---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 04/07/13: 39 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:40 AM - Re: Re: Pulleys or "through the seat" ? (Jack Phillips) 2. 04:08 AM - Corky's update and Rib building (Timothy Willis) 3. 05:32 AM - Corky's rib building company (Douwe Blumberg) 4. 05:35 AM - elevator cable routing (Douwe Blumberg) 5. 06:10 AM - Re: Progress! (Gary Boothe) 6. 06:19 AM - Re: Re: A Pietenpol named Mr. Sam (C N Campbell) 7. 06:21 AM - Re: Pulleys or "through the seat" ? (C N Campbell) 8. 06:59 AM - Re: A Pietenpol named Mr. Sam (kevinpurtee) 9. 07:06 AM - Re: Pulleys or "through the seat" ? (kevinpurtee) 10. 07:10 AM - Re: Corky's rib building company (Isablcorky@aol.com) 11. 07:38 AM - Re: Progress! (echobravo4) 12. 07:45 AM - Re: An Inquiry (Ralph) 13. 08:26 AM - Re: Stabilizer brackets.. (Ray Krause) 14. 08:52 AM - Re: Aileron Horn Question (crusty old aviator) 15. 08:58 AM - Re: Stabilizer brackets.. (Gary Boothe) 16. 09:40 AM - Re: Pulleys or "through the seat" ? (Mark Roberts) 17. 09:43 AM - Re: Progress! (Mark Roberts) 18. 09:50 AM - Re: Re: Pulleys or "through the seat" ? (Ken Bickers) 19. 10:46 AM - Re: An Inquiry (Isablcorky@aol.com) 20. 11:28 AM - Re: An Inquiry (Dick N) 21. 11:42 AM - Re: A Pietenpol named Mr. Sam (Fun2av8) 22. 11:55 AM - Re: Re: A Pietenpol named Mr. Sam (Gary Boothe) 23. 12:34 PM - Do I need to sheet this with plywood? (Mark Roberts) 24. 12:50 PM - Re: Stabilizer brackets.. (Ray Krause) 25. 12:56 PM - Re: Do I need to sheet this with plywood? (Gary Boothe) 26. 02:23 PM - Re: Re: A Pietenpol named Mr. Sam (Jim Boyer) 27. 02:27 PM - Re: Re: A Pietenpol named Mr. Sam (Jim Boyer) 28. 02:31 PM - Re: An Inquiry (Jim Boyer) 29. 02:33 PM - Re: Re: Aileron Horn Question (Jim Boyer) 30. 03:01 PM - Re: Do I need to sheet this with plywood? (helspersew@aol.com) 31. 03:44 PM - Aluminum Bump (Gary Boothe) 32. 03:47 PM - Re: Do I need to sheet this with plywood? (Mark Roberts) 33. 04:11 PM - Re: Aluminum Bump (Jim Boyer) 34. 04:19 PM - Re: Do I need to sheet this with plywood? (Jack Phillips) 35. 05:30 PM - Straight Axel advise (CraigAho) 36. 05:31 PM - Re: Straight Axel advise (CraigAho) 37. 08:31 PM - Re: Corky's rib building company (kmercer) 38. 09:49 PM - Re: Aluminum Bump (Ray Krause) 39. 10:23 PM - Re: Aluminum Bump (Mark Roberts) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:40:54 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pulleys or "through the seat" ? I used pulleys. Sawing through the cross-member with a cable just didn't seem like a good way to go. You can see the elevator cable pulley in the foreground of the picture below. You can also see the pulleys I used for the rudder cables as well as the trim system: There's a rule of thumb in the Bingelis books about any change in direction of a cable more than X degrees should use a pulley, but my books are packed away at the moment and I don't remember what the angle is. Look it up in your Bingelis books. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Roberts Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 2:03 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pulleys or "through the seat" ? Thinking the same thing Gary... But I am trying to convince myself that I don't need to spend 35 more bucks for a plane that will only cost me 8000 to build... Doap! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398017#398017 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:08:57 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Corky's update and Rib building From: Timothy Willis Corky, I am sorry to hear of Isabelle's current condition but delighted that you are still raring to go and wanting to build Pietenpols. For the Piet community, I am also a positive reference. I bought Corky's second Piet project. I have not finished the project, as my wife and I are both battling health problems. Building will likely not continue unless conditions materially change. However I can attest to Corky's workmanship and especially to the quality of his ribs. He used T-88, individualized gussets and little brass nails to hold the gussets. Lots of detail there, and not a single glitch. Moreover a buyer may well have opportunities to interact with Corky, a treat in itself, as he is an experienced and colorful southern officer and gentleman. Regards to Corky and the board, Tim Willis Tim in central TX ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:32:17 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Corky's rib building company Hey Corky, I'll get you started! I'll buy a set from you. Don't need them now, but I'd like to donate them or keep 'em around to help someone out one day. Tell me what you want to charge, and let's get going. Douwe douweblumberg@earthlink.net 805 573 3564 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:03 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: elevator cable routing Hey Mark, Great progress!! Technically, according to uncle Tony (Bingilis) the elevator cables deflect enough to require a pulley there. I've never heard of a problem with the original layout