---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 05/01/13: 37 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:20 AM - Wooden gear legs (Douwe Blumberg) 2. 04:23 AM - Dan's axle bending question (Douwe Blumberg) 3. 04:29 AM - dimple tape and Ace... (Douwe Blumberg) 4. 04:32 AM - Re: Emailing: piet fittings (helspersew@aol.com) 5. 05:14 AM - Re: Update from: Corky's Rib Building (nightmare) 6. 06:40 AM - Re: axle bending (CraigAho) 7. 08:42 AM - Re: Re: axle bending (Gary Boothe) 8. 08:45 AM - central Iowa Piets? (rorichts) 9. 09:09 AM - central Iowa Piets? (rorichts) 10. 09:23 AM - Re: central Iowa Piets? (Perry Rhoads) 11. 10:16 AM - Re: central Iowa Piets? (ldmill) 12. 10:28 AM - Re: central Iowa Piets? (Dennis Vetter) 13. 10:34 AM - Re: axle bending (Don Emch) 14. 10:54 AM - Re: axle bending (tools) 15. 11:18 AM - Re: central Iowa Piets? (Jerry Grogan) 16. 12:03 PM - Re: Re: axle bending (Craig Aho) 17. 12:03 PM - Re: dimple tape and Ace... (shad bell) 18. 12:39 PM - Re: axle bending (tools) 19. 12:43 PM - Re: Re: Wooden strut metal fittings - help (Jim Boyer) 20. 12:46 PM - nice looking Scout on Barnstormers (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]) 21. 01:26 PM - Re: Re: Update from: Corky's Rib Building (Isablcorky@aol.com) 22. 01:33 PM - Re: Re: axle bending (Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB) 23. 01:53 PM - Re: Update from: Corky's Rib Building (nightmare) 24. 02:10 PM - Re: central Iowa Piets? (Jack) 25. 03:28 PM - Douwe's email address (John Greenlee) 26. 06:46 PM - Your Favorite Words to Hear in a Georgia Restaurant? (jarheadpilot82) 27. 06:50 PM - Re: Your Favorite Words to Hear in a Georgia Restaurant? (John Francis) 28. 07:05 PM - Re: Your Favorite Words to Hear in a Georgia Restaurant? (jarheadpilot82) 29. 07:15 PM - Re: Your Favorite Words to Hear in a Georgia Restaurant? (John Francis) 30. 08:05 PM - Re: Your Favorite Words to Hear in a Georgia Restaurant? (dgaldrich) 31. 08:10 PM - Re: Your Favorite Words to Hear in a Georgia Restaurant? (tools) 32. 08:17 PM - Re: Update from: Corky's Rib Building (dgaldrich) 33. 08:49 PM - Re: Your Favorite Words to Hear in a Georgia Restaurant? (biplan53) 34. 10:29 PM - Re: nice looking Scout on Barnstormers (Clif Dawson) 35. 10:37 PM - Re: Wooden gear legs (Clif Dawson) 36. 11:01 PM - Official Pietenpol-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 37. 11:07 PM - Official Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:20:29 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wooden gear legs Great help guys re the wooden gear fittings! After reading that post a couple weeks ago about the broken gear leg, it seems a good thing to make it a priority that the gear legs actually touch both the fuselage longerons and eachother at the bottom, so shock isn't all taken up by the bolts. $.02 Douwe ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:23:36 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Dan's axle bending question Hey Dan, I've been wondering about the same thing. Like yours, my wheels "bow" in a touch (easier to see on large wheels). My bird is heavier than yours so I'm sure it is worse on mine. I honestly don't know the answer, but it SEEMS to me that if that axle is overstressed, the bowing would increase which would be a sign to take action. I could easily be wrong, but without a major "slam landing" I don't see the axle just giving way. So seems like we'd have warning, we just need to keep tabs on it?? That being said, I think I'm going to modify my axle this winter with internal diagonal bracing per my last post. Douwe ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:29:02 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: dimple tape and Ace... Wow, must have been totally out of it when I wrote that post yesterday. I am not getting more "simple tape" from "Ace". I'm ordering more "dimple tape from ACS" (aircraft spruce). And, even that is wrong. "dimple tape" is not longer available (unless from sign printers, I hear but have not researched it). One can buy "vortilator tape) from a number of sailplane suppliers and from Aircraft Spruce. They sell enough to do a prop for $39. It looks like "zig zag" tape and works the same as dimple tape. I hear it works, but the jury is still out until I try it. With a C-90 up front, anything I can do to save a little fuel is a good thing. I find I can still climb (one person) at 2,000 rpm and I've really been enjoying chugging around the countryside at 60kts. It's super quiet and is getting me ready to fly formation with those Fords this July!!! Douwe ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:32:57 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Emailing: piet fittings From: helspersew@aol.com Jim, If you are very lucky, you won't have to remake these fittings three times like I did. There are many subtleties with the Jenny gear wood struts. Prob ably no two ever come out the same. My suggestion would be to go through th e process of cutting/fitting the wood struts first, then make your fittings to fit what you have. The process outlined by Chris Tracy westcoastpiet.co m is the way to go. I made mine and struggled mightily, before his informat ion was available. Dan Helsper Puryear, TN -----Original Message----- From: Jim Quinn Sent: Tue, Apr 30, 2013 8:11 pm Subject: Pietenpol-List: Emailing: piet fittings Hi Bill, Here's a pic. Cut pieces on the bottom, inside and outside fittings for the wooden landing gear. My foil cut-outs are on top. I'm using plans purchased from the Pietenpol family, a one page supplement. Thanks, Jim : piet fittings ing or receiving certain types of file attachments. Check your e-mail secu ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:14:15 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Update from: Corky's Rib Building From: "nightmare" Corky: I've got doug fir ribs, and was wondering if someone in the past has engineered or tested the 3/8 width doug fir and found that they are just as strong as the 1/2 spruce? Maybe I'll break out the palm sander and save some weight. -------- Paul Donahue Started 8-3-12 do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399751#399751 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:40 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: axle bending From: "CraigAho" I'm just a simple woodworker so I probably shouldn't be trying to engineer anything but just another thought. What if You were to take a piece of white oak, ash or doug fir say rectangular and with a snug fit set it into the tube verticle to help the tube resist bending, since the axels are just over time bending or saging in the middle would that not help reinforce it.? