol-list > Sent: Sun, Feb 10, 2013 6:58 pm > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flying Lessons Continue > > Michael the 140 is a fantastic trainer. You want to stay off the brakes es pecially if it does not have wheel extenders. Like others have commented sta y light on the hands and feet, feel the airplane. Your instructor will have m any more thoughts to help you. To be honest I'm thinking about mounting my t hrottle on the right side of the cockpit, I'm to old to learn to fly with my right hand! > > Sent from my iPad > Jack Textor > > On Feb 10, 2013, at 4:43 PM, Michael Perez wrot e: > >> >> Jack T, Just some FYI...I plan to take my lessons in a 140 as well. Any a dvise would be appreciated. I did pretty good my first ever attempts taxin g around Mike Cuy's Piet. (He may say otherwise...shocked he let me do it.) >> >> Perhaps in another thread or direct to me. I don't want to "high jack" Jo hn's original post. >> >> Michael Perez >> Pietenpol HINT Videos >> Karetaker Aero >> www.karetakeraero.com >> >> >> >> ========= >> >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> ========= >> cs.com >> ========= >> matronics.com/contribution >> ========= >> > > > " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 10:58:45 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: OT... my farher's passing..... From: "taildrags" Jake; My father lived into his 80s, but the last 10 or so years were under the dark cloud of Alzheimer's, so it was all over for Dad for a long time before he actually left this world. I read your Dad's obituary and it sounds like our fathers led somewhat similar lives. My Dad loved hunting and fishing, and it was his stories and photos from Alaska that always had me hankering to go up there sometime. He hunted caribou, mountain goats, Dall sheep, geese, chukars... and fished for everything that swam up there. I came quite close one year... had all the maps, charts, and information on staying in a Forest Service cabin in the wild, up there. I planned on flying into Alaska in the Super Cub that I was renting here in Oregon at the time. It never happened, but dreaming and planning were enough, I guess. It was only when I was in my late 20s that I found out that my Dad had been a student pilot, but it was much earlier than that when I became aware that his best friend and business partner had been killed when he flew his light plane into a thunderstorm one summer evening. It didn't make an impact on me then, but I realize now that it's the reason why Dad never pursued his private pilot's license. That didn't keep him from introducing me to aviation, though. I got my very first airplane ride in the right seat of a Luscombe, owned and piloted by Wally Carson... my dad's friend. Dad wanted me to experience what he had discovered, about seeing things from the air, about flying. I will never forget that flight, as I watched the ground melt away from the tires of the Luscombe and then I beheld the vast area of the south Texas brush country... the winding Rio Grande river... and my hometown of Laredo, Texas... all from a platform that I never knew existed. The feeling and the memory are as real today as they were some 50+ years ago. We had 10 years or so to let go of Dad, and it was both easier and harder that way. There are no words to make it easier, but there sure are memories that help. Hang onto those. -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394030#394030 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.