though; neither sawing through the wood or wear on the cables, but.. That being said.. I put two small pulleys back there, and would guess that most guys are doing that these days. Seems a simple and beneficial mod, which I can see no reason not to do. Douwe ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:37 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Progress! Nice job on the welding, Mark!! Gary Boothe NX308MB -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Roberts Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 10:59 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Progress! --> Well, dang. Almost done with all the work my current money has left. (Daughter getting married in 7 weeks, or 49 days but who's counting...). But, I have the main control system in place and all the varnish painting supply's ready. Thought I'd post a few pictures tonight. Rudder pedals, control tubes, rudder bar, control stick assembly with removable front stick (so I can pack an overnight tent/sleeping bag in front for fly-ins), and elevator pivot tube/horn assembly in place. All I need to do now is cable up the stick and see if there is any slack in my set up as some have reported. Anyway, very excited to see progress. If you have not yet started, or are just beginning, have hope! Even if it takes 10 years, progress can be made slowly and steady. I have had to wait for 6+ months to make any meaningful progress, but tonight I have seen almost the completion of the steel parts of the front controls. Welding was NOT as scary as I thought. Heck, I find I am loving it, and I was very fearful of the process (as a search of previous posts would prove). I am almost ready to plan the next plane as a steel Pober Jr. Ace, as I have those plans already! Actually, I have found that I am pretty good at gas welding. This is the real benefit of home building. New skills and discoveries. Plus, I can't believe how relaxing the whole thing is. My lovely and patient wife approves of the time I am building because she knows that while I am out in the barn, I completely STOP thinking about the stresses of life. It is, indeed, cheaper than therapy and when you are done, you have something to fly!! And Spruse and steel doesn't ask stupid questions about your childhood... :D Here's some pictures of the set up... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398016#398016 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/image_659.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/image_221.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/image_753.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/image_210.jpg ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:56 AM PST US From: "C N Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: A Pietenpol named Mr. Sam Jim, when you get to be 89 you can consider yourself an old fart! Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray Krause To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 11:47 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: A Pietenpol named Mr. Sam Jim, I bent in the same place and broke nine weeks ago, I'm mostly all healed now and I am 71! So there's hope for us old farts. Ray Krause Sent from my iPad On Apr 6, 2013, at 8:10 PM, Jim Boyer wrote: Yeah Kevin but you young farts can bend in places those of us more mature cannot. Jim 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:57 AM PST US From: "C N Campbell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pulleys or "through the seat" ? Mark, my fuse is not handy for a pic. I drilled two holes in the cross piece and added two small pulleys on the back of the seat. I still get a bit of dragging noise when I move the stick, but it seems to be free enough. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Roberts" Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 11:26 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pulleys or "through the seat" ? > > > Seeings as how we all want to make Mr. Pietenpol's airplane just "that > much better" than he designed it, I am wondering how many of you have > opted for running the 1/8" elevator cables through the seat bottom cross > brace as shown on the plans, or used pulleys as I have felt inclined to > do. I see a few pics from the guys that have used pulleys, but don't > remember seeing any where they drilled holes as shown on the plans through > the rear seat bottom cross member. > > As I am at the point of needing to run the cable, I am trying to decide if > I am going to have to wait until I can afford to buy more stuff from ACS, > or if the wood guide is "good 'nuf". I need to get the nico press stuff > and all that too... > > What are your recommendations? > > Thanks guys! > > Mark > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398007#398007 > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:03 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A Pietenpol named Mr. Sam From: "kevinpurtee" I understand your point, Jim. You built yours with a door. This gentleman is talking about retrofitting an existing fuselage. He's going to have