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399757#399757 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:49 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: axle bending From: Gary Boothe Craig, My axle is 1 1/2" with just enough inside clearance to receive a solid 1" axle. Wheel bearings have been changed to fit the axle. The solid axle inserts are 18" long, each. Heavy, Yes, but they will never bend, as attested to in numerous attempts! Gary Boothe NX308MB Sent from my iPhone On May 1, 2013, at 6:40 AM, "CraigAho" wrote: > > I'm just a simple woodworker so I probably shouldn't be trying to engineer anything but just another thought. What if You were to take a piece of white oak, ash or doug fir say rectangular and with a snug fit set it into the tube verticle to help the tube resist bending, since the axels are just over time bending or saging in the middle would that not help reinforce it.? > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399757#399757 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:45:24 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: central Iowa Piets? From: "rorichts" Looking to build, any complete or projects in central Iowa? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399769#399769 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:09:45 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: central Iowa Piets? From: "rorichts" Any central iowa piets I could connect with Thanks Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399770#399770 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:24 AM PST US From: "Perry Rhoads" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: central Iowa Piets? Not central Iowa, but central Illinois. N12939 is at Litchfield,IL. (3LF). 200 statute from Blakesburg,IA. You're welcome any time. Perry Rhoads ----- Original Message ----- From: "rorichts" Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 11:09 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: central Iowa Piets? > > Any central iowa piets I could connect with > Thanks > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399770#399770 > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:16:02 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: central Iowa Piets? From: "ldmill" Yup! I actually live in Colo - right between Ames and Marshalltown. Have a GN-1 hangered in Marshalltown. Give me a yell: Lorin Miller Cell - 641-485-0840 email: lorin.miller@emerson.com GN-1 N30PP, Cont A-75 -------- Lorin Miller Waiex N81YX GN-1 N30PP Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399776#399776 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:24 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: central Iowa Piets? From: "Dennis Vetter" I'm 20 miles WNW of Fort Dodge,IA. N6636B 65 hp Cont, Piet. Where are you located? Dennis Vetter, minimax103@hotmail.com :D Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399778#399778 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/pietenpol__etlb_150.jpg ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:53 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: axle bending From: "Don Emch" Craig, I think that was fairly common back in the day on straight axle ships... to pound a piece of oak or ask into the axle tube. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399780#399780 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:54:56 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: axle bending From: "tools" Something to consider is that it would trap moisture in there (as nearly all wood has some moisture content) promoting corrosion. When I disassembled the gear on the J1 Standard, there was wood inside of the anti rotation mechanism to stiffen it up, and it was pretty corroded. My guess is that the anti rotation mechanism was added in the mid '70's. The axle isn't very open to allow circulation, and it gets doused in water regularly (even dew on the grass in the evening). When I took all the gear fittings (fuse and down by the axle) off of 2RN, there was evidence of corrosion and it's a pretty new plane, ALWAYS hangared. Even though it might take so long to cause strength problems in the metal, it probably wouldn't take long to compromise the wood itself to where it really isn't useful. Now, if it were replaced at every annual or two... If you were to to it, white oak is probably the best to use considering its strength and rot resistance. Just food for thought. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399784#399784 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:18:01 AM PST US From: "Jerry Grogan" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: central Iowa Piets? I know there are a couple of planes being built in central IA. I have one but have not worked on it for a few years. Prairie City. There are others but they man not want to be named. Jerry Grogan -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rorichts Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 11:09 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: central Iowa Piets? Any central iowa piets I could connect with Thanks Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399770#399770 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:03:07 PM PST US From: Craig Aho Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: axle bending It is nice to know that the idea has some merrit and was used back in the day so I dont have to feel embaresed. I handn't thought about the moisture aspect=2C How about Teak:). I like to use wood whenever possible being a wo odworker and my other aircraft project is an Emeraude which is another very nice wood aircraft. > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: axle bending > From: n0kkj@yahoo.com > Date: Wed=2C 1 May 2013 10:54:34 -0700 > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > > Something to consider is that it would trap moisture in there (as nearly all wood has some moisture content) promoting corrosion. When I disassembl ed the gear on the J1 Standard=2C there was wood inside of the anti rotatio n mechanism to stiffen it up=2C and it was pretty corroded. My guess is th at the anti rotation mechanism was added in the mid '70's. > > The axle isn't very open to allow circulation=2C and it gets doused in wa ter regularly (even dew on the grass in the evening). > > When I took all the gear fittings (fuse and down by the axle) off of 2RN =2C there was evidence of corrosion and it's a pretty new plane=2C ALWAYS h angared. > > Even though it might take so long to cause strength problems in the metal =2C it probably wouldn't take long to compromise the wood itself to where i t really isn't useful. Now=2C if it were replaced at every annual or two.. . > > If you were to to it=2C white oak is probably the best to use considering its strength and rot resistance. > > Just food for thought. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399784#399784 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:03:14 PM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: dimple tape and Ace... Douwe, I have a bunch of polyurethane erosion tape (used on leading eges of jet aircraft=C2-antenas etc)=C2-I got from work that was expired shelf life, and would probably work just as well as the $40 ACS stuff.=C2- Let me know and I could Mail you some or better yet meet you halfway some Satu rday for breakfast and give it to you.=C2- You could simply cut the zig z ag with pinking shears.=C2- Might need to use a little super glue to keep it tight. =C2- Let me Know, Shad --- On Wed, 5/1/13, Douwe Blumberg wrote: From: Douwe Blumberg Subject: Pietenpol-List: dimple tape and Ace... Wow, must have been totally out of it when I wrote that post yesterday.=C2 - I am not getting more =9Csimple tape=9D from =9CAce =9D I=99m ordering more =9Cdimple tape from ACS =9D (aircraft spruce). =C2- And, even that is wrong.=C2- =9Cdimple tape=9D is not longer available (unless from sign printers, I hear but have not researched it). =C2- One can buy =9Cvortilator tape) from a number of sailplane sup pliers and from Aircraft Spruce.=C2- They sell enough to do a prop for $3 9.=C2- It looks like =9Czig zag=9D tape and works the same as dimple tape. =C2- I hear it works, but the jury is still out until I try it.=C2- With a C-9 0 up front, anything I can do to save a little fuel is a good thing.=C2- I find I can still climb (one person) at 2,000 rpm and I=99ve really been enjoying chugging around the countryside at 60kts.=C2- It=99s super quiet and is getting me ready to fly formation with those Fords this July!!! =C2- Douwe ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:29 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: axle bending From: "tools" Oh ya, I think it's got great merit. I, too, started down this path as I was a woodworker. The airplane I first started researching was a GP-4, another all wood aircraft, but then found the Piet and decided that was a better first project. Teak would work as well, but white oak is nearly as rot resistant and WAAAY cheaper (as I'm sure you know). I just think it would be a good idea to put that sort of thing on a regular inspection cycle. After seeing the corrosion under the other metal fittings, I'm about to the point I think airplanes should be uncovered and redone every 10 to 15 yrs anyway. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399796#399796 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:43:21 PM PST US From: Jim Boyer Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden strut metal fittings - help HI Bill, I realized that after seeing Jim Quinn's message. Unusual that two Jim's ha d questions that sounded like the same problem; almost! =C2- Thanks for your drawing though. I went out and measured the angle I was use ing and it was more like 45 than 40; redid my drawing at 40 and the fitting s work right (except for the miter at top is wrong, but it is so close that it will only take a minute with my grinder to fix them). Got all the plywood pieces cut that go under all the wing root and lift str ut fittings so tomorrow will get them glued. Cheers, Jim B. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:46:49 PM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: nice looking Scout on Barnstormers And a few other items of possible interest. And all this talk about axels.....just build one with a thick wall and be d one with it. You'll be fine. Mine has 15 years, 450 hours and lots of firm arrivals and it hasn't bent. Talk about making more work out of work. Again, my axel is 1.5" OD and 0.188 wall thickness of 4130 and it works jus t fine. Mike C. [cid:image001.png@01CE4683.02025350] ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:26:51 PM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Update from: Corky's Rib Building In a message dated 5/1/2013 2:36:40 P.M. Central Daylight Time, pauldonahuepilot@yahoo.com writes: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "nightmare" Corky: I've got doug fir ribs, and was wondering if someone in the past has engineered or tested the 3/8 width doug fir and found that they are just as strong as the 1/2 spruce? Maybe I'll break out the palm sander and save some weight. -------- Paul Donahue Started 8-3-12 do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399751#399751 I've tried to test them, both spruce and this fine select DF. I prefer the 3/8 fir. I'm an eyeball engineer at the most. Nothing theoretical. All I can say is I flew the plane. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:33:37 PM PST US From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: axle bending UNCLASSIFIED Old Buddy Master mechanic with a lot of time working on "old Planes" has often commented that the "New fabrics" are lifetime covers and that shortcircuits the old process of getting to inspect the airframe every 10 or so years when the dope and linnen got too loose. Zippers and inspections holes help. but there is nothing like having her naked. Blue Skies, Steve D On 05/01/13, tools wrote: > > Oh ya, I think it's got great merit. I, too, started down this path as I was a woodworker. The airplane I first started researching was a GP-4, another all wood aircraft, but then found the Piet and decided that was a better first project. > > Teak would work as well, but white oak is nearly as rot resistant and WAAAY cheaper (as I'm sure you know). I just think it would be a good idea to put that sort of thing on a regular inspection cycle. > > After seeing the corrosion under the other metal fittings, I'm about to the point I think airplanes should be uncovered and redone every 10 to 15 yrs anyway. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399796#399796 > > > > > > > UNCLASSIFIED ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:53:22 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Update from: Corky's Rib Building From: "nightmare" Thanks Corky -------- Paul Donahue Started 8-3-12 do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399803#399803 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:10:28 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: central Iowa Piets? From: Jack Robert I'm in DSM, www.textors.com Sent from my iPad Jack Textor On May 1, 2013, at 10:45 AM, "rorichts" wrote: > > Looking to build, any complete or projects in central Iowa? > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399769#399769 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:28:14 PM PST US From: "John Greenlee" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Douwe's email address Douwe, I want to send you email. Can you link up with me at jmgreenlee@sbcglobal.net? Thanks! JMG ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:02 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Your Favorite Words to Hear in a Georgia Restaurant? From: "jarheadpilot82" of course, they are "Ribs are Done!" :D Just finished my last wing rib today. Well, not quite done. I have to- 1. Trim the nose of the ribs for the leading edge piece, as yet to be built. 2. Rout the gussets where they are "proud". (always loved that word when talking about building) 3. Trim the tail of the ribs to prep them for the trailing edge piece, as yet to be created. But I am at least finished with the jig. Progress! But I have one question- Tony Bingelis suggests NOT putting the ribs together on a set of short faux spars to sand them. He says it is better to trammel the wings and then sand two or three of them at a time with a long sanding board. To the builders who have completed your wings, does it really matter, as Tony suggests? Your thoughts are appreciated. P. S. On to the tail feathers! -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399816#399816 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 06:50:50 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Your Favorite Words to Hear in a Georgia Restaurant? From: "John Francis" Terry, Congrats on the ribs! What is it that you are sanding on the ribs? Are you talking about your gussets? If so a router table does a sweet job on trimming these. John -------- John Francis Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399817#399817 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:05:53 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Your Favorite Words to Hear in a Georgia Restaurant? From: "jarheadpilot82" John, I should have made it more clear. I am talking about after routing the gussets, then sanding the capstrips to even up any minor differences between the individual ribs, and in order to ensure their uniformity. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399818#399818 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 07:15:07 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Your Favorite Words to Hear in a Georgia Restaurant? From: "John Francis" I didn't sand mine at that point. When they came out of the jig they were all VERY much the same. Had I mounted them together and tried to sand them to a even a tighter tolerance, I probably would of made them worse. I did sand the sharp edges round so they would not cut the fabric when it is applied. -------- John Francis Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399819#399819 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:31 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Your Favorite Words to Hear in a Georgia Restaurant? From: "dgaldrich" Hi Terry Think about this. The ONLY place the wing will have the profile of the jig is directly on top of the rib. The rest of the span between the ribs, the airfoil will be some slightly warped version of the airfoil since the fabric isn't rigid and will always have some degree of sag. This means that somewhere between 90 and 95% of the wing will have some curve similar to but not exactly like the jig. If you were covering them in plywood a la Wittman Tailwind/Bellanca Viking, it might be worth the effort to make them exact, but for fabric, I suggest that the way they came out of the jig is close enough. Trim them up, make sure there's no sharp edges to irritate the fabric and go forth. Dave Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399822#399822 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:34 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Your Favorite Words to Hear in a Georgia Restaurant? From: "tools" Jarhead!!! 