to enjoy flying light passengers unless he wants to essentially build a new fuselage. -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee Rebuilding NX899KP Austin/San Marcos, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398036#398036 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:56 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pulleys or "through the seat" ? From: "kevinpurtee" Mark - I did it per the plans originally. On the rebuild I'll add pulleys because it seems like the right thing to do. Having said that, the per-the-plans treatment was a non-issue. I added guides that kept the cable from sawing through the structure. The cables wore the guides to a certain point and then apparently reached equilibrium - no more wear and never an impact on the structure. The cables held up fine as well. The pulleys are like the piano hinge aileron hinges. It darn sure looks like a better design, even though the per-the-plans design worked fine. (I noticed when I bought strap hinges this time that the quality of the hinges were significantly less then what I bought 15 years ago. I bought the piano hinges and will go that route.) -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee Rebuilding NX899KP Austin/San Marcos, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398038#398038 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:10:16 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corky's rib building company In a message dated 4/7/2013 7:32:50 A.M. Central Daylight Time, douweblumberg@earthlink.net writes: Hey Corky, I=99ll get you started! I=99ll buy a set from you. Don=99t need them now, but I =99d like to donate them or keep =98em around to help someone out one day. Tell me what you want to charge, and let=99s get going. Douwe _douweblumberg@earthlink.net_ (mailto:douweblumberg@earthlink.net) 805 573 3564 I was hoping to get a few encouraging responses but it is over the top. Even naming my business. Smells like Washington, D C. Hope they don't send the tax collector before I drive the first nail. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:58 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Progress! From: "echobravo4" That's very nice work Mark- On the wood and the metal -------- Earl Brown I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I intended to be. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398042#398042 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:25 AM PST US From: "Ralph" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: An Inquiry I also bought a set of ribs from Charlie Rubeck in the late 1980s. I did it to =9Cblackmail=9D myself into starting on the project. I figured if I had the $200 (at that time) tied up in ribs I would continue on with the project. I stopped in Minneapolis at a boat builders lumber yard and bought spruce for the rest of the airplane on the way home to South Dakota. It worked although I haven=99t finished the plane the wood construction in done. Charlie included a note indicating he used western cedar (he told me he bought barn siding to rip into pieces), AirAlite glue, 1410 pieces of wood and plywood (I believed him, I didn=99t count them) and 3000 staples (which he removed). The extra rib is a fine wall hanging and I used it for the pattern for the nose and tail ribs of the center section. I figured he saved me most of a winters work. I felt confident they were done right. I enjoyed many helpful conversations with Charlie in the following years. Spring has finally arrived in SD. The snow is gone. I pulled the skis off of the Chief. I hope to get back to my unheated garage and continue my Piet soon. Ralph Hurlbert ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:01 AM PST US From: Ray Krause Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer brackets.. Did you include any plywood in the laminations? I just laid up the cabanes w ith a center layer of mahogany, two layers of 1/8" plywood then a layer if V G Doug Fir on the outside. Final Outside measurements are 11/8" by 2". Of c ourse, that will be worked down in shaping. What grain orientation do you look for with hickory, any? What about main s truts? Thanks, Ray Sent from my iPad On Apr 6, 2013, at 10:32 PM, "Gary Boothe" wrote: > Hickory. 3 laminations, 1=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D thick x 2 =C3=82=C2=BC=C3=A2 =82=AC=C2=9D. > > Gary Boothe > NX308MB > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-li st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray Krause > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 8:45 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer brackets.. > > Thanks, Jim. I remember they were pretty thin (fore and aft) and looked r eally neat. I am copying Gary's (?) and trying to make them out of wood. I m ade one set and did not like them, started a new set today. Sure takes a lot of stickum to laminate them! > > Gary, hat wood did you use? > > Thanks, > > Ray Krause > > Sent from my iPad > > On Apr 6, 2013, at 8:04 PM, Jim Boyer wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > My cabane struts are steel streamline from AS&S; I am going to use the alu minium wing struts from Carlson Aircraft. I belied Dan Helsper used them on h is Piet. He had some really nice photos of how to connect them at each end; t hey are on Chris Tracy's West Coast Piet site. > > Cheers, > > Jim > > > > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:24 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aileron Horn Question From: "crusty old aviator" What material are you making your control horns of: 22 gage Cold Rolled Steel (standard sheet metal), or .025 or .032 4130 chromoly? Thanks! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398051#398051 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:58:12 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer brackets.. Ray, No plywood laminations on mine. I seriously doubt if plywood adds any strength.maybe some character. The attached picture is of my current lift struts. You can see the orientation. Also, a strength chart, that shows tensile strength, which is really what you need. Following is my favorite excerpt from an email I got from the very wise Clif Dawson, nearly 4 years ago: "Spruce has a tensile strength of 6700 lb/square inch. For the sake of argument let=99s say a strut is 1" X 3 1/2". With streamlining the area should be 2/3 of the square area, or 2.3 square inch. There are four struts or 5.2 square inches. That=99s 34840 lbs( yes I know the front ones take the majority of the load) .Dividing on the assumption of equal load on a 1200 lb AC we get 29 g! How much less if properly calculated? 25 g? 20 g? Is this adequate? There's a bolt at each end. The strength here is based on how much force required to pull a plug of wood out by the bolt. That plug has two faces, the square area of which is the width of the strut times the distance from the end to the bolt. If the strut is 1" thick and the bolt is 1" from the end then you have two faces each 1" square or two square inches. The "shear parallel to the grain" is 1120 lb per square inch. So we have a strength here of 2240 lb. Four struts so that=99s a total of 8960 lb. That's still over 7 g. If we added another such bolt we have 14 g capacity. Taking into account the higher front strut stress I'd bet we still have at least 10 g to play with. And this is for plain, solid spruce, no plywood, no laminated straps or embedded tubing or anything else to complicate matters. You can add a little more strength by using Western Hemlock or Doug Fir but not much. " Gary Boothe NX308MB From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray Krause Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 8:26 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer brackets.. Did you include any plywood in the laminations? I just laid up the cabanes with a center layer of mahogany, two layers of 1/8" plywood then a layer if VG Doug Fir on the outside. Final Outside measurements are 11/8" by 2". Of course, that will be worked down in shaping. What grain orientation do you look for with hickory, any? What about main struts? Thanks, Ray Sent from my iPad On Apr 6, 2013, at 10:32 PM, "Gary Boothe" wrote: Hickory. 3 laminations, 1=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D thick x 2 =C3=82=C2=BC=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D. Gary Boothe NX308MB From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray Krause Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 8:45 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer brackets.. Thanks, Jim. I remember they were pretty thin (fore and aft) and looked really neat. I am copying Gary's (?) and trying to make them out of wood. I made one set and did not like them, started a new set today. Sure takes a lot of stickum to laminate them! Gary, hat wood did you use? Thanks, Ray Krause Sent from my iPad On Apr 6, 2013, at 8:04 PM, Jim Boyer wrote: Hi Ray, My cabane struts are steel streamline from AS&S; I am going to use the aluminium wing struts from Carlson Aircraft. I belied Dan Helsper used them on his Piet. He had some really nice photos of how to connect them at each end; they are on Chris Tracy's West Coast Piet site. Cheers, Jim http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========= >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ========= cs.com ========= matronics.com/contribution ========= ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:40:22 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pulleys or "through the seat" ? From: "Mark Roberts" Thanks guys! Yep, sometimes it's good to trust your gut, and mine was saying "pulleys", but I was hoping to be able to keep working without having to wait to order them. But, I'll be flying this for years and pulleys will be better. Jack, I'd like to see more of your elevator trim set up. I haven't yet figured out how to do mine, and your crank assembly in the picture looks good. Do you have other pics handy without too much digging around? I hope the construction of your place in VA is going nicely! And Kevin: thanks for the heads up on the aileron hinges. I am planning to use the piano hinges too. Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398054#398054 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:43:47 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Progress! From: "Mark Roberts" Thanks guys! The welding is much easier and more fun than I had imagined! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398056#398056 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:12 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pulleys or "through the seat" ? From: Ken Bickers Mark, I compromised on this. I followed the plans for the low deflection cable that runs to the bottom of the elevator control horn, but installed a pulley for the high deflection cable that runs to the top of the elevator control horn. It hasn't flown yet, but seems to operate freely when I test it in my hangar. Cheers, Ken On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 10:39 AM, Mark Roberts wrote: > mark.rbrts1@gmail.com> > > Thanks guys! > > Yep, sometimes it's good to trust your gut, and mine was saying "pulleys", > but I was hoping to be able to keep working without having to wait to order > them. > > But, I'll be flying this for years and pulleys will be better. > > Jack, I'd like to see more of your elevator trim set up. I haven't yet > figured out how to do mine, and your crank assembly in the picture looks > good. Do you have other pics handy without too much digging around? I hope > the construction of your place in VA is going nicely! > > And Kevin: thanks for the heads up on the aileron hinges. I am planning to > use the piano hinges too. > > Mark > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398054#398054 > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:10 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: An Inquiry In a message dated 4/7/2013 9:45:41 A.M. Central Daylight Time, ralphhsd@itctel.com writes: I also bought a set of ribs from Charlie Rubeck in the late 1980s. I did it to =9Cblackmail=9D myself into starting on the project. I f igured if I had the $200 (at that time) tied up in ribs I would continue on with the project. I stopped in Minneapolis at a boat builders lumber yard and boug ht spruce for the rest of the airplane on the way home to South Dakota. It worked although I haven=99t finished the plane the wood construction in done. Charlie included a note indicating he used western cedar (he told me he bo ught barn siding to rip into pieces), AirAlite glue, 1410 pieces of wood and plywood (I believed him, I didn=99t count them) and 3000 staples (w hich he removed). The extra rib is a fine wall hanging and I used it for the patt ern for the nose and tail ribs of the center section. I figured he saved me most of a winters work. I felt confident they were done right. I enjoyed many helpful conversations with Charlie in the following years. Spring has finally arrived in SD. The snow is gone. I pulled the skis off of the Chief. I hope to get back to my unheated garage and continue m y Piet soon. Ralph Hurlbert I didn't know Mr Roebuck. Hope the spring weather will encourage you to get busy toward a finished Piet. It was such a milestone in my life even at that advanced age. I've often compared the building techniques, skills, an d applied allied arts necessary in building an aircraft to an advanced degree or higher. Keep in touch if I can help. Corky ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:28:27 AM PST US From: "Dick N" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: An Inquiry Hi Ralph Where in MPLS is the boat builders lumber yard? I havent seen it. Dick N. St. Paul, MN. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ralph To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:45 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: An Inquiry I also bought a set of ribs from Charlie Rubeck in the late 1980s. I did it to =9Cblackmail=9D myself into starting on the project. I figured if I had the $200 (at that time) tied up in ribs I would continue on with the project. I stopped in Minneapolis at a boat builders lumber yard and bought spruce for the rest of the airplane on the way home to South Dakota. It worked although I haven=99t finished the plane the wood construction in done. Charlie included a note indicating he used western cedar (he told me he bought barn siding to rip into pieces), AirAlite glue, 1410 pieces of wood and plywood (I believed him, I didn=99t count them) and 3000 staples (which he removed). The extra rib is a fine wall hanging and I used it for the pattern for the nose and tail ribs of the center section. I figured he saved me most of a winters work. I felt confident they were done right. I enjoyed many helpful conversations with Charlie in the following years. Spring has finally arrived in SD. The snow is gone. I pulled the skis off of the Chief. I hope to get back to my unheated garage and continue my Piet soon. Ralph Hurlbert ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:04 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A Pietenpol named Mr. Sam From: "Fun2av8" Wow, great responses on the door idea .... going with the