1. Congrats! 2. Sanding. Don't matter. Built HUNDREDS of model airplane wings with tons of ribs doing every method on the books to ensure uniformity (straight wings, tapered wings, eliptical wings, gang sanded, two to three ribs at a time, the whole wing at a time... ). It just doesn't matter. It'll be fine. Knocking the edges off IS important. It's VERY tedious, but will help the fabric immeasurably. 80 to 100 grit sandpaper on a wood block will do the job well for doug fir, cedar, poplar or spruce. Go for a just noticeable round over. 3. C'mon... you know I know better than that, ribs are done in GA whatev... Normal "pros" might think Kansas City, Memphis. We both know the saying is best reserved for Dinosaur's, in upper New York. Just sayin'. 4. Congrats again! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399823#399823 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:22 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Update from: Corky's Rib Building From: "dgaldrich" For What It's Worth department... Aeronca Chiefs use 1/4 x 1/4 sitka for their ribs. I would think 3/8 doug fir would be up to the job in the Piet. The 1/4 x 1/2 per plans is probably a LOT of overkill, sort of like the aft end of the fuselage. Dave Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399824#399824 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:42 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Your Favorite Words to Hear in a Georgia Restaurant? From: "biplan53" Way to go!!! Sounds like your on a roll. Don't slack up. Mike -------- Building steel fuselage aircamper. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399825#399825 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 10:29:46 PM PST US From: "Clif Dawson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: nice looking Scout on Barnstormers Right! The axle, though a round tube, is a beam, just like the spars are. Look at the one inch routed spar. The outer "edges" are the full one inch width but the center area is only 1/2" thick. The question then is "How does this work?".The answer is that in a beam the bending strength is mostly in that very small area at the edges. The center's main function, and in many cases only function, is to hold those two outer bits in place, simply a seperator. It's a little more complicated in a true space frame application of joined triangles, and somewhat stronger. This is what Douwe will be attempting. In the drawing below I have illustrated three types of beam.The two outer ones show tension/compression caps clearly. Because of the uniform circular homogenious cross section of the tube the "cap" / web concept is not so evident.But it's there. Unfortunately, with a tube, increasing the "cap" crossection automaticaly comes with the penalty of doing the same with the webs. What all this means is that by stuffing a chunk of wood down there is really adding more web without much benefit of cap. Another thingis that just because one wood is harder and heavier than another does not translate into strength. The compression strength of Spruce is 4780 lb/inch=B2 but the much heavier Oak is 4760 lb/inch=B2. Clif The Monkey Wrench. :-) I prefer drawing to talking. Drawing is faster and leaves less room for lies. LeCorbusier And all this talk about axels...just build one with a thick wall and be done with it. You'll be fine. Mine has 15 years, 450 hours and lots of firm arrivals and it hasn't bent. Talk about making more work out of work. Again, my axel is 1.5" OD and 0.188 wall thickness of 4130 and it works just fine. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 10:37:16 PM PST US From: "Clif Dawson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wooden gear legs Absolutely!! The more touching the better. :-) Clif After reading that post a couple weeks ago about the broken gear leg, it seems a good thing to make it a priority that the gear legs actually touch both the fuselage longerons and eachother at the bottom, so shock isn't all taken up by the bolts. $.02 Douwe ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:39 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Pietenpol-List: Official Pietenpol-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the Pietenpol-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete Pietenpol-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Pietenpol-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ] This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm ************************************************************ ******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ******* ************************************************************ PLEASE READ. This document contains Pietenpol-List policies and information for new and old subscribers. Understanding the Pietenpol-List policies will minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the Pietenpol-List running smoothly for all of us. ****************************************** *** Quick Start Guide to List Features *** ****************************************** There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List **************************************** *** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe *** **************************************** Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information. The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed. You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request. The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post until you receive the second conformation email message. ***************************** *** How to Post a Message *** ***************************** Send an email message to: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed to the List. ***************************************************** *** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post *** ***************************************************** When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor. If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that gets posted to the Lists. Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List: smith@machine.domain.com smith@domain.com Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to the List. ************************************** *** Enclosure Support on the Lists *** ************************************** Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the content of enclosures. These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics Lists: 1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists. 2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists. 3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site. 4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives. 5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature. 6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed: bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk. 7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down the process of posting the message !! Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists. 1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post 30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these folks and the rest of us, for that matter. 2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000 pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less. Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it! http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx Look for the link "Image Resizer" 3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother. And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even questionable. !! 4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and BE COURTEOUS! Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server for long time viewing and availability. ******************* *** Digest Mode *** ******************* Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started. This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:" and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting of a line of underscores. Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list. To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form described above, and just select the Digest version of the List. http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable. Now some caveats: * Messages sent to "pietenpol-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the digest List. * If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of the day. * If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please *do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*. **************************** *** List Digest Browser *** **************************** An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found at the following location: http://www.matronics.com/digest ***************************************** *** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag *** ***************************************** At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the message: do not archive Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List email distribution as normal. ********************************************** ***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes ***** ********************************************** Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving messages from the Pietenpol-List, go to the following Web page, and look for your email address and a possible reason for your removal. The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the Lists you will find record of it at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice. ******************************* *** List Member Information *** ******************************* If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and paper mail address in the following format: smith@somehost.com Joe Smith 123 Airport Lane Tower, CA 91234-1234 098-765-1234 w 123-456-7890 h Please forward this information to the following email address: requests@matronics.com I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the Pietenpol-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List Browser Interface in view-mode. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/pietenpol-list ******************************************* *** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface *** ******************************************* A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Pietenpol-List content. content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Pietenpol-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * Pietenpol-List.FAQ - Latest version of the Pietenpol-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the Pietenpol-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Pietenpol ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Pietenpol-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Pietenpol-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Pietenpol-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Pietenpol-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 11:07:32 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Pietenpol-List: Official Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Pietenpol-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Pietenpol-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Pietenpol-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Pietenpol-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Pietenpol-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Pietenpol-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.