general consensus .... if ain't broke .... don't fix it. I mentioned to someone yesterday that I was buying a Piet and about the door idea. He said that some Piet's were made with a hatch in the leading edge to enable people to get in easier. I've never seen a pic of such a hatch. Is there any truth to his tale? -------- Jim McWhorter N687MB (New Owner) Culpeper, VA KCJR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398073#398073 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:55:26 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: A Pietenpol named Mr. Sam Cruel and vicious rumors!! Hatch can be in the trailing edge, but only helps the pilot. Gary Boothe NX308MB -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fun2av8 Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 11:42 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A Pietenpol named Mr. Sam Wow, great responses on the door idea .... going with the general consensus .... if ain't broke .... don't fix it. I mentioned to someone yesterday that I was buying a Piet and about the door idea. He said that some Piet's were made with a hatch in the leading edge to enable people to get in easier. I've never seen a pic of such a hatch. Is there any truth to his tale? -------- Jim McWhorter N687MB (New Owner) Culpeper, VA KCJR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398073#398073 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:34:10 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Do I need to sheet this with plywood? From: "Mark Roberts" Hey Guys: Do I need to sheet this with plywood? I used balsa blocks to fill the space between the top.deck stringers as bracing. It goes back about 4" back from the face of the front of the top former/sear back. I was planning to cover this with 1/8 ply, but after looking at the final product, I am thinking it is plenty strong, but I am not sure how much abuse this part gets when sitting on it/ getting in and out/ etc. Will the final covering be enough if I cover the top with some leather like Mike Cuy? Just looking for some "been there, done that" advice. I do plan to "dimple" or feather the edges to prevent the covering from having a hard edge regardless... Thanks! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398076#398076 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/13653632089300_134.jpg ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:50:37 PM PST US From: Ray Krause Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer brackets.. Gary, Thanks so much! That really helps a lot. I printed this out as a permanent reference. Beautiful work! Ray Krause Sent from my iPad On Apr 7, 2013, at 8:57 AM, "Gary Boothe" wrote: > Ray, > > No plywood laminations on mine. I seriously doubt if plywood adds any stre ngth.maybe some character. > > The attached picture is of my current lift struts. You can see the orienta tion. Also, a strength chart, that shows tensile strength, which is really w hat you need. Following is my favorite excerpt from an email I got from the v ery wise Clif Dawson, nearly 4 years ago: > > "Spruce has a tensile strength of 6700 lb/square inch. > For the sake of argument let=99s say a strut is 1" X 3 1/2". With > streamlining the area should be 2/3 of the square area, or 2.3 square inch . There are four struts or 5.2 square inches. That=99s 34840 lbs( yes I know the front ones take the majority of the load) .Dividing on the assumpt ion of equal load on a 1200 lb AC we get 29 g! How much less if properly cal culated? 25 g? 20 g? Is this adequate? > > There's a bolt at each end. The strength here is based on how much force r equired to pull a plug of wood out by the bolt. That plug has two faces, the square area of which is the width of the strut times the distance from the e nd to the bolt. If the strut is 1" thick and the bolt is 1" from the end the n you have two faces each 1" square or two square inches. The "shear paralle l to the grain" is 1120 lb per square inch. So we have a strength here of 22 40 lb. Four struts so that=99s a total of 8960 lb. That's still over 7 g. If we added another such bolt we have 14 g capacity. Taking into account the higher front strut stress I'd bet we still have at least 10 g to play w ith. > > And this is for plain, solid spruce, no plywood, no laminated straps or em bedded tubing or anything else to complicate matters. > > You can add a little more strength by using Western Hemlock or Doug Fir bu t not much. " > > Gary Boothe > NX308MB > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-li st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray Krause > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 8:26 AM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer brackets.. > > Did you include any plywood in the laminations? I just laid up the cabanes with a center layer of mahogany, two layers of 1/8" plywood then a layer if VG Doug Fir on the outside. Final Outside measurements are 11/8" by 2". Of course, that will be worked down in shaping. > > What grain orientation do you look for with hickory, any? What about main struts? > > Thanks, > > Ray > > Sent from my iPad > > On Apr 6, 2013, at 10:32 PM, "Gary Boothe" wrote: > > Hickory. 3 laminations, 1=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D thick x 2 =C3=82=C2=BC=C3=A2 =82=AC=C2=9D. > > Gary Boothe > NX308MB > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-li st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray Krause > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 8:45 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer brackets.. > > Thanks, Jim. I remember they were pretty thin (fore and aft) and looked r eally neat. I am copying Gary's (?) and trying to make them out of wood. I m ade one set and did not like them, started a new set today. Sure takes a lot of stickum to laminate them! > > Gary, hat wood did you use? > > Thanks, > > Ray Krause > > Sent from my iPad > > On Apr 6, 2013, at 8:04 PM, Jim Boyer wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > My cabane struts are steel streamline from AS&S; I am going to use the alu minium wing struts from Carlson Aircraft. I belied Dan Helsper used them on h is Piet. He had some really nice photos of how to connect them at each end; t hey are on Chris Tracy's West Coast Piet site. > > Cheers, > > Jim > > > > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > ========================= ========= > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > ========================= ========= > cs.com > ========================= ========= > matronics.com/contribution > ========================= ========= > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:56:56 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Do I need to sheet this with plywood? I recommend plywood, either 1/8" or 1/16"...just ties it all together. Gary Boothe NX308MB -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Roberts Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 12:34 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Do I need to sheet this with plywood? --> Hey Guys: Do I need to sheet this with plywood? I used balsa blocks to fill the space between the top.deck stringers as bracing. It goes back about 4" back from the face of the front of the top former/sear back. I was planning to cover this with 1/8 ply, but after looking at the final product, I am thinking it is plenty strong, but I am not sure how much abuse this part gets when sitting on it/ getting in and out/ etc. Will the final covering be enough if I cover the top with some leather like Mike Cuy? Just looking for some "been there, done that" advice. I do plan to "dimple" or feather the edges to prevent the covering from having a hard edge regardless... Thanks! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398076#398076 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/13653632089300_134.jpg ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:23:07 PM PST US From: Jim Boyer Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: A Pietenpol named Mr. Sam Okay Chuck, I'm only 75 now so still feel like I'm young; except trying to get in the front cockpit! Cheers, Jim ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:27:14 PM PST US From: Jim Boyer Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: A Pietenpol named Mr. Sam HI Kevin, Actually I had my fuselage all built when Arlene and I got married. Arlene is the bionic women with 3 back surgeries so I wanted to be able to take he r flying with me. I added a door after the fuselage was done; took at littl e work but ot her than having to rebuild the rear seat framing wasn't reall y that hard. Hope to have my Piet done for next years Brodhead to show you. Glad to see all the good progress you are making Kevin. Cheers, Jim =C2- ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:31:24 PM PST US From: Jim Boyer Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: An Inquiry NIce update Ralph; hope to see you this summer in Brodhead and possibly in Raymond. Cheers, Jim ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:19 PM PST US From: Jim Boyer Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aileron Horn Question .032 4130 but plain old mild steel would be fine. They turn out very light and very strong. Jim ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:01:41 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Do I need to sheet this with plywood? From: helspersew@aol.com Use plywood. 1/16 is fine. Ties it all together (where did I hear this?) Dan Helsper Puryear, TN -----Original Message----- From: Gary Boothe Sent: Sun, Apr 7, 2013 2:57 pm Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Do I need to sheet this with plywood? I recommend plywood, either 1/8" or 1/16"...just ties it all together. Gary Boothe NX308MB -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Robert s Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 12:34 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Do I need to sheet this with plywood? --> Hey Guys: Do I need to sheet this with plywood? I used balsa blocks to fill the space between the top.deck stringers as bracing. It goes back about 4" back from the face of the front of the top former/sear back. I was planning to cove r this with 1/8 ply, but after looking at the final product, I am thinking it is plenty strong, but I am not sure how much abuse this part gets when sitting on it/ getting in and out/ etc. Will the final covering be enough if I cover the top with some leather like Mike Cuy? Just looking for some "been there, done that" advice. I do plan to "dimple" or feather the edges to prevent the covering from having a hard edge regardless... Thanks! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398076#398076 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/13653632089300_134.jpg ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 03:44:46 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Bump I awoke in a cold sweat last night, suddenly realizing that Dan Helsper was going to learn that my Piet came out of the factory with a fiberglass bump.he would then produce a document from the Secret Files, questioning the authenticity of my plane. This bump is necessary to hide a portion of my Corvair (A la Last Original) starter (see top of cowling). All I had on hand was some 6061 and some homemade tools.and about 3 hours. Gary Boothe NX308MB ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:47:42 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Do I need to sheet this with plywood? From: "Mark Roberts" Okie Doakie... I will make a ply skirt for it. Thanks for the advice! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398097#398097 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 04:11:03 PM PST US From: Jim Boyer Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Bump Maybe like Kim K. its pregnant and that is its baby bump? ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 04:19:56 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Do I need to sheet this with plywood? The balsa blocking is probably strong enough, although it might dent easily. I covered this area with 1/16" birch plywood, per the picture below: Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Roberts Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 3:34 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Do I need to sheet this with plywood? Hey Guys: Do I need to sheet this with plywood? I used balsa blocks to fill the space between the top.deck stringers as bracing. It goes back about 4" back from the face of the front of the top former/sear back. I was planning to cover this with 1/8 ply, but after looking at the final product, I am thinking it is plenty strong, but I am not sure how much abuse this part gets when sitting on it/ getting in and out/ etc. Will the final covering be enough if I cover the top with some leather like Mike Cuy? Just looking for some "been there, done that" advice. I do plan to "dimple" or feather the edges to prevent the covering from having a hard edge regardless... Thanks! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398076#398076 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/13653632089300_134.jpg ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 05:30:10 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Straight Axel advise From: "CraigAho" I was hoping that those who have built the anti rotation system ala Mike Cuy could advise on the Vertical tube dia. and wall thickness and also the dia. of the receiver tube and is it a close tolerance. Also the length of the tubes. I would like to purchase a new tolerance and related tubing's for my new gear. Thanks Guys for any advise. I am attaching a photo of my old gear just because I have it avail on my computer. Craig Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398106#398106 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/file14_541.jpg ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 05:31:49 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Straight Axel advise From: "CraigAho" That is Iplan to purchase a new AXEL and related tubing. [Laughing] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398108#398108 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:09 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corky's rib building company From: "kmercer" Corky, If you're looking for more business, I'm in for a set of ribs (after Douwe's, of course!)! Ken Mercer San Rafael, CA (but a native Texan) -------- Ken Mercer San Rafael, CA (KDVO) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398112#398112 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:14 PM PST US From: Ray Krause Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Bump If it's pregnant, I want its first offspring! Ray Krause Sent from my iPad On Apr 7, 2013, at 4:10 PM, Jim Boyer wrote: > Maybe like Kim K. its pregnant and that is its baby bump? > > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:50 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Bump From: "Mark Roberts" That's cool Gary! You gotta tell me how it's done, or is this in one of Uncle Tony's books too! I've got the whole set, but haven't cracked the engine ones